Re: Daniel Howes: Prices we pay for gas drive behavior

"Jim Higgins" <gordian238@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:12r9e68sho9en64@corp.supernews.com...[color=blue]
> Daniel Howes: Prices we pay for gas drive behavior
> [url]http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070122/AUTO02/701220338/1148/AUTO01[/url]
>
> W e Americans can have the collective attention span of 4-year-olds -- we
> want what we want when we want it and complain loudly when we don't get
> it.
>
> So last spring and summer, when gas prices were going through the roof and
> Big Oil was basically synonymous with Terrorism Inc.,
> politicians-cum-nannies fell all over themselves trying to soothe the
> whining because we're entitled to cheap gas, right? (Even if we aren't.)
>
> Right on cue, Gov. Jennifer Granholm led an election-year petition drive
> to cap oil company profits. Sen. Debbie Stabenow called for revoking tax
> breaks for Big Oil. President Bush lamented our "addiction" to the black
> gold even as he eased environmental restrictions on fuel and suspended
> deposits in the Strategic Petroleum Reserve.
>
> Higher gas tax in future?
>
> Now, gas has slipped below $2 a gallon in Michigan. Crude oil prices are
> slumping and global oil consumption, according to the Organization for
> Economic Cooperation and Development, last year declined for the first
> time in 20 years -- and it didn't take European-style fuel taxes or
> draconian legislation to get us there.
>
> What it took was simply a rational reaction to rising prices: When fuel
> gets too expensive, business and consumers buy less of it. Which is why
> the quickest, if not the wisest, way to cut fuel consumption and change
> behavior would be to sharply raise fuel taxes.
>
> It wouldn't be popular in most places or here in Detroit, where selling
> big SUVs and pickups still matters mightily to preventing erosion to the
> bottom line. Nor would it enhance the chances for Democrats to retain
> control of Congress in '08 or regain the White House.
>
> But it would work.
>
> The energy price slide probably isn't what Congressional Democrats or
> their friends in the environmental lobby want to see right now. It'd be
> easier to talk gas taxes or demonize Big Oil, Big Auto and even Toyota's
> gas-guzzlers in upcoming global warming hearings if gas hovered between $3
> or $4 a gallon and American dollars were swelling the petro-coffers of
> Iran, Russia and Saudi Arabia.
>
> Be green, or pay dearly
>
> Which isn't to say the hearings shouldn't take place. They should, because
> business today knows customers may not pay you to be green but they'll
> punish you if you aren't.
>
> Even our allegedly retrograde auto companies here in Detroit understand
> that the days of arguing the premise of a) global warming and b) fuel
> conservation and c) alternative powertrains and renewable fuels are pretty
> much long gone.
>
> What domestic politics, pressure tactics and business strategy haven't
> necessitated, the volatile Middle East, gyrating oil prices, the success
> of gas-electric hybrid vehicles and common sense have. This isn't your
> father's world.
>[/color]

My neighbors have solar electric. If it weren't for all the slow pokes who
provide food and other tangibles at higher prices I would say my neighbor's
adventure was a success. There's been enough studies. Just do it!!

In article <YoOdnbK5S8FeSynYnZ2dnUVZ_hynnZ2d@comcast.com>
[email]976-XXX@comcastnot.com[/email] "mark_digital©" writes:
[color=blue]
> My neighbors have solar electric. If it weren't for all the
> slow pokes who provide food and other tangibles at higher
> prices I would say my neighbor's adventure was a success.
> There's been enough studies. Just do it!![/color]

Or at the very least try solar water heating. It's easy enough
to integrate with conventional domestic (maybe commercial also)
water heating systems and can be warming up the hot tank during
the day, ready for the evening.

Have I commented before on how few such systems *.ca.us appears
to have? And so much spare sunshine. Weird folk. Maybe power
is still too cheap there. (But: go Arnie!)

(Side Note: In 1991, during a visit to NZ, I was shown a smart
gadget for warming water while camping. Think of a large black
plastic water bottle but with one side transparent. Fill it up
with unheated water. Lay on a thermally insulated surface with
the transparent side turned to the sun. Depending on sunlight,
soon the water is warm enough for showering &c. It came with a
shower nozzle attached and a loop to hang it by, IIRC.)
--
Andrew Stephenson

"Andrew Stephenson" <ames@deltrak.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1169484076snz@deltrak.demon.co.uk...[color=blue]
> In article <YoOdnbK5S8FeSynYnZ2dnUVZ_hynnZ2d@comcast.com>
> [email]976-XXX@comcastnot.com[/email] "mark_digital©" writes:
>[color=green]
>> My neighbors have solar electric. If it weren't for all the
>> slow pokes who provide food and other tangibles at higher
>> prices I would say my neighbor's adventure was a success.
>> There's been enough studies. Just do it!![/color]
>
> Or at the very least try solar water heating. It's easy enough
> to integrate with conventional domestic (maybe commercial also)
> water heating systems and can be warming up the hot tank during
> the day, ready for the evening.
>
> Have I commented before on how few such systems *.ca.us appears
> to have? And so much spare sunshine. Weird folk. Maybe power
> is still too cheap there. (But: go Arnie!)
>[/color]

I like the idea of using a solar pre-heater, but the last time I checked,
the break-even was something like 11 years, or about the life of the solar
collector.
[color=blue]
> (Side Note: In 1991, during a visit to NZ, I was shown a smart
> gadget for warming water while camping. Think of a large black
> plastic water bottle but with one side transparent. Fill it up
> with unheated water. Lay on a thermally insulated surface with
> the transparent side turned to the sun. Depending on sunlight,
> soon the water is warm enough for showering &c. It came with a
> shower nozzle attached and a loop to hang it by, IIRC.)
> --
> Andrew Stephenson
>[/color]

I have a Stearns SunShower
[url]http://www.basspro.com/servlet/catalog.TextId?hvarTextId=43677&hvarTarget=search&cmCat=SearchResults[/url]
that someone gave to me. We took it on a trip to the Boundary Waters
Wilderness Canoe Area between Minnesota and Canada. On a sunny day, with
air temps around 75 Fahrenheit (24 C), it took about 2 or 3 hours to heat
the lake water enough so that it actually felt warm. It is a great idea if
you are patient, which I am not. It was a lot faster to just jump in the
lake to clean off ;-)
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

"Andrew Stephenson" <ames@deltrak.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1169484076snz@deltrak.demon.co.uk...[color=blue]
> In article <YoOdnbK5S8FeSynYnZ2dnUVZ_hynnZ2d@comcast.com>
> [email]976-XXX@comcastnot.com[/email] "mark_digital©" writes:
>[color=green]
>> My neighbors have solar electric. If it weren't for all the
>> slow pokes who provide food and other tangibles at higher
>> prices I would say my neighbor's adventure was a success.
>> There's been enough studies. Just do it!![/color]
>
> Or at the very least try solar water heating. It's easy enough
> to integrate with conventional domestic (maybe commercial also)
> water heating systems and can be warming up the hot tank during
> the day, ready for the evening.[/color]

I agree with you 110%. I have a 125 gallon storage system and I still feel
great after all these years when I hear the shower go just about non-stop
for 4 people and the conventional system doesn't have to turn on. This time
of the year it does but only to bring the water to 140 degrees from about
100 degrees F. I think about all the service calls for tune-ups and general
cleanings my old conventional system required (it was a high efficiency unit
too at the time).
When my daughter was staying at hospices in Europe she would call home and
tell me the hot water was only available for short periods of time during
the day. She really appreciated coming home and having a luxury many of us
take for granted.

On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 14:09:57 -0500, "mark_digital©"
<976-XXX@comcastnot.com> wrote:
[color=blue]
>
>"Andrew Stephenson" <ames@deltrak.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:1169484076snz@deltrak.demon.co.uk...[color=green]
>> In article <YoOdnbK5S8FeSynYnZ2dnUVZ_hynnZ2d@comcast.com>
>> [email]976-XXX@comcastnot.com[/email] "mark_digital©" writes:
>>[color=darkred]
>>> My neighbors have solar electric. If it weren't for all the
>>> slow pokes who provide food and other tangibles at higher
>>> prices I would say my neighbor's adventure was a success.
>>> There's been enough studies. Just do it!![/color]
>>
>> Or at the very least try solar water heating. It's easy enough
>> to integrate with conventional domestic (maybe commercial also)
>> water heating systems and can be warming up the hot tank during
>> the day, ready for the evening.[/color]
>
>I agree with you 110%. I have a 125 gallon storage system and I still feel
>great after all these years when I hear the shower go just about non-stop
>for 4 people and the conventional system doesn't have to turn on. This time
>of the year it does but only to bring the water to 140 degrees from about
>100 degrees F. I think about all the service calls for tune-ups and general
>cleanings my old conventional system required (it was a high efficiency unit
>too at the time).
>When my daughter was staying at hospices in Europe she would call home and
>tell me the hot water was only available for short periods of time during
>the day. She really appreciated coming home and having a luxury many of us
>take for granted.
>[/color]

Hospices?



--

Scott in Florida

In article <b4861$45b4f93b$44a4a10d$21075@msgid.meganewsservers.com>
rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom "Ray O" writes:
[color=blue]
> I have a Stearns SunShower [...] On a sunny day, with air
> temps around 75 Fahrenheit (24 C), it took about 2 or 3 hours
> to heat the lake water enough so that it actually felt warm.
> It is a great idea if you are patient, which I am not. It was
> a lot faster to just jump in the lake to clean off ;-)[/color]

*brrr??* The temperature in NZ, IIRC, during December which is
their midsummer, would have been around that, maybe a bit more.
I won't say it got _hot_, just nicely warm. Could be UK/NZians
are hearty outdoorsy characters and rate cold as "warm"? <g>
--
Andrew Stephenson

On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 20:01:11 GMT, "Tomes" <askme@here.net> wrote:
[color=blue]
>"Andrew Stephenson" <ames@deltrak.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:1169484076snz@deltrak.demon.co.uk...[color=green]
>> In article <YoOdnbK5S8FeSynYnZ2dnUVZ_hynnZ2d@comcast.com>
>> [email]976-XXX@comcastnot.com[/email] "mark_digital©" writes:
>>[color=darkred]
>>> My neighbors have solar electric. If it weren't for all the
>>> slow pokes who provide food and other tangibles at higher
>>> prices I would say my neighbor's adventure was a success.
>>> There's been enough studies. Just do it!![/color]
>>
>> Or at the very least try solar water heating. It's easy enough
>> to integrate with conventional domestic (maybe commercial also)
>> water heating systems and can be warming up the hot tank during
>> the day, ready for the evening.
>>
>> Have I commented before on how few such systems *.ca.us appears
>> to have? And so much spare sunshine. Weird folk. Maybe power
>> is still too cheap there. (But: go Arnie!)
>>
>> (Side Note: In 1991, during a visit to NZ, I was shown a smart
>> gadget for warming water while camping. Think of a large black
>> plastic water bottle but with one side transparent. Fill it up
>> with unheated water. Lay on a thermally insulated surface with
>> the transparent side turned to the sun. Depending on sunlight,
>> soon the water is warm enough for showering &c. It came with a
>> shower nozzle attached and a loop to hang it by, IIRC.)
>>[/color]
>I can vouch for positive experience in both of these subjects. I have
>solar electric panels on my roof (installed at no cast to me as part of a
>program that I can talk about further if anyone cares). These work really
>well and helps the planet while saving me $$$.
>
>I also actually use the black bottle gadget with the nozzle regularly when
>we go vamping. It works quite well and if you leave it out too long you
>can burn yourself with the hot water. If you go to folk music festivals
>where thousands of folks are all camping you will see these all over the
>place.
>
>The Sun's energy is there for the taking. We just need to take it.
>Tomes
>[/color]

The Sun is a fusion reactor.

Better yet....construct fusion power plants....


--

Scott in Florida

On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 20:04:12 GMT, [email]ames@deltrak.demon.co.uk[/email] (Andrew
Stephenson) wrote:
[color=blue]
>In article <b4861$45b4f93b$44a4a10d$21075@msgid.meganewsservers.com>
> rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom "Ray O" writes:
>[color=green]
>> I have a Stearns SunShower [...] On a sunny day, with air
>> temps around 75 Fahrenheit (24 C), it took about 2 or 3 hours
>> to heat the lake water enough so that it actually felt warm.
>> It is a great idea if you are patient, which I am not. It was
>> a lot faster to just jump in the lake to clean off ;-)[/color]
>
>*brrr??* The temperature in NZ, IIRC, during December which is
>their midsummer, would have been around that, maybe a bit more.
>I won't say it got _hot_, just nicely warm. Could be UK/NZians
>are hearty outdoorsy characters and rate cold as "warm"? <g>[/color]

[url]http://www.wunderground.com/global/stations/93119.html[/url]


--

Scott in Florida

"Scott in Florida" <askifyouwant@mindspring.net> wrote in message
news:f78ar2p1i111kduv2ria6mvkf44bv4b1re@4ax.com...[color=blue]
> On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 20:04:12 GMT, [email]ames@deltrak.demon.co.uk[/email] (Andrew
> Stephenson) wrote:
>[color=green]
>>In article <b4861$45b4f93b$44a4a10d$21075@msgid.meganewsservers.com>
>> rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom "Ray O" writes:
>>[color=darkred]
>>> I have a Stearns SunShower [...] On a sunny day, with air
>>> temps around 75 Fahrenheit (24 C), it took about 2 or 3 hours
>>> to heat the lake water enough so that it actually felt warm.
>>> It is a great idea if you are patient, which I am not. It was
>>> a lot faster to just jump in the lake to clean off ;-)[/color]
>>
>>*brrr??* The temperature in NZ, IIRC, during December which is
>>their midsummer, would have been around that, maybe a bit more.
>>I won't say it got _hot_, just nicely warm. Could be UK/NZians
>>are hearty outdoorsy characters and rate cold as "warm"? <g>[/color]
>
> [url]http://www.wunderground.com/global/stations/93119.html[/url]
>
>
> --
>
> Scott in Florida
>[/color]

Looks like temps in NZ are slightly cooler than the temps in MN during our
trip.

I like nights in the 40 to 60 degree temp range for camping, although that
makes washing up in lakes and streams a little brisk!
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

"Scott in Florida" <askifyouwant@mindspring.net> wrote in message
news:3u7ar2hfua1qjucknl6up4nfe1mcm3dap9@4ax.com...
[color=blue][color=green]
>>The Sun's energy is there for the taking. We just need to take it.
>>Tomes
>>[/color]
>
> The Sun is a fusion reactor.
>
> Better yet....construct fusion power plants....
>
>[/color]

A central power plant is better overall because many dwellings simply don't
have enough access to sunlight. But if you've got the view....
I wish I could talk my wife into letting me install a soap stone stove.

"mark_digital©" <976-XXX@comcastnot.com> wrote in message
news:hemdndpy4Js5tyjYnZ2dnUVZ_tqnnZ2d@comcast.com...[color=blue]
>
> "Scott in Florida" <askifyouwant@mindspring.net> wrote in message
> news:3u7ar2hfua1qjucknl6up4nfe1mcm3dap9@4ax.com...
>[color=green][color=darkred]
>>>The Sun's energy is there for the taking. We just need to take it.
>>>Tomes
>>>[/color]
>>
>> The Sun is a fusion reactor.
>>
>> Better yet....construct fusion power plants....
>>
>>[/color]
>
> A central power plant is better overall because many dwellings simply
> don't have enough access to sunlight. But if you've got the view....
> I wish I could talk my wife into letting me install a soap stone stove.
>[/color]

To get this a little back on-topic, visit Lertola's Toyota in Proctor, VT.
The showroom is heated with a beautiful soap stone stove, and the owner used
to have a 2000 GT stashed away.
--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

I have a solar hot water heater at my Key West home that costs me a small
fortune in 2000. I also need a NG heater for when the 'Free' water is not
available. I don't have a problem but how many people can afford to buy
both systems, particularly where they have fewer sunny days than Key West?
After all wind solar, even gas, coal and oil were all given to us by the
good Lord, they are all available for free, it is the cost of getting,
distributing and maintaining their energy that costs money. ;)




mike


"Scott in Florida" <askifyouwant@mindspring.net> wrote in message
news:pb3ar2d7m0gohngqp1vonqv554mlcgjcn4@4ax.com...[color=blue]
> On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 14:09:57 -0500, "mark_digital©"
> <976-XXX@comcastnot.com> wrote:
>[color=green]
>>
>>"Andrew Stephenson" <ames@deltrak.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>>news:1169484076snz@deltrak.demon.co.uk...[color=darkred]
>>> In article <YoOdnbK5S8FeSynYnZ2dnUVZ_hynnZ2d@comcast.com>
>>> [email]976-XXX@comcastnot.com[/email] "mark_digital©" writes:
>>>
>>>> My neighbors have solar electric. If it weren't for all the
>>>> slow pokes who provide food and other tangibles at higher
>>>> prices I would say my neighbor's adventure was a success.
>>>> There's been enough studies. Just do it!!
>>>
>>> Or at the very least try solar water heating. It's easy enough
>>> to integrate with conventional domestic (maybe commercial also)
>>> water heating systems and can be warming up the hot tank during
>>> the day, ready for the evening.[/color]
>>
>>I agree with you 110%. I have a 125 gallon storage system and I still
>>feel
>>great after all these years when I hear the shower go just about non-stop
>>for 4 people and the conventional system doesn't have to turn on. This
>>time
>>of the year it does but only to bring the water to 140 degrees from about
>>100 degrees F. I think about all the service calls for tune-ups and
>>general
>>cleanings my old conventional system required (it was a high efficiency
>>unit
>>too at the time).
>>When my daughter was staying at hospices in Europe she would call home and
>>tell me the hot water was only available for short periods of time during
>>the day. She really appreciated coming home and having a luxury many of us
>>take for granted.
>>[/color]
>
> Hospices?
>
>
>
> --
>
> Scott in Florida
>[/color]

However what we us to 'take' it is very expensive and not very efficient.
One would be better served going the other direction, down. Go down less
than 50 feet with a heat exchanger, about the size of a small refrigerator,
where the temperature is a constant 55 degrees or so. You can air condition
at that temperature and one need only heat it 20 degrees to heat the house,
both of which are much more costly to do than heat water ;)

mike


"mark_digital©" <976-XXX@comcastnot.com> wrote in message
news:hemdndpy4Js5tyjYnZ2dnUVZ_tqnnZ2d@comcast.com...[color=blue]
>
> "Scott in Florida" <askifyouwant@mindspring.net> wrote in message
> news:3u7ar2hfua1qjucknl6up4nfe1mcm3dap9@4ax.com...
>[color=green][color=darkred]
>>>The Sun's energy is there for the taking. We just need to take it.
>>>Tomes
>>>[/color]
>>
>> The Sun is a fusion reactor.
>>
>> Better yet....construct fusion power plants....
>>
>>[/color]
>
> A central power plant is better overall because many dwellings simply
> don't have enough access to sunlight. But if you've got the view....
> I wish I could talk my wife into letting me install a soap stone stove.
>[/color]

"Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@mailcity.com> wrote in message
news:vrScndS0P-ye9SjYUSdV9g@ptd.net...[color=blue]
> However what we us to 'take' it is very expensive and not very efficient.
> One would be better served going the other direction, down. Go down less
> than 50 feet with a heat exchanger, about the size of a small
> refrigerator, where the temperature is a constant 55 degrees or so. You
> can air condition at that temperature and one need only heat it 20 degrees
> to heat the house, both of which are much more costly to do than heat
> water ;)
>
> mike
>
>[/color]

That seems like a practical and ecologically friendly solution; I am
surprised that it is not more widely implemented.


--

Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)

Perhaps it is time we listened to the engineers, not the environuts? ;)


mike


"Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote in message
news:a2079$45b5a21a$47c2b532$30571@msgid.meganewsservers.com...[color=blue]
>
> "Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@mailcity.com> wrote in message
> news:vrScndS0P-ye9SjYUSdV9g@ptd.net...[color=green]
>> However what we us to 'take' it is very expensive and not very efficient.
>> One would be better served going the other direction, down. Go down less
>> than 50 feet with a heat exchanger, about the size of a small
>> refrigerator, where the temperature is a constant 55 degrees or so. You
>> can air condition at that temperature and one need only heat it 20
>> degrees to heat the house, both of which are much more costly to do than
>> heat water ;)
>>
>> mike
>>
>>[/color]
>
> That seems like a practical and ecologically friendly solution; I am
> surprised that it is not more widely implemented.
>
>
> --
>
> Ray O
> (correct punctuation to reply)
>[/color]