Ordering a 2007 Rav4

Rav4 choices are sparse in SoCal. I can't find more than a dozen 3.5L
limited trims in the immediate area. The few in driving distance lack
leather or are painted some god awful color.

The dealership said they could order one for me. Is this a legitimate way
to buy a car? I heard some dealerships pretend to order and just wait/hope
for the right inventory. The dealership wants $500 and a credit check, but
no mention of final price. Seems like a pretty bleeping strange way to do
business.

Thanks.

On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 23:24:12 -0700, "Brian" <brian@nospam.com> wrote:
[color=blue]
>Rav4 choices are sparse in SoCal. I can't find more than a dozen 3.5L
>limited trims in the immediate area. The few in driving distance lack
>leather or are painted some god awful color.
>
>The dealership said they could order one for me. Is this a legitimate way
>to buy a car? I heard some dealerships pretend to order and just wait/hope
>for the right inventory. The dealership wants $500 and a credit check, but
>no mention of final price. Seems like a pretty bleeping strange way to do
>business.
>
>Thanks.
>[/color]

The world doesn't begin and end in California....

Do a search outside California, find what you want, negotiate the
deal, take a plane ride and a road trip.


--

Scott in Florida

On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 23:24:12 -0700, "Brian" <brian@nospam.com> wrote:
[color=blue]
>Rav4 choices are sparse in SoCal. I can't find more than a dozen 3.5L
>limited trims in the immediate area. The few in driving distance lack
>leather or are painted some god awful color.
>
>The dealership said they could order one for me. Is this a legitimate way
>to buy a car? I heard some dealerships pretend to order and just wait/hope
>for the right inventory. The dealership wants $500 and a credit check, but
>no mention of final price. Seems like a pretty bleeping strange way to do
>business.[/color]

That dealer you called probably thinks he has a desperate buyer,
since the cars aren't out yet and you are calling around to get one -
of course he isn't going to talk price now, he figures you'll pay
whatever he asks. (Ominous Music Sting: <Dun-Dun-Dunnnnnnnn....>)

The credit check is to see how thoroughly they can pluck you, and
I'll bet they'll try to find a way to make that deposit non-
refundable - even if they don't, they still get the 'float'. But if
you really need the first one off the truck that's how you have to do
it, and expect to get nailed several grand extra for the privilege.
You'll pay full sticker plus $2K to $5K in ADM, plus some "packs",
take it or leave it.

Don't dance that dance, it's for suckers - *You* need to call the
dance before it starts. Call another dealer's Fleet Department, put
in your request (No deposit or much smaller, like $50 or $100), and be
sure to say there's no rush. You let the "I'll pay any price, but I
Gotta Have It NOW!" crowd have first dibs for a month or two on the
new model year.

When the clamor dies down a bit and they can get the car you want
and can do the deal at the right price for both of you, then they call
and you can do a deal. Might not take that long, either.

I did a deal via Fax machine (this was long before "Al Gore invented
the Interweb..." ;-) with Dianne Whitmire at
[url]http://www.carsontoyota.com[/url] while she was up north running sales at
Novato Toyota, very honorable lady, No BS. Call or write, tell her I
sent you, Talk cars, put in your request.

And you won't have to fly to Nevada either - the cars are shipped
into the ports in California, they have to pay more to truck ship them
inland (which gets added into the price), then you have to spend on
plane tickets and gas to get the car back to SoCal.

Remember that the Fleet people are like Joe Friday - "Just the
Facts, Ma'am." ;-) They don't want to play back-and-forth with
multiple offers and shaving $100 off the offer to beat the next dealer
to the west, only to let the F&I Man sucker it back out of you (and
more, much more) in the Closing Room...

They're selling to people who are ready to buy (as opposed to the
"tire kickers" in the Showroom) and they are going to come out of the
gate with a good number where they still make some money on the deal.
(The "We lose money on every deal and make it up on volume" line from
years past is total BS.) Their job is to move the cars in bulk
without spending too much time on any one sale, and not wasting your
time and theirs playing the "I'll have to talk to our Sales
Manager..." game.

Just do your pricing research so you know whether the offer is real
or not, and talk to your bank or credit union first to know whether
any financing or extended warranties they offer are a real deal or
not. Won't break their hearts if you have your financing pre-arranged
and write them a check for the full amount right there - it's fun
writing out five-figure personal checks.... (NOT. >_< )

--<< Bruce >>--

Bruce Bergman wrote:[color=blue]
> the cars are shipped into the ports in California, they have to pay
> more to truck ship them inland (which gets added into the price)[/color]

Thanks for that great posting, Bruce. Very informative.

But I have a question. I thought the Destination Charge for a
Toyota ($645 on the Rav4) is constant, whether you buy the car at a
Los Angeles dealer or one in Kansas--or so I read somewhere on the
web, maybe Edmunds. Would the Nevada dealer, for instance, eliminate
the Delivery Charge //as shown on the Invoice// if the original poster
picks up the car at the West Coast port or nearby?! If so, that would
be great.

This is what Edmunds says about the "Destination Charge":

"A flat fee that the manufacturer charges to deliver a vehicle from the
factory to the dealership. The fee is not negotiable and is generally the
same amount no matter how far or near you live from the factory."

Yikes, Edmunds says the fee is "not negotiable," unlike pretty
much everything else. But I hope they are wrong and you are right :-)
Your expert postings are invaluable.




--
Posted via a free Usenet account from [url]http://www.teranews.com[/url]

No, it is a buyers market today, walk away and find a dealer that has what
you want or will get one for you from another dealer. If you can't find one
look for another brand dealer that will.


mike hunt


"Brian" <brian@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:go%Xg.929$zf3.918@fed1read03...[color=blue]
> Rav4 choices are sparse in SoCal. I can't find more than a dozen 3.5L
> limited trims in the immediate area. The few in driving distance lack
> leather or are painted some god awful color.
>
> The dealership said they could order one for me. Is this a legitimate way
> to buy a car? I heard some dealerships pretend to order and just
> wait/hope for the right inventory. The dealership wants $500 and a credit
> check, but no mention of final price. Seems like a pretty bleeping
> strange way to do business.
>
> Thanks.
>[/color]

Mike Hunter wrote:[color=blue]
> No, it is a buyers market today, walk away and find a dealer that has what
> you want or will get one for you from another dealer. If you can't find one
> look for another brand dealer that will.
>
>
> mike hunt
>
>
> "Brian" <brian@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:go%Xg.929$zf3.918@fed1read03...[color=green]
>> Rav4 choices are sparse in SoCal. I can't find more than a dozen 3.5L
>> limited trims in the immediate area. The few in driving distance lack
>> leather or are painted some god awful color.
>>
>> The dealership said they could order one for me. Is this a legitimate way
>> to buy a car? I heard some dealerships pretend to order and just
>> wait/hope for the right inventory. The dealership wants $500 and a credit
>> check, but no mention of final price. Seems like a pretty bleeping
>> strange way to do business.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>[/color]
>
>[/color]
Ordering a car from the factory is not unusual, any dealer should be
able to do it. I ordered my 1992 Dodge Caravan from a local dealer.
The nice thing is you can chose exactly what color and options you want.

However, the dealer should give you a final price. A down payment and a
credit check are pretty standard. You might also want to know how long
it will take for the car to come into the dealership.

Don

Ref reply to buy in another state. I'd be careful buying a non-CALIF car
and then returning to CALIF. Aren't their emissions still stricter than
most other sates? Ok at order car - but know what you are paying up front.
He will get from distributor vice directly from factory. He should give you
good deal since it won't sit on his lot waiting for a buyer.

"Scott in Florida" <askifyouwant@mindspring.net> wrote in message
news:b8p1j2lf0jn1impds006r2tmtmr7hl97bl@4ax.com...[color=blue]
> On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 23:24:12 -0700, "Brian" <brian@nospam.com> wrote:
>[color=green]
>>Rav4 choices are sparse in SoCal. I can't find more than a dozen 3.5L
>>limited trims in the immediate area. The few in driving distance lack
>>leather or are painted some god awful color.
>>
>>The dealership said they could order one for me. Is this a legitimate way
>>to buy a car? I heard some dealerships pretend to order and just
>>wait/hope
>>for the right inventory. The dealership wants $500 and a credit check,
>>but
>>no mention of final price. Seems like a pretty bleeping strange way to do
>>business.
>>
>>Thanks.
>>[/color]
>
> The world doesn't begin and end in California....
>
> Do a search outside California, find what you want, negotiate the
> deal, take a plane ride and a road trip.
>
>
> --
>
> Scott in Florida
>[/color]

On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 14:45:34 -0500, Built_Well
<Built_Well_Toyota@hotmail.com> wrote:[color=blue]
>Bruce Bergman wrote:[/color]
[color=blue][color=green]
>> the cars are shipped into the ports in California, they have to pay
>> more to truck ship them inland (which gets added into the price)[/color]
>
> Thanks for that great posting, Bruce. Very informative.
>
> But I have a question. I thought the Destination Charge for a
>Toyota ($645 on the Rav4) is constant, whether you buy the car at a
>Los Angeles dealer or one in Kansas--or so I read somewhere on the
>web, maybe Edmunds. Would the Nevada dealer, for instance, eliminate
>the Delivery Charge //as shown on the Invoice// if the original poster
>picks up the car at the West Coast port or nearby?! If so, that would
>be great.
>
> This is what Edmunds says about the "Destination Charge":
>
>"A flat fee that the manufacturer charges to deliver a vehicle from the
>factory to the dealership. The fee is not negotiable and is generally the
>same amount no matter how far or near you live from the factory."
>
> Yikes, Edmunds says the fee is "not negotiable," unlike pretty
>much everything else. But I hope they are wrong and you are right :-)
>Your expert postings are invaluable.[/color]

Well, sites like Edmunds also say that there are other charges and
fees that are "non-negotiable" - but with the creative accounting that
they do on everything from Flooring Charges to warranty work to
'secret' Mfgr-to-Dealer rebates, they have to be negotiable *somehow*,
or they give it back to the close-in dealers in other ways. It makes
no sense to do otherwise.

I can guarantee you that the shipper (manufacturer or importer) pays
the trucking company a LOT less to pick up and deliver a car from the
port of entry (could be San Pedro, Long Beach or Port Hueneme CA) to
Carson (10 to 100 miles) than they do from the same port to Denver or
SLC (1,000 to 2,500 miles).

And if they rail ship to the general area and then truck them the
last 50 miles, then they have to pay the railroad for their services.

If they paid out a true flat rate transportation fee per car, they'd
have trucks lined up to make the local runs but never find a trucking
company willing to deliver to the hinterlands... Either the
manufacturer pockets the difference, or they're giving the dealers a
break somehow.

If there was a really big money gap somewhere in the system I'm sure
some dealers (the really close or the really distant) would think it
makes financial sense to invest in their own car carrier truck(s),
hire their own driver teams, pick up their own cars at the port, and
pocket the difference between the "non-negotiable fee" and their
actual costs. Or do it (even at break-even) just to thumb their noses
at the Teamsters Union... But you never see it.

BTW, I don't claim to be an "expert" at this, I just try to be an
astute observer with an ability to dig down to reality, and a fairly
well-honed Bullshit Detector to know when I'm being snowed.

--<< Bruce >>--

"Bruce L. Bergman" <blPYTHONbergman@earthlink.invalid> wrote in message
news:o0s2j2d2h40lfdl725cvc71ntmh9okurik@4ax.com...[color=blue]
> On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 14:45:34 -0500, Built_Well
> <Built_Well_Toyota@hotmail.com> wrote:[color=green]
>>Bruce Bergman wrote:[/color]
>[color=green][color=darkred]
>>> the cars are shipped into the ports in California, they have to pay
>>> more to truck ship them inland (which gets added into the price)[/color]
>>
>> Thanks for that great posting, Bruce. Very informative.
>>
>> But I have a question. I thought the Destination Charge for a
>>Toyota ($645 on the Rav4) is constant, whether you buy the car at a
>>Los Angeles dealer or one in Kansas--or so I read somewhere on the
>>web, maybe Edmunds. Would the Nevada dealer, for instance, eliminate
>>the Delivery Charge //as shown on the Invoice// if the original poster
>>picks up the car at the West Coast port or nearby?! If so, that would
>>be great.
>>
>> This is what Edmunds says about the "Destination Charge":
>>
>>"A flat fee that the manufacturer charges to deliver a vehicle from the
>>factory to the dealership. The fee is not negotiable and is generally the
>>same amount no matter how far or near you live from the factory."
>>
>> Yikes, Edmunds says the fee is "not negotiable," unlike pretty
>>much everything else. But I hope they are wrong and you are right :-)
>>Your expert postings are invaluable.[/color]
>
> Well, sites like Edmunds also say that there are other charges and
> fees that are "non-negotiable" - but with the creative accounting that
> they do on everything from Flooring Charges to warranty work to
> 'secret' Mfgr-to-Dealer rebates, they have to be negotiable *somehow*,
> or they give it back to the close-in dealers in other ways. It makes
> no sense to do otherwise.
>
> I can guarantee you that the shipper (manufacturer or importer) pays
> the trucking company a LOT less to pick up and deliver a car from the
> port of entry (could be San Pedro, Long Beach or Port Hueneme CA) to
> Carson (10 to 100 miles) than they do from the same port to Denver or
> SLC (1,000 to 2,500 miles).
>
> And if they rail ship to the general area and then truck them the
> last 50 miles, then they have to pay the railroad for their services.
>
> If they paid out a true flat rate transportation fee per car, they'd
> have trucks lined up to make the local runs but never find a trucking
> company willing to deliver to the hinterlands... Either the
> manufacturer pockets the difference, or they're giving the dealers a
> break somehow.
>
> If there was a really big money gap somewhere in the system I'm sure
> some dealers (the really close or the really distant) would think it
> makes financial sense to invest in their own car carrier truck(s),
> hire their own driver teams, pick up their own cars at the port, and
> pocket the difference between the "non-negotiable fee" and their
> actual costs. Or do it (even at break-even) just to thumb their noses
> at the Teamsters Union... But you never see it.
>
> BTW, I don't claim to be an "expert" at this, I just try to be an
> astute observer with an ability to dig down to reality, and a fairly
> well-honed Bullshit Detector to know when I'm being snowed.
>
> --<< Bruce >>--
>[/color]

Having spent my first year at the SF POE and 3 years in the distribution
department, I do have some background in how vehicles are ordered, allocated
to dealerships and then moving the vehicles from the factory to dealerships.

Dealer cost on vehicles is FOB at the port of entry (POE) or inland port.
The distributor (TMD or independents) pay the car carriers based on ICC
mileage from the POE or inland port to the dealership. Some dealerships are
literally 5 minutes away, while others are hundreds of miles away. The
distributors average out the shipping charges and then charge the dealers an
equalized destination charge so a dealer that is closer to the port does not
have a cost advantage over one that is farther away.

Once the vehicle is in the dealer's inventory, then transportation costs
between dealers are up to the dealer initiating the trade to either absorb
or try to pass on to the customer. Of course, most customers would object
to having to pay to trade, so dealers consider the inter-dealer
transportation costs as a cost of sale and reduction of gross profit.
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

Ray O wrote:[color=blue]
>
> Having spent my first year at...[/color]
=====

Thanks Ray O for that very interesting explanation.


--
Posted via a free Usenet account from [url]http://www.teranews.com[/url]

"Built_Well" <Built_Well_Toyota@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4531abdd$0$19653$88260bb3@free.teranews.com...[color=blue]
>
> Ray O wrote:[color=green]
>>
>> Having spent my first year at...[/color]
> =====
>
> Thanks Ray O for that very interesting explanation.
>[/color]
You're welcome!
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

Built_Well wrote:[color=blue]
> Bruce Bergman wrote:[color=green]
>> the cars are shipped into the ports in California, they have to pay
>> more to truck ship them inland (which gets added into the price)[/color]
>
> Thanks for that great posting, Bruce. Very informative.
>
> But I have a question. I thought the Destination Charge for a
> Toyota ($645 on the Rav4) is constant, whether you buy the car at a
> Los Angeles dealer or one in Kansas--or so I read somewhere on the
> web, maybe Edmunds.[/color]

Actually, if you plug in different zip codes on the Toyota site you'll
find that to be the case as well. Ie on the "build your own" car pages

I am in a similar situation. I want to get a model with options that
are only available in the next state (Indiana). I am not sure if I will
be able to drive there, so I may want to deal with my local dealer and
have them transfer the car, but I don't want some speed daemon put on 200 or
300 high speed miles during the transfer, I'd rather have the car broken
in properly. So my preference would be to have it trucked here. I assume
they would charge me? Anyone have any idea how much that would be?

Otherwise, I suppose I might try to get Indiana and pick it up
myself. In which case, I should probably just forget about the local
dealer? (who has been nice to me so far?)

Also, does anyone have experience with Toyota financing? Can they offer
good deals? I have excellent credit and am willing to put down a substantial
down payment.

E-loan and capital one offerer 5.99% and 6.35% depending on time frame, that
still seems high (though it's much lower than the local bank).

On Sun, 15 Oct 2006 12:24:01 GMT, Esmail Bonakdarian
<ebonakDUH@hotmail.com> wrote:
[color=blue]
>Built_Well wrote:[color=green]
>> Bruce Bergman wrote:[color=darkred]
>>> the cars are shipped into the ports in California, they have to pay
>>> more to truck ship them inland (which gets added into the price)[/color]
>>
>> Thanks for that great posting, Bruce. Very informative.
>>
>> But I have a question. I thought the Destination Charge for a
>> Toyota ($645 on the Rav4) is constant, whether you buy the car at a
>> Los Angeles dealer or one in Kansas--or so I read somewhere on the
>> web, maybe Edmunds.[/color]
>
>Actually, if you plug in different zip codes on the Toyota site you'll
>find that to be the case as well. Ie on the "build your own" car pages
>
>I am in a similar situation. I want to get a model with options that
>are only available in the next state (Indiana). I am not sure if I will
>be able to drive there, so I may want to deal with my local dealer and
>have them transfer the car, but I don't want some speed daemon put on 200 or
>300 high speed miles during the transfer, I'd rather have the car broken
>in properly. So my preference would be to have it trucked here. I assume
>they would charge me? Anyone have any idea how much that would be?
>
>Otherwise, I suppose I might try to get Indiana and pick it up
>myself. In which case, I should probably just forget about the local
>dealer? (who has been nice to me so far?)
>
>Also, does anyone have experience with Toyota financing? Can they offer
>good deals? I have excellent credit and am willing to put down a substantial
>down payment.
>
>E-loan and capital one offerer 5.99% and 6.35% depending on time frame, that
>still seems high (though it's much lower than the local bank).[/color]

I vote for traveling to the dealer that has the car you want.

Just because a dealer is 'nice' to you does not make them the dealer
you want to buy the car from.

My dealer here in Florida is 'nice', but I didn't buy my car from
them.


--

Scott in Florida

On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 23:24:12 -0700, "Brian" <brian@nospam.com> wrote:
[color=blue]
>Rav4 choices are sparse in SoCal. I can't find more than a dozen 3.5L
>limited trims in the immediate area. The few in driving distance lack
>leather or are painted some god awful color.
>
>The dealership said they could order one for me. Is this a legitimate way
>to buy a car? I heard some dealerships pretend to order and just wait/hope
>for the right inventory. The dealership wants $500 and a credit check, but
>no mention of final price. Seems like a pretty bleeping strange way to do
>business.
>
>Thanks.
>[/color]
FWIW, my experience was with a Subaru. I wanted a specific color,
Forester XT with certain options. As it turned out, with Subaru, the
"factory" order only goes as far as the port. When the right color
model came in, the options I wanted were port installed and the car
was shipped to the dealer.. It was about 4 weeks. The car came in with
less than 3 miles on it with all the shipping protective stuff intact.
(Las Vegas, NV dealer). I saw the car the same day it came off the
truck. Also, I dealt with the fleet manager, and had no hassles with
going back and forth. I had my pricing information and preapproved
financing (personal CU). The dealer offered his price which was an
acceptable profit %, so we had a deal.
Very pleasant way to do business.

On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 22:26:12 -0500, "Ray O"
<rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote:

[color=blue]
>
>Having spent my first year at the SF POE and 3 years in the distribution
>department, I do have some background in how vehicles are ordered, allocated
>to dealerships and then moving the vehicles from the factory to dealerships.
>
>Dealer cost on vehicles is FOB at the port of entry (POE) or inland port.
>The distributor (TMD or independents) pay the car carriers based on ICC
>mileage from the POE or inland port to the dealership. Some dealerships are
>literally 5 minutes away, while others are hundreds of miles away. The
>distributors average out the shipping charges and then charge the dealers an
>equalized destination charge so a dealer that is closer to the port does not
>have a cost advantage over one that is farther away.[/color]

I stand corrected - the distributor has the advantage and gets to
pocket some additional cash, not the close-in dealers. I can almost
guarantee that they round that averaged fee up a bit to be more in
their favor, especially when you weight the numbers for sales on the
coast vs far inland.

But I still wonder why there's no way for a close-to-the-port
dealer to send their own transport truck to the port and not pay the
(artificially inflated for them) destination charge at all...

Or just send over a van full of dealership employees with licenses,
a pickup with a "Gas Buggy" gasoline dispenser in the back, and a
stack of Dealer Plates. Put two gallons of gas in each car and a
dealer plate in the back window, and /drive/ them the three or five
miles back to the dealership... Oh, that's right - because it
"wouldn't be fair" to the distant dealers.

Something certainly smells a bit gamy there, but I can't quite put
my finger on what or who. ;-)

(The Teamsters Union might have something to say about it, in a "If
it leaves the docks a Union Brother must be doing the work, or we'll
shut the whole place down and Nobody gets their cars!" way, but we'll
save that for another discussion...)

--<< Bruce >>--