need some general guidance re prices (2007 I4 2WD Limited)

Hello all,

I'd appreciate some guidance about how much to pay for a RAV4. It's quite clear
there are plenty of experienced people here - I am a newbie when it comes to
buying cars.

Essentially, my questions boils down to this:

What's a good price for a 2007 2WD I4 Limited? I.e., how much would you consider
a good total price for a RAV4?
(all minus taxes and real dmv title/registration costs)

Is there some guideline I should apply for RAV4s (due to
popularity/availability/etc)?

Do I split the difference btw MSRP and Invoice? Or just use the Edmunds price as
my goal?

What is the best place to look up Invoice info on-line? Edmunds for instance
differs from carsDirect.com

Thanks a bunch for sharing your knowledge!

Can't wait to be going through all of this in 15 years again :-) [NOT!]

"EB" <ebonakDUH_@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:KrxZg.5795$Z46.3024@trndny05...[color=blue]
> Hello all,
>
> I'd appreciate some guidance about how much to pay for a RAV4. It's quite
> clear
> there are plenty of experienced people here - I am a newbie when it comes
> to
> buying cars.
>
> Essentially, my questions boils down to this:
>
> What's a good price for a 2007 2WD I4 Limited? I.e., how much would you
> consider
> a good total price for a RAV4?
> (all minus taxes and real dmv title/registration costs)
>
> Is there some guideline I should apply for RAV4s (due to
> popularity/availability/etc)?
>
> Do I split the difference btw MSRP and Invoice? Or just use the Edmunds
> price as
> my goal?
>
> What is the best place to look up Invoice info on-line? Edmunds for
> instance
> differs from carsDirect.com
>
> Thanks a bunch for sharing your knowledge!
>
> Can't wait to be going through all of this in 15 years again :-) [NOT!][/color]

I am not the most experienced at buying cars from dealerships (there are
some pretty nice perks when working for a car company) but I am familiar
with the sales process and how sales managers view the "deal" and have
wholesaled around 100,000 new cars over the years.

You will probably get a whole bunch of responses from people who consider
themselves experts at getting a great deal, and if everyone is to be
believed, not one male buyer has ever gotten a bad deal on a car. Everyone
will tell you that the dealer barely broke even or the dealer lost money
when they purchased their car, yet dealerships somehow manage to scrape by
and make a decent living.

One should remember that dealerships are businesses and are not non-profit
organizations that exist solely for the purpose of selling cars at a loss.
It is unrealistic to think that Joe the expert negotiator is so sharp that
he is going to pull one over on the dealership. IMHO, allowing a dealer to
make a $300 or $500 profit is an excellent deal for the purchaser,
considering that they probably have to invest over $20,000 for a vehicle
like the Rav 4, plus all of the other overhead that goes along with owning a
new car franchise. Average gross profit per new vehicle retailed is well
over $1,000, so skip extended warranties, rust and dust packages, pin
stripes, pre-paid maintenance deals, and stuff that didn't come from Toyota,
allow the dealer to make a reasonable profit on the front end so he doesn't
have to make it up on the back end. When the deal is done, establish a
relationship with the salesperson, send him lots of referrals, and when you
are ready for your next new car in 15 years, he will remember the hundreds
of referrals you gave him and give you a no-hassle good deal.

I've only bought 2 new vehicles from a dealership, but because I have been
sending him 10 ~15 customers a year for about 25 years, he extended to me
the same deal that TMD employees get in IL, and we were in and out in about
a half hour, since he had ordered the cars for us in advance and called us
when it was time to come get them.
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 17:53:41 -0500, "Ray O"
<rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote:
[color=blue]
>
>"EB" <ebonakDUH_@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:KrxZg.5795$Z46.3024@trndny05...[color=green]
>> Hello all,
>>
>> I'd appreciate some guidance about how much to pay for a RAV4. It's quite
>> clear
>> there are plenty of experienced people here - I am a newbie when it comes
>> to
>> buying cars.
>>
>> Essentially, my questions boils down to this:
>>
>> What's a good price for a 2007 2WD I4 Limited? I.e., how much would you
>> consider
>> a good total price for a RAV4?
>> (all minus taxes and real dmv title/registration costs)
>>
>> Is there some guideline I should apply for RAV4s (due to
>> popularity/availability/etc)?
>>
>> Do I split the difference btw MSRP and Invoice? Or just use the Edmunds
>> price as
>> my goal?
>>
>> What is the best place to look up Invoice info on-line? Edmunds for
>> instance
>> differs from carsDirect.com
>>
>> Thanks a bunch for sharing your knowledge!
>>
>> Can't wait to be going through all of this in 15 years again :-) [NOT!][/color]
>
>I am not the most experienced at buying cars from dealerships (there are
>some pretty nice perks when working for a car company) but I am familiar
>with the sales process and how sales managers view the "deal" and have
>wholesaled around 100,000 new cars over the years.
>
>You will probably get a whole bunch of responses from people who consider
>themselves experts at getting a great deal, and if everyone is to be
>believed, not one male buyer has ever gotten a bad deal on a car. Everyone
>will tell you that the dealer barely broke even or the dealer lost money
>when they purchased their car, yet dealerships somehow manage to scrape by
>and make a decent living.
>
>One should remember that dealerships are businesses and are not non-profit
>organizations that exist solely for the purpose of selling cars at a loss.
>It is unrealistic to think that Joe the expert negotiator is so sharp that
>he is going to pull one over on the dealership. IMHO, allowing a dealer to
>make a $300 or $500 profit is an excellent deal for the purchaser,
>considering that they probably have to invest over $20,000 for a vehicle
>like the Rav 4, plus all of the other overhead that goes along with owning a
>new car franchise. Average gross profit per new vehicle retailed is well
>over $1,000, so skip extended warranties, rust and dust packages, pin
>stripes, pre-paid maintenance deals, and stuff that didn't come from Toyota,
>allow the dealer to make a reasonable profit on the front end so he doesn't
>have to make it up on the back end. When the deal is done, establish a
>relationship with the salesperson, send him lots of referrals, and when you
>are ready for your next new car in 15 years, he will remember the hundreds
>of referrals you gave him and give you a no-hassle good deal.
>
>I've only bought 2 new vehicles from a dealership, but because I have been
>sending him 10 ~15 customers a year for about 25 years, he extended to me
>the same deal that TMD employees get in IL, and we were in and out in about
>a half hour, since he had ordered the cars for us in advance and called us
>when it was time to come get them.[/color]


Ray - AAA PLeeeese!!!!
Just how thick can it get. The dealer gets all his S*** on
consignment or credit to be paid at a future date.
Don't get sucked into feeling sorry for any scummy dealer or his
temporary help.
There is one - ONLY ONE price that matters and that is NET (total)
price to you in US$. Net plus government fees is the amount you
finance or pay. Calculating dealer profit etc. is BS. This has
NOTHING to do with you. Cosco or CR excellent price referrals are
typically NOT good prices for the consumer.

The best price is stock as is on the lot. Anything special will cost
you an arm and a leg. You can look for ads in papers and compare. You
can not improve on loss leaders in person. Perhaps on the phone.

KISS - just "keep it simple s*****" accept none of the smoke and
mirror 'standard' tactics. Somebody said to have them fax you the
total price - (so you can bring a check in the correct amount) and
prevent the scum from revising price when you get there. An excellent
idea IMHO.
Lots of luck.

AT

"A Troll" <t555hssdrw@nothingon.net> wrote in message
news:2cfdj25be9p5fedqi0ufhf59focp928pn4@4ax.com...[color=blue]
> On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 17:53:41 -0500, "Ray O"
> <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote:
>[color=green]
>>
>>"EB" <ebonakDUH_@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:KrxZg.5795$Z46.3024@trndny05...[color=darkred]
>>> Hello all,
>>>
>>> I'd appreciate some guidance about how much to pay for a RAV4. It's
>>> quite
>>> clear
>>> there are plenty of experienced people here - I am a newbie when it
>>> comes
>>> to
>>> buying cars.
>>>
>>> Essentially, my questions boils down to this:
>>>
>>> What's a good price for a 2007 2WD I4 Limited? I.e., how much would you
>>> consider
>>> a good total price for a RAV4?
>>> (all minus taxes and real dmv title/registration costs)
>>>
>>> Is there some guideline I should apply for RAV4s (due to
>>> popularity/availability/etc)?
>>>
>>> Do I split the difference btw MSRP and Invoice? Or just use the Edmunds
>>> price as
>>> my goal?
>>>
>>> What is the best place to look up Invoice info on-line? Edmunds for
>>> instance
>>> differs from carsDirect.com
>>>
>>> Thanks a bunch for sharing your knowledge!
>>>
>>> Can't wait to be going through all of this in 15 years again :-) [NOT!][/color]
>>
>>I am not the most experienced at buying cars from dealerships (there are
>>some pretty nice perks when working for a car company) but I am familiar
>>with the sales process and how sales managers view the "deal" and have
>>wholesaled around 100,000 new cars over the years.
>>
>>You will probably get a whole bunch of responses from people who consider
>>themselves experts at getting a great deal, and if everyone is to be
>>believed, not one male buyer has ever gotten a bad deal on a car.
>>Everyone
>>will tell you that the dealer barely broke even or the dealer lost money
>>when they purchased their car, yet dealerships somehow manage to scrape by
>>and make a decent living.
>>
>>One should remember that dealerships are businesses and are not non-profit
>>organizations that exist solely for the purpose of selling cars at a loss.
>>It is unrealistic to think that Joe the expert negotiator is so sharp that
>>he is going to pull one over on the dealership. IMHO, allowing a dealer
>>to
>>make a $300 or $500 profit is an excellent deal for the purchaser,
>>considering that they probably have to invest over $20,000 for a vehicle
>>like the Rav 4, plus all of the other overhead that goes along with owning
>>a
>>new car franchise. Average gross profit per new vehicle retailed is well
>>over $1,000, so skip extended warranties, rust and dust packages, pin
>>stripes, pre-paid maintenance deals, and stuff that didn't come from
>>Toyota,
>>allow the dealer to make a reasonable profit on the front end so he
>>doesn't
>>have to make it up on the back end. When the deal is done, establish a
>>relationship with the salesperson, send him lots of referrals, and when
>>you
>>are ready for your next new car in 15 years, he will remember the hundreds
>>of referrals you gave him and give you a no-hassle good deal.
>>
>>I've only bought 2 new vehicles from a dealership, but because I have been
>>sending him 10 ~15 customers a year for about 25 years, he extended to me
>>the same deal that TMD employees get in IL, and we were in and out in
>>about
>>a half hour, since he had ordered the cars for us in advance and called us
>>when it was time to come get them.[/color]
>
>
> Ray - AAA PLeeeese!!!!
> Just how thick can it get. The dealer gets all his S*** on
> consignment or credit to be paid at a future date.[/color]

The dealer does not get anything from the automaker on consignment.
According to the terms of the franchise agreement, the dealer must maintain
a line of credit, and the dealer's bank must transfer funds electronically
when the vehicles are invoiced and the appropriate amount is added to the
dealer's flooring. I am not aware of any finance institutions that loan
money to businesses interest-free so the dealer starts paying juice the
moment the automaker's distribution gets notice that the vehicles have left
the POE. When a vehicle is sold, most finance institutions require the
vehicle to be paid off by the end of the next business day.

If you assume that the dealership is paying prime or a little below, you can
calculate what it costs the dealership per day to keep a vehicle in
inventory. Of course, that works both ways, and it is to the dealer's
advantage to sell a vehicle sooner rather than later because he will make
more money on a car that has been in his inventory for a day than one that
has been in his inventory for a month.
[color=blue]
> Don't get sucked into feeling sorry for any scummy dealer or his
> temporary help.[/color]

I feel no sorrow for the dealership, I'm just pointing out that people
forget that dealers are in business to make a profit, not pass cars through
their lot for the good of the public. A gross profit of $500 on a car that
costs the dealer $20,000 is 2.5% of sales. What is the gross profit a a
medium Coke at McDonalds? Why don't people haggle over something with a
markup in the hundreds of percent?
[color=blue]
> There is one - ONLY ONE price that matters and that is NET (total)
> price to you in US$. Net plus government fees is the amount you
> finance or pay. Calculating dealer profit etc. is BS. This has
> NOTHING to do with you. Cosco or CR excellent price referrals are
> typically NOT good prices for the consumer.[/color]

That is the point I was trying to make - forget about how much over invoice
and just get the best deal.[color=blue]
>
> The best price is stock as is on the lot. Anything special will cost
> you an arm and a leg. You can look for ads in papers and compare. You
> can not improve on loss leaders in person. Perhaps on the phone.[/color]

It depends on your definition of "special." Having to trade vehicles with
another dealer costs the originating dealer money, which will get passed on
to the buyer. Ordering from future production does not cost the dealer any
extra money, and if the customer pays for it the day it arrives, then the
dealership will actually make more money than if it sat on the lot for a
month.[color=blue]
>
> KISS - just "keep it simple s*****" accept none of the smoke and
> mirror 'standard' tactics. Somebody said to have them fax you the
> total price - (so you can bring a check in the correct amount) and
> prevent the scum from revising price when you get there. An excellent
> idea IMHO.
> Lots of luck.
>
> AT[/color]

Also, pass on the paint protector, rust proofing, upholstery protection, and
non-factory alarm packages, because this where markup rivals Cokes at
McDonald's.
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 23:36:04 -0500, "Ray O"
<rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote:
[color=blue]
>
>"A Troll" <t555hssdrw@nothingon.net> wrote in message
>news:2cfdj25be9p5fedqi0ufhf59focp928pn4@4ax.com...[color=green]
>> On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 17:53:41 -0500, "Ray O"
>> <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote:
>>[color=darkred]
>>>
>>>"EB" <ebonakDUH_@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>news:KrxZg.5795$Z46.3024@trndny05...
>>>> Hello all,
>>>>
>>>> I'd appreciate some guidance about how much to pay for a RAV4. It's
>>>> quite
>>>> clear
>>>> there are plenty of experienced people here - I am a newbie when it
>>>> comes
>>>> to
>>>> buying cars.
>>>>
>>>> Essentially, my questions boils down to this:
>>>>
>>>> What's a good price for a 2007 2WD I4 Limited? I.e., how much would you
>>>> consider
>>>> a good total price for a RAV4?
>>>> (all minus taxes and real dmv title/registration costs)
>>>>
>>>> Is there some guideline I should apply for RAV4s (due to
>>>> popularity/availability/etc)?
>>>>
>>>> Do I split the difference btw MSRP and Invoice? Or just use the Edmunds
>>>> price as
>>>> my goal?
>>>>
>>>> What is the best place to look up Invoice info on-line? Edmunds for
>>>> instance
>>>> differs from carsDirect.com
>>>>
>>>> Thanks a bunch for sharing your knowledge!
>>>>
>>>> Can't wait to be going through all of this in 15 years again :-) [NOT!]
>>>
>>>I am not the most experienced at buying cars from dealerships (there are
>>>some pretty nice perks when working for a car company) but I am familiar
>>>with the sales process and how sales managers view the "deal" and have
>>>wholesaled around 100,000 new cars over the years.
>>>
>>>You will probably get a whole bunch of responses from people who consider
>>>themselves experts at getting a great deal, and if everyone is to be
>>>believed, not one male buyer has ever gotten a bad deal on a car.
>>>Everyone
>>>will tell you that the dealer barely broke even or the dealer lost money
>>>when they purchased their car, yet dealerships somehow manage to scrape by
>>>and make a decent living.
>>>
>>>One should remember that dealerships are businesses and are not non-profit
>>>organizations that exist solely for the purpose of selling cars at a loss.
>>>It is unrealistic to think that Joe the expert negotiator is so sharp that
>>>he is going to pull one over on the dealership. IMHO, allowing a dealer
>>>to
>>>make a $300 or $500 profit is an excellent deal for the purchaser,
>>>considering that they probably have to invest over $20,000 for a vehicle
>>>like the Rav 4, plus all of the other overhead that goes along with owning
>>>a
>>>new car franchise. Average gross profit per new vehicle retailed is well
>>>over $1,000, so skip extended warranties, rust and dust packages, pin
>>>stripes, pre-paid maintenance deals, and stuff that didn't come from
>>>Toyota,
>>>allow the dealer to make a reasonable profit on the front end so he
>>>doesn't
>>>have to make it up on the back end. When the deal is done, establish a
>>>relationship with the salesperson, send him lots of referrals, and when
>>>you
>>>are ready for your next new car in 15 years, he will remember the hundreds
>>>of referrals you gave him and give you a no-hassle good deal.
>>>
>>>I've only bought 2 new vehicles from a dealership, but because I have been
>>>sending him 10 ~15 customers a year for about 25 years, he extended to me
>>>the same deal that TMD employees get in IL, and we were in and out in
>>>about
>>>a half hour, since he had ordered the cars for us in advance and called us
>>>when it was time to come get them.[/color]
>>
>>
>> Ray - AAA PLeeeese!!!!
>> Just how thick can it get. The dealer gets all his S*** on
>> consignment or credit to be paid at a future date.[/color]
>
>The dealer does not get anything from the automaker on consignment.
>According to the terms of the franchise agreement, the dealer must maintain
>a line of credit, and the dealer's bank must transfer funds electronically
>when the vehicles are invoiced and the appropriate amount is added to the
>dealer's flooring. I am not aware of any finance institutions that loan
>money to businesses interest-free so the dealer starts paying juice the
>moment the automaker's distribution gets notice that the vehicles have left
>the POE. When a vehicle is sold, most finance institutions require the
>vehicle to be paid off by the end of the next business day.
>
>If you assume that the dealership is paying prime or a little below, you can
>calculate what it costs the dealership per day to keep a vehicle in
>inventory. Of course, that works both ways, and it is to the dealer's
>advantage to sell a vehicle sooner rather than later because he will make
>more money on a car that has been in his inventory for a day than one that
>has been in his inventory for a month.
>[color=green]
>> Don't get sucked into feeling sorry for any scummy dealer or his
>> temporary help.[/color]
>
>I feel no sorrow for the dealership, I'm just pointing out that people
>forget that dealers are in business to make a profit, not pass cars through
>their lot for the good of the public. A gross profit of $500 on a car that
>costs the dealer $20,000 is 2.5% of sales. What is the gross profit a a
>medium Coke at McDonalds? Why don't people haggle over something with a
>markup in the hundreds of percent?
>[color=green]
>> There is one - ONLY ONE price that matters and that is NET (total)
>> price to you in US$. Net plus government fees is the amount you
>> finance or pay. Calculating dealer profit etc. is BS. This has
>> NOTHING to do with you. Cosco or CR excellent price referrals are
>> typically NOT good prices for the consumer.[/color]
>
>That is the point I was trying to make - forget about how much over invoice
>and just get the best deal.[color=green]
>>
>> The best price is stock as is on the lot. Anything special will cost
>> you an arm and a leg. You can look for ads in papers and compare. You
>> can not improve on loss leaders in person. Perhaps on the phone.[/color]
>
>It depends on your definition of "special." Having to trade vehicles with
>another dealer costs the originating dealer money, which will get passed on
>to the buyer. Ordering from future production does not cost the dealer any
>extra money, and if the customer pays for it the day it arrives, then the
>dealership will actually make more money than if it sat on the lot for a
>month.[color=green]
>>
>> KISS - just "keep it simple s*****" accept none of the smoke and
>> mirror 'standard' tactics. Somebody said to have them fax you the
>> total price - (so you can bring a check in the correct amount) and
>> prevent the scum from revising price when you get there. An excellent
>> idea IMHO.
>> Lots of luck.
>>
>> AT[/color]
>
>Also, pass on the paint protector, rust proofing, upholstery protection, and
>non-factory alarm packages, because this where markup rivals Cokes at
>McDonald's.[/color]


I'm sure - no I know we all have problems.
My whole point is that business should not be based on lies, deception
and methods that are generally regarded as unethical. That well known
shell game of funds that pass back and forth between the dealer and
factory is well known. Once again it is only the net amount that
matters. Auto dealerships are known to be very lucrative money
makers.
Why should the customer be dragged into ALL the multitude of problems
that any dealer or business has. Many people seem to think so or else
business practices would change drastically.
On the other hand can you imagine if every customer insisted on
'dumping' all his personal problems and just how hard it was to make
enough money for the down payment etc. etc.

AT

Ray O wrote:[color=blue]
> "A Troll" <t555hssdrw@nothingon.net> wrote in message
> news:2cfdj25be9p5fedqi0ufhf59focp928pn4@4ax.com...[color=green]
>> On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 17:53:41 -0500, "Ray O"
>> <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote:
>>[color=darkred]
>>> "EB" <ebonakDUH_@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:KrxZg.5795$Z46.3024@trndny05...
>>>> Hello all,
>>>>
>>>> I'd appreciate some guidance about how much to pay for a RAV4. It's
>>>> quite
>>>> clear
>>>> there are plenty of experienced people here - I am a newbie when it
>>>> comes
>>>> to
>>>> buying cars.
>>>>
>>>> Essentially, my questions boils down to this:
>>>>
>>>> What's a good price for a 2007 2WD I4 Limited? I.e., how much would you
>>>> consider
>>>> a good total price for a RAV4?
>>>> (all minus taxes and real dmv title/registration costs)
>>>>
>>>> Is there some guideline I should apply for RAV4s (due to
>>>> popularity/availability/etc)?
>>>>
>>>> Do I split the difference btw MSRP and Invoice? Or just use the Edmunds
>>>> price as
>>>> my goal?
>>>>
>>>> What is the best place to look up Invoice info on-line? Edmunds for
>>>> instance
>>>> differs from carsDirect.com
>>>>
>>>> Thanks a bunch for sharing your knowledge!
>>>>
>>>> Can't wait to be going through all of this in 15 years again :-) [NOT!]
>>> I am not the most experienced at buying cars from dealerships (there are
>>> some pretty nice perks when working for a car company) but I am familiar
>>> with the sales process and how sales managers view the "deal" and have
>>> wholesaled around 100,000 new cars over the years.
>>>
>>> You will probably get a whole bunch of responses from people who consider
>>> themselves experts at getting a great deal, and if everyone is to be
>>> believed, not one male buyer has ever gotten a bad deal on a car.
>>> Everyone
>>> will tell you that the dealer barely broke even or the dealer lost money
>>> when they purchased their car, yet dealerships somehow manage to scrape by
>>> and make a decent living.
>>>
>>> One should remember that dealerships are businesses and are not non-profit
>>> organizations that exist solely for the purpose of selling cars at a loss.
>>> It is unrealistic to think that Joe the expert negotiator is so sharp that
>>> he is going to pull one over on the dealership. IMHO, allowing a dealer
>>> to
>>> make a $300 or $500 profit is an excellent deal for the purchaser,
>>> considering that they probably have to invest over $20,000 for a vehicle
>>> like the Rav 4, plus all of the other overhead that goes along with owning
>>> a
>>> new car franchise. Average gross profit per new vehicle retailed is well
>>> over $1,000, so skip extended warranties, rust and dust packages, pin
>>> stripes, pre-paid maintenance deals, and stuff that didn't come from
>>> Toyota,
>>> allow the dealer to make a reasonable profit on the front end so he
>>> doesn't
>>> have to make it up on the back end. When the deal is done, establish a
>>> relationship with the salesperson, send him lots of referrals, and when
>>> you
>>> are ready for your next new car in 15 years, he will remember the hundreds
>>> of referrals you gave him and give you a no-hassle good deal.
>>>
>>> I've only bought 2 new vehicles from a dealership, but because I have been
>>> sending him 10 ~15 customers a year for about 25 years, he extended to me
>>> the same deal that TMD employees get in IL, and we were in and out in
>>> about
>>> a half hour, since he had ordered the cars for us in advance and called us
>>> when it was time to come get them.[/color]
>>
>> Ray - AAA PLeeeese!!!!
>> Just how thick can it get. The dealer gets all his S*** on
>> consignment or credit to be paid at a future date.[/color]
>
> The dealer does not get anything from the automaker on consignment.
> According to the terms of the franchise agreement, the dealer must maintain
> a line of credit, and the dealer's bank must transfer funds electronically
> when the vehicles are invoiced and the appropriate amount is added to the
> dealer's flooring. I am not aware of any finance institutions that loan
> money to businesses interest-free so the dealer starts paying juice the
> moment the automaker's distribution gets notice that the vehicles have left
> the POE. When a vehicle is sold, most finance institutions require the
> vehicle to be paid off by the end of the next business day.
>
> If you assume that the dealership is paying prime or a little below, you can
> calculate what it costs the dealership per day to keep a vehicle in
> inventory. Of course, that works both ways, and it is to the dealer's
> advantage to sell a vehicle sooner rather than later because he will make
> more money on a car that has been in his inventory for a day than one that
> has been in his inventory for a month.
>[color=green]
>> Don't get sucked into feeling sorry for any scummy dealer or his
>> temporary help.[/color]
>
> I feel no sorrow for the dealership, I'm just pointing out that people
> forget that dealers are in business to make a profit, not pass cars through
> their lot for the good of the public. A gross profit of $500 on a car that
> costs the dealer $20,000 is 2.5% of sales. What is the gross profit a a
> medium Coke at McDonalds? Why don't people haggle over something with a
> markup in the hundreds of percent?[/color]

That $500 (2.5%) doesn't sound like much. However, if the dealer turns
that $20,000 over 12 times a year, that's a 34.5% annual return - not
bad! I'm not sure how typical that is (the 12 times a year), but it
must be in the ballpark.

I shudder when I think about the return on investment for hot new models
the dealer doesn't hold for more than a day or two and adds a dealer
markup to the suggested retail :(

Arthur Hass
[color=blue][color=green]
>> There is one - ONLY ONE price that matters and that is NET (total)
>> price to you in US$. Net plus government fees is the amount you
>> finance or pay. Calculating dealer profit etc. is BS. This has
>> NOTHING to do with you. Cosco or CR excellent price referrals are
>> typically NOT good prices for the consumer.[/color]
>
> That is the point I was trying to make - forget about how much over invoice
> and just get the best deal.[color=green]
>> The best price is stock as is on the lot. Anything special will cost
>> you an arm and a leg. You can look for ads in papers and compare. You
>> can not improve on loss leaders in person. Perhaps on the phone.[/color]
>
> It depends on your definition of "special." Having to trade vehicles with
> another dealer costs the originating dealer money, which will get passed on
> to the buyer. Ordering from future production does not cost the dealer any
> extra money, and if the customer pays for it the day it arrives, then the
> dealership will actually make more money than if it sat on the lot for a
> month.[color=green]
>> KISS - just "keep it simple s*****" accept none of the smoke and
>> mirror 'standard' tactics. Somebody said to have them fax you the
>> total price - (so you can bring a check in the correct amount) and
>> prevent the scum from revising price when you get there. An excellent
>> idea IMHO.
>> Lots of luck.
>>
>> AT[/color]
>
> Also, pass on the paint protector, rust proofing, upholstery protection, and
> non-factory alarm packages, because this where markup rivals Cokes at
> McDonald's.[/color]

I would go to Consumer Reports:

[url]http://tinyurl.com/y9t8rm[/url]

Order the Rav4 report for $14 (it contains all the models, options,
packages, etc.). Read all the info and determine the "dealer cost" for
the car you want with the exact options you are getting (the report has
retail & dealer cost). Be sure to subtract dealer hold-back and any
current national/regional sales incentives.

This number will be pretty close with the exception of the dealer
incentives - Cash the dealer gets at the end of the quarter (or month
maybe) for reaching quotas - maybe another 1-4% lower than the cost you
calculate depending on the dealer.

With this number, you will have a pretty good idea of the dealer profit
margin when they make an offer. Of course, the dealer has to make a
profit. You'll have to pay at least $500 over your calculated dealer
cost - maybe $1000, maybe $2000. However, you will at least have a
pretty good idea of what you are dealing with. Paying more than
$1000-2000 over dealer cost is not a very good deal in my opinion.
Definitely try more than one dealer.

Hope this helps. I'm pretty sure this response will attract plenty of
disagreement.

Arthur Hass

EB wrote:[color=blue]
> Hello all,
>
> I'd appreciate some guidance about how much to pay for a RAV4. It's
> quite clear
> there are plenty of experienced people here - I am a newbie when it
> comes to
> buying cars.
>
> Essentially, my questions boils down to this:
>
> What's a good price for a 2007 2WD I4 Limited? I.e., how much would you
> consider
> a good total price for a RAV4?
> (all minus taxes and real dmv title/registration costs)
>
> Is there some guideline I should apply for RAV4s (due to
> popularity/availability/etc)?
>
> Do I split the difference btw MSRP and Invoice? Or just use the Edmunds
> price as
> my goal?
>
> What is the best place to look up Invoice info on-line? Edmunds for
> instance
> differs from carsDirect.com
>
> Thanks a bunch for sharing your knowledge!
>
> Can't wait to be going through all of this in 15 years again :-) [NOT!][/color]

EB wrote:[color=blue]
> Hello all,
>
> I'd appreciate some guidance about how much to pay for a RAV4. It's quite clear
> there are plenty of experienced people here - I am a newbie when it comes to
> buying cars.
>
>[/color]
Yeah, the Edmunds TMV is a good general indicator but there are
regional variations. CARMAX sells new Toyotas so you can check, on
line, their RAV4 prices. If you plan to use the dealer for service, you
may want to wander over to the service desk and check their prices and
policies for routine maintenance. You may find it pays to buy from the
dealer whose Service Dept. offers you the best value.

ACAR wrote:[color=blue]
> You may find it pays to buy from the
> dealer whose Service Dept. offers you the best value.[/color]

Where you bought the car makes absolutely no difference on service care.
Any service department of any dealership will take your money or
handle a warranty claim.

It hasn't ever mattered for me, and my cars don't have dealer
advertising or logos on them. Besides, I only use dealerships for
warranty work and to purchase OEM parts. I do my own routine
maintenance (with Toyota parts) and use a trusted indie shop (20+ year
ex-Toyota <G>) for out of warranty problems.

Work your best deal on a purchase, then have the car serviced at the
shop you like best.

Ray O wrote:[color=blue]
> "EB" <ebonakDUH_@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:KrxZg.5795$Z46.3024@trndny05...[color=green]
>> Hello all,
>>
>> I'd appreciate some guidance about how much to pay for a RAV4. It's quite
>> clear
>> there are plenty of experienced people here - I am a newbie when it comes[/color]
>
> You will probably get a whole bunch of responses from people who consider
> themselves experts at getting a great deal, and if everyone is to be
> believed, not one male buyer has ever gotten a bad deal on a car. Everyone
> will tell you that the dealer barely broke even or the dealer lost money
> when they purchased their car, yet dealerships somehow manage to scrape by
> and make a decent living.[/color]

hehe .. yes, that seems to be the prevailing story, at least from what
I hear from friends :-)
[color=blue]
> IMHO, allowing a dealer to
> make a $300 or $500 profit is an excellent deal for the purchaser,
> considering that they probably have to invest over $20,000 for a vehicle
> like the Rav 4, plus all of the other overhead that goes along with owning a
> new car franchise.[/color]

Agreed, ideally both sides would be happy with the outcome (or at least
satisfied). The problem is that terms are so convoluted and hidden behind
all sorts of clauses/fees etc .. that some of the dealings are almost
borderline deceptive.
[color=blue]
> When the deal is done, establish a
> relationship with the salesperson, send him lots of referrals, and when you
> are ready for your next new car in 15 years, he will remember the hundreds
> of referrals you gave him and give you a no-hassle good deal.[/color]

Well .. it looks like I will be moving next summer, so the long-term thing
will not work in this case, but it's good advice. Esp given your own experience
below.

Thanks!

eb
[color=blue]
>
> I've only bought 2 new vehicles from a dealership, but because I have been
> sending him 10 ~15 customers a year for about 25 years, he extended to me
> the same deal that TMD employees get in IL, and we were in and out in about
> a half hour, since he had ordered the cars for us in advance and called us
> when it was time to come get them.[/color]

A Troll wrote:[color=blue]
>
> KISS - just "keep it simple s*****" accept none of the smoke and
> mirror 'standard' tactics.[/color]

agreed, but they make it very very hard to get some hard-and fast
information from the dealer. One I was talking to on the phone kept
trying to invite me to her dealership to talk, even though I could
hear her loud and clearly on the phone :-) .. and they didn't even
have the car I'm interested on the lot.

She said she would e-mail me a price, never happened. As soon as I
can figure out what a reasonable price is, I will buy the car, but
not there.
[color=blue]
> Somebody said to have them fax you the
> total price - (so you can bring a check in the correct amount) and
> prevent the scum from revising price when you get there. An excellent
> idea IMHO.[/color]

Yes, that sounds great .. *if* they are willing to do it.

I got lots of internet quotes that had disclaimers on them, or stated
plus xxx, yyyy, zzz, (ie customary = $250 doc fee, etc). That doesn't
help me, even though I requested a total out-of-the-door price.

They really wear you down and make it a tedious and difficult process.
Of course, now that I have spent all this time and read and learned a
lot about how this goes, I could probably buy a new car in a fraction
of the time it has taken me to do this one. It might even be fun (well,
now I'm getting clearly carried away :-)

eb

Arthur Hass wrote:[color=blue]
> I would go to Consumer Reports:
>
> [url]http://tinyurl.com/y9t8rm[/url]
>
> Order the Rav4 report for $14 (it contains all the models, options,
> packages, etc.). Read all the info and determine the "dealer cost" for
> the car you want with the exact options you are getting (the report has
> retail & dealer cost). Be sure to subtract dealer hold-back and any
> current national/regional sales incentives.[/color]

Thanks for the URL .. I wonder if the numbers be much different from what I
found on say Edmunds?
[color=blue]
> With this number, you will have a pretty good idea of the dealer profit
> margin when they make an offer. Of course, the dealer has to make a
> profit. You'll have to pay at least $500 over your calculated dealer
> cost - maybe $1000, maybe $2000. However, you will at least have a
> pretty good idea of what you are dealing with. Paying more than
> $1000-2000 over dealer cost is not a very good deal in my opinion.
> Definitely try more than one dealer.[/color]

Yup, in fact I am going to visit another dealer today, who has not
responded to e-mails recently, this after spamming me with tons of
unrelated mails to my initial inquiry. I will use this dealer to get
an idea of what his rock bottom price is and then have that help me
determine if my current offer is in the ballpark or not.

At this point I'm pretty tired of the whole process. I don't mind them
making a profit, I just don't want to be taken advantage of. I think
the whole process is geared to just exactly that.

Thanks,

eb

ACAR wrote:[color=blue]
> EB wrote:[color=green]
>> Hello all,
>>
>> I'd appreciate some guidance about how much to pay for a RAV4. It's quite clear
>> there are plenty of experienced people here - I am a newbie when it comes to
>> buying cars.
>>
>>[/color]
> Yeah, the Edmunds TMV is a good general indicator but there are
> regional variations. CARMAX sells new Toyotas so you can check, on
> line, their RAV4 prices.[/color]

Thanks, I'll do that .. I have visited so many web sites, I'm not
even sure if I've been there ;-)

I will be moving next summer, so the dealership while useful/important
for the deal and initial service, will not be much of a factor past
that point.

Thanks!

eb

A Troll wrote:[color=blue]
>
> I'm sure - no I know we all have problems.
> My whole point is that business should not be based on lies, deception
> and methods that are generally regarded as unethical.[/color]

Ok, this is only my 3rd car, I buy one every 13-15 years :-)

The first one a cousin of mine bought for me new (I had just arrived
in the US and didn't even speak English well enough yet) - a tiny
Honda Civic.

The next one (current 91 Corolla Wagon) I bought with an experienced
friend at the side.

So in both cases I was somewhat insulated from the whole process.

However, this time it's me, and to be honest I am just shocked that this
process even exists. It seems so convoluted and archaic, I wonder how it has
survived this long. It seems like the way business might have been
conducted in the middle ages by the free masons (no offense intended to
any free masons reading this -- heck I don't even really know who
free masons are). But you get my point.

They have a product to sell, why can't there be a simple price associated
with it, incl. all fees etc.

When I go and buy a gallon of milk, do I have to worry about subsidies,
transportation costs etc? No, there's one price on the product. If I like
it I can buy it, if not I can *easily* compare prices.

The car buying process in contrast is obfuscated to the max, designed to
confuse and IMHO to take advantage of the buyer.

My questions to everyone:

- do you know if cars are sold this way in Japan and W. Europe?

- as far as the US, do you ever see this changing?? I believe Saturn who had
tried no-haggle one-prices has since gone back to the old model of
obfuscation/negotiation etc..

eb

EB wrote:[color=blue]
> Arthur Hass wrote:[color=green]
>> I would go to Consumer Reports:
>>
>> [url]http://tinyurl.com/y9t8rm[/url]
>>
>> Order the Rav4 report for $14 (it contains all the models, options,
>> packages, etc.). Read all the info and determine the "dealer cost"
>> for the car you want with the exact options you are getting (the
>> report has retail & dealer cost). Be sure to subtract dealer
>> hold-back and any current national/regional sales incentives.[/color]
>
> Thanks for the URL .. I wonder if the numbers be much different from what I
> found on say Edmunds?[/color]

They are nearly identical. However, mine are two months old.

AEH
[color=blue][color=green]
>> With this number, you will have a pretty good idea of the dealer
>> profit margin when they make an offer. Of course, the dealer has to
>> make a profit. You'll have to pay at least $500 over your calculated
>> dealer cost - maybe $1000, maybe $2000. However, you will at least
>> have a pretty good idea of what you are dealing with. Paying more
>> than $1000-2000 over dealer cost is not a very good deal in my
>> opinion. Definitely try more than one dealer.[/color]
>
> Yup, in fact I am going to visit another dealer today, who has not
> responded to e-mails recently, this after spamming me with tons of
> unrelated mails to my initial inquiry. I will use this dealer to get
> an idea of what his rock bottom price is and then have that help me
> determine if my current offer is in the ballpark or not.
>
> At this point I'm pretty tired of the whole process. I don't mind them
> making a profit, I just don't want to be taken advantage of. I think
> the whole process is geared to just exactly that.
>
> Thanks,
>
> eb[/color]