"Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote in message
news:b3378$45d55607$47c2b532$29156@msgid.meganewsservers.com...[color=blue]
>
> "R PRINCETON" <rlanni@access4less.net> wrote in message
> news:occBh.2676$Jl.1463@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...[color=green]
>>I just got a prius and am a bit disappointed that it doesn't spend more
>>time
>> in electric only mode.
>>
>> My question is for those who have modified the car to spend more time in
>> electric mode: did you get better mileage?
>>
>> -thanks
>>
>> -ralph
>>[/color]
>
> The hybrid controller for the Prius is designed to keep the battery
> between 45% and 75% charged to prolong the life of the battery, so a
> modification that lets the battery get below 45% charge may shorten the
> battery pack's life.
>
> Adding additional batteries would theoretically allow the vehicle to spend
> more time in electric mode but then the engine would have to spend more
> time running to re-charge the battery.
>
>
> --
>
> Ray O
> (correct punctuation to reply)[/color]
Unless the excess of the engine and regenerative braking were underutilized
to begin with.
Unbelievable! 11 answers and counting and no-one answers my original
question! Are you all a bunch of politicians!?!?!?!
OK, enough ranting....
Ignoring, increased wear and tear on the batteries or engine, total energy
equations involving my old coal powered power plant; and any disturbances in
subspace temporal harmonics....
DID THE EV only switch increase peoples mileage? and by how much?
In article <cvzBh.3066$tD2.710@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>
[email]rlanni@access4less.net[/email] "R PRINCETON" writes:
[color=blue]
> Unbelievable! 11 answers and counting and no-one answers my original
> question! Are you all a bunch of politicians!?!?!?!
>
> OK, enough ranting....
>
> Ignoring, increased wear and tear on the batteries or engine, total energy
> equations involving my old coal powered power plant; and any disturbances in
> subspace temporal harmonics....
>
> DID THE EV only switch increase peoples mileage? and by how much?[/color]
Did you actually READ all the responses, to your questions and
the others you no doubt found when you no doubt Googled on the
recent traffic in this NG, and THINK about them?
The implication was that it's not worth doing. The car is set
to care for itself and the battery. "Mileage" is another word
for "efficiency" in this context. Greater efficiency turns on
making better overall use of the fuel put into the tank. Read
my past posts on my EV experiments (see recent Google). EV is
purely there to solve local problems unrelated to efficiency.
GOT IT? Thank you. That ends this party political broadcast.
--
Andrew Stephenson
"Hachiroku ????" <Trueno@AE86.gts> wrote in message
news:XDRBh.5880$am1.2065@trndny01...[color=blue]
> On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 20:33:21 +0000, R PRINCETON wrote:
>[color=green]
>> I have noticed that the ICV in my Prius runs way more often than I
>> expected, and for more than just recharging the batteries. The cute
>> animation in the LCD display clearly shows that most of the time the ICV
>> is powering the wheels, i.e., providing more power than the electric
>> motor
>> by itself can provide. I am suspicious that this is done so as to
>> improve the Prius's "drivability" in the US; i.e., greater acceleration.
>> Us Americans are accustomed to "tearing" away from the traffic light.[/color]
>
>
> This is exactly it. They use the Gas engine more in the US to provide the
> performance Americans expect.
>
> The funny thing is, the average American Prius driver drives the damn car
> like a silver-haired Granny in the 1964 F-85 she bought brand new 43 years
> ago. So adding the EV mode would be a good idea on Toyota's part. In the
> week I drove one, I spent some time crawling from a start, and found it
> did NOTHING! I was getting better mileage with an AT Tercel. When I
> started driving it 'normal', the numbers didn't budge.
>[/color]
If the traction battery has the charged potential to move the car 1000 ft it
doesn't matter if it's at acceleration from a dead stop or dispersed for the
next couple of miles.
So, I agree with your experience 100%. I disagree with your one week
assessment of mpg though, unless you filled the tank several times during
that week.
"who" <i@notaspammer.net> wrote in message
news:i-FAFC13.00570718022007@news.telus.net...[color=blue]
> In article <gTjBh.2094$x74.744@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> "Tomes" <askme@here.net> wrote:
>[color=green]
>> It is my unscientific belief that I regenerate more than I use,[/color]
>
> You believe in myths or is it perpetual motion?[/color]
I think you misunderstand the statement. If the meaning was "the car reuses
only part of the energy that was regenerated" that matches my experience and
even the logic - there is considerable loss and waste in the process. Toyota
says "up to 30%" of regenerated energy is reusable, so the process is pretty
lossy. But it isn't nearly as inefficient as getting the energy out of an
engine running at 10% power, so it still contributes to the overall gain.
There is a widespread misconception that regeneration is a major source of
the hybrid's efficiency advantage. In actuality, it is a very minor
contributor.
On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 10:50:42 -0500, You guess
<jackj^remove^180@adelphia.net> wrote:
[color=blue]
>On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 07:14:04 -0700, "Michael Pardee"
><michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:
>[color=green]
>>"You guess" <jackj^remove^180@adelphia.net> wrote in message
>>news:37gft253roh0tm5d721o4ebdb9ikh0a81r@4ax.com...[color=darkred]
>>>
>>> Stop and think about hybrids, what they are and how they work. Hybrids
>>> are nothing new, the railroads have been using them for since the
>>> 1940's. Almost all freight trains are pulled by diesel-electric
>>> locomotives. They use diesel-electric for one reason only. A pure
>>> diesel locomotive would require a clutch that you couldn't believe. It
>>> would have to slip for 10 minutes or more while the train was brought
>>> up to speed while transferring as much as 2,000 horse power to the
>>> traction wheels through a 50 speed transmission. The electrics take
>>> the place of this 40 foot diameter, electric fan cooled, multi-plate
>>> wet-clutch as well as the mechanical drive lines.
>>>[/color]
>>You are right about the way locomotives operate and why they are
>>diesel-electric (as are many truly huge machines). But you are mistaken to
>>call them hybrids - they have only one power source, the diesel engine. They
>>just have electric transmissions.[/color]
>
>Okay if you don't want to call a diesel-electric locomotive a hybrid,
>that's fine with me. But you shouldn't call hybrid cars hybrids
>either. They get all of their energy from their IC engine also. The
>only difference is that hybrid cars also have a mechanical drive train
>along with their electrical one.[color=green]
>>
>>Hybrids today get their main efficiency improvement from not using the
>>engine as much to do ludicrously inefficient work. As the OP noted, the
>>engine is still used at times that don't make a lot of sense. Blame that on
>>the infancy of the technology.[/color]
>
>No, it uses the IC engine more. The IC engine powers the car at all
>times, even when it isn't running. If the IC engine isn't running,
>the car is using energy produced by the IC engine at some time in the
>past and stored in the batteries.[color=green]
>>[color=darkred]
>>> Your hybrid car is a political solution to a political problem. Your
>>> car has to haul around heavy batteries, a big generator to recharge
>>> the batteries and all the electronics needed to control the electric
>>> motor, the charge going into the batteries and monitoring the
>>> condition of the batteries. Plus it STILL has a gas IC engine and
>>> fuel tank to haul around.
>>>[/color]
>>
>>Actually, it is an engineering solution to a fundamental conceptual problem.
>>Even as a teenager learning about cars I was struck by the horrible
>>inefficiencies of using large engines to put out negligible power for nearly
>>the entire range of the car's operation. But it was the '60s and gas was
>>cheap. When I first heard about hybrid power trains (around 20 years ago) I
>>immediately recognized them as the solution to the century-old problem.
>>[color=darkred]
>>>
>>> There is no way it can get the same over-all mileage and still have
>>> the same performance as a gasoline-only car.
>>>[/color]
>>
>>Ah - that's where you are 100% wrong. One of the central characteristics of
>>hybridization is that the acceleration performance is independent of the
>>power plant capacity, just as a conventional power train's performance is
>>independent of fuel tank size. The engine can be off or just plain dead
>>without affecting the immediate performance of a serial hybrid (none in
>>production yet, sadly). A serial hybrid is essentially an electric car with
>>a charging system on-board. Right now the technology exists to build a
>>serial hybrid that will give the hottest conventional power trains a run for
>>their money; a Tesla ([url]http://tinyurl.com/n52mh[/url]) with a small generator
>>tucked somewhere would qualify. Honda ([url]http://tinyurl.com/y96x8o[/url]) and Toyota
>>([url]http://tinyurl.com/2w379[/url]) have both demonstrated concept cars that clearly
>>fall in the high performance range and deliver fuel economy in the miser
>>range - 400 hp and an estimated 40 mpg for the parallel hybrid Honda and 400
>>hp and 32 mpg for the series-parallel hybrid Toyota. Honda engineers pointed
>>out in the Popular Mechanics article back then that using electrics for
>>torque provides off-the-line acceleration equivalent to a 600 hp
>>conventional power train. Toyota simply mentions 0-60 mph in 4 seconds.[/color]
>
>You're confusing acceleration performance with efficiency.[color=green]
>>
>>Mike
>>[/color]
>Mike, you can't ignore physics. It takes energy to accelerate mass.
>Increase the mass and you have to increase the energy input to
>maintain the same performance level. That's why all economy cars are
>small and light. More mass also equals higher rolling resistance
>which requires energy to overcome.
>
>You can use a battery and electric motor to increase the acceleration
>performance of a car with a small IC engine but you will have to put
>back the energy you have used at sometime in the future. Each time
>you convert from one form of energy to another, you will have losses
>which can't be overcome. You start out with the chemical energy
>contained in a gallon of gas. Then you burn that gas to produce heat
>energy but you can't capture all of the heat. You convert that heat
>energy into mechanical energy with an IC engine which has internal
>friction losses. Both hybrids and conventional cars have these same
>losses. To this, a hybrid car adds changing that mechanical energy
>into electrical energy using an alternator, friction losses and heat
>losses. You use that electrical energy to recharge a battery
>converting electrical energy back into chemical energy with it's
>associated losses. Then, at some time in the future, you discharge
>that battery converting its chemical energy back into electrical
>energy with more losses and that electrical energy back into
>mechanical energy with even more losses.[/color]
But you are neglecting the factors which make hybrids more efficient:
The electrical system provides a means of recovering kinetic energy
during braking. The energy which would have gone into heating the
brake rotors (and wearing out the pads) is converted to energy stored
in the battery. Virtually all of the battery charge comes from this
source. Even 50% efficiency in recovery of energy which would have
been wasted is efficient.
The availability of energy stored in the battery means that the engine
doesn't have to provide all the energy under conditions of maximum
demand. This allows the engine power to be down rated and therefore
run at more efficient (higher) power levels more of the time, e.g.
cruising.
The availability of electric drive allows the engine to be shut down
at times when it is least efficient, e.g. idle and low speed
operation.
But don't try to factor all this together, just look at it as a black
box. You put gas in and go farther and/or faster than in a comparable
non-hybrid car. What more evidence do you want?
[color=blue]
>There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. Perpitual motion is a
>thing of fiction. If you believe all of these conversion losses add
>up to an increase in efficiency then you might want to buy this
>ethanol plant I have for sale.[/color]
If it is in Scotland and they are aging it for at least 12 years, let
me know.
You act like hybrids are hydrogen fuel cells. People are driving
hybrids now and getting far better mileage than with conventional
cars. It is a proven, practical technology. Using your reasoning, a
Prius should be getting 16mpg and no one would be selling them, let
alone buying them.
[color=blue]
>Don't get me wrong, I like ethanol. When its aged in charred oak
>barrels for 10 years or so and then mixed with a little water. But
>burn it for fuel....man, that's just plain wrong.[/color]
But they make it with corn. If they were making it with barley, you
would have a point. ;-]
On Feb 17, 9:02 am, "Michael Pardee" <michaeltn...@cybertrails.com>
wrote:[color=blue]
>
> I've looked into the EV switch (available aftermarket) so I can move the car
> from the curb into the driveway without the usual condensation of acids in
> the exhaust. People who have put the switch in say it doesn't affect fuel
> economy either way - it's just for suppressing the engine operation when it
> isn't wanted.[/color]
That's been my reading of the usual use of the EV switch on the UK
NHW20 Prius (see: [url]http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Prius-UK/[/url] ) -
for moving the Prius a short distance when you don't want the engine
to come on (say, shifting a parking space or to not awaken the
family...)
The EV switch has several limitations to its use. You have to press
the button within the first 7 seconds after starting the car. It will
not stay in EV mode (will override your button) if the hybrid battery
is too hot, the charge is less than 4 bars, your speed is over 28mph,
and another reason or two I'm not remembering (hilly area?).
(Considering that the longest run I've heard of for a Prius in
electric-only was a UK driver who ran out of gas - was doing for 60mph
when ran out of gas, on a long downhill, and made it a little over 2
miles before the battery was down to 1-2 bars... (typical is 1 mile
tops on an OOG scenario.) With the 4 bars EV-mode limitation, you
probably won't get very far before the Prius overrides your EV choice
and turns the engine back on.)
I'll also note that Toyota USA has already stated:
[url]http://www.toyota.com/vehicles/2007/prius/faq.html[/url]
"25. Does Toyota support the modification of my Prius to be a plug-in
Hybrid and run on electric mode only with a switch?
Any such alterations, modifications or tampering with the vehicle
voids the warranty and is likely to be counterproductive for air
quality and Prius' durability and safety. "
There has also been a post or two from Toyota technicians on other
Prius discussion groups that they've been told to cease working on any
Prius they find (and do no warranty work) if they discover any such
modification...
I'll note that there are many differences between the North American
NHW20 Prius and its worldly cousin, besides the EV button... NA has
15" wheels (elsewhere 16"), different suspension, NA has the bladder
fuel tank and the CHHS (thermos), among others... (US is the only
place I've noticed as having HID headlamps as an option, for
example.) Outside the US the Prius also has the IPA (Integrated
Parking Assist) as an option, too (was first introduced on the Prius
in 2003 in Japan, is now being offered on some US Lexus models...)
On Feb 16, 10:14 am, "Tomes" <a...@here.net> wrote:
[color=blue]
> It is my unscientific belief that I regenerate more than I use, based upon
> my observation that I am in the green a lot and hardly ever go below half
> of the blue. Thus, I would like to use the electric moreso that it does
> by default.[/color]
You can view the NHW20 Prius battery charge levels at:
[url]http://privatenrg.com/#Full_SOC[/url]
You'd know if you regenerated too much energy by your Prius trying to
get rid of extra charge. People who have just come down a long
downhill (mountain) often report that at a stop their engine will
cycle on/off repeatedly. The Prius will try to bleed off the high SOC
by having one of the electric motors repeatedly start and spin the
gasoline engine...
(Also, if the hybrid battery cannot accept any more charge, it simply
will not. You will no longer have regenerative braking, and will be
switched to a higher percentage of conventional hydrolic braking.)
If you are just driving around in the green and don't notice anything
else different, then you aren't regenerating more than you can use...
In article <1171823497.192148.279900@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups.com>
[email]mrv@kluge.net[/email] "mrv@kluge.net" writes:
[color=blue]
> The EV switch has several limitations to its use. You have to
> press the button within the first 7 seconds after starting the
> car. [...][/color]
Not on mine -- 2005 UK "T4". It has accepted the EV command as
late as about 10 minutes into a run. Haven't tested any later.
[color=blue]
> It will not stay in EV mode (will override your button) if the
> hybrid battery is too hot, the charge is less than 4 bars,
> [...][/color]
Again we differ. Sorry. Mine let it reduce to two bars. (See
my past report of "EV" tests done locally.)
The rest of what you say I am okay with, or cannot comment.
--
Andrew Stephenson
"Andrew Stephenson" <ames@deltrak.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1171821912snz@deltrak.demon.co.uk...[color=blue]
> In article <rh2ht29qdd7068bbkge1qgvb7v9r0sc28d@4ax.com>
> [email]RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com[/email] "Gordon McGrew" writes:
>[color=green]
>> [...]
>>
>> But you are neglecting the factors which make hybrids more
>> efficient:
>>
>> The electrical system provides a means of recovering kinetic
>> energy during braking. The energy which would have gone into
>> heating the brake rotors (and wearing out the pads) is
>> converted to energy stored in the battery. [...][/color]
>
> Most anti-hybrid kooks are narrowband thinkers. They don't like
> to see the world as a web of influences. A simple straight line
> is about as complex as they can handle. For example, your point
> about the regeneration system sparing the vehicle's brakes ought
> to suggest to them another indirect saving: less wear on brakes;
> longer intervals between replacements; less use of materials and
> energy in their manufacture/replacement; and lower bills. Yet I
> live in hope that it'll click for them, one day.
> --
> Andrew Stephenson
>[/color]
The engine isn't subjected to the strains of differing torque. The motor
handles that load quite nicely. Extra fuel usually needed (remember the
accelerator pump?) when lightly stepping up the speed is nicely handled by
the motor instead.
If someone wanted to get off the starting line as fast as I can they better
re-do their fuel economy calculations and stop lying through the teeth about
that one-time 36 mpg fillup. Man! You might think us hybrid owners just fell
off the alien turnip truck.
mark_
"You guess" <jackj^remove^180@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:1sogt2d22bgfhisiksaapvu88dnls9itro@4ax.com...[color=blue]
> On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 07:14:04 -0700, "Michael Pardee"
> <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:
>[color=green]
>>
>>Hybrids today get their main efficiency improvement from not using the
>>engine as much to do ludicrously inefficient work. As the OP noted, the
>>engine is still used at times that don't make a lot of sense. Blame that
>>on
>>the infancy of the technology.[/color]
>
> No, it uses the IC engine more. The IC engine powers the car at all
> times, even when it isn't running. If the IC engine isn't running,
> the car is using energy produced by the IC engine at some time in the
> past and stored in the batteries.[color=green]
>>[color=darkred]
>>> Your hybrid car is a political solution to a political problem. Your
>>> car has to haul around heavy batteries, a big generator to recharge
>>> the batteries and all the electronics needed to control the electric
>>> motor, the charge going into the batteries and monitoring the
>>> condition of the batteries. Plus it STILL has a gas IC engine and
>>> fuel tank to haul around.
>>>[/color]
>>
>>Actually, it is an engineering solution to a fundamental conceptual
>>problem.
>>Even as a teenager learning about cars I was struck by the horrible
>>inefficiencies of using large engines to put out negligible power for
>>nearly
>>the entire range of the car's operation. But it was the '60s and gas was
>>cheap. When I first heard about hybrid power trains (around 20 years ago)
>>I
>>immediately recognized them as the solution to the century-old problem.
>>[color=darkred]
>>>
>>> There is no way it can get the same over-all mileage and still have
>>> the same performance as a gasoline-only car.
>>>[/color]
>>
>>Ah - that's where you are 100% wrong. One of the central characteristics
>>of
>>hybridization is that the acceleration performance is independent of the
>>power plant capacity, just as a conventional power train's performance is
>>independent of fuel tank size. The engine can be off or just plain dead
>>without affecting the immediate performance of a serial hybrid (none in
>>production yet, sadly). A serial hybrid is essentially an electric car
>>with
>>a charging system on-board. Right now the technology exists to build a
>>serial hybrid that will give the hottest conventional power trains a run
>>for
>>their money; a Tesla ([url]http://tinyurl.com/n52mh[/url]) with a small generator
>>tucked somewhere would qualify. Honda ([url]http://tinyurl.com/y96x8o[/url]) and
>>Toyota
>>([url]http://tinyurl.com/2w379[/url]) have both demonstrated concept cars that
>>clearly
>>fall in the high performance range and deliver fuel economy in the miser
>>range - 400 hp and an estimated 40 mpg for the parallel hybrid Honda and
>>400
>>hp and 32 mpg for the series-parallel hybrid Toyota. Honda engineers
>>pointed
>>out in the Popular Mechanics article back then that using electrics for
>>torque provides off-the-line acceleration equivalent to a 600 hp
>>conventional power train. Toyota simply mentions 0-60 mph in 4 seconds.[/color]
>
> You're confusing acceleration performance with efficiency.[color=green]
>>[/color][/color]
What I am pointing out is that efficiency has increased along with
performance - that is a basic characteristic of hybrid cars. Your premise
was that it couldn't be done.
[color=blue][color=green]
>>[/color]
> Mike, you can't ignore physics. It takes energy to accelerate mass.
> Increase the mass and you have to increase the energy input to
> maintain the same performance level. That's why all economy cars are
> small and light. More mass also equals higher rolling resistance
> which requires energy to overcome.
>[/color]
If all we were doing was accelerating mass, there wouldn't be an issue. The
fallacy is that it takes some specific energy to accomplish the movement of
mass from one place to another, even if the height of the two points is the
same. That is not true at all; the efficiency of that operation is always
zero since the final potential energy is the same as the initial potential
energy. The question is how much energy is going to be wasted in the losses.
For the sake of argument we can keep the frictional losses the same, in
which case the question is in the efficiency of the motive source. That is
where conventional power trains are so dismal, running at a tiny fraction of
their full power output and suffering the staggering losses that go with it.
Hybrids make their biggest gains by using the power plant more efficiently.
Not that much more efficiently at this stage, but doubling the efficiency
from dismal to lousy is no big trick. There is something very wrong with
using a power train that is less efficient at 30 mph than at 60 mph.
The proof is in the actual performance - even hybrids such as the Prius
typically double the fuel economy of equivalent conventional cars in town.
On the highway, where the air resistance losses are dominant, the advantage
is much lower.
In alt.autos.toyota Michael Pardee <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:[color=blue]
>
> There is a widespread misconception that regeneration is a major source
> of the hybrid's efficiency advantage. In actuality, it is a very minor
> contributor.[/color]
What are the major contributors, then?
I'd have to assume shutting down the engine at stoplights helps a lot
for the EPA city mileage number.
Good aerodynamics and tires with low rolling resistance, certainly.
Thinking about it, regeneration might be minor, but not "very" minor.
What else could cause the jump from 30 to 50 MPG?
On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 09:53:52 -0800, [email]mrv@kluge.net[/email] wrote:
[color=blue][color=green]
>> The funny thing is, the average American Prius driver drives the damn
>> car like a silver-haired Granny in the 1964 F-85 she bought brand new 43
>> years ago. So adding the EV mode would be a good idea on Toyota's part.
>> In the week I drove one, I spent some time crawling from a start, and
>> found it did NOTHING! I was getting better mileage with an AT Tercel.
>> When I started driving it 'normal', the numbers didn't budge.[/color]
>
> Yes, and you've already said that that was on a pre-production model in
> 2000. The car has had numerous changes since then! I suggest that you
> try another week test drive in a current NHW20 Prius.
>
> (There's also far better emissions controls (notorious for lowering fuel
> economy) since your AT Tercel... and I won't get into the apples and
> oranges of comparing a manual to an automatic CVT...)[/color]
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