ABS Death Sentence?

But there is definitely the other side of the coin. In June of 1995,
Delmas Maxwell Johnson of the Department of Transportation’s National
Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) reported the finding
that, with passenger cars, there were actually significant increases
in fatal rollover crashes in vehicles with ABS. E. Hertz, also with
NHTSA, likewise noted that passenger cars with ABS were "more likely
to experience fatal rollovers." Johnson, in his article, "Analysis of
the Crash Experience of Vehicles Equipped with Antilock Braking
Systems (ABS)", observed at the time: "...NHTSA estimates that there
has been little or no net crash reduction with ABS, to date."

[url]http://www.brennanlaw.com/lemonlaw/absjury.htm[/url]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'll continue to struggle without ABS....thanks...

--

Scott in Florida

"Scott in Florida" <MoveOn@outa.here> wrote in message
news:p7rh02d8jgjofih7rqupk4hmo6nhq4c2ju@4ax.com...[color=blue]
> But there is definitely the other side of the coin. In June of 1995,
> Delmas Maxwell Johnson of the Department of Transportation's National
> Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) reported the finding
> that, with passenger cars, there were actually significant increases
> in fatal rollover crashes in vehicles with ABS. E. Hertz, also with
> NHTSA, likewise noted that passenger cars with ABS were "more likely
> to experience fatal rollovers." Johnson, in his article, "Analysis of
> the Crash Experience of Vehicles Equipped with Antilock Braking
> Systems (ABS)", observed at the time: "...NHTSA estimates that there
> has been little or no net crash reduction with ABS, to date."
>
> [url]http://www.brennanlaw.com/lemonlaw/absjury.htm[/url]
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> I'll continue to struggle without ABS....thanks...
>
> Scott in Florida[/color]

So, now comes "traction control" and "vehicle stability control."

Surely, you won't want to live without those?

The finding makes some sense, of course. A vehicle that's not slipping is
gripping and, therefore, tipping.


*** Free account sponsored by SecureIX.com ***
*** Encrypt your Internet usage with a free VPN account from [url]http://www.SecureIX.com[/url] ***

Scott in Florida wrote:[color=blue]
> But there is definitely the other side of the coin. In June of 1995,
> Delmas Maxwell Johnson of the Department of Transportation's National
> Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) reported the finding
> that, with passenger cars, there were actually significant increases
> in fatal rollover crashes in vehicles with ABS. E. Hertz, also with
> NHTSA, likewise noted that passenger cars with ABS were "more likely
> to experience fatal rollovers." Johnson, in his article, "Analysis of
> the Crash Experience of Vehicles Equipped with Antilock Braking
> Systems (ABS)", observed at the time: "...NHTSA estimates that there
> has been little or no net crash reduction with ABS, to date."
>
> [url]http://www.brennanlaw.com/lemonlaw/absjury.htm[/url][/color]

It's not 1995 anymore.
[color=blue]
> I'll continue to struggle without ABS....thanks...[/color]

I'm surprised you use brakes at all.

On Sat, 4 Mar 2006 00:21:17 -0500, "FanJet" <FanJet27@hotmail.com>
wrote:
[color=blue][color=green]
>> I'll continue to struggle without ABS....thanks...[/color]
>
>I'm surprised you use brakes at all.[/color]

Actually, I don't use them very much.

So far I've got 125,000 on the front pads on my '92 Corolla.

--

Scott in Florida

In article <0q3j025v6q2sbmgdkdgqmtg28lg0kuuo3s@4ax.com>,
Scott in Florida <MoveOn@outa.here> wrote:
[color=blue]
> On Sat, 4 Mar 2006 00:21:17 -0500, "FanJet" <FanJet27@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>[color=green][color=darkred]
> >> I'll continue to struggle without ABS....thanks...[/color]
> >
> >I'm surprised you use brakes at all.[/color]
>
> Actually, I don't use them very much.
>
> So far I've got 125,000 on the front pads on my '92 Corolla.[/color]

I wonder how the brake pads will hold up in the hybrid cars. I don't
suppose there is much engine braking going on.
--
"Welcome to President Clinton, Mrs. Clinton, and my fellow astronauts."

Al Gore

On Sat, 04 Mar 2006 14:26:50 GMT, The BeNevolent dbu
<relaxa.n.d@smeltherose.comm> wrote:
[color=blue]
>In article <0q3j025v6q2sbmgdkdgqmtg28lg0kuuo3s@4ax.com>,
> Scott in Florida <MoveOn@outa.here> wrote:
>[color=green]
>> On Sat, 4 Mar 2006 00:21:17 -0500, "FanJet" <FanJet27@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>[color=darkred]
>> >> I'll continue to struggle without ABS....thanks...
>> >
>> >I'm surprised you use brakes at all.[/color]
>>
>> Actually, I don't use them very much.
>>
>> So far I've got 125,000 on the front pads on my '92 Corolla.[/color]
>
>I wonder how the brake pads will hold up in the hybrid cars. I don't
>suppose there is much engine braking going on.[/color]

I would suspect it would really depend on the driver....

Since most Prius owners are geeks....and you generate power by letting
the engine brake (as I understand it), I would bet they learn to drive
correctly and let the engine do a lot of braking.

--

Scott in Florida

Three times my (rear) ABS has assisted me in making a safe stops the most
memorable being in Phoenix freeway traffic with a slide-in camper. The pedal
sank to the floor and we stopped in time to prevent a accident. Those are
the only three times my abs have even been activated in 12 years of owning
this truck.
After working on aircraft with ABS for years, and seeing how the braking
distance changes I'll keep it.
I was disappointed that ABS wasn't an on our new Camry.
I think this issue is like guns, you don't hear of the things they
prevented, only what they caused (thanks to lawyers)


--
Stephen W. Hansen
ASE Certified Master Automobile Technician
ASE Automobile Advanced Engine Performance
ASE Undercar Specialist

[url]http://autorepair.about.com/cs/troubleshooting/l/bl_obd_main.htm[/url]
[url]http://www.troublecodes.net/technical/[/url]


"Scott in Florida" <MoveOn@outa.here> wrote in message
news:p7rh02d8jgjofih7rqupk4hmo6nhq4c2ju@4ax.com...[color=blue]
> But there is definitely the other side of the coin. In June of 1995,
> Delmas Maxwell Johnson of the Department of Transportation's National
> Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) reported the finding
> that, with passenger cars, there were actually significant increases
> in fatal rollover crashes in vehicles with ABS. E. Hertz, also with
> NHTSA, likewise noted that passenger cars with ABS were "more likely
> to experience fatal rollovers." Johnson, in his article, "Analysis of
> the Crash Experience of Vehicles Equipped with Antilock Braking
> Systems (ABS)", observed at the time: "...NHTSA estimates that there
> has been little or no net crash reduction with ABS, to date."
>
> [url]http://www.brennanlaw.com/lemonlaw/absjury.htm[/url]
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> I'll continue to struggle without ABS....thanks...
>
> --
>
> Scott in Florida[/color]

In article <b39j02tilhf5754l0ous2fslovlomjp7ks@4ax.com>
[email]MoveOn@outa.here[/email] "Scott in Florida" writes:
[color=blue]
> Since most Prius owners are geeks....and you generate power by
> letting the engine brake (as I understand it), I would bet they
> learn to drive correctly and let the engine do a lot of
> braking.[/color]

Excuse this geek while he adjusts his labcoat, bow tie and horn-
rimmed glasses. *koff* *hrm* *ahem* Ladies 'n' gents...

I've posted on this before. Here's the simple version (boiled
down from many pages of Toyota technical discussion and complex
functional diagrams): when you tread on the brake in a Prius, it
calculates, from the way you did it (how much and how suddenly),
what braking to apply. As much as possible is provided through
regenerative braking (which at speed can be surprisingly large);
the rest is provided by a conventional hydraulic brake system.

AIUI, the system is remarkably tolerant of, well, inept driving.
You can see there is a built-in dual-system safety margin. But
IMHO the main kindness a driver can do any braking system is to
drive in a way that is unlikely(NB) to lead to savage braking.
--
Andrew Stephenson

FWIW I think ABS is a big help, but only if 1) there is a switch to
turn it off and 2) one does not relyu on it too heavily. For those who
learned to modulate brakes properly and still drive as though ABS
didn't exist I think it's a benefit. But in a world where everyone has
it and takes it for granted it does little good. people use it as a
license to drive more stupidly.

On Sat, 04 Mar 2006 18:03:24 GMT, [email]ames@deltrak.demon.co.uk[/email] (Andrew
Stephenson) wrote:
[color=blue]
>In article <b39j02tilhf5754l0ous2fslovlomjp7ks@4ax.com>
> [email]MoveOn@outa.here[/email] "Scott in Florida" writes:
>[color=green]
>> Since most Prius owners are geeks....and you generate power by
>> letting the engine brake (as I understand it), I would bet they
>> learn to drive correctly and let the engine do a lot of
>> braking.[/color]
>
>Excuse this geek while he adjusts his labcoat, bow tie and horn-
>rimmed glasses. *koff* *hrm* *ahem* Ladies 'n' gents...[/color]

<grin>
[color=blue]
>
>I've posted on this before. Here's the simple version (boiled
>down from many pages of Toyota technical discussion and complex
>functional diagrams): when you tread on the brake in a Prius, it
>calculates, from the way you did it (how much and how suddenly),
>what braking to apply. As much as possible is provided through
>regenerative braking (which at speed can be surprisingly large);
>the rest is provided by a conventional hydraulic brake system.
>
>AIUI, the system is remarkably tolerant of, well, inept driving.
>You can see there is a built-in dual-system safety margin. But
>IMHO the main kindness a driver can do any braking system is to
>drive in a way that is unlikely(NB) to lead to savage braking.[/color]
--

Scott in Florida

Actually that is one small savings from hybrid cars since instead of normal
pads, the energy is used to charge the batteries.


"The BeNevolent dbu" <relaxa.n.d@smeltherose.comm> wrote in message
news:relaxa.n.d-23B0F3.08264204032006@news-rdr-01.rdc-kc.rr.com...[color=blue]
> In article <0q3j025v6q2sbmgdkdgqmtg28lg0kuuo3s@4ax.com>,
> Scott in Florida <MoveOn@outa.here> wrote:
>[color=green]
>> On Sat, 4 Mar 2006 00:21:17 -0500, "FanJet" <FanJet27@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>[color=darkred]
>> >> I'll continue to struggle without ABS....thanks...
>> >
>> >I'm surprised you use brakes at all.[/color]
>>
>> Actually, I don't use them very much.
>>
>> So far I've got 125,000 on the front pads on my '92 Corolla.[/color]
>
> I wonder how the brake pads will hold up in the hybrid cars. I don't
> suppose there is much engine braking going on.
> --
> "Welcome to President Clinton, Mrs. Clinton, and my fellow astronauts."
>
> Al Gore[/color]

I suspect the real problem is people don't know that they have it. They
slam on the brakes, feel a wierd vibration and hear a wierd hum, let go, and
crash.


"Bret Ludwig" <bretldwig@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1141504068.180201.37750@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...[color=blue]
> FWIW I think ABS is a big help, but only if 1) there is a switch to
> turn it off and 2) one does not relyu on it too heavily. For those who
> learned to modulate brakes properly and still drive as though ABS
> didn't exist I think it's a benefit. But in a world where everyone has
> it and takes it for granted it does little good. people use it as a
> license to drive more stupidly.
>[/color]

Art wrote:
[color=blue]
> I suspect the real problem is people don't know that they have it. They
> slam on the brakes, feel a wierd vibration and hear a wierd hum, let go, and
> crash.[/color]

I believe that most (if not all) ABS-equipped cars have an ABS light that
lights up briefly when the car is started along with the other usual lights.

To me, the biggest problem is that many people think that braking distances
are shorter with ABS.

High Tech Misfit, 3/4/2006,5:35:57 PM, wrote:
[color=blue]
> Art wrote:
>[color=green]
> > I suspect the real problem is people don't know that they have it.
> > They slam on the brakes, feel a wierd vibration and hear a wierd
> > hum, let go, and crash.[/color]
>
> I believe that most (if not all) ABS-equipped cars have an ABS light
> that lights up briefly when the car is started along with the other
> usual lights.[/color]

Do you think the average soccer mom knows what the ABS light means?
Unless it's on their cell phone somewhere they don't know its function.

--
"I have often wanted to drown my troubles, but I can't get my wife to
go swimming." ~ Jimmy Carter

badgolferman wrote:
[color=blue][color=green]
>> I believe that most (if not all) ABS-equipped cars have an ABS light
>> that lights up briefly when the car is started along with the other
>> usual lights.[/color]
>
> Do you think the average soccer mom knows what the ABS light means?
> Unless it's on their cell phone somewhere they don't know its function.[/color]

You got a point there. I was talking about people in general, although many
still don't understand the concept of a user manual.