{OT} pledge to mexican flag in texas school

On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 12:55:55 -0400, Stuart Krivis wrote:
[color=blue]
> On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 14:52:45 GMT, Hachiroku <Trueno@ae86.gts> wrote:
>[color=green]
>>On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 10:08:18 -0400, Stuart Krivis wrote:
>>[color=darkred]
>>> On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 06:36:17 -0400, "badgolferman"
>>> <REMOVETHISbadgolferman@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Cathy F., 9/20/2006,11:15:15 PM, wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I don't think it's necessary, but OTOH knowing its words can't hurt
>>>>> anyone & enlarges one's comprehension of the world.
>>>>
>>>>How many Mexican children are holding American flags and having the
>>>>American Pledge of Allegiance recited to them at school?
>>>
>>> The article doesn't say anything about that, so this isn't really
>>> germane to a discussion of the article. :-)
>>>
>>> But I think it would be good for Mexican children to learn about the
>>> US in school, just as I think it's a good idea for US children to
>>> learn about Mexico.[/color]
>>
>>Fine. Let's save it for Civics or Geography class...
>>[/color]
>
> Maybe it _was_ part of that? It was preschool through 4th grade kids,
> and they don't tend to have separate classes for different subjects.
>
> People are just making a mountain out of a molehill. We should be
> worrying about Iran or North Korea, or France, not about something
> trivial like this.
>
> I also wish people would be more understanding about illegal aliens. I
> think it's wrong for them to be here, and they should go back to their
> countries and try to gain entry to the US legally, but we should also
> understand that they're just here seeking a better life; which is why
> all of our ancestors came here too.[/color]


I am part WOP. Do you know what WOP means?

On Ellis Island, they greeted people who had all their papers in order.
Some didn't. Most of these (but not all) were italians, who just got on da
boat, and off da boat. They were given aplacard and told to sit on that
bench over there.

The placard said W.O.P (WithOut Papers). But they STILL got processed
through the Ellis Island Immigration process, just s LOT longer than the
others.


The people we're talking about probably don't have any papers AT ALL!

On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 12:35:13 -0400, Stuart Krivis wrote:
[color=blue]
> On 21 Sep 2006 14:47:27 GMT, "badgolferman"
> <REMOVETHISbadgolferman@gmail.com> wrote:
>[color=green]
>>Stuart Krivis, 9/21/2006, 10:08:18 AM,
>><3475h2tfc1s36cj7q2n89nn3i40u4fvgok@4ax.com> wrote:
>>[color=darkred]
>>> > How many Mexican children are holding American flags and having the
>>> > American Pledge of Allegiance recited to them at school?
>>>
>>> The article doesn't say anything about that, so this isn't really
>>> germane to a discussion of the article. :-)[/color]
>>
>>“My students don’t even know the Mexican pledge,” Williams said. “In
>>the minds of my little kids here at the elementary school ... they were
>>simply holding a flag.”
>>
>>The article clearly states twice the children were holding Mexican
>>flags while other parents read the Mexican pledge to them. What if the
>>pledge had a reference to God in it? Would you still be as accepting
>>as this? Your hypocrisy is unbelievable.[/color]
>
> Ooohhhh, they were holding Mexican flags! So what?[/color]


This is the United States...
[color=blue]
>
> The Mexican pledge makes no reference to God.
>
> As it was presented, I don't have a problem with it, unless they deny
> the same rights to other ethnic or cultural groups.
>
> The problem occurs when the majority unthinkingly assumes that just
> because something is what they think or agree with, that it's then
> perfectly fine to just force it on everyone.
>
> Organized, school-sponsored prayer in the public schools is not
> something we should be doing. It's impossible to include everyone, so
> we have to deny it to everyone and let them do it at home with their
> families.
>
>
> Oh, just for your edification:
>
>
> Flag of México!
> Legacy of our heroes,
> Symbol of the unity
> of our parents
> and of our siblings,
> we promise you to be always faithful
> to the principles of liberty and justice
> that make of our Homeland,
> the independent,
> humane and generous nation,
> to which we dedicate
> our existence.[/color]

On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 12:35:13 -0400, Stuart Krivis wrote:
[color=blue]
> Flag of México!
> Legacy of our heroes,
> Symbol of the unity
> of our parents
> and of our siblings,
> we promise you to be always faithful
> to the principles of liberty and justice
> that make of our Homeland,
> the independent,
> humane and generous nation,
> to which we dedicate
> our existence.[/color]


READ THIS!

All the MORE reason NOT to be doing it in a US School!!!

Stuart Krivis wrote:[color=blue]
> Is this in public school?[/color]

Public school as in the free education that everyone gets 11-16ish yes.
And i think public school as in paid upper-class education too, though
they may have ways round it.
[color=blue]
> I would say it sounds generally like a good idea, although you have to
> be careful to make sure that you don't leave anyone out.[/color]

Yes, th main religions are catered for but if "odd" ones are found in
the class/year they are usually asked if they would like to prepare
some info for everyone to learn about, just a bit.
[color=blue]
> I think in the US there has been more of a feeling that religious
> learning is something between the student, their parents, and their
> church. It doesn't belong in the public schools or government. (We
> don't have a State Church, for instance.)[/color]

Yes, this makes sense to me - id prefer it that way to some extent
(schools are for academic learning IMO) but it does breed intolerance
and ignorance.
[color=blue]
> The people in the UK haven't always been known for tolerance, so don't
> get too high and mighty over there. :-)[/color]

Id say we are fairly tolerant, to say the least. Of course there are
groups in every direction that take exception but thats to be expected
in a tolerant society.
[color=blue]
> We _all_ have a way to go before we have tolerance, understanding, and
> acceptance of people who are different than we are.[/color]

I think the main problem is the likes of people who travel to a mostly
X religion country then try to *force* everyone in it to comply with
theirs or moan that they are not catered for properly. Ideally if we
were perfectly tolerant we would do so, but when that infringes on our
wants/beliefs people are not happy. We can never live totally in peace
- it just doesnt happen, but some tolerance eases the differences. Too
much accentuates it.

J

Stuart Krivis wrote:[color=blue]
> I wasn't disagreeing, just telling you my experience. I was surprised
> when I first heard it. I always thought Cinco de Mayo was a big
> celebration there. You learn something new every day.[/color]

Im all up for any excuse to celebrate, drink and be merry :)

On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 18:32:47 GMT, Hachiroku <Trueno@ae86.gts> wrote:
[color=blue]
>I am part WOP. Do you know what WOP means?
>
>On Ellis Island, they greeted people who had all their papers in order.
>Some didn't. Most of these (but not all) were italians, who just got on da
>boat, and off da boat. They were given aplacard and told to sit on that
>bench over there.
>
>The placard said W.O.P (WithOut Papers). But they STILL got processed
>through the Ellis Island Immigration process, just s LOT longer than the
>others.
>[/color]

Interesting. It makes sense though.

I'll probably offend somebody with this, but when I was in grade
school we thought it was funny to say:

Pirelli tires.
Dago fast. Dago slow.
When dago flat, dago wop, wop, wop!

Yeah, that was bad and silly. I bet I get fwapped. :-)

On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 18:34:05 GMT, Hachiroku <Trueno@ae86.gts> wrote:
[color=blue][color=green][color=darkred]
>>>
>>>The article clearly states twice the children were holding Mexican
>>>flags while other parents read the Mexican pledge to them. What if the
>>>pledge had a reference to God in it? Would you still be as accepting
>>>as this? Your hypocrisy is unbelievable.[/color]
>>
>> Ooohhhh, they were holding Mexican flags! So what?[/color]
>
>
>This is the United States...[/color]

So what? We can't hold other flags here? What's the big deal?

It's only in China where they shoot you if you do that. :-)

On 21 Sep 2006 11:51:30 -0700, "Coyoteboy" <coyoteboyuk@hotmail.com>
wrote:
[color=blue]
>
>Stuart Krivis wrote:[color=green]
>> I wasn't disagreeing, just telling you my experience. I was surprised
>> when I first heard it. I always thought Cinco de Mayo was a big
>> celebration there. You learn something new every day.[/color]
>
>Im all up for any excuse to celebrate, drink and be merry :)[/color]

Here's a good one. [url]http://www.sysadminday.com/[/url]

Kind of a personal fave of mine. :-)

On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 06:36:17 -0400, "badgolferman"
<REMOVETHISbadgolferman@gmail.com> wrote:
[color=blue]
>Cathy F., 9/20/2006,11:15:15 PM, wrote:
>[color=green]
>> I don't think it's necessary, but OTOH knowing its words can't hurt
>> anyone & enlarges one's comprehension of the world.[/color]
>
>How many Mexican children are holding American flags and having the
>American Pledge of Allegiance recited to them at school?[/color]

Not enough, dang it, since too many of them will probably end up
living here anyway! :-o

....

"Hachiroku" <Trueno@ae86.GTS> wrote in message
news:uovQg.6718$_k1.4725@trndny01...[color=blue]
>
> "Cathy F." <clfr@adelphiadot.net> wrote in message
> news:yYGdnfNJGY9ono_YnZ2dnUVZ_tCdnZ2d@giganews.com...[color=green]
>>
>> "badgolferman" <REMOVETHISbadgolferman@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:xn0ergina1qrtzh000@news.readfreenews.net...[color=darkred]
>>> Cathy F., 9/20/2006,7:58:25 PM, wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Stuart Krivis" <jd@mongo.krivis.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:rf83h2t3kdanaj59a7fdortocnp6t7ts5c@4ax.com...
>>>> > On 20 Sep 2006 12:45:42 GMT, "badgolferman"
>>>> ><REMOVETHISbadgolferman@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > > I guess we better get used to learning the Mexican pledge soon.
>>>> > > This guy must be a visionary who is preparing our children for
>>>> > > the new Meximerica.
>>>> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> > > ----
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > > [url]http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1704718/posts[/url]
>>>> > >
>>>> > > FREEPORT - Velasco Elementary School's principal said he has been
>>>> > > taken aback by a controversy that has arisen from his campus'
>>>> > > Mexican Independence Day celebration, and he apologizes for
>>>> > > offending parents.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > During a short school assembly Friday, several parent volunteers
>>>> > > read a pledge of allegiance to the Mexican flag.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > So learning about different cultures is a bad thing? Having a school
>>>> > activity that is relevant to 65% of the students is bad?
>>>> >
>>>> > You Bubba-licans are making much ado about nothing.
>>>>
>>>> Were they pledging their allegiance to the Mexican flag (in a USA
>>>> school), or were they merely hearing/learning what the words of the
>>>> Mexican pledge are? There's a difference.
>>>
>>> ---------------------
>>> At about 10 a.m. Friday, students and parents gathered in the gym for
>>> an assembly commemorating Diez y Seis de Septiembre, Sept. 16, when
>>> Mexico celebrates its independence from Spain. The school's bilingual
>>> classes from different grade levels performed songs, Williams said.
>>> Everyone was given a small Mexican flag and a group of six or seven
>>> parents recited the pledge from a script, Williams said. The students
>>> did not recite it, he said.
>>> ----------------------
>>>
>>> Why do elementary grade children need to know the Mexican pledge?[/color]
>>
>> I don't think it's necessary, but OTOH knowing its words can't hurt
>> anyone & enlarges one's comprehension of the world. When I teach my
>> class about different countries & their govt's & cultures (at a very
>> basic level - we're talking 3rd gr.), we see what each country's flag
>> looks like & learn what its design/symbol(s) stand(s) for. Same sort of
>> deal, IMO, considering the probable heritage of many of these kids'
>> families. Actually pledging allegiance to the Mexican flag would be a
>> different matter.
>>
>> As a sort of analogy: what if a (religious) non-Christian were to learn
>> the words of the Lord's Prayer? Would make them less ignorant of the
>> Christian religion, but wouldn't affect their own beliefs & practice of
>> their own religion.
>>[color=darkred]
>>> Shouldn't immigrants be assimilating into the American culture?[/color]
>>
>> Yes, but that's not the same thing as totally letting go of one's own
>> heritage, or being ignorant about the rest of the world.
>>
>> I[color=darkred]
>>> would think it would behoove them more to learn about the history and
>>> traditions of America rather than Mexico's.[/color]
>>
>> They will learn those, too - both at school, & as a matter of course -
>> simply via their entire environment, living in the uSA.
>>
>> Cathy
>>
>>
>> A pledge of allegiance is[color=darkred]
>>> a political and patriotic statement of one's country.[/color][/color]
>
>
> Hey, Cath, I'm all for LEARNING, but it should stop there! American kids
> can't even say the pledge to their own flag.[/color]

re: this last statement - huh?? (It's said every morning in our building,
for ex.)

Cathy
[color=blue]
>
>[/color]

"Stuart Krivis" <jd@mongo.krivis.com> wrote in message
news:3775h2h0saisbl65i58p5vr97bd85arl74@4ax.com...[color=blue]
> On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 12:16:26 GMT, "Hachiroku" <Trueno@ae86.GTS> wrote:
>[color=green]
>>
>>Hey, Cath, I'm all for LEARNING, but it should stop there! American kids
>>can't even say the pledge to their own flag.
>>[/color]
>
> Kids can say it as long as they aren't disrupting some other
> educational activity.. But the school can't make all the kids stand up
> and say it with the "under God" part as a matter of policy.[/color]

The school in general can say the pledge as a matter of policy (unwritten, I
assume - it's just done), *but* one can't *make* a person do it if they
prefer not to.

Cathy
[color=blue]
>[/color]

"Stuart Krivis" <jd@mongo.krivis.com> wrote in message
news:3775h2h0saisbl65i58p5vr97bd85arl74@4ax.com...[color=blue]
> On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 12:16:26 GMT, "Hachiroku" <Trueno@ae86.GTS> wrote:
>[color=green]
>>
>>Hey, Cath, I'm all for LEARNING, but it should stop there! American kids
>>can't even say the pledge to their own flag.
>>[/color]
>
> Kids can say it as long as they aren't disrupting some other
> educational activity.. But the school can't make all the kids stand up
> and say it with the "under God" part as a matter of policy.[/color]

BTW - it's not just the "under God" bit - it's about the pledge, in general;
if I person prefers not to say it, they don't have to. OTOH, I've been
teaching for 34 years & have yet to encounter someone in my class who
refused to say it (or whose parents forbid it).

As a side note... Personally, I'd prefer that the "under God" wasn't in it -
that the Pledge was still in its original form, but I can live w/it.

Cathy
[color=blue]
>[/color]

"sharx35" <sharx35@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fNnQg.34603$E67.20483@clgrps13...[color=blue]
>
> "Cathy F." <clfr@adelphiadot.net> wrote in message
> news:AIKdnehqRdttbIzYnZ2dnUVZ_tSdnZ2d@giganews.com...[color=green]
>>
>> "sharx35" <sharx35@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:n3mQg.29946$bf5.25365@edtnps90...[color=darkred]
>>>
>>> "Hachiroku" <Trueno@ae86.gts> wrote in message
>>> news:okkQg.5936$_k1.1482@trndny01...
>>>> On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 16:20:07 -0400, Stuart Krivis wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 20 Sep 2006 12:45:42 GMT, "badgolferman"
>>>>> <REMOVETHISbadgolferman@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>I guess we better get used to learning the Mexican pledge soon. This
>>>>>>guy must be a visionary who is preparing our children for the new
>>>>>>Meximerica.
>>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>[url]http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1704718/posts[/url]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>FREEPORT - Velasco Elementary School's principal said he has been
>>>>>>taken
>>>>>>aback by a controversy that has arisen from his campus' Mexican
>>>>>>Independence Day celebration, and he apologizes for offending parents.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>During a short school assembly Friday, several parent volunteers read
>>>>>>a
>>>>>>pledge of allegiance to the Mexican flag.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So learning about different cultures is a bad thing? Having a school
>>>>> activity that is relevant to 65% of the students is bad?
>>>>>
>>>>> You Bubba-licans are making much ado about nothing.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, what Reasoned Insanity said:
>>>>
>>>> "Having students in america swear an allegience to a foriegn flag is
>>>> bad. "
>>>>
>>>> My Grandfather came here from Germany. He didn't have a German flag. He
>>>> learned to speak English as soon as he got here. The only time us
>>>> Grandkids ever heard him say ANYTHING in German, we knew it was time to
>>>> make book! And he did that very rarely, even though he had a German
>>>> temper.
>>>>
>>>> He flew the American flag outside of his home. He left Germany, became
>>>> an
>>>> American and NEVER looked back.
>>>>
>>>> The same can be said for my Italian Grandparents on the other side of
>>>> the
>>>> family.
>>>>
>>>> They came here because they wanted to be AMERICANSD, and they BECAME
>>>> Americans.
>>>>
>>>> If you want to pledge allegance to any other flag but the American
>>>> flag,
>>>> you are MORE than welcome to do so...SOMEWHERE ELSE!!!!!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This MultiCultural BullShit has gone too far. Come to America, be
>>>> American. Simple.
>>>
>>> Canada is full of multicultural bullshit, too. It should me mandatory
>>> that one be fluent on English BEFORE become either a Canadian or an
>>> American.[/color]
>>
>> I think two different concepts are being spoken about here (above 2
>> posts), but are being confused & combined into one concept. There is
>> nothing wrong with a multicultural society . Think about it: no
>> multiculturalism = no ethnic foods, for one example. Want to forgo
>> Mexican, Indian, Italian, Lebanese, Greek, etc. food? (Nevermind no
>> Toyotas!) Lack of multiculturalism would be... boring! Heterogeneous =
>> interesting. Homogenous = boring.
>>
>> Cathy[/color]
>
> COMMON VALUES=strength. FEW shared values=discord and weakness.
>
> You naive LIEbrawls just don't get it. Nothing ever prevents anyone from
> enjoying music or food from around the world. Nothing. However, OFFICIAL
> sanction and support of NON-mainstream cultures causes havoc. You can rest
> assured that in 99% of the other countries in the world there is NO
> sanction or support of any culture save the mainstream.[/color]

Yep, conflating the two issues at hand.

Cathy
[color=blue]
>
>
>[color=green]
>>
>>[color=darkred]
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>[/color]
>>
>>[/color]
>
>[/color]

"badgolferman" <REMOVETHISbadgolferman@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:xn0erhhhmabt0sr005@news.readfreenews.net...[color=blue]
> Stuart Krivis, 9/21/2006, 12:10:42 PM,
> <53e5h2d9e3obt9j82i7frsh88r79o9qbra@4ax.com> wrote:
>[color=green]
>> Actually, from your choice of words and your reaction, I'm wondering
>> whether you're prejudiced against Mexicans yourself.[/color]
>
> I'm prejudiced against illegal immigrants. My parents came here and
> waited there turn for citizenship. Why shouldn't everyone else?
>
> --
> "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who
> are willing to work and give to those who would not." ~ Thomas Jefferson[/color]

Most of my ancestors came over in the 1850's and waited their 5 years or
however long it was then, to become citizens. Some were here prior to 1776
and became citizens because of that little thing GW did. One ancestral
line was supposedly here prior to 1607 and that branch didn't become
citizens until 1924 or so. Many worked farms they bought after many years
of saving up. Others worked in the cities. None of them expected a
handout. All of them were decent law-abiding citizens. As a matter of
fact, I have one grandparent that was deputy sherrif for a while and
de-facto juvenile officer for most of the 1930's for their tiny little
county. I'm sick and tired of the "They owes it to me" mentality. Who is
They? We have met the enemy and he is US, to quote Pogo.

Charles of Schaumburg

"badgolferman" <REMOVETHISbadgolferman@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:xn0erhjrkaetadp00c@news.readfreenews.net...[color=blue]
> Stuart Krivis, 9/21/2006, 1:36:09 PM,
> <v3i5h2pnsafhme80fuvksvjo32eu5rbq3n@4ax.com> wrote:
>[color=green]
>> On 21 Sep 2006 16:55:20 GMT, "badgolferman"
>> <REMOVETHISbadgolferman@gmail.com> wrote:
>>[color=darkred]
>> >> America is as great as it is because we have so many different[/color]
>> people >> from so many different backgrounds. We can all live
>> together and we >> can all be Americans. But we can also be
>> individuals.[color=darkred]
>> >
>> > I still agree with you on this, but these are all things that are
>> > taught by parents and family. Having elementary schools teach
>> > multiculturism is outside the scope of the learning experience small
>> > children should be taught. You would be arguing the same if the
>> > topic was religion in schools.[/color]
>>
>> You would be amazed at how much small children can be taught. They're
>> only limited by the pre-conceptions of those teaching them. :-)
>>
>> _If_ all families and parents taught their kids about other cultures
>> and peoples, and if they taught their kids accurately, then there
>> would be no need to do this in school.
>>
>> Since we do have problems with prejudice, bigotry, and hatred in this
>> country, and since it does affect us as a whole and individually, then
>> we need to teach school kids about others and try to have them learn
>> to be tolerant of others.
>>
>> Religion actually is part of multiculturalism. I wouldn't have any
>> problem with a sort of survey course teaching this kind of thing, as
>> long as it's made plain that these are people's beliefs and not just
>> facts. We'd also have to ensure that we covered as many religions as
>> feasible so as not to slight anyone. (You'd feel like a real outsider
>> if they covered every religion but yours in class.) In fact, I think
>> it would be good to tailor the classes somewhat to the kids who are in
>> them. We might figure out the major religions and cultures that will
>> always be covered and then add in others when there are
>> representatives of these in a class.[/color]
>
> Let's teach them reading, writing and arithmetic first. There are far
> too many Americans who can't even carry on a conversation, much less
> spell commonly used words properly.
>
> I do crossword puzzles at lunch with several co-workers. Adult,
> college-educated, software programmers and electrical engineers can't
> even spell words properly to fit them into the puzzle. It's pitiful
> how small their vocabularies and spelling skills are (much like dizzy).
> I would expect schools to teach children the fundamentals before they
> get involved in multiculturalism.[/color]

By the time I got to college at age 30, the generation I went to school with
was used to spell checkers. I had grown up with the Original Mark I Human
Eyeball spell checker. I made an entire accounting class blisteringly mad
at me. I got 100 on the first test, but it was all math that was easier
than the math I had to do every day at my job, and for some reason, the Boss
doesn't take 60 as a passing score. . . . .

Charles of Schaumburg