OT Dims want to raise gas prices!

Mike did a terrific job patiently explaining to you how things work and
why the free market is preferable to socialist-type policies and
controls which discourage hard work, innovation, competition and free
enterprise, and result in a poorer standard of living. It's obvious
that you just don't get it.


JoeSpareBedroom wrote:[color=blue]
> "Mike Harris" <root@austin.texas> wrote in message
> news:pan.2006.11.22.05.08.21.975408@austin.texas...
>[color=green][color=darkred]
> >>
> >> In fact, they do. Last time there was a threat of cold weather
> >> threatening orange crops, the wholesale price of fresh orange juice
> >> jumped (at least theoretically) about 20%. At many large chains, there
> >> was no change in the selling price, even when these chains actually paid
> >> the higher wholesale price. Why? Because these companies know that major
> >> increases in prices on core products is enough to send customers to the
> >> competitor, who will be more than happy to sell the same products at a
> >> loss.[/color]
> >
> > Taking what you write at face value, this was a business decision which
> > the large chains coldly calculated would cost them money had they done
> > otherwise.
> >
> > From a practical sense though, you are dead wrong. There is a futures
> > market for frozen-concentrated orange juice and you can bet your ass the
> > large chains hedged to lock in their prices. I don't care what the
> > wholesale invoices you mailed out said. The money they were losing to
> > your employer, they were gaining back on the futures exchange. They
> > risk-shifted to the filthy Capitalists, I guarantee you.[/color]
>
>
> Companies like Tropicana & Minute Maid (Coca Cola) hedge via the commodities
> market. Most chains don't get involved with it. They have better methods at
> their disposal, such as buying longer inventory before expected price
> increases arrive, if possible. Chains with the most skilled (or obnoxious)
> buyers will "inform" manufacturers that they'll be splitting the price
> increase with the chain so end users don't see such a huge increase. Or,
> that manufacturer's product will suddenly lose lots of shelf space. A
> supermarket here handles price swings quite differently: They simply put
> signs on certain products, explaining what's going on - bad weather in
> California jacking up the price of lettuce, for instance. Anyone who cares
> can confirm the information by checking the newspaper.
>
> That last thing - see how very different that is from what the oil companies
> did during the summer? (I know-traders made it happen, but let's keep this
> simple for a moment). News headlines: "Oil jumped $X per barrel today on
> fears surrounding increased violence in Tikrit". Now, the intelligent end
> user thinks "Hmm. We get pretty much no oil from Iraq anyway, and if we did,
> I see absolutely nothing in the news about oil facilities being damaged."
>
> So, you asked what *I* think is a fair price. You and I have no way of
> knowing the true answer to that question. What *I* want is for Exxon to
> behave like any other company. Don't hand out price increases that are based
> on fairy tales, and then confirm the fairy tales by retracting the increases
> two months later. Nobody enjoys doing business with companies which insult
> customers. You know that.[/color]

On 22 Nov 2006 10:54:32 -0800, "Mark" <bogusmailmark@yahoo.com> wrote:
[color=blue]
>Mike did a terrific job patiently explaining to you how things work and
>why the free market is preferable to socialist-type policies and
>controls which discourage hard work, innovation, competition and free
>enterprise, and result in a poorer standard of living. It's obvious
>that you just don't get it.[/color]

Bingo....

[color=blue]
>
>
>JoeSpareBedroom wrote:[color=green]
>> "Mike Harris" <root@austin.texas> wrote in message
>> news:pan.2006.11.22.05.08.21.975408@austin.texas...
>>[color=darkred]
>> >>
>> >> In fact, they do. Last time there was a threat of cold weather
>> >> threatening orange crops, the wholesale price of fresh orange juice
>> >> jumped (at least theoretically) about 20%. At many large chains, there
>> >> was no change in the selling price, even when these chains actually paid
>> >> the higher wholesale price. Why? Because these companies know that major
>> >> increases in prices on core products is enough to send customers to the
>> >> competitor, who will be more than happy to sell the same products at a
>> >> loss.
>> >
>> > Taking what you write at face value, this was a business decision which
>> > the large chains coldly calculated would cost them money had they done
>> > otherwise.
>> >
>> > From a practical sense though, you are dead wrong. There is a futures
>> > market for frozen-concentrated orange juice and you can bet your ass the
>> > large chains hedged to lock in their prices. I don't care what the
>> > wholesale invoices you mailed out said. The money they were losing to
>> > your employer, they were gaining back on the futures exchange. They
>> > risk-shifted to the filthy Capitalists, I guarantee you.[/color]
>>
>>
>> Companies like Tropicana & Minute Maid (Coca Cola) hedge via the commodities
>> market. Most chains don't get involved with it. They have better methods at
>> their disposal, such as buying longer inventory before expected price
>> increases arrive, if possible. Chains with the most skilled (or obnoxious)
>> buyers will "inform" manufacturers that they'll be splitting the price
>> increase with the chain so end users don't see such a huge increase. Or,
>> that manufacturer's product will suddenly lose lots of shelf space. A
>> supermarket here handles price swings quite differently: They simply put
>> signs on certain products, explaining what's going on - bad weather in
>> California jacking up the price of lettuce, for instance. Anyone who cares
>> can confirm the information by checking the newspaper.
>>
>> That last thing - see how very different that is from what the oil companies
>> did during the summer? (I know-traders made it happen, but let's keep this
>> simple for a moment). News headlines: "Oil jumped $X per barrel today on
>> fears surrounding increased violence in Tikrit". Now, the intelligent end
>> user thinks "Hmm. We get pretty much no oil from Iraq anyway, and if we did,
>> I see absolutely nothing in the news about oil facilities being damaged."
>>
>> So, you asked what *I* think is a fair price. You and I have no way of
>> knowing the true answer to that question. What *I* want is for Exxon to
>> behave like any other company. Don't hand out price increases that are based
>> on fairy tales, and then confirm the fairy tales by retracting the increases
>> two months later. Nobody enjoys doing business with companies which insult
>> customers. You know that.[/color][/color]

--

Scott in Florida

Please indicate where I suggested a policy which resembles socialism. I'm
absolutely positive that you cannot.


"Mark" <bogusmailmark@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1164221672.017558.325490@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...[color=blue]
> Mike did a terrific job patiently explaining to you how things work and
> why the free market is preferable to socialist-type policies and
> controls which discourage hard work, innovation, competition and free
> enterprise, and result in a poorer standard of living. It's obvious
> that you just don't get it.
>
>
> JoeSpareBedroom wrote:[color=green]
>> "Mike Harris" <root@austin.texas> wrote in message
>> news:pan.2006.11.22.05.08.21.975408@austin.texas...
>>[color=darkred]
>> >>
>> >> In fact, they do. Last time there was a threat of cold weather
>> >> threatening orange crops, the wholesale price of fresh orange juice
>> >> jumped (at least theoretically) about 20%. At many large chains, there
>> >> was no change in the selling price, even when these chains actually
>> >> paid
>> >> the higher wholesale price. Why? Because these companies know that
>> >> major
>> >> increases in prices on core products is enough to send customers to
>> >> the
>> >> competitor, who will be more than happy to sell the same products at a
>> >> loss.
>> >
>> > Taking what you write at face value, this was a business decision which
>> > the large chains coldly calculated would cost them money had they done
>> > otherwise.
>> >
>> > From a practical sense though, you are dead wrong. There is a futures
>> > market for frozen-concentrated orange juice and you can bet your ass
>> > the
>> > large chains hedged to lock in their prices. I don't care what the
>> > wholesale invoices you mailed out said. The money they were losing to
>> > your employer, they were gaining back on the futures exchange. They
>> > risk-shifted to the filthy Capitalists, I guarantee you.[/color]
>>
>>
>> Companies like Tropicana & Minute Maid (Coca Cola) hedge via the
>> commodities
>> market. Most chains don't get involved with it. They have better methods
>> at
>> their disposal, such as buying longer inventory before expected price
>> increases arrive, if possible. Chains with the most skilled (or
>> obnoxious)
>> buyers will "inform" manufacturers that they'll be splitting the price
>> increase with the chain so end users don't see such a huge increase. Or,
>> that manufacturer's product will suddenly lose lots of shelf space. A
>> supermarket here handles price swings quite differently: They simply put
>> signs on certain products, explaining what's going on - bad weather in
>> California jacking up the price of lettuce, for instance. Anyone who
>> cares
>> can confirm the information by checking the newspaper.
>>
>> That last thing - see how very different that is from what the oil
>> companies
>> did during the summer? (I know-traders made it happen, but let's keep
>> this
>> simple for a moment). News headlines: "Oil jumped $X per barrel today on
>> fears surrounding increased violence in Tikrit". Now, the intelligent end
>> user thinks "Hmm. We get pretty much no oil from Iraq anyway, and if we
>> did,
>> I see absolutely nothing in the news about oil facilities being damaged."
>>
>> So, you asked what *I* think is a fair price. You and I have no way of
>> knowing the true answer to that question. What *I* want is for Exxon to
>> behave like any other company. Don't hand out price increases that are
>> based
>> on fairy tales, and then confirm the fairy tales by retracting the
>> increases
>> two months later. Nobody enjoys doing business with companies which
>> insult
>> customers. You know that.[/color]
>[/color]

In article <1164221672.017558.325490@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"Mark" <bogusmailmark@yahoo.com> wrote:
[color=blue]
> Mike did a terrific job patiently explaining to you how things work and
> why the free market is preferable to socialist-type policies and
> controls which discourage hard work, innovation, competition and free
> enterprise, and result in a poorer standard of living. It's obvious
> that you just don't get it.[/color]

joesmallbottom has other issues besides.
--

On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 20:06:03 +0000, JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
[color=blue]
> Please indicate where I suggested a policy which resembles socialism.
> I'm absolutely positive that you cannot.[/color]

Joe,

I'm afraid that Mark has you, there. Whether you've consciously
acknowledged it as "socialism" or not, this is exactly the idea behind
your assertion that Exxon should exhibit a "social conscience" and protect
us from price swings engineered by Evil Men in Suits. In fact, calling
for Exxon to treat you and me in any other fashion besides in the manner
which is best for their profits and their shareholders is - quite frankly
- socialism in a nutshell.

That you've refrained from calling for the "usual solutions" (ie
government controls) to the perceived inequity of capitalism is
irrelevant; you are espousing the key concept - that business should be
geared towards the social and equitable good of all.

When my wife was taking business classes, she was truly puzzled by an
example given for discussion in her text.

it seems that the lawn around the Taj Mahal in Agra, India is kept trimmed
by teams of people equipped with nail scissors, cutting each blade of
grass to the proper length by hand. The text asked whether this was an
efficient use of resources and capital.

On the surface, one would say "of course not." However, the correct
answer is "It must be, otherwise they would not be doing it that way."
Labor in India is so inexpensive, and lawn mowers so dear, that it is in
fact the most efficient way to keep the grass trimmed no matter how
wasteful it seems.

This was quite an "Aha" moment for her once she grasped this. Businesses
such as Exxon operate in their own self interest, always. If they 'jerk
us around' with gasoline prices, it's because they are following the best
business model. We may not care for it, but to appeal to them to "treat
their customers with more respect" is ludicrous.

I don't ask you to like it - I just ask you to understand it. There's
nothing inherently "evil" about capitalism - all I ask is that you take
some time to grasp how it functions.

The corollary - that we all *benefit* when businesses operate in their own
self interest - is an even more difficult concept to comprehend so I'll
leave that for some future post.

P.S. RIP Milton Friedman, who died last week at a ripe old age. He
co-authored (with his wife, Rose) "Free to Choose," an excellent
non-partisan and non technical primer which should be required reading for
any one who presumes to understand matters economic.

--
Mike Harris
Austin TX

On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 16:46:39 -0600, dbu' <repubs@waitfor08.com> wrote:
[color=blue]
>In article <1164221672.017558.325490@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "Mark" <bogusmailmark@yahoo.com> wrote:
>[color=green]
>> Mike did a terrific job patiently explaining to you how things work and
>> why the free market is preferable to socialist-type policies and
>> controls which discourage hard work, innovation, competition and free
>> enterprise, and result in a poorer standard of living. It's obvious
>> that you just don't get it.[/color]
>
>joesmallbottom has other issues besides.[/color]

To be kind....LOL


--

Scott in Florida

Mike Harris, 11/22/2006,6:18:52 PM, wrote:
[color=blue]
> The corollary - that we all benefit when businesses operate in their
> own self interest - is an even more difficult concept to comprehend
> so I'll leave that for some future post.[/color]

Joe is probably having a conniption by now. To be given a lesson in
economics and be called a socialist must go against grain of emotion he
has.

--
"Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it." ~
Flannery O'Connor

Well, that's not very nice of you mike. You just eliminated every one of
the kooks in this NG from the potential readers list LOL


mike hunt


"Mike Harris" <root@austin.texas> wrote in message
news:pan.2006.11.22.23.18.50.918677@austin.texas...[color=blue]
> On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 20:06:03 +0000, JoeSpareBedroom wrote:[color=green]
>>[/color]
> P.S. RIP Milton Friedman, who died last week at a ripe old age. He
> co-authored (with his wife, Rose) "Free to Choose," an excellent
> non-partisan and non technical primer which should be required reading for
> any one who presumes to understand matters economic.
>
> --
> Mike Harris
> Austin TX
>[/color]

Aw nuts.

I'll have to console myself with the fact that the sorts of people who
move their lips while they read the picture captions (regardless
of political stripe) probably would not have gotten much from the text
anyway, no matter how simple the Friedmans managed to make a very complex
subject.

M


On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 19:19:54 -0500, Mike Hunter wrote:
[color=blue]
> Well, that's not very nice of you mike. You just eliminated every one of
> the kooks in this NG from the potential readers list LOL
>
>
> mike hunt
>
>
> "Mike Harris" <root@austin.texas> wrote in message
> news:pan.2006.11.22.23.18.50.918677@austin.texas...[color=green]
>> On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 20:06:03 +0000, JoeSpareBedroom wrote:[color=darkred]
>>>[/color]
>> P.S. RIP Milton Friedman, who died last week at a ripe old age. He
>> co-authored (with his wife, Rose) "Free to Choose," an excellent
>> non-partisan and non technical primer which should be required reading for
>> any one who presumes to understand matters economic.
>>
>> --
>> Mike Harris
>> Austin TX
>>[/color][/color]