Nitrogen in Tires

Hammo mumbled incoherently to the rest of alt.autos.toyota:
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>
>
>
> On 21/1/07 6:51 PM, in article
> [email]K_GdnTY2TOv7hi7YnZ2dnUVZ_u6rnZ2d@comcast.com[/email], "Mark A"
> <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
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>> "Hammo" <hbaj2006@aapt.net.au> wrote in message
>> news:C1D9563F.1D809%hbaj2006@aapt.net.au...[color=darkred]
>>> Sorry, I can't agree with your assessment of how the law is used. If
>>> you want to determine partial pressures related to effusion, it can be
>>> calculated.
>>>
>>> Permeate is different from effusion in what way?[/color]
>>
>> Permeate is moving through another molecular structure like rubber.
>> Effusion is moving through a hole.[/color]
>
> So they are the same. N2 and O2 are smaller than "rubber molecules" and
> will therefore be permeating / effusing through it (rubber).[/color]

Permeation involves adsorbtion onto a solid surface and passing through the
structure, only to undergo desorbtion at the far side. Effusion is
molecules passing directly through a substance without contact with the
other matter on the way through. For effusion you need VERY small molecules
and relatively large intermolecular gaps in the solid.

On 27/1/07 3:31 AM, in article [email]CPCdnaPbvs0CtifYnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@bt.com[/email],
"Coyoteboy" <coyoteboyuk@hotmail.com> wrote:
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> Hammo mumbled incoherently to the rest of alt.autos.toyota:[color=green]
>>"Mark A"<nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:[color=darkred]
>>> "Hammo" <hbaj2006@aapt.net.au> wrote in message
>>>> Sorry, I can't agree with your assessment of how the law is used. If
>>>> you want to determine partial pressures related to effusion, it can be
>>>> calculated.
>>>>
>>>> Permeate is different from effusion in what way?
>>>
>>> Permeate is moving through another molecular structure like rubber.
>>> Effusion is moving through a hole.[/color]
>>
>> So they are the same. N2 and O2 are smaller than "rubber molecules" and
>> will therefore be permeating / effusing through it (rubber).[/color]
>
> Permeation involves adsorbtion onto a solid surface and passing through the
> structure, only to undergo desorbtion at the far side. Effusion is
> molecules passing directly through a substance without contact with the
> other matter on the way through. For effusion you need VERY small molecules
> and relatively large intermolecular gaps in the solid.[/color]

Where are you obtaining this idea of adsorption from? It would be possible
to conclude that from your inference that it is state dependant and that is
surely not the case.

Don't forget structures like crown ethers and macrocyclic structures that
would also contradict your view point on permeate, adsorption and effuse.
Not to mention electrochemistry that is utilised to reclaim precious metals
from waste.

BTW, you might like to determine what you consider to be the size of a
"rubber molecule" (particularly w.r.t. the size of O2 or N2 and "rubber
sized intermolecular gaps)"? Or, is this a laminar vs turbulent flow issue
on a micro level?

Hammo

Actualy being a race car driver and mechanic putting nitrogen in your
tires is better...only because the atoms and molicules are bigger than
oxygen molicules meaning if you have a small puncture or during a turn
when your tires are stretched to the limits...it has less of a chance
to leak. because the atoms and molicules are larger than oxygen ones.
On Jan 19, 4:39 am, "D.D. Palmer" <ddpal...@hotmail.com> wrote:[color=blue]
> What do you folks know about using nitrogen instead of air in tires?[/color]

Enorym wrote:[color=blue]
> Actualy being a race car driver and mechanic putting nitrogen in
> your
> tires is better...only because the atoms and molicules are bigger
> than
> oxygen molicules meaning if you have a small puncture or during a
> turn
> when your tires are stretched to the limits...it has less of a
> chance
> to leak. because the atoms and molicules are larger than oxygen
> ones.
> On Jan 19, 4:39 am, "D.D. Palmer" <ddpal...@hotmail.com> wrote:[color=green]
>> What do you folks know about using nitrogen instead of air in
>> tires?[/color][/color]

If you have a small puncture, the difference in molecule size is going
to be irrelevant, any size puncture is "huge" compared to the size of
the molecules. And one more time, ordinary air is 80% Nitrogen. The
biggest advantage for race car is that "pure" nitrogen doesn't include
any water vapor. This makes the build-up of pressure as the tires heat
up more predictable. For passenger car tires this is not a concern.

Continental Tires address the use of notrogen on thie web site. From
[url]http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/us/en/continental/automobile/themes/contiacademy/drivers_ed/nitrogen.pdf[/url] :

Using Nitrogen in Tires

Nitrogen is an inert (non-flammable) gas - basically, nothing more
than dry air with oxygen removed. For example, ambient air contains
about 78% nitrogen. Because of nitrogen's inert properties, it is
often used in highly specialized tire service applications and/or
demanding environments. These tire service applications usually
include aircraft, mining, and commercial/heavy use. Also, nitrogen is
used in professional motor racing involving extreme vehicle speeds. We
understand that dry nitrogen is used in this regard to help reduce
tire pressure variations where even small differences in pressure can
affect vehicle handling at the extreme limits of performance.

For normal everyday consumer tire service applications, nitrogen tire
inflation is not required.

However, nitrogen tire inflation does not harm tires and may
marginally contribute to reductions in tire inflation loss by
permeation. Nevertheless, nitrogen will not prevent any tire inflation
loss caused by punctures, tire/rim interface (bead) leaks, valve
leaks, valve/rim interface leaks, wheel leaks, and other mechanical
leaks. Again, the use of nitrogen alone does not substitute for the
importance of regularly checking tire inflation pressure. If the tire
inflation pressure is below the pressure specified on the vehicle
placard, the tire must be re-inflated - whether with air or nitrogen -
to the proper inflation pressure. Do not operate tires underinflated
and/or overloaded (see "Warning").

Whether inflated with air or nitrogen, regular tire inflation pressure
maintenance remains critical and necessary. Use of nitrogen alone is
not a replacement for regular tire inflation pressure maintenance.

Ed

On 30/1/07 10:29 AM, in article [email]UuGdnas88fC6HyPYnZ2dnUVZ8sninZ2d@bt.com[/email],
"Coyoteboy" <coyoteboyuk@hotmail.com> wrote:
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> Hammo mumbled incoherently to the rest of alt.autos.toyota:[color=green]
>>
>> Where are you obtaining this idea of adsorption from? It would be
>> possible to conclude that from your inference that it is state dependant
>> and that is surely not the case.
>>
>> Don't forget structures like crown ethers and macrocyclic structures that
>> would also contradict your view point on permeate, adsorption and effuse.
>> Not to mention electrochemistry that is utilised to reclaim precious
>> metals from waste.
>>
>> BTW, you might like to determine what you consider to be the size of a
>> "rubber molecule" (particularly w.r.t. the size of O2 or N2 and "rubber
>> sized intermolecular gaps)"? Or, is this a laminar vs turbulent flow
>> issue on a micro level?
>>
>> Hammo[/color]
>
> I dont have time to think in that sort of depth, I was simply textbook
> explanations of them. I have my own equally interesting but complex
> problems to consider! But seeing as you seem to have a good knowledge feel
> free to explain away for us :)[/color]

Ha ha, fair enough, I no longer work in that field, and, like you find my
current challenges are more compelling. I need to stop procrastinating and
get the new motor into my ae82 Corolla and put another timing belt and
tensioner into the ae92!

Cheers
\
Hammo

Hammo mumbled incoherently to the rest of alt.autos.toyota:
[color=blue]
> Ha ha, fair enough, I no longer work in that field, and, like you find my
> current challenges are more compelling. I need to stop procrastinating and
> get the new motor into my ae82 Corolla and put another timing belt and
> tensioner into the ae92!
>
> Cheers
> \
> Hammo[/color]

My engine and box is out awaiting center differential backlash adjustment
and a new clutch, and might as well do a timing belt while im at it!

--
J
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