Intermittent no-start condition

My 2000 LS with 86 K miles has had 3 widely spaced occurrences of no-start,
where the starter bendix drive engages but the starter does not turn over
the engine. Playing with the ignition switch and bumping the starter
eventually gets the starter to engage. Battery voltage is 12.8 volts when
this happens, didn't have an ammeter with me to check draw.

The third time this happened was this past Friday. Feeling lazy, I took the
car to the very friendly local Lexus dealer, agreed to the $110 diagnostic
charge, and went to their customer waiting area with HD TV, coffee, juice,
rolls, and 3 computers to check e-mail. 20 minutes later, the service
advisor comes to me and says that the car started for the technician
perfectly every time, gave me an RX 330 to drive so that they could let my
car cold soak. The service advisor did not want to recommend replacing the
starter without the technician experiencing the no-start condition.

I digress, but the RX 330 is a very nice vehicle. It forded foot-deep water
on flooded streets on Friday evening, hauled 400 pounds of water softener
salt and groceries on Saturday, made it up the hill to a climbing tower at
camp on a muddy rutted path on Sunday, and transported me to work on Monday
and Tuesday. I'm thinking that this is more practical for me than a sedan.

My car kept starting normally on Saturday, Monday, and Tuesday so I finally
went and picked it up. Since I have never heard of a starter getting
better, I figure it will bite the bullet either in the dead of winter or on
a rainy day when I'm driving clients around.

F.Y.I., the starter is located in the valley between the cylinder banks, and
access to the starter requires removal of the intake manifold, and I assume
all of the paraphernalia related to the intake. Flat rate time is over 5
hours to R&R the starter.

I've pretty much decided what I'm going to do about the car, but I'm curious
what others would do: A) spring $1,000 to have the dealership replace the
starter, or B) buy a starter, get down and dirty, and put all those air
tools gathering dust in the tool box to good use. If going with choice B),
is it worth it for a cheapskate with a little bit of automotive knowledge to
spend $10 for on line access to the factory repair manual or is it better to
save the $10 bucks and wing it?
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

Ray O, 9/27/2006,11:19:13 PM, wrote:
[color=blue]
> My 2000 LS with 86 K miles has had 3 widely spaced occurrences of
> no-start, where the starter bendix drive engages but the starter does
> not turn over the engine. Playing with the ignition switch and
> bumping the starter eventually gets the starter to engage. Battery
> voltage is 12.8 volts when this happens, didn't have an ammeter with
> me to check draw.
>
> The third time this happened was this past Friday. Feeling lazy, I
> took the car to the very friendly local Lexus dealer, agreed to the
> $110 diagnostic charge, and went to their customer waiting area with
> HD TV, coffee, juice, rolls, and 3 computers to check e-mail. 20
> minutes later, the service advisor comes to me and says that the car
> started for the technician perfectly every time, gave me an RX 330 to
> drive so that they could let my car cold soak. The service advisor
> did not want to recommend replacing the starter without the
> technician experiencing the no-start condition.
>
> I digress, but the RX 330 is a very nice vehicle. It forded
> foot-deep water on flooded streets on Friday evening, hauled 400
> pounds of water softener salt and groceries on Saturday, made it up
> the hill to a climbing tower at camp on a muddy rutted path on
> Sunday, and transported me to work on Monday and Tuesday. I'm
> thinking that this is more practical for me than a sedan.
>
> My car kept starting normally on Saturday, Monday, and Tuesday so I
> finally went and picked it up. Since I have never heard of a starter
> getting better, I figure it will bite the bullet either in the dead
> of winter or on a rainy day when I'm driving clients around.
>
> F.Y.I., the starter is located in the valley between the cylinder
> banks, and access to the starter requires removal of the intake
> manifold, and I assume all of the paraphernalia related to the
> intake. Flat rate time is over 5 hours to R&R the starter.
>
> I've pretty much decided what I'm going to do about the car, but I'm
> curious what others would do: A) spring $1,000 to have the
> dealership replace the starter, or B) buy a starter, get down and
> dirty, and put all those air tools gathering dust in the tool box to
> good use. If going with choice B), is it worth it for a cheapskate
> with a little bit of automotive knowledge to spend $10 for on line
> access to the factory repair manual or is it better to save the $10
> bucks and wing it?[/color]

It's hard for me to believe someone with all this automotive knowledge
would let a little starter problem beat them! I would expect you to
tear the guts out of that car to chase down a rattle if it came down to
that.

I am not familiar with the Avalon but I was able to change the starter
on my Camry 4 and I have very little experience doing mechanical work.
I would say the automotive gods are dealing out mechanical problems to
us proportionate to our mechanical knowledge.

Get out there and change the starter and then call up Art to see if he
wants to buy another Avalon now that he regrets getting rid of his
other one!

badgolferman, 9/28/2006, 6:33:03 AM,
<xn0err1nl1xl8ge000@news.readfreenews.net> wrote:
[color=blue]
> Ray O, 9/27/2006,11:19:13 PM, wrote:
>[color=green]
> > My 2000 LS with 86 K miles has had 3 widely spaced occurrences of
> > no-start, where the starter bendix drive engages but the starter
> > does not turn over the engine. Playing with the ignition switch and
> > bumping the starter eventually gets the starter to engage. Battery
> > voltage is 12.8 volts when this happens, didn't have an ammeter with
> > me to check draw.
> >
> > The third time this happened was this past Friday. Feeling lazy, I
> > took the car to the very friendly local Lexus dealer, agreed to the
> > $110 diagnostic charge, and went to their customer waiting area with
> > HD TV, coffee, juice, rolls, and 3 computers to check e-mail. 20
> > minutes later, the service advisor comes to me and says that the car
> > started for the technician perfectly every time, gave me an RX 330
> > to drive so that they could let my car cold soak. The service
> > advisor did not want to recommend replacing the starter without the
> > technician experiencing the no-start condition.
> >
> > I digress, but the RX 330 is a very nice vehicle. It forded
> > foot-deep water on flooded streets on Friday evening, hauled 400
> > pounds of water softener salt and groceries on Saturday, made it up
> > the hill to a climbing tower at camp on a muddy rutted path on
> > Sunday, and transported me to work on Monday and Tuesday. I'm
> > thinking that this is more practical for me than a sedan.
> >
> > My car kept starting normally on Saturday, Monday, and Tuesday so I
> > finally went and picked it up. Since I have never heard of a
> > starter getting better, I figure it will bite the bullet either in
> > the dead of winter or on a rainy day when I'm driving clients
> > around.
> >
> > F.Y.I., the starter is located in the valley between the cylinder
> > banks, and access to the starter requires removal of the intake
> > manifold, and I assume all of the paraphernalia related to the
> > intake. Flat rate time is over 5 hours to R&R the starter.
> >
> > I've pretty much decided what I'm going to do about the car, but I'm
> > curious what others would do: A) spring $1,000 to have the
> > dealership replace the starter, or B) buy a starter, get down and
> > dirty, and put all those air tools gathering dust in the tool box to
> > good use. If going with choice B), is it worth it for a cheapskate
> > with a little bit of automotive knowledge to spend $10 for on line
> > access to the factory repair manual or is it better to save the $10
> > bucks and wing it?[/color]
>
> It's hard for me to believe someone with all this automotive knowledge
> would let a little starter problem beat them! I would expect you to
> tear the guts out of that car to chase down a rattle if it came down
> to that.
>
> I am not familiar with the Avalon but I was able to change the starter
> on my Camry 4 and I have very little experience doing mechanical work.
> I would say the automotive gods are dealing out mechanical problems to
> us proportionate to our mechanical knowledge.
>
> Get out there and change the starter and then call up Art to see if he
> wants to buy another Avalon now that he regrets getting rid of his
> other one![/color]

I guess that is a Lexus, but the sentiment remains the same.

In article <bd9fc$451b3f6e$180ffe52$7275@msgid.meganewsservers.com>
rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom "Ray O" writes:
[color=blue]
> My 2000 LS with 86 K miles has had 3 widely spaced occurrences
> of no-start, where the starter bendix drive engages but the
> starter does not turn over the engine. [...]
>
> [...] but I'm curious what others would do: [A)...B)...C)...][/color]

Vote (D): Obtain an el-cheapo second-hand starter from somewhere
and try that. If it works, have Christmas early and buy yourself
a new starter (or repair what seems broken if you can identify it
during an educational strip-down).
--
Andrew Stephenson

"Andrew Stephenson" <ames@deltrak.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1159453781snz@deltrak.demon.co.uk...[color=blue]
> In article <bd9fc$451b3f6e$180ffe52$7275@msgid.meganewsservers.com>
> rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom "Ray O" writes:
>[color=green]
>> My 2000 LS with 86 K miles has had 3 widely spaced occurrences
>> of no-start, where the starter bendix drive engages but the
>> starter does not turn over the engine. [...]
>>
>> [...] but I'm curious what others would do: [A)...B)...C)...][/color]
>
> Vote (D): Obtain an el-cheapo second-hand starter from somewhere
> and try that. If it works, have Christmas early and buy yourself
> a new starter (or repair what seems broken if you can identify it
> during an educational strip-down).
> --
> Andrew Stephenson
>[/color]

I actually thought of that, but the technician said that he has seen
starters on these cars go. Knowing how consistently these cars are built, a
junk yard starter is very likely to have the same problem. I am not keen on
undertaking the task twice ;-)
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

"badgolferman" <REMOVETHISbadgolferman@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:xn0err1nl1xl8ge000@news.readfreenews.net...[color=blue]
> Ray O, 9/27/2006,11:19:13 PM, wrote:
>[color=green]
>> My 2000 LS with 86 K miles has had 3 widely spaced occurrences of
>> no-start, where the starter bendix drive engages but the starter does
>> not turn over the engine. Playing with the ignition switch and
>> bumping the starter eventually gets the starter to engage. Battery
>> voltage is 12.8 volts when this happens, didn't have an ammeter with
>> me to check draw.
>>
>> The third time this happened was this past Friday. Feeling lazy, I
>> took the car to the very friendly local Lexus dealer, agreed to the
>> $110 diagnostic charge, and went to their customer waiting area with
>> HD TV, coffee, juice, rolls, and 3 computers to check e-mail. 20
>> minutes later, the service advisor comes to me and says that the car
>> started for the technician perfectly every time, gave me an RX 330 to
>> drive so that they could let my car cold soak. The service advisor
>> did not want to recommend replacing the starter without the
>> technician experiencing the no-start condition.
>>
>> I digress, but the RX 330 is a very nice vehicle. It forded
>> foot-deep water on flooded streets on Friday evening, hauled 400
>> pounds of water softener salt and groceries on Saturday, made it up
>> the hill to a climbing tower at camp on a muddy rutted path on
>> Sunday, and transported me to work on Monday and Tuesday. I'm
>> thinking that this is more practical for me than a sedan.
>>
>> My car kept starting normally on Saturday, Monday, and Tuesday so I
>> finally went and picked it up. Since I have never heard of a starter
>> getting better, I figure it will bite the bullet either in the dead
>> of winter or on a rainy day when I'm driving clients around.
>>
>> F.Y.I., the starter is located in the valley between the cylinder
>> banks, and access to the starter requires removal of the intake
>> manifold, and I assume all of the paraphernalia related to the
>> intake. Flat rate time is over 5 hours to R&R the starter.
>>
>> I've pretty much decided what I'm going to do about the car, but I'm
>> curious what others would do: A) spring $1,000 to have the
>> dealership replace the starter, or B) buy a starter, get down and
>> dirty, and put all those air tools gathering dust in the tool box to
>> good use. If going with choice B), is it worth it for a cheapskate
>> with a little bit of automotive knowledge to spend $10 for on line
>> access to the factory repair manual or is it better to save the $10
>> bucks and wing it?[/color]
>
> It's hard for me to believe someone with all this automotive knowledge
> would let a little starter problem beat them! I would expect you to
> tear the guts out of that car to chase down a rattle if it came down to
> that.
>
> I am not familiar with the Avalon but I was able to change the starter
> on my Camry 4 and I have very little experience doing mechanical work.
> I would say the automotive gods are dealing out mechanical problems to
> us proportionate to our mechanical knowledge.
>
> Get out there and change the starter and then call up Art to see if he
> wants to buy another Avalon now that he regrets getting rid of his
> other one![/color]

The starter on the Camry is on the side of the engine that faces the front
of the car so it is very easy to get to, probably a 15 minute job.

The starter on the LS is in the middle of the engine, underneath the intake
manifold, so that has to come off to get to the starter. Flat rate time is
5 hours!
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 22:19:13 -0500, "Ray O"
<rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote:
[color=blue]
>My 2000 LS with 86 K miles has had 3 widely spaced occurrences of no-start,
>where the starter bendix drive engages but the starter does not turn over
>the engine. Playing with the ignition switch and bumping the starter
>eventually gets the starter to engage. Battery voltage is 12.8 volts when
>this happens, didn't have an ammeter with me to check draw.
>
>The third time this happened was this past Friday. Feeling lazy, I took the
>car to the very friendly local Lexus dealer, agreed to the $110 diagnostic
>charge, and went to their customer waiting area with HD TV, coffee, juice,
>rolls, and 3 computers to check e-mail. 20 minutes later, the service
>advisor comes to me and says that the car started for the technician
>perfectly every time, gave me an RX 330 to drive so that they could let my
>car cold soak. The service advisor did not want to recommend replacing the
>starter without the technician experiencing the no-start condition.
>
>I digress, but the RX 330 is a very nice vehicle. It forded foot-deep water
>on flooded streets on Friday evening, hauled 400 pounds of water softener
>salt and groceries on Saturday, made it up the hill to a climbing tower at
>camp on a muddy rutted path on Sunday, and transported me to work on Monday
>and Tuesday. I'm thinking that this is more practical for me than a sedan.
>
>My car kept starting normally on Saturday, Monday, and Tuesday so I finally
>went and picked it up. Since I have never heard of a starter getting
>better, I figure it will bite the bullet either in the dead of winter or on
>a rainy day when I'm driving clients around.
>
>F.Y.I., the starter is located in the valley between the cylinder banks, and
>access to the starter requires removal of the intake manifold, and I assume
>all of the paraphernalia related to the intake. Flat rate time is over 5
>hours to R&R the starter.
>
>I've pretty much decided what I'm going to do about the car, but I'm curious
>what others would do: A) spring $1,000 to have the dealership replace the
>starter, or B) buy a starter, get down and dirty, and put all those air
>tools gathering dust in the tool box to good use. If going with choice B),
>is it worth it for a cheapskate with a little bit of automotive knowledge to
>spend $10 for on line access to the factory repair manual or is it better to
>save the $10 bucks and wing it?[/color]

Something tells me you need to get 'down and dirty'.

I'd pay the ten bucks and hope you don't need it....LOL


--

Scott in Florida

"Scott in Florida" <askifyouwant@mindspring.net> wrote in message
news:s1voh2p5ltk7af09g8b3gqgq6v00q3hbrb@4ax.com...[color=blue]
> On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 22:19:13 -0500, "Ray O"
> <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote:
>[color=green]
>>My 2000 LS with 86 K miles has had 3 widely spaced occurrences of
>>no-start,
>>where the starter bendix drive engages but the starter does not turn over
>>the engine. Playing with the ignition switch and bumping the starter
>>eventually gets the starter to engage. Battery voltage is 12.8 volts when
>>this happens, didn't have an ammeter with me to check draw.
>>
>>The third time this happened was this past Friday. Feeling lazy, I took
>>the
>>car to the very friendly local Lexus dealer, agreed to the $110 diagnostic
>>charge, and went to their customer waiting area with HD TV, coffee, juice,
>>rolls, and 3 computers to check e-mail. 20 minutes later, the service
>>advisor comes to me and says that the car started for the technician
>>perfectly every time, gave me an RX 330 to drive so that they could let my
>>car cold soak. The service advisor did not want to recommend replacing
>>the
>>starter without the technician experiencing the no-start condition.
>>
>>I digress, but the RX 330 is a very nice vehicle. It forded foot-deep
>>water
>>on flooded streets on Friday evening, hauled 400 pounds of water softener
>>salt and groceries on Saturday, made it up the hill to a climbing tower
>>at
>>camp on a muddy rutted path on Sunday, and transported me to work on
>>Monday
>>and Tuesday. I'm thinking that this is more practical for me than a
>>sedan.
>>
>>My car kept starting normally on Saturday, Monday, and Tuesday so I
>>finally
>>went and picked it up. Since I have never heard of a starter getting
>>better, I figure it will bite the bullet either in the dead of winter or
>>on
>>a rainy day when I'm driving clients around.
>>
>>F.Y.I., the starter is located in the valley between the cylinder banks,
>>and
>>access to the starter requires removal of the intake manifold, and I
>>assume
>>all of the paraphernalia related to the intake. Flat rate time is over 5
>>hours to R&R the starter.
>>
>>I've pretty much decided what I'm going to do about the car, but I'm
>>curious
>>what others would do: A) spring $1,000 to have the dealership replace the
>>starter, or B) buy a starter, get down and dirty, and put all those air
>>tools gathering dust in the tool box to good use. If going with choice
>>B),
>>is it worth it for a cheapskate with a little bit of automotive knowledge
>>to
>>spend $10 for on line access to the factory repair manual or is it better
>>to
>>save the $10 bucks and wing it?[/color]
>
> Something tells me you need to get 'down and dirty'.
>
> I'd pay the ten bucks and hope you don't need it....LOL
>
>
> --
>
> Scott in Florida
>[/color]

That's the way I'm leaning!
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

On Thu, 28 Sep 2006 11:09:41 -0500, "Ray O"
<rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote:
[color=blue]
>The starter on the LS is in the middle of the engine, underneath the intake
>manifold, so that has to come off to get to the starter. Flat rate time is
>5 hours![/color]

I TOLD them not to let Ford do the design work, but Nooooo... ;-)

Seriously, who the <expletive deleted> put it THERE? That is some
seriously retarded design, starters wear out and fail semi-regularly.

--<< Bruce >>--

On Thu, 28 Sep 2006 22:42:26 -0500, "Ray O"
<rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote:
[color=blue]
>
>"Scott in Florida" <askifyouwant@mindspring.net> wrote in message
>news:s1voh2p5ltk7af09g8b3gqgq6v00q3hbrb@4ax.com...[color=green]
>> On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 22:19:13 -0500, "Ray O"
>> <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote:
>>[color=darkred]
>>>My 2000 LS with 86 K miles has had 3 widely spaced occurrences of
>>>no-start,
>>>where the starter bendix drive engages but the starter does not turn over
>>>the engine. Playing with the ignition switch and bumping the starter
>>>eventually gets the starter to engage. Battery voltage is 12.8 volts when
>>>this happens, didn't have an ammeter with me to check draw.
>>>
>>>The third time this happened was this past Friday. Feeling lazy, I took
>>>the
>>>car to the very friendly local Lexus dealer, agreed to the $110 diagnostic
>>>charge, and went to their customer waiting area with HD TV, coffee, juice,
>>>rolls, and 3 computers to check e-mail. 20 minutes later, the service
>>>advisor comes to me and says that the car started for the technician
>>>perfectly every time, gave me an RX 330 to drive so that they could let my
>>>car cold soak. The service advisor did not want to recommend replacing
>>>the
>>>starter without the technician experiencing the no-start condition.
>>>
>>>I digress, but the RX 330 is a very nice vehicle. It forded foot-deep
>>>water
>>>on flooded streets on Friday evening, hauled 400 pounds of water softener
>>>salt and groceries on Saturday, made it up the hill to a climbing tower
>>>at
>>>camp on a muddy rutted path on Sunday, and transported me to work on
>>>Monday
>>>and Tuesday. I'm thinking that this is more practical for me than a
>>>sedan.
>>>
>>>My car kept starting normally on Saturday, Monday, and Tuesday so I
>>>finally
>>>went and picked it up. Since I have never heard of a starter getting
>>>better, I figure it will bite the bullet either in the dead of winter or
>>>on
>>>a rainy day when I'm driving clients around.
>>>
>>>F.Y.I., the starter is located in the valley between the cylinder banks,
>>>and
>>>access to the starter requires removal of the intake manifold, and I
>>>assume
>>>all of the paraphernalia related to the intake. Flat rate time is over 5
>>>hours to R&R the starter.
>>>
>>>I've pretty much decided what I'm going to do about the car, but I'm
>>>curious
>>>what others would do: A) spring $1,000 to have the dealership replace the
>>>starter, or B) buy a starter, get down and dirty, and put all those air
>>>tools gathering dust in the tool box to good use. If going with choice
>>>B),
>>>is it worth it for a cheapskate with a little bit of automotive knowledge
>>>to
>>>spend $10 for on line access to the factory repair manual or is it better
>>>to
>>>save the $10 bucks and wing it?[/color]
>>
>> Something tells me you need to get 'down and dirty'.
>>
>> I'd pay the ten bucks and hope you don't need it....LOL
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Scott in Florida
>>[/color]
>
>That's the way I'm leaning![/color]

Take pictures and either share them on
the web or email them to us....

It is ok to send the pics of the blood that you
KNOW will happen, too....LOL


--

Scott in Florida

"Scott in Florida" <askifyouwant@mindspring.net> wrote in message
news:9jaqh21n7tvf0rm7k1ibqlq65fp6sp8uar@4ax.com...[color=blue]
> On Thu, 28 Sep 2006 22:42:26 -0500, "Ray O"
> <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote:
>[color=green]
>>
>>"Scott in Florida" <askifyouwant@mindspring.net> wrote in message
>>news:s1voh2p5ltk7af09g8b3gqgq6v00q3hbrb@4ax.com...[color=darkred]
>>> On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 22:19:13 -0500, "Ray O"
>>> <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote:
>>>
>>>>My 2000 LS with 86 K miles has had 3 widely spaced occurrences of
>>>>no-start,
>>>>where the starter bendix drive engages but the starter does not turn
>>>>over
>>>>the engine. Playing with the ignition switch and bumping the starter
>>>>eventually gets the starter to engage. Battery voltage is 12.8 volts
>>>>when
>>>>this happens, didn't have an ammeter with me to check draw.
>>>>
>>>>The third time this happened was this past Friday. Feeling lazy, I took
>>>>the
>>>>car to the very friendly local Lexus dealer, agreed to the $110
>>>>diagnostic
>>>>charge, and went to their customer waiting area with HD TV, coffee,
>>>>juice,
>>>>rolls, and 3 computers to check e-mail. 20 minutes later, the service
>>>>advisor comes to me and says that the car started for the technician
>>>>perfectly every time, gave me an RX 330 to drive so that they could let
>>>>my
>>>>car cold soak. The service advisor did not want to recommend replacing
>>>>the
>>>>starter without the technician experiencing the no-start condition.
>>>>
>>>>I digress, but the RX 330 is a very nice vehicle. It forded foot-deep
>>>>water
>>>>on flooded streets on Friday evening, hauled 400 pounds of water
>>>>softener
>>>>salt and groceries on Saturday, made it up the hill to a climbing tower
>>>>at
>>>>camp on a muddy rutted path on Sunday, and transported me to work on
>>>>Monday
>>>>and Tuesday. I'm thinking that this is more practical for me than a
>>>>sedan.
>>>>
>>>>My car kept starting normally on Saturday, Monday, and Tuesday so I
>>>>finally
>>>>went and picked it up. Since I have never heard of a starter getting
>>>>better, I figure it will bite the bullet either in the dead of winter or
>>>>on
>>>>a rainy day when I'm driving clients around.
>>>>
>>>>F.Y.I., the starter is located in the valley between the cylinder banks,
>>>>and
>>>>access to the starter requires removal of the intake manifold, and I
>>>>assume
>>>>all of the paraphernalia related to the intake. Flat rate time is over
>>>>5
>>>>hours to R&R the starter.
>>>>
>>>>I've pretty much decided what I'm going to do about the car, but I'm
>>>>curious
>>>>what others would do: A) spring $1,000 to have the dealership replace
>>>>the
>>>>starter, or B) buy a starter, get down and dirty, and put all those air
>>>>tools gathering dust in the tool box to good use. If going with choice
>>>>B),
>>>>is it worth it for a cheapskate with a little bit of automotive
>>>>knowledge
>>>>to
>>>>spend $10 for on line access to the factory repair manual or is it
>>>>better
>>>>to
>>>>save the $10 bucks and wing it?
>>>
>>> Something tells me you need to get 'down and dirty'.
>>>
>>> I'd pay the ten bucks and hope you don't need it....LOL
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Scott in Florida
>>>[/color]
>>
>>That's the way I'm leaning![/color]
>
> Take pictures and either share them on
> the web or email them to us....
>
> It is ok to send the pics of the blood that you
> KNOW will happen, too....LOL
>
>
> --
>
> Scott in Florida
>[/color]

I suppose that would be OK as long as there is no sound to let people know
what I'm saying as the project progresses!
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

"Bruce L. Bergman" <blPYTHONbergman@earthlink.invalid> wrote in message
news:j2aph29cpj73la8d0ppd8bn6vcvft17qea@4ax.com...[color=blue]
> On Thu, 28 Sep 2006 11:09:41 -0500, "Ray O"
> <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote:
>[color=green]
>>The starter on the LS is in the middle of the engine, underneath the
>>intake
>>manifold, so that has to come off to get to the starter. Flat rate time
>>is
>>5 hours![/color]
>
> I TOLD them not to let Ford do the design work, but Nooooo... ;-)
>
> Seriously, who the <expletive deleted> put it THERE? That is some
> seriously retarded design, starters wear out and fail semi-regularly.
>
> --<< Bruce >>--[/color]

I've been thinking about why the starter would be placed where it is so
difficult to reach. The designers were trying to lower the coefficient of
drag, as evidenced by a big plastic shield under the engine and a fairly
smooth undercarriage. IIRC, there were commercials that showed the car in a
wind tunnel that demonstrated how even the undercarriage was aerodynamic.
Perhaps placing the starter in a more conventional position would have
intruded on the wheel wells?
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 10:44:41 -0500, "Ray O"
<rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote:
[color=blue]
>
>"Scott in Florida" <askifyouwant@mindspring.net> wrote in message
>news:9jaqh21n7tvf0rm7k1ibqlq65fp6sp8uar@4ax.com...[color=green]
>> On Thu, 28 Sep 2006 22:42:26 -0500, "Ray O"
>> <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote:
>>[color=darkred]
>>>
>>>"Scott in Florida" <askifyouwant@mindspring.net> wrote in message
>>>news:s1voh2p5ltk7af09g8b3gqgq6v00q3hbrb@4ax.com...
>>>> On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 22:19:13 -0500, "Ray O"
>>>> <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>My 2000 LS with 86 K miles has had 3 widely spaced occurrences of
>>>>>no-start,
>>>>>where the starter bendix drive engages but the starter does not turn
>>>>>over
>>>>>the engine. Playing with the ignition switch and bumping the starter
>>>>>eventually gets the starter to engage. Battery voltage is 12.8 volts
>>>>>when
>>>>>this happens, didn't have an ammeter with me to check draw.
>>>>>
>>>>>The third time this happened was this past Friday. Feeling lazy, I took
>>>>>the
>>>>>car to the very friendly local Lexus dealer, agreed to the $110
>>>>>diagnostic
>>>>>charge, and went to their customer waiting area with HD TV, coffee,
>>>>>juice,
>>>>>rolls, and 3 computers to check e-mail. 20 minutes later, the service
>>>>>advisor comes to me and says that the car started for the technician
>>>>>perfectly every time, gave me an RX 330 to drive so that they could let
>>>>>my
>>>>>car cold soak. The service advisor did not want to recommend replacing
>>>>>the
>>>>>starter without the technician experiencing the no-start condition.
>>>>>
>>>>>I digress, but the RX 330 is a very nice vehicle. It forded foot-deep
>>>>>water
>>>>>on flooded streets on Friday evening, hauled 400 pounds of water
>>>>>softener
>>>>>salt and groceries on Saturday, made it up the hill to a climbing tower
>>>>>at
>>>>>camp on a muddy rutted path on Sunday, and transported me to work on
>>>>>Monday
>>>>>and Tuesday. I'm thinking that this is more practical for me than a
>>>>>sedan.
>>>>>
>>>>>My car kept starting normally on Saturday, Monday, and Tuesday so I
>>>>>finally
>>>>>went and picked it up. Since I have never heard of a starter getting
>>>>>better, I figure it will bite the bullet either in the dead of winter or
>>>>>on
>>>>>a rainy day when I'm driving clients around.
>>>>>
>>>>>F.Y.I., the starter is located in the valley between the cylinder banks,
>>>>>and
>>>>>access to the starter requires removal of the intake manifold, and I
>>>>>assume
>>>>>all of the paraphernalia related to the intake. Flat rate time is over
>>>>>5
>>>>>hours to R&R the starter.
>>>>>
>>>>>I've pretty much decided what I'm going to do about the car, but I'm
>>>>>curious
>>>>>what others would do: A) spring $1,000 to have the dealership replace
>>>>>the
>>>>>starter, or B) buy a starter, get down and dirty, and put all those air
>>>>>tools gathering dust in the tool box to good use. If going with choice
>>>>>B),
>>>>>is it worth it for a cheapskate with a little bit of automotive
>>>>>knowledge
>>>>>to
>>>>>spend $10 for on line access to the factory repair manual or is it
>>>>>better
>>>>>to
>>>>>save the $10 bucks and wing it?
>>>>
>>>> Something tells me you need to get 'down and dirty'.
>>>>
>>>> I'd pay the ten bucks and hope you don't need it....LOL
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Scott in Florida
>>>>
>>>
>>>That's the way I'm leaning![/color]
>>
>> Take pictures and either share them on
>> the web or email them to us....
>>
>> It is ok to send the pics of the blood that you
>> KNOW will happen, too....LOL
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Scott in Florida
>>[/color]
>
>I suppose that would be OK as long as there is no sound to let people know
>what I'm saying as the project progresses![/color]


I doubt you would find any virgin ears......

LOL


--

Scott in Florida