Energy! (From another group)

"Gomer Einstein" <buzzbomb99@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:15473-4462AFF5-175@storefull-3276.bay.webtv.net...[color=blue]
> OK, start over: Why would Japan be buying ethanol to be transported
> from the Midwest U.S. instead of just buying oil / gasoline / fuel from
> somewhere closer?"
>[/color]

I think I might actually be able to answer your question here.
Gasoline in Japan costs ~$7 a gallon. They have to buy it from the same
places we do, and since they are an 'ally' they get schtupped about the same
as we do.
I guess they are more adventurous, and would rather have their fuel dollars
going to an ally than a potential enemy (that is just my guess).
Plus, I would imagine they are trying to reduce their dependance on
unrenewable fuel and run more and more things on something that will be
around a long, long time after the rotted dinosaurs have been burnt up and
are encircling the Earth in the Ozone Layer.

In other words; they're smarter than we are. They are DOING something about
the dependance on Foreign Oil rather than crying about it.

I am willing to bet the switch to Ethanol will be painful at first, but as
people (here) learn that there is money to be made from making Everclear
that more and more places will be learning to make Corn Squeezin's, and
eventually the price will be less than Fossil Fuels, as the supplies of one
increases and the supply of the other decreases.

This could have a 'rubber band' effect, though. The Japanese are pretty big
consumers of Oil. If they switch most of that demand to Ethanol, then there
will be a glut of Oil on the market. If the Chinese (currently the number
one *BUYER* of crude oil) follows suit, there will be a MAJOR glut of oil on
the market! That means, gasoline will become cheaper and cheaper, so that we
here in the US of A will continue to burn it, rather than seeing what's
happening as a Wake Up Call and following the lead of the Japanese.
By the time Oil prices rise agan, Japan will be getting most of the output
of Ethanol, and we'll be Up The Creek energy wise, scrambling to make up
lost time; in the long run, it will cost us MORE doing it LATER then it will
the Japanese doing it NOW.

Very interesting question you asked! I'm glad I read it. Otherwise I might
not have known about 60% of the plant's output going to Japan until much
later.

Now, if only I could do something with this knowledge that would benefit us
here... :)
_____________________________________________

I posted this as a response in another group. There was one thing I didn't
mention, though:
We already HAD one Wake Up Call 30 years ago, and we didn't pay attention
then, and we AREN'T paying attention NOW; we're just crying about the Gas
prices.

Too bad we aren't as smart as the Japanese.

In article <5jJ8g.4148$923.2904@trndny02> [email]Trueno@ae86.GTS[/email] "Hachiroku" writes:
[color=blue]
> [...]
>
> This could have a 'rubber band' effect, though. The Japanese
> are pretty big consumers of Oil. If they switch most of that
> demand to Ethanol, then there will be a glut of Oil on the
> market. If the Chinese (currently the number one *BUYER* of
> crude oil) follows suit, there will be a MAJOR glut of oil on
> the market! That means, gasoline will become cheaper and
> cheaper, so that we here in the US of A will continue to burn
> it, rather than seeing what's happening as a Wake Up Call and
> following the lead of the Japanese. [...][/color]

Petroleum is chock-full of useful compounds, as evidenced by how
refineries extract and sell them into production chains that have
little to do with fuel. I have heard it suggested that burning
any fraction is a criminal waste, because everything (even tarry
sump-muck) can be processed into useful products.

So the gas-guzzlers can expect market competition for crude to be
sustained, even if ethanol (and similar sythetic fuels) do become
popular. Naturally, stupid waste will remain a big consumer. :-(
--
Andrew Stephenson

On Thu, 11 May 2006 16:30:54 GMT, [email]ames@deltrak.demon.co.uk[/email] (Andrew
Stephenson) wrote:
[color=blue]
>In article <5jJ8g.4148$923.2904@trndny02> [email]Trueno@ae86.GTS[/email] "Hachiroku" writes:
>[color=green]
>> [...]
>>
>> This could have a 'rubber band' effect, though. The Japanese
>> are pretty big consumers of Oil. If they switch most of that
>> demand to Ethanol, then there will be a glut of Oil on the
>> market. If the Chinese (currently the number one *BUYER* of
>> crude oil) follows suit, there will be a MAJOR glut of oil on
>> the market! That means, gasoline will become cheaper and
>> cheaper, so that we here in the US of A will continue to burn
>> it, rather than seeing what's happening as a Wake Up Call and
>> following the lead of the Japanese. [...][/color]
>
>Petroleum is chock-full of useful compounds, as evidenced by how
>refineries extract and sell them into production chains that have
>little to do with fuel. I have heard it suggested that burning
>any fraction is a criminal waste, because everything (even tarry
>sump-muck) can be processed into useful products.
>
>So the gas-guzzlers can expect market competition for crude to be
>sustained, even if ethanol (and similar sythetic fuels) do become
>popular. Naturally, stupid waste will remain a big consumer. :-([/color]

we can't produce enough Ethanol for the entire US even if we grew no
other crop. We can never follow smaller countries in the use of
alternate fuels.

On Thu, 11 May 2006 12:48:08 -0700, doc wrote:
[color=blue]
> On Thu, 11 May 2006 16:30:54 GMT, [email]ames@deltrak.demon.co.uk[/email] (Andrew
> Stephenson) wrote:
>[color=green]
>>In article <5jJ8g.4148$923.2904@trndny02> [email]Trueno@ae86.GTS[/email] "Hachiroku" writes:
>>[color=darkred]
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> This could have a 'rubber band' effect, though. The Japanese
>>> are pretty big consumers of Oil. If they switch most of that
>>> demand to Ethanol, then there will be a glut of Oil on the
>>> market. If the Chinese (currently the number one *BUYER* of
>>> crude oil) follows suit, there will be a MAJOR glut of oil on
>>> the market! That means, gasoline will become cheaper and
>>> cheaper, so that we here in the US of A will continue to burn
>>> it, rather than seeing what's happening as a Wake Up Call and
>>> following the lead of the Japanese. [...][/color]
>>
>>Petroleum is chock-full of useful compounds, as evidenced by how
>>refineries extract and sell them into production chains that have
>>little to do with fuel. I have heard it suggested that burning
>>any fraction is a criminal waste, because everything (even tarry
>>sump-muck) can be processed into useful products.
>>
>>So the gas-guzzlers can expect market competition for crude to be
>>sustained, even if ethanol (and similar sythetic fuels) do become
>>popular. Naturally, stupid waste will remain a big consumer. :-([/color]
>
> we can't produce enough Ethanol for the entire US even if we grew no
> other crop. We can never follow smaller countries in the use of
> alternate fuels.[/color]

1. Japan has about as many people, all packed into an area the sizex of
California, Oregon and Washington.

2. We are curerently paying people *NOT* to grow crops that could be used
to make Ethanol. Jus think of the dent it would make if the Government
STOPPED pying them NOT to grow certain crops, and all the fuel-hungry car
owners paid them *TO* produce these crops?

Add to that all the other regions in the world where corn, soybeans, sugar
cane, ect can be grown...

On Thu, 11 May 2006 23:44:09 GMT, Hachiroku <Trueno@ae86.GTS> wrote:
[color=blue]
>On Thu, 11 May 2006 12:48:08 -0700, doc wrote:
>[color=green]
>> On Thu, 11 May 2006 16:30:54 GMT, [email]ames@deltrak.demon.co.uk[/email] (Andrew
>> Stephenson) wrote:
>>[color=darkred]
>>>In article <5jJ8g.4148$923.2904@trndny02> [email]Trueno@ae86.GTS[/email] "Hachiroku" writes:
>>>
>>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>> This could have a 'rubber band' effect, though. The Japanese
>>>> are pretty big consumers of Oil. If they switch most of that
>>>> demand to Ethanol, then there will be a glut of Oil on the
>>>> market. If the Chinese (currently the number one *BUYER* of
>>>> crude oil) follows suit, there will be a MAJOR glut of oil on
>>>> the market! That means, gasoline will become cheaper and
>>>> cheaper, so that we here in the US of A will continue to burn
>>>> it, rather than seeing what's happening as a Wake Up Call and
>>>> following the lead of the Japanese. [...]
>>>
>>>Petroleum is chock-full of useful compounds, as evidenced by how
>>>refineries extract and sell them into production chains that have
>>>little to do with fuel. I have heard it suggested that burning
>>>any fraction is a criminal waste, because everything (even tarry
>>>sump-muck) can be processed into useful products.
>>>
>>>So the gas-guzzlers can expect market competition for crude to be
>>>sustained, even if ethanol (and similar sythetic fuels) do become
>>>popular. Naturally, stupid waste will remain a big consumer. :-([/color]
>>
>> we can't produce enough Ethanol for the entire US even if we grew no
>> other crop. We can never follow smaller countries in the use of
>> alternate fuels.[/color]
>
>1. Japan has about as many people, all packed into an area the sizex of
>California, Oregon and Washington.
>
>2. We are curerently paying people *NOT* to grow crops that could be used
>to make Ethanol. Jus think of the dent it would make if the Government
>STOPPED pying them NOT to grow certain crops, and all the fuel-hungry car
>owners paid them *TO* produce these crops?
>
>Add to that all the other regions in the world where corn, soybeans, sugar
>cane, ect can be grown...[/color]

This would not be much more than a drop in the bucket to the US
market! You best study the effect of ethanol, you'll never sell it to
the American public.

<doc@oz.net> wrote in message
news:vnq762h6n0vqk82kc5t6o5tae0flokm2ih@4ax.com...[color=blue]
> On Thu, 11 May 2006 23:44:09 GMT, Hachiroku <Trueno@ae86.GTS> wrote:
>[color=green]
>>On Thu, 11 May 2006 12:48:08 -0700, doc wrote:
>>[color=darkred]
>>> On Thu, 11 May 2006 16:30:54 GMT, [email]ames@deltrak.demon.co.uk[/email] (Andrew
>>> Stephenson) wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <5jJ8g.4148$923.2904@trndny02> [email]Trueno@ae86.GTS[/email] "Hachiroku"
>>>>writes:
>>>>
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>
>>>>> This could have a 'rubber band' effect, though. The Japanese
>>>>> are pretty big consumers of Oil. If they switch most of that
>>>>> demand to Ethanol, then there will be a glut of Oil on the
>>>>> market. If the Chinese (currently the number one *BUYER* of
>>>>> crude oil) follows suit, there will be a MAJOR glut of oil on
>>>>> the market! That means, gasoline will become cheaper and
>>>>> cheaper, so that we here in the US of A will continue to burn
>>>>> it, rather than seeing what's happening as a Wake Up Call and
>>>>> following the lead of the Japanese. [...]
>>>>
>>>>Petroleum is chock-full of useful compounds, as evidenced by how
>>>>refineries extract and sell them into production chains that have
>>>>little to do with fuel. I have heard it suggested that burning
>>>>any fraction is a criminal waste, because everything (even tarry
>>>>sump-muck) can be processed into useful products.
>>>>
>>>>So the gas-guzzlers can expect market competition for crude to be
>>>>sustained, even if ethanol (and similar sythetic fuels) do become
>>>>popular. Naturally, stupid waste will remain a big consumer. :-(
>>>
>>> we can't produce enough Ethanol for the entire US even if we grew no
>>> other crop. We can never follow smaller countries in the use of
>>> alternate fuels.[/color]
>>
>>1. Japan has about as many people, all packed into an area the sizex of
>>California, Oregon and Washington.
>>
>>2. We are curerently paying people *NOT* to grow crops that could be used
>>to make Ethanol. Jus think of the dent it would make if the Government
>>STOPPED pying them NOT to grow certain crops, and all the fuel-hungry car
>>owners paid them *TO* produce these crops?
>>
>>Add to that all the other regions in the world where corn, soybeans, sugar
>>cane, ect can be grown...[/color]
>
> This would not be much more than a drop in the bucket to the US
> market! You best study the effect of ethanol, you'll never sell it to
> the American public.[/color]

I'm already buying it! I have been for about 4 years. The station I fill my
cars at sells a 10% ethanol mix.
Back in 1980 I had a brand new Toyota Corolla SR-5. I moved to Cow Hampshire
and there was a BP station selling Gasahol, at about 3 cents less than 91
octane for the same octane rating. I ran that car on it for 2 years before I
moved away and the Gasahol craze dried up.

Everyone kept telling me, you'll ruin your engine, you'll burn your valves,
you'll wreck the carberator, etc, etc.

I ran that car for 6 years, put 255,000 miles on it, and never had a
problem. Oh, wait: a water pump went, the E-Brake cable froze up, and I had
to put tires on it. The only other maintenence on the car was oil changes.

If it's good enough for Indy/CART, I guess I won't have a problem with it.