the end of the story of the 'check engine' light. Ping Ray O

As some of you may remember, I posted last week about my 'check engine'
light going on in my 03 Avalon.
So yesterday I had my appointment with the local Toyota dealer to take care
of it.
(I had gone to an Autozone to borrow their code reader, and found three
error codes 0441, 0442, and 0446, which all related to the evaporative
emission control system. Ray O suggested that it might be something to do
with the charcoal canister or its valve.
When I got the car back yesterday, they had done a test to determine whether
there was a leak or other anomaly in the Evap system, but found none. They
surmised that in the recent past, someone had left the gas cap slightly
loose, and that's what turned on the check engine light.
I had already screwed the gas cap on tighter, making the 'ratchety' sound
with it, but it had already been tight...and the check engine light had
already appeared at that time.
Oddly, I'm the only one who fills the tank on that car, and I always make
sure that the cap is tight by giving another turn or two to the cap after I
hear it ratcheting.
So, long story short, that was the only explanation they could give, and it
cost me one hour's labor....$88.00
(wow, I wish I could earn $88 an hour!)
In future, if the light comes on again, I'll give the gas cap another twist,
and go to Auto Zone for their code reader and turn the check engine light
OFF....and see if that fixes it. I don't need any more expensive lessons.

mack, 10/25/2006, 2:53:57 PM, <12jvcm8dc75ku5f@corp.supernews.com>
wrote:
[color=blue]
> As some of you may remember, I posted last week about my 'check
> engine' light going on in my 03 Avalon. So yesterday I had my
> appointment with the local Toyota dealer to take care of it. (I had
> gone to an Autozone to borrow their code reader, and found three
> error codes 0441, 0442, and 0446, which all related to the
> evaporative emission control system. Ray O suggested that it might
> be something to do with the charcoal canister or its valve. When I
> got the car back yesterday, they had done a test to determine whether
> there was a leak or other anomaly in the Evap system, but found none.
> They surmised that in the recent past, someone had left the gas cap
> slightly loose, and that's what turned on the check engine light. I
> had already screwed the gas cap on tighter, making the 'ratchety'
> sound with it, but it had already been tight...and the check engine
> light had already appeared at that time. Oddly, I'm the only one who
> fills the tank on that car, and I always make sure that the cap is
> tight by giving another turn or two to the cap after I hear it
> ratcheting. So, long story short, that was the only explanation they
> could give, and it cost me one hour's labor....$88.00 (wow, I wish I
> could earn $88 an hour!) In future, if the light comes on again, I'll
> give the gas cap another twist, and go to Auto Zone for their code
> reader and turn the check engine light OFF....and see if that fixes
> it. I don't need any more expensive lessons.[/color]

This is just another example of Toyotas fixing themselves!

"mack" <mackerel@dslextreme.com> wrote in message
news:12jvcm8dc75ku5f@corp.supernews.com...[color=blue]
> As some of you may remember, I posted last week about my 'check engine'
> light going on in my 03 Avalon.
> So yesterday I had my appointment with the local Toyota dealer to take
> care of it.
> (I had gone to an Autozone to borrow their code reader, and found three
> error codes 0441, 0442, and 0446, which all related to the evaporative
> emission control system. Ray O suggested that it might be something to
> do with the charcoal canister or its valve.
> When I got the car back yesterday, they had done a test to determine
> whether there was a leak or other anomaly in the Evap system, but found
> none. They surmised that in the recent past, someone had left the gas
> cap slightly loose, and that's what turned on the check engine light.
> I had already screwed the gas cap on tighter, making the 'ratchety' sound
> with it, but it had already been tight...and the check engine light had
> already appeared at that time.
> Oddly, I'm the only one who fills the tank on that car, and I always make
> sure that the cap is tight by giving another turn or two to the cap after
> I hear it ratcheting.
> So, long story short, that was the only explanation they could give, and
> it cost me one hour's labor....$88.00
> (wow, I wish I could earn $88 an hour!)
> In future, if the light comes on again, I'll give the gas cap another
> twist, and go to Auto Zone for their code reader and turn the check engine
> light OFF....and see if that fixes it. I don't need any more expensive
> lessons.[/color]

Keep your copy of that repair order because I do not think the problem is a
loose gas cap. Next time the check engine light (known as a malfunction
indicator light, or MIL) comes on, do not clear the codes. Instead, take it
to the dealer for them to read the codes directly.

A loose gas cap is more likely to cause diagnostic trouble code (DTC) P0440,
which is "evaporative emission control system malfunction; P0442 Evaporative
Emission Control System Leak Detected (small leak); or P0455 Evaporative
Emission Control System Leak Detected (gross leak). After refueling, always
tighten the gas cap until you hear it clicking/ratcheting several times.

The technical service bulletin (TSB) seems to address the problem you are
having. I pasted the TSB summary below, and next time you visit the
dealership, I would politely ask if the TSB applies to the condition you are
experiencing.

TSB EG 013-03 (revised) issued 12/5/2003 - 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003 Toyota
Avalon, Camry & Solara, 2001, 2002, 2003 Sienna. Under certain driving
conditions, some 2000-2003 model year Avalon, Camry (NAP only) and Solara
vehicles, and some 2001-2003 model year Sienna vehicles may exhibit a M.I.L.
"ON" with DTC(s) P0440, P0441 and/or P0446 stored due to an inoperative
Canister Closed Valve Vacuum Switching Valve (CCV VSV). The CCV assembly
process has been changed to correct this condition


--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

"Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote in message
news:71153$453fbd9e$44a4a10d$26587@msgid.meganewsservers.com...[color=blue]
>
> "mack" <mackerel@dslextreme.com> wrote in message
> news:12jvcm8dc75ku5f@corp.supernews.com...[color=green]
>> As some of you may remember, I posted last week about my 'check engine'
>> light going on in my 03 Avalon.
>> So yesterday I had my appointment with the local Toyota dealer to take
>> care of it.
>> (I had gone to an Autozone to borrow their code reader, and found three
>> error codes 0441, 0442, and 0446, which all related to the evaporative
>> emission control system. Ray O suggested that it might be something to
>> do with the charcoal canister or its valve.
>> When I got the car back yesterday, they had done a test to determine
>> whether there was a leak or other anomaly in the Evap system, but found
>> none. They surmised that in the recent past, someone had left the gas
>> cap slightly loose, and that's what turned on the check engine light.
>> I had already screwed the gas cap on tighter, making the 'ratchety' sound
>> with it, but it had already been tight...and the check engine light had
>> already appeared at that time.
>> Oddly, I'm the only one who fills the tank on that car, and I always make
>> sure that the cap is tight by giving another turn or two to the cap after
>> I hear it ratcheting.
>> So, long story short, that was the only explanation they could give, and
>> it cost me one hour's labor....$88.00
>> (wow, I wish I could earn $88 an hour!)
>> In future, if the light comes on again, I'll give the gas cap another
>> twist, and go to Auto Zone for their code reader and turn the check
>> engine light OFF....and see if that fixes it. I don't need any more
>> expensive lessons.[/color]
>
> Keep your copy of that repair order because I do not think the problem is
> a loose gas cap. Next time the check engine light (known as a malfunction
> indicator light, or MIL) comes on, do not clear the codes. Instead, take
> it to the dealer for them to read the codes directly.
>
> A loose gas cap is more likely to cause diagnostic trouble code (DTC)
> P0440, which is "evaporative emission control system malfunction; P0442
> Evaporative Emission Control System Leak Detected (small leak); or P0455
> Evaporative Emission Control System Leak Detected (gross leak). After
> refueling, always tighten the gas cap until you hear it
> clicking/ratcheting several times.
>
> The technical service bulletin (TSB) seems to address the problem you are
> having. I pasted the TSB summary below, and next time you visit the
> dealership, I would politely ask if the TSB applies to the condition you
> are experiencing.
>
> TSB EG 013-03 (revised) issued 12/5/2003 - 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003 Toyota
> Avalon, Camry & Solara, 2001, 2002, 2003 Sienna. Under certain driving
> conditions, some 2000-2003 model year Avalon, Camry (NAP only) and Solara
> vehicles, and some 2001-2003 model year Sienna vehicles may exhibit a
> M.I.L. "ON" with DTC(s) P0440, P0441 and/or P0446 stored due to an
> inoperative Canister Closed Valve Vacuum Switching Valve (CCV VSV). The
> CCV assembly process has been changed to correct this condition
>
>
> --
>
> Ray O
> (correct punctuation to reply)[/color]
Thanks (once again) Ray, I'll do as you suggest. And am printing out this
post to put with my repair order.[color=blue]
>[/color]

"mack" <mackerel@dslextreme.com> wrote in message
news:12jvlos5sk3a35d@corp.supernews.com...[color=blue]
>
> "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote in message
> news:71153$453fbd9e$44a4a10d$26587@msgid.meganewsservers.com...[color=green]
>>
>> "mack" <mackerel@dslextreme.com> wrote in message
>> news:12jvcm8dc75ku5f@corp.supernews.com...[color=darkred]
>>> As some of you may remember, I posted last week about my 'check engine'
>>> light going on in my 03 Avalon.
>>> So yesterday I had my appointment with the local Toyota dealer to take
>>> care of it.
>>> (I had gone to an Autozone to borrow their code reader, and found three
>>> error codes 0441, 0442, and 0446, which all related to the evaporative
>>> emission control system. Ray O suggested that it might be something to
>>> do with the charcoal canister or its valve.
>>> When I got the car back yesterday, they had done a test to determine
>>> whether there was a leak or other anomaly in the Evap system, but found
>>> none. They surmised that in the recent past, someone had left the gas
>>> cap slightly loose, and that's what turned on the check engine light.
>>> I had already screwed the gas cap on tighter, making the 'ratchety'
>>> sound with it, but it had already been tight...and the check engine
>>> light had already appeared at that time.
>>> Oddly, I'm the only one who fills the tank on that car, and I always
>>> make sure that the cap is tight by giving another turn or two to the cap
>>> after I hear it ratcheting.
>>> So, long story short, that was the only explanation they could give, and
>>> it cost me one hour's labor....$88.00
>>> (wow, I wish I could earn $88 an hour!)
>>> In future, if the light comes on again, I'll give the gas cap another
>>> twist, and go to Auto Zone for their code reader and turn the check
>>> engine light OFF....and see if that fixes it. I don't need any more
>>> expensive lessons.[/color]
>>
>> Keep your copy of that repair order because I do not think the problem is
>> a loose gas cap. Next time the check engine light (known as a
>> malfunction indicator light, or MIL) comes on, do not clear the codes.
>> Instead, take it to the dealer for them to read the codes directly.
>>
>> A loose gas cap is more likely to cause diagnostic trouble code (DTC)
>> P0440, which is "evaporative emission control system malfunction; P0442
>> Evaporative Emission Control System Leak Detected (small leak); or P0455
>> Evaporative Emission Control System Leak Detected (gross leak). After
>> refueling, always tighten the gas cap until you hear it
>> clicking/ratcheting several times.
>>
>> The technical service bulletin (TSB) seems to address the problem you are
>> having. I pasted the TSB summary below, and next time you visit the
>> dealership, I would politely ask if the TSB applies to the condition you
>> are experiencing.
>>
>> TSB EG 013-03 (revised) issued 12/5/2003 - 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003 Toyota
>> Avalon, Camry & Solara, 2001, 2002, 2003 Sienna. Under certain driving
>> conditions, some 2000-2003 model year Avalon, Camry (NAP only) and Solara
>> vehicles, and some 2001-2003 model year Sienna vehicles may exhibit a
>> M.I.L. "ON" with DTC(s) P0440, P0441 and/or P0446 stored due to an
>> inoperative Canister Closed Valve Vacuum Switching Valve (CCV VSV). The
>> CCV assembly process has been changed to correct this condition
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Ray O
>> (correct punctuation to reply)[/color]
> Thanks (once again) Ray, I'll do as you suggest. And am printing out this
> post to put with my repair order.[color=green]
>>[/color]
>[/color]

You're welcome! You should be very diplomatic when you show the post. If I
were the person being shown the post, I would not appreciate someone telling
me that I should do something just because the customer read it on the
internet somewhere ;-) On the other hand, although it is not necessary to
memorize the contents of every TSB, it certainly helps to be able to
remember the existence of a TSB, especially one that covers so many series
and model years.

Good luck!
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

"mack" <mackerel@dslextreme.com> wrote in message
news:12jvcm8dc75ku5f@corp.supernews.com...[color=blue]
> As some of you may remember, I posted last week about my 'check engine'
> light going on in my 03 Avalon.
> So yesterday I had my appointment with the local Toyota dealer to take
> care of it.
> (I had gone to an Autozone to borrow their code reader, and found three
> error codes 0441, 0442, and 0446, which all related to the evaporative
> emission control system. Ray O suggested that it might be something to
> do with the charcoal canister or its valve.
> When I got the car back yesterday, they had done a test to determine
> whether there was a leak or other anomaly in the Evap system, but found
> none. They surmised that in the recent past, someone had left the gas
> cap slightly loose, and that's what turned on the check engine light.
> I had already screwed the gas cap on tighter, making the 'ratchety' sound
> with it, but it had already been tight...and the check engine light had
> already appeared at that time.
> Oddly, I'm the only one who fills the tank on that car, and I always make
> sure that the cap is tight by giving another turn or two to the cap after
> I hear it ratcheting.
> So, long story short, that was the only explanation they could give, and
> it cost me one hour's labor....$88.00
> (wow, I wish I could earn $88 an hour!)
> In future, if the light comes on again, I'll give the gas cap another
> twist, and go to Auto Zone for their code reader and turn the check engine
> light OFF....and see if that fixes it. I don't need any more expensive
> lessons.[/color]

That was also the answer to my "check engine" light coming on; the gas cap
simply not tight enough.

Cathy



[color=blue]
>
>[/color]

On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 17:07:28 -0500, "Ray O"
<rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote:
[color=blue]
>
>"mack" <mackerel@dslextreme.com> wrote in message
>news:12jvlos5sk3a35d@corp.supernews.com...[color=green]
>>
>> "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote in message
>> news:71153$453fbd9e$44a4a10d$26587@msgid.meganewsservers.com...[color=darkred]
>>>
>>> "mack" <mackerel@dslextreme.com> wrote in message
>>> news:12jvcm8dc75ku5f@corp.supernews.com...
>>>> As some of you may remember, I posted last week about my 'check engine'
>>>> light going on in my 03 Avalon.
>>>> So yesterday I had my appointment with the local Toyota dealer to take
>>>> care of it.
>>>> (I had gone to an Autozone to borrow their code reader, and found three
>>>> error codes 0441, 0442, and 0446, which all related to the evaporative
>>>> emission control system. Ray O suggested that it might be something to
>>>> do with the charcoal canister or its valve.
>>>> When I got the car back yesterday, they had done a test to determine
>>>> whether there was a leak or other anomaly in the Evap system, but found
>>>> none. They surmised that in the recent past, someone had left the gas
>>>> cap slightly loose, and that's what turned on the check engine light.
>>>> I had already screwed the gas cap on tighter, making the 'ratchety'
>>>> sound with it, but it had already been tight...and the check engine
>>>> light had already appeared at that time.
>>>> Oddly, I'm the only one who fills the tank on that car, and I always
>>>> make sure that the cap is tight by giving another turn or two to the cap
>>>> after I hear it ratcheting.
>>>> So, long story short, that was the only explanation they could give, and
>>>> it cost me one hour's labor....$88.00
>>>> (wow, I wish I could earn $88 an hour!)
>>>> In future, if the light comes on again, I'll give the gas cap another
>>>> twist, and go to Auto Zone for their code reader and turn the check
>>>> engine light OFF....and see if that fixes it. I don't need any more
>>>> expensive lessons.
>>>
>>> Keep your copy of that repair order because I do not think the problem is
>>> a loose gas cap. Next time the check engine light (known as a
>>> malfunction indicator light, or MIL) comes on, do not clear the codes.
>>> Instead, take it to the dealer for them to read the codes directly.
>>>
>>> A loose gas cap is more likely to cause diagnostic trouble code (DTC)
>>> P0440, which is "evaporative emission control system malfunction; P0442
>>> Evaporative Emission Control System Leak Detected (small leak); or P0455
>>> Evaporative Emission Control System Leak Detected (gross leak). After
>>> refueling, always tighten the gas cap until you hear it
>>> clicking/ratcheting several times.
>>>
>>> The technical service bulletin (TSB) seems to address the problem you are
>>> having. I pasted the TSB summary below, and next time you visit the
>>> dealership, I would politely ask if the TSB applies to the condition you
>>> are experiencing.
>>>
>>> TSB EG 013-03 (revised) issued 12/5/2003 - 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003 Toyota
>>> Avalon, Camry & Solara, 2001, 2002, 2003 Sienna. Under certain driving
>>> conditions, some 2000-2003 model year Avalon, Camry (NAP only) and Solara
>>> vehicles, and some 2001-2003 model year Sienna vehicles may exhibit a
>>> M.I.L. "ON" with DTC(s) P0440, P0441 and/or P0446 stored due to an
>>> inoperative Canister Closed Valve Vacuum Switching Valve (CCV VSV). The
>>> CCV assembly process has been changed to correct this condition
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Ray O
>>> (correct punctuation to reply)[/color]
>> Thanks (once again) Ray, I'll do as you suggest. And am printing out this
>> post to put with my repair order.[color=darkred]
>>>[/color]
>>[/color]
>
>You're welcome! You should be very diplomatic when you show the post. If I
>were the person being shown the post, I would not appreciate someone telling
>me that I should do something just because the customer read it on the
>internet somewhere ;-) On the other hand, although it is not necessary to
>memorize the contents of every TSB, it certainly helps to be able to
>remember the existence of a TSB, especially one that covers so many series
>and model years.
>
>Good luck![/color]


Sounds like a start of another classic mechanic story. First destroy
any evidence of a problem, do not do any research of codes or
anything else, 'fix' or do whatever work is easy and profitable (not
anything needed), say to bring it back for more punishment if more
problems, do not apply any casually acquired knowledge or 'skill' etc.
Been there done that more than once.

Other than to protect Ray - our local good guy (you could cut the id
of the email).
Not sure if one should be polite -once this sort of thing has been
proven. What is the downside to demanding a settlement from the owner
- for your time and $ paid for the alleged service?

Just like the LA Co. Sheriff dept. - a crime will only be solved if
the perp. actually walks in and confesses to the desk sgt. - even
then it is not a sure thing. The sgt may elect to ignore the whole
thing - using any number of standard excuses.

I maintain that ANY code comeing from the Evaporative Emissions Control
System should be reset before any other work is done, then wait for a repeat
code to pop up.

If any code does pop up, then get the gas cap tested and reset teh codes
again. If the codes pop up again, THEN get professional help, or dive into
the vac hoses and evap canister if you have the skills to do so.







"mack" <mackerel@dslextreme.com> wrote in message
news:12jvcm8dc75ku5f@corp.supernews.com...[color=blue]
> As some of you may remember, I posted last week about my 'check engine'
> light going on in my 03 Avalon.
> So yesterday I had my appointment with the local Toyota dealer to take
> care of it.
> (I had gone to an Autozone to borrow their code reader, and found three
> error codes 0441, 0442, and 0446, which all related to the evaporative
> emission control system. Ray O suggested that it might be something to
> do with the charcoal canister or its valve.
> When I got the car back yesterday, they had done a test to determine
> whether there was a leak or other anomaly in the Evap system, but found
> none. They surmised that in the recent past, someone had left the gas
> cap slightly loose, and that's what turned on the check engine light.
> I had already screwed the gas cap on tighter, making the 'ratchety' sound
> with it, but it had already been tight...and the check engine light had
> already appeared at that time.
> Oddly, I'm the only one who fills the tank on that car, and I always make
> sure that the cap is tight by giving another turn or two to the cap after
> I hear it ratcheting.
> So, long story short, that was the only explanation they could give, and
> it cost me one hour's labor....$88.00
> (wow, I wish I could earn $88 an hour!)
> In future, if the light comes on again, I'll give the gas cap another
> twist, and go to Auto Zone for their code reader and turn the check engine
> light OFF....and see if that fixes it. I don't need any more expensive
> lessons.
>[/color]

"MO full name" <nospam@hole.org> wrote in message
news:nptvj299g5q9731d2bctco7pp1mtcs7t8i@4ax.com...[color=blue]
> On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 17:07:28 -0500, "Ray O"
> <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote:
>[color=green]
>>
>>"mack" <mackerel@dslextreme.com> wrote in message
>>news:12jvlos5sk3a35d@corp.supernews.com...[color=darkred]
>>>
>>> "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote in message
>>> news:71153$453fbd9e$44a4a10d$26587@msgid.meganewsservers.com...
>>>>
>>>> "mack" <mackerel@dslextreme.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:12jvcm8dc75ku5f@corp.supernews.com...
>>>>> As some of you may remember, I posted last week about my 'check
>>>>> engine'
>>>>> light going on in my 03 Avalon.
>>>>> So yesterday I had my appointment with the local Toyota dealer to take
>>>>> care of it.
>>>>> (I had gone to an Autozone to borrow their code reader, and found
>>>>> three
>>>>> error codes 0441, 0442, and 0446, which all related to the evaporative
>>>>> emission control system. Ray O suggested that it might be something
>>>>> to
>>>>> do with the charcoal canister or its valve.
>>>>> When I got the car back yesterday, they had done a test to determine
>>>>> whether there was a leak or other anomaly in the Evap system, but
>>>>> found
>>>>> none. They surmised that in the recent past, someone had left the
>>>>> gas
>>>>> cap slightly loose, and that's what turned on the check engine light.
>>>>> I had already screwed the gas cap on tighter, making the 'ratchety'
>>>>> sound with it, but it had already been tight...and the check engine
>>>>> light had already appeared at that time.
>>>>> Oddly, I'm the only one who fills the tank on that car, and I always
>>>>> make sure that the cap is tight by giving another turn or two to the
>>>>> cap
>>>>> after I hear it ratcheting.
>>>>> So, long story short, that was the only explanation they could give,
>>>>> and
>>>>> it cost me one hour's labor....$88.00
>>>>> (wow, I wish I could earn $88 an hour!)
>>>>> In future, if the light comes on again, I'll give the gas cap another
>>>>> twist, and go to Auto Zone for their code reader and turn the check
>>>>> engine light OFF....and see if that fixes it. I don't need any more
>>>>> expensive lessons.
>>>>
>>>> Keep your copy of that repair order because I do not think the problem
>>>> is
>>>> a loose gas cap. Next time the check engine light (known as a
>>>> malfunction indicator light, or MIL) comes on, do not clear the codes.
>>>> Instead, take it to the dealer for them to read the codes directly.
>>>>
>>>> A loose gas cap is more likely to cause diagnostic trouble code (DTC)
>>>> P0440, which is "evaporative emission control system malfunction; P0442
>>>> Evaporative Emission Control System Leak Detected (small leak); or
>>>> P0455
>>>> Evaporative Emission Control System Leak Detected (gross leak). After
>>>> refueling, always tighten the gas cap until you hear it
>>>> clicking/ratcheting several times.
>>>>
>>>> The technical service bulletin (TSB) seems to address the problem you
>>>> are
>>>> having. I pasted the TSB summary below, and next time you visit the
>>>> dealership, I would politely ask if the TSB applies to the condition
>>>> you
>>>> are experiencing.
>>>>
>>>> TSB EG 013-03 (revised) issued 12/5/2003 - 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003
>>>> Toyota
>>>> Avalon, Camry & Solara, 2001, 2002, 2003 Sienna. Under certain driving
>>>> conditions, some 2000-2003 model year Avalon, Camry (NAP only) and
>>>> Solara
>>>> vehicles, and some 2001-2003 model year Sienna vehicles may exhibit a
>>>> M.I.L. "ON" with DTC(s) P0440, P0441 and/or P0446 stored due to an
>>>> inoperative Canister Closed Valve Vacuum Switching Valve (CCV VSV). The
>>>> CCV assembly process has been changed to correct this condition
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Ray O
>>>> (correct punctuation to reply)
>>> Thanks (once again) Ray, I'll do as you suggest. And am printing out
>>> this
>>> post to put with my repair order.
>>>>
>>>[/color]
>>
>>You're welcome! You should be very diplomatic when you show the post. If
>>I
>>were the person being shown the post, I would not appreciate someone
>>telling
>>me that I should do something just because the customer read it on the
>>internet somewhere ;-) On the other hand, although it is not necessary to
>>memorize the contents of every TSB, it certainly helps to be able to
>>remember the existence of a TSB, especially one that covers so many series
>>and model years.
>>
>>Good luck![/color]
>
>
> Sounds like a start of another classic mechanic story. First destroy
> any evidence of a problem, do not do any research of codes or
> anything else, 'fix' or do whatever work is easy and profitable (not
> anything needed), say to bring it back for more punishment if more
> problems, do not apply any casually acquired knowledge or 'skill' etc.
> Been there done that more than once.
>
> Other than to protect Ray - our local good guy (you could cut the id
> of the email).
> Not sure if one should be polite -once this sort of thing has been
> proven. What is the downside to demanding a settlement from the owner
> - for your time and $ paid for the alleged service?[/color]

Thanks for the vote of confidence!

One of my former job duties was to work with customers who were dissatisfied
with dealer service department repair attempts on their car. In the days
before computerized databases, TSB's were filed in a 3 ring binder, and
indexes were updated once or twice a year. In between the times when the
indexes were updated, the service department had to remember that a TSB was
issued for a particular condition or page through every TSB that was issued
for a particular system since the last index was issued to see if anything
relevant turned up. To make things worse, TSB's were filed based on issue
date, not vehicle model year, so you might have to go through several years
worth of bulletins to find a relevant one. I don't know how the current
computerized system works, but assuming it is as easy as the one on the
NHTSA site, it is a lot easier to find if TSB's were issued.

Without checking the back of the hard copy of the repair order, there is no
way to tell what the dealership actually did to the car. In the absence of
the TSB, the normal procedure for diagnosing the cause of the DTC the OP
mentioned would be to vacuum or pressure check the evaporative emissions
control system, which it sounds like they did. In my experience in working
with service departments, it is not uncommon for a technician, especially
non-masters, to be unaware of or forget about or neglect to read a TSB and
go through a normal diagnostic routine. If they could not detect a leak in
the evaporative emissions control system, then the most likely cause of the
DTC is a loose gas cap. Bottom line, IMO, the dealership may be guilty of
not checking for TSBs but not intentional fraud or just giving up.
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 23:19:06 -0500, "Ray O"
<rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote:
[color=blue]
>
>"MO full name" <nospam@hole.org> wrote in message
>news:nptvj299g5q9731d2bctco7pp1mtcs7t8i@4ax.com...[color=green]
>> On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 17:07:28 -0500, "Ray O"
>> <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote:
>>[color=darkred]
>>>
>>>"mack" <mackerel@dslextreme.com> wrote in message
>>>news:12jvlos5sk3a35d@corp.supernews.com...
>>>>
>>>> "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote in message
>>>> news:71153$453fbd9e$44a4a10d$26587@msgid.meganewsservers.com...
>>>>>
>>>>> "mack" <mackerel@dslextreme.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:12jvcm8dc75ku5f@corp.supernews.com...
>>>>>> As some of you may remember, I posted last week about my 'check
>>>>>> engine'
>>>>>> light going on in my 03 Avalon.
>>>>>> So yesterday I had my appointment with the local Toyota dealer to take
>>>>>> care of it.
>>>>>> (I had gone to an Autozone to borrow their code reader, and found
>>>>>> three
>>>>>> error codes 0441, 0442, and 0446, which all related to the evaporative
>>>>>> emission control system. Ray O suggested that it might be something
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> do with the charcoal canister or its valve.
>>>>>> When I got the car back yesterday, they had done a test to determine
>>>>>> whether there was a leak or other anomaly in the Evap system, but
>>>>>> found
>>>>>> none. They surmised that in the recent past, someone had left the
>>>>>> gas
>>>>>> cap slightly loose, and that's what turned on the check engine light.
>>>>>> I had already screwed the gas cap on tighter, making the 'ratchety'
>>>>>> sound with it, but it had already been tight...and the check engine
>>>>>> light had already appeared at that time.
>>>>>> Oddly, I'm the only one who fills the tank on that car, and I always
>>>>>> make sure that the cap is tight by giving another turn or two to the
>>>>>> cap
>>>>>> after I hear it ratcheting.
>>>>>> So, long story short, that was the only explanation they could give,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> it cost me one hour's labor....$88.00
>>>>>> (wow, I wish I could earn $88 an hour!)
>>>>>> In future, if the light comes on again, I'll give the gas cap another
>>>>>> twist, and go to Auto Zone for their code reader and turn the check
>>>>>> engine light OFF....and see if that fixes it. I don't need any more
>>>>>> expensive lessons.
>>>>>
>>>>> Keep your copy of that repair order because I do not think the problem
>>>>> is
>>>>> a loose gas cap. Next time the check engine light (known as a
>>>>> malfunction indicator light, or MIL) comes on, do not clear the codes.
>>>>> Instead, take it to the dealer for them to read the codes directly.
>>>>>
>>>>> A loose gas cap is more likely to cause diagnostic trouble code (DTC)
>>>>> P0440, which is "evaporative emission control system malfunction; P0442
>>>>> Evaporative Emission Control System Leak Detected (small leak); or
>>>>> P0455
>>>>> Evaporative Emission Control System Leak Detected (gross leak). After
>>>>> refueling, always tighten the gas cap until you hear it
>>>>> clicking/ratcheting several times.
>>>>>
>>>>> The technical service bulletin (TSB) seems to address the problem you
>>>>> are
>>>>> having. I pasted the TSB summary below, and next time you visit the
>>>>> dealership, I would politely ask if the TSB applies to the condition
>>>>> you
>>>>> are experiencing.
>>>>>
>>>>> TSB EG 013-03 (revised) issued 12/5/2003 - 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003
>>>>> Toyota
>>>>> Avalon, Camry & Solara, 2001, 2002, 2003 Sienna. Under certain driving
>>>>> conditions, some 2000-2003 model year Avalon, Camry (NAP only) and
>>>>> Solara
>>>>> vehicles, and some 2001-2003 model year Sienna vehicles may exhibit a
>>>>> M.I.L. "ON" with DTC(s) P0440, P0441 and/or P0446 stored due to an
>>>>> inoperative Canister Closed Valve Vacuum Switching Valve (CCV VSV). The
>>>>> CCV assembly process has been changed to correct this condition
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> Ray O
>>>>> (correct punctuation to reply)
>>>> Thanks (once again) Ray, I'll do as you suggest. And am printing out
>>>> this
>>>> post to put with my repair order.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>You're welcome! You should be very diplomatic when you show the post. If
>>>I
>>>were the person being shown the post, I would not appreciate someone
>>>telling
>>>me that I should do something just because the customer read it on the
>>>internet somewhere ;-) On the other hand, although it is not necessary to
>>>memorize the contents of every TSB, it certainly helps to be able to
>>>remember the existence of a TSB, especially one that covers so many series
>>>and model years.
>>>
>>>Good luck![/color]
>>
>>
>> Sounds like a start of another classic mechanic story. First destroy
>> any evidence of a problem, do not do any research of codes or
>> anything else, 'fix' or do whatever work is easy and profitable (not
>> anything needed), say to bring it back for more punishment if more
>> problems, do not apply any casually acquired knowledge or 'skill' etc.
>> Been there done that more than once.
>>
>> Other than to protect Ray - our local good guy (you could cut the id
>> of the email).
>> Not sure if one should be polite -once this sort of thing has been
>> proven. What is the downside to demanding a settlement from the owner
>> - for your time and $ paid for the alleged service?[/color]
>
>Thanks for the vote of confidence!
>
>One of my former job duties was to work with customers who were dissatisfied
>with dealer service department repair attempts on their car. In the days
>before computerized databases, TSB's were filed in a 3 ring binder, and
>indexes were updated once or twice a year. In between the times when the
>indexes were updated, the service department had to remember that a TSB was
>issued for a particular condition or page through every TSB that was issued
>for a particular system since the last index was issued to see if anything
>relevant turned up. To make things worse, TSB's were filed based on issue
>date, not vehicle model year, so you might have to go through several years
>worth of bulletins to find a relevant one. I don't know how the current
>computerized system works, but assuming it is as easy as the one on the
>NHTSA site, it is a lot easier to find if TSB's were issued.
>
>Without checking the back of the hard copy of the repair order, there is no
>way to tell what the dealership actually did to the car. In the absence of
>the TSB, the normal procedure for diagnosing the cause of the DTC the OP
>mentioned would be to vacuum or pressure check the evaporative emissions
>control system, which it sounds like they did. In my experience in working
>with service departments, it is not uncommon for a technician, especially
>non-masters, to be unaware of or forget about or neglect to read a TSB and
>go through a normal diagnostic routine. If they could not detect a leak in
>the evaporative emissions control system, then the most likely cause of the
>DTC is a loose gas cap. Bottom line, IMO, the dealership may be guilty of
>not checking for TSBs but not intentional fraud or just giving up.[/color]


Careless, mistake or fraud - exactly the same difference to the
client. Same damage and same remedy.

"MO full name" <nospam@hole.org> wrote in message
news:11k0k29osj6gfgc508dptr6esasda4s48m@4ax.com...[color=blue]
>
>
> Careless, mistake or fraud - exactly the same difference to the
> client. Same damage and same remedy.[/color]

True, although I'm more likely to forgive an honest mistake than the other
two causes.
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)