Refurbished oil

Some flake who just bought another new Chevy truck - "because payments
were only about $50 per month more than for his two year old truck"
told me that he always took his vehicles to the dealer for service
because he did NOT want refabricated or re-refined OLD oil in his
vehicles!

I stated that if this were the case then I would be more suspicious of
a dealership than a drive in JiffyLube or similar establishment - at
least there you can observe everything done from five feet away.

Is any of this a serious issue. (Not that the person did not know his
total purchase price or even interest rate and qualifies for reduced
utility bills.)

jl

"Joe Lauton" <JL@Lauton2000.com> wrote in message
news:2a64m29oo2eef1sl0hkdcr3s8j518qs9jc@4ax.com...[color=blue]
> Some flake who just bought another new Chevy truck - "because payments
> were only about $50 per month more than for his two year old truck"
> told me that he always took his vehicles to the dealer for service
> because he did NOT want refabricated or re-refined OLD oil in his
> vehicles!
>
> I stated that if this were the case then I would be more suspicious of
> a dealership than a drive in JiffyLube or similar establishment - at
> least there you can observe everything done from five feet away.
>
> Is any of this a serious issue. (Not that the person did not know his
> total purchase price or even interest rate and qualifies for reduced
> utility bills.)
>
> jl[/color]

It does not matter whether the motor oil is "new" or "re-refined" as long as
it meets API specifications for grade and viscosity. I believe that used
motor oil is more commonly utilized in waste oil heater and boilers,
asphalt, and heating oil than for motor oil.

As far as whether I would trust a dealership or JiffyLube or similar
establishment, from my experience and in my opinion, I would trust a
dealership to do a proper oil change before I trusted a quick oil change
place. Dealership technicians go to factory sponsored technical classes
while the person who does oil changes probably receives no formal training.
Oil change chains will use cheapest oil filter they can get, while the
dealership will use OEM filters, and most dealerships are competitive in oil
change pricing. I have seen a lot more ruined engines caused by botched oil
changes at quick lube places than at dealerships.
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

"Joe Lauton" <JL@Lauton2000.com> wrote in message
news:2a64m29oo2eef1sl0hkdcr3s8j518qs9jc@4ax.com...[color=blue]
> Some flake who just bought another new Chevy truck - "because payments
> were only about $50 per month more than for his two year old truck"
> told me that he always took his vehicles to the dealer for service
> because he did NOT want refabricated or re-refined OLD oil in his
> vehicles!
>
> I stated that if this were the case then I would be more suspicious of
> a dealership than a drive in JiffyLube or similar establishment - at
> least there you can observe everything done from five feet away.
>
> Is any of this a serious issue. (Not that the person did not know his
> total purchase price or even interest rate and qualifies for reduced
> utility bills.)
>
> jl[/color]

Regardless of where you go for an oil change, the only way to be sure what
you getting is to have them pour it out of a can (instead of overhead tanks
and barrels) and watch them do it.

Actually, I have started to bring my own oil to the oil change place because
a 5 quart bottle of Mobil 1 costs less at Wal-Mart than the extra amount
they charge for the same oil (over and above a standard oil change).

Ray O wrote:[color=blue]
> "Joe Lauton" <JL@Lauton2000.com> wrote in message
> news:2a64m29oo2eef1sl0hkdcr3s8j518qs9jc@4ax.com...[color=green]
>> Some flake who just bought another new Chevy truck - "because payments
>> were only about $50 per month more than for his two year old truck"
>> told me that he always took his vehicles to the dealer for service
>> because he did NOT want refabricated or re-refined OLD oil in his
>> vehicles!
>>
>> I stated that if this were the case then I would be more suspicious of
>> a dealership than a drive in JiffyLube or similar establishment - at
>> least there you can observe everything done from five feet away.
>>
>> Is any of this a serious issue. (Not that the person did not know his
>> total purchase price or even interest rate and qualifies for reduced
>> utility bills.)
>>
>> jl[/color]
>
> It does not matter whether the motor oil is "new" or "re-refined" as long as
> it meets API specifications for grade and viscosity. I believe that used
> motor oil is more commonly utilized in waste oil heater and boilers,
> asphalt, and heating oil than for motor oil.
>
> As far as whether I would trust a dealership or JiffyLube or similar
> establishment, from my experience and in my opinion, I would trust a
> dealership to do a proper oil change before I trusted a quick oil change
> place. Dealership technicians go to factory sponsored technical classes
> while the person who does oil changes probably receives no formal training.
> Oil change chains will use cheapest oil filter they can get, while the
> dealership will use OEM filters, and most dealerships are competitive in oil
> change pricing. I have seen a lot more ruined engines caused by botched oil
> changes at quick lube places than at dealerships.[/color]

=====

Ray O is so right. My Toyota dealer does a fine job changing
the motor oil. I'll never go to Jiffy Lube again. A few years ago I took
a Tercel to Jiffy Lube. When the Tercel went in, it had pink coolant. When
it came out, it had green coolant.

"Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote in message
news:68d3$45622111[color=blue]
> As far as whether I would trust a dealership or JiffyLube or similar
> establishment, from my experience and in my opinion, I would trust a
> dealership to do a proper oil change before I trusted a quick oil change
> place. Dealership technicians go to factory sponsored technical classes
> while the person who does oil changes probably receives no formal
> training. Oil change chains will use cheapest oil filter they can get,
> while the dealership will use OEM filters, and most dealerships are
> competitive in oil change pricing. I have seen a lot more ruined engines
> caused by botched oil changes at quick lube places than at dealerships.
> --
> Ray O
> (correct punctuation to reply)[/color]

Most dealers that run quick lube operations do not send their oil change
"technicians" to any training classes.

When I go to an oil change place (not the dealer) I always bring my own
filter, and sometimes my own oil.

But I would never go to Jiffy Lube. There are other chains which are much
better. Locally owned franchised places (not corporate owned) are often the
best.

"Mark A" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:ANCdnejXK59kuv_YnZ2dnUVZ_ridnZ2d@comcast.com...[color=blue]
> "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote in message
> news:68d3$45622111[color=green]
>> As far as whether I would trust a dealership or JiffyLube or similar
>> establishment, from my experience and in my opinion, I would trust a
>> dealership to do a proper oil change before I trusted a quick oil change
>> place. Dealership technicians go to factory sponsored technical classes
>> while the person who does oil changes probably receives no formal
>> training. Oil change chains will use cheapest oil filter they can get,
>> while the dealership will use OEM filters, and most dealerships are
>> competitive in oil change pricing. I have seen a lot more ruined engines
>> caused by botched oil changes at quick lube places than at dealerships.
>> --
>> Ray O
>> (correct punctuation to reply)[/color]
>
> Most dealers that run quick lube operations do not send their oil change
> "technicians" to any training classes.[/color]

I do not know how many dealership service operations you are familiar with,
I have worked closely with aout 50 or so and have advised them on the pros
and cons of using traditional, group, or teams dispatch and production; how
to analyze and improve work mix, how to analyze and monitor technician and
shop productivity; and of course, the benefits of sending all technicians to
factory training classes and maintaining the proper technican skills mix to
control their cost of sales.

A smaller dealership service with less than 10 technicians generally cannot
justify someone dedicated to just oil changes, and so regular line
technicians generally perform all of the work, including oil changes.

Medium and large dealership service departments are more likely to use
advanced production techniques and/or employ union technicians and so hiring
someone dedicated just to oil changes is pretty much precluded.

I stand behind my statement that you are much more likely to have a trained
technician perform an oil change at a new vehicle dealership than at a quick
lube place. In an automaker's regional area, I'd hear of one botched oil
change performed by a dealership every year or two, while I'd hear of a
botched oil change done by a quick lube place about every other month,
keeping in mind that I would hear of every botched dealer job and only hear
of the botched quick lube jobs on cars that were under warranty.
[color=blue]
> When I go to an oil change place (not the dealer) I always bring my own
> filter, and sometimes my own oil.
>
> But I would never go to Jiffy Lube. There are other chains which are much
> better. Locally owned franchised places (not corporate owned) are often
> the best.[/color]

Having spent 15 years in the automotive business, my preference for oil
changes are the dealership or I do it myself. If you are particular about
how oil changes are performed, go through the bother to purchase your own
oil and OEM filter, double-check the oil change to make sure it is filled to
the full mark on the dipstick and the oil filter is new, then you may wish
to invest in the additional 15 ~ 20 minutes to change the oil and filter
yourself.
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

In article <ANCdnejXK59kuv_YnZ2dnUVZ_ridnZ2d@comcast.com>,
"Mark A" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
[color=blue]
> "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote in message
> news:68d3$45622111[color=green]
> > As far as whether I would trust a dealership or JiffyLube or similar
> > establishment, from my experience and in my opinion, I would trust a
> > dealership to do a proper oil change before I trusted a quick oil change
> > place. Dealership technicians go to factory sponsored technical classes
> > while the person who does oil changes probably receives no formal
> > training. Oil change chains will use cheapest oil filter they can get,
> > while the dealership will use OEM filters, and most dealerships are
> > competitive in oil change pricing. I have seen a lot more ruined engines
> > caused by botched oil changes at quick lube places than at dealerships.
> > --
> > Ray O
> > (correct punctuation to reply)[/color]
>
> Most dealers that run quick lube operations do not send their oil change
> "technicians" to any training classes.
>
> When I go to an oil change place (not the dealer) I always bring my own
> filter, and sometimes my own oil.
>
> But I would never go to Jiffy Lube. There are other chains which are much
> better. Locally owned franchised places (not corporate owned) are often the
> best.[/color]

They left the oil filler cap off my Camry after oil change once upon a
time. I didn't know anything was wrong until I got half way to work and
smelled burned oil. Now, IF I have oil changed by someone else I always
look under the hood before I leave, and check the oil level too.
Another time one other oil change place stripped the oil pan plug. That
turned out to be a mess. Ya really got to watch those guys. I've not
had any problem with the Toyota dealer oil changes.
--

On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 17:01:45 -0600, "Ray O"
<rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote:
[color=blue]
>
>"Mark A" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>news:ANCdnejXK59kuv_YnZ2dnUVZ_ridnZ2d@comcast.com...[color=green]
>> "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote in message
>> news:68d3$45622111[color=darkred]
>>> As far as whether I would trust a dealership or JiffyLube or similar
>>> establishment, from my experience and in my opinion, I would trust a
>>> dealership to do a proper oil change before I trusted a quick oil change
>>> place. Dealership technicians go to factory sponsored technical classes
>>> while the person who does oil changes probably receives no formal
>>> training. Oil change chains will use cheapest oil filter they can get,
>>> while the dealership will use OEM filters, and most dealerships are
>>> competitive in oil change pricing. I have seen a lot more ruined engines
>>> caused by botched oil changes at quick lube places than at dealerships.
>>> --
>>> Ray O
>>> (correct punctuation to reply)[/color]
>>
>> Most dealers that run quick lube operations do not send their oil change
>> "technicians" to any training classes.[/color]
>
>I do not know how many dealership service operations you are familiar with,
>I have worked closely with aout 50 or so and have advised them on the pros
>and cons of using traditional, group, or teams dispatch and production; how
>to analyze and improve work mix, how to analyze and monitor technician and
>shop productivity; and of course, the benefits of sending all technicians to
>factory training classes and maintaining the proper technican skills mix to
>control their cost of sales.
>
>A smaller dealership service with less than 10 technicians generally cannot
>justify someone dedicated to just oil changes, and so regular line
>technicians generally perform all of the work, including oil changes.
>
>Medium and large dealership service departments are more likely to use
>advanced production techniques and/or employ union technicians and so hiring
>someone dedicated just to oil changes is pretty much precluded.
>
>I stand behind my statement that you are much more likely to have a trained
>technician perform an oil change at a new vehicle dealership than at a quick
>lube place. In an automaker's regional area, I'd hear of one botched oil
>change performed by a dealership every year or two, while I'd hear of a
>botched oil change done by a quick lube place about every other month,
>keeping in mind that I would hear of every botched dealer job and only hear
>of the botched quick lube jobs on cars that were under warranty.
>[color=green]
>> When I go to an oil change place (not the dealer) I always bring my own
>> filter, and sometimes my own oil.
>>
>> But I would never go to Jiffy Lube. There are other chains which are much
>> better. Locally owned franchised places (not corporate owned) are often
>> the best.[/color]
>
>Having spent 15 years in the automotive business, my preference for oil
>changes are the dealership or I do it myself. If you are particular about
>how oil changes are performed, go through the bother to purchase your own
>oil and OEM filter, double-check the oil change to make sure it is filled to
>the full mark on the dipstick and the oil filter is new, then you may wish
>to invest in the additional 15 ~ 20 minutes to change the oil and filter
>yourself.[/color]

Here are a horror stories galore:
[url]http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota_engine.html[/url]


Did the apparent engine problems with the Sienna get fixed in the 2006
model?
jl

"Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote in message
news:73293$45623515> Having spent 15 years in the automotive business, my
preference for oil[color=blue]
> changes are the dealership or I do it myself. If you are particular about
> how oil changes are performed, go through the bother to purchase your own
> oil and OEM filter, double-check the oil change to make sure it is filled
> to the full mark on the dipstick and the oil filter is new, then you may
> wish to invest in the additional 15 ~ 20 minutes to change the oil and
> filter yourself.
> --
> Ray O
> (correct punctuation to reply)[/color]

I would like to change the oil myself, but I am not able to where I am
currently living. Also, I have noticed that as I get older that either cars
are getting lower, or I am getting wider. This makes it impossible to reach
the drain plug without raising the car up somehow.

I pay about $25-$30 for the standard oil change, plus about $22 for a
5-quart bottle of Mobil 1 5W-30 (purchased at Wal-Mart), plus about $10 for
a filter (usually Mobil 1). Since I use Mobil 1 full synthetic, I feel very
comfortable in using a 6,000 - 75000 mile oil change interval.

At a quick lube place (never Jiffy Lube) I stand about 10-15 feet from the
front of the car (outside the garage) and watch what they are doing.

"dbu'" <repubs@waitfor08.com> wrote in message
news:repubs-66975A.17064120112006@comcast.dca.giganews.com...[color=blue]
> They left the oil filler cap off my Camry after oil change once upon a
> time. I didn't know anything was wrong until I got half way to work and
> smelled burned oil. Now, IF I have oil changed by someone else I always
> look under the hood before I leave, and check the oil level too.
> Another time one other oil change place stripped the oil pan plug. That
> turned out to be a mess. Ya really got to watch those guys. I've not
> had any problem with the Toyota dealer oil changes.
> --[/color]

I have never had a problem with an oil change quick lube, but I try to stay
away from places that employ teenagers.

"Mark A" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:Ko6dnenSDZSPH__YnZ2dnUVZ_tqdnZ2d@comcast.com...[color=blue]
> "Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote in message
> news:73293$45623515> Having spent 15 years in the automotive business, my
> preference for oil[color=green]
>> changes are the dealership or I do it myself. If you are particular
>> about how oil changes are performed, go through the bother to purchase
>> your own oil and OEM filter, double-check the oil change to make sure it
>> is filled to the full mark on the dipstick and the oil filter is new,
>> then you may wish to invest in the additional 15 ~ 20 minutes to change
>> the oil and filter yourself.
>> --
>> Ray O
>> (correct punctuation to reply)[/color]
>
> I would like to change the oil myself, but I am not able to where I am
> currently living. Also, I have noticed that as I get older that either
> cars are getting lower, or I am getting wider. This makes it impossible to
> reach the drain plug without raising the car up somehow.
>
> I pay about $25-$30 for the standard oil change, plus about $22 for a
> 5-quart bottle of Mobil 1 5W-30 (purchased at Wal-Mart), plus about $10
> for a filter (usually Mobil 1). Since I use Mobil 1 full synthetic, I feel
> very comfortable in using a 6,000 - 75000 mile oil change interval.
>
> At a quick lube place (never Jiffy Lube) I stand about 10-15 feet from the
> front of the car (outside the garage) and watch what they are doing.[/color]

Even the low end of the prices you quoted comes to $57 for an oil change.
Our local Toyota dealer charges around $23 for an oil change that includes
an OEM filter, and even if you add $22 for the Mobil 1, that's $12 less than
the independent shop. Our local dealership is set up so that you can watch
the technician work on your car. Check around to see if any in your area
are set up so you can watch. For a little extra "comfort factor," choose a
dealership that has consistently received Toyota's Service Excellence and
President's awards. The criteria pretty much weeds out dishonest ones.

It sound like you are either pretty particular about the work done on your
car, or you do not trust the folks working on your car, or both. The vast
majority of the service departments I called on were very honest and
competent, IMO, much more so than the quick lube places. I am also pretty
particular about the work done on our cars, which is why I do most of the
work myself. Even from 10 feet away, there is no way to tell if the
technician wiped the oil filter mounting surface before installing the new
filter, if he over or under-tightened the filter or drain plug, or if he
installed a new drain plug gasket that the parts department gives me with
every OEM filter I buy. By doing this work myself, I know the work was done
correctly.

As far as a place to do the work, I'd cut a deal with a friend with a
garage, jack, and jack stands, or invest in a set of ramps.
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

Ray O wrote:[color=blue]
>
> I have worked closely with aout 50 or so and have advised them on the pros
> and cons of using traditional, group, or teams dispatch and production; how
> to analyze and improve work mix, how to analyze and monitor technician and
> shop productivity; and of course, the benefits of sending all technicians to
> factory training classes and maintaining the proper technican skills mix to
> control their cost of sales.
>
> A smaller dealership service with less than 10 technicians generally cannot
> justify someone dedicated to just oil changes, and so regular line
> technicians generally perform all of the work, including oil changes.
>
> Medium and large dealership service departments are more likely to use
> advanced production techniques and/or employ union technicians and so hiring
> someone dedicated just to oil changes is pretty much precluded.[/color]

One of the automotive technical schools that runs lots of infomercials
here, Universal Technical Institute ([url]www.uticorp.com)[/url], says that their
students start working at local dealerships long before graduating.
Is this a common practice, and if it is, what sort of work do they do
at the dealerships?

On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 04:21:03 GMT, Joe Lauton <JL@Lauton2000.com>
wrote:
[color=blue]
>Here are a horror stories galore:
>[url]http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota_engine.html[/url]
>
>
>Did the apparent engine problems with the Sienna get fixed in the 2006
>model?
>jl[/color]

None of those people had their oil changed.

Change your oil and you won't have a problem.


--

Scott in Florida

"larry moe 'n curly" <larrymoencurly@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1164095050.605441.131890@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...[color=blue]
>
> Ray O wrote:[color=green]
>>
>> I have worked closely with aout 50 or so and have advised them on the
>> pros
>> and cons of using traditional, group, or teams dispatch and production;
>> how
>> to analyze and improve work mix, how to analyze and monitor technician
>> and
>> shop productivity; and of course, the benefits of sending all technicians
>> to
>> factory training classes and maintaining the proper technican skills mix
>> to
>> control their cost of sales.
>>
>> A smaller dealership service with less than 10 technicians generally
>> cannot
>> justify someone dedicated to just oil changes, and so regular line
>> technicians generally perform all of the work, including oil changes.
>>
>> Medium and large dealership service departments are more likely to use
>> advanced production techniques and/or employ union technicians and so
>> hiring
>> someone dedicated just to oil changes is pretty much precluded.[/color]
>
> One of the automotive technical schools that runs lots of infomercials
> here, Universal Technical Institute ([url]www.uticorp.com)[/url], says that their
> students start working at local dealerships long before graduating.
> Is this a common practice, and if it is, what sort of work do they do
> at the dealerships?
>[/color]

Toyota sponsors the Toyota Technical Education Network, or T-TEN through
local community colleges. Toyota provides the schools with factory service
manuals, some special service tools, the curriculum for the courses that the
technicians take for factory certification, some cars and trucks. The
technicians who enroll in the 2 year program have to get an internship at a
Toyota dealership during their second year, after they have taken a couple
of generic automotive courses and while they are taking Toyota-specific
courses.

The advantage for the dealership if they give the student a full-time job
after graduation is that the student will have already taken most or all of
the courses offered to dealership technicians, with just time and real-world
experience needed for the tech to become productive. The advantage for
Toyota is that in theory, their dealers will have an easier time finding and
hiring technicians with a better understanding of how automotive systems
work instead of mechanics who are just part-changers.

The work the interns do at the dealership varies widely, from sweeping
floors to doing simple work on cars. The dealers who take training
seriously usually give the intern a week in the parts department and then
either assign them to work with an experienced technician or team or have
them work on cars for the used car department doing stuff like checking
brakes, changing fluids, etc. I'd say that most dealerships have interns
doing maintenance and inspections on used cars because they do not have the
time constraint that they do with a customer's car, and since the used car
department does not pay the same as a customer does, the service department
will assign the lowest-paid person to do their work. Service department
work can be divided into 2 general categories: maintenance and repair.
Maintenance work tends to be more profitable than repair work, which is why
you see so many places that do oil changes, brakes, shocks, mufflers,
tune-ups, etc.

The interns generally do not work on customer vehicles unless they are under
the direct supervision of an experienced technician. The practical reasons
for this are that the interns are usually not capable of diagnosing problems
and doing repairs by themselves, and the line technicians would all quit if
the lucrative maintenance work was assigned to a new technician.
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

"Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote in message
news:aa8df$456293ad$47c2b532[color=blue]
> Even the low end of the prices you quoted comes to $57 for an oil change.
> Our local Toyota dealer charges around $23 for an oil change that includes
> an OEM filter, and even if you add $22 for the Mobil 1, that's $12 less
> than the independent shop. Our local dealership is set up so that you can
> watch the technician work on your car. Check around to see if any in your
> area are set up so you can watch. For a little extra "comfort factor,"
> choose a dealership that has consistently received Toyota's Service
> Excellence and President's awards. The criteria pretty much weeds out
> dishonest ones.
>
> It sound like you are either pretty particular about the work done on your
> car, or you do not trust the folks working on your car, or both. The vast
> majority of the service departments I called on were very honest and
> competent, IMO, much more so than the quick lube places. I am also pretty
> particular about the work done on our cars, which is why I do most of the
> work myself. Even from 10 feet away, there is no way to tell if the
> technician wiped the oil filter mounting surface before installing the new
> filter, if he over or under-tightened the filter or drain plug, or if he
> installed a new drain plug gasket that the parts department gives me with
> every OEM filter I buy. By doing this work myself, I know the work was
> done correctly.
>
> As far as a place to do the work, I'd cut a deal with a friend with a
> garage, jack, and jack stands, or invest in a set of ramps.
> --
> Ray O[/color]

1. A dealer will not let me supply the oil, so the amount they would charge
for Mobil 1 is much higher. I forgot to mention that the quick lube place
gives me $5 off for bringing my own oil, and $1-2 off for bringing my own
filter.

2. But even if they let me supply the oil, I could not watch them pour it
in, so I would not know whether they used their own conventional oil or the
Mobil 1 I supplied them (either by mistake or intentionally).

3. I use a Mobil 1 filter, which costs about $5 more than the Toyota OEM
filter.

4. Actually, I would not say that I am overly "particular," but I have just
learned how to not get screwed by a quick lube place when I cannot change it
myself, or by a dealer (either through incompetence or fraud).

5. I don't anyone who changes their own oil, so it would not be easy for
someone to loan me their garage for me to change it.

6. I did try one of the oil extractors to remove the oil from the top, but
it only worked for one oil change and then after that I could not get enough
suction to remove all the oil.