Re: No MP3 CD Players and Lying Salesman

> "Mark A" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in message[color=blue]
> news:apSdnd-agv8XxITfRVn-uQ@comcast.com...[color=green][color=darkred]
> >>[/color]
> > Toyota neither designs nor builds the receivers.[/color]
>
> It's not about building them. OEMs don't make a lot of what goes in their
> cars. Certain OEM's don't build any part of certain models of their line.
>
> Anyway, you cannot just swap a component into a car you're building. They
> might do it on TV, but when you have to make a couple million (and waranty
> them), there's slightly more consideration than a dollar compairson.
>
> Regards,
>
> Robin
>[/color]
You may (or may not) know something about auto manufacturing, but you don't
know beans about car stereo equipment. To compare parts that Toyota designs
and specs out for vendors to make for them with the generic stereo's they
put in their vehicles is ridiculous.

The Toyota stereos may have proprietary cabling (to encourage people to buy
Toyota stereo upgrades like CD changers) but the technology is off the shelf
stuff, that as others have noted, is a little behind the technology curve.
It might cost Toyota more to purchase a receiver with a MP3, but Toyota does
not have to do any design, testing, R&D, etc, anymore than they have to that
if they offer FM frequency on their radios (believe it or not, at one time
car radios did not have FM).

On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 22:27:12 -0800, Mark A wrote:
[color=blue][color=green]
>> "Mark A" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>> news:apSdnd-agv8XxITfRVn-uQ@comcast.com...[color=darkred]
>> >>
>> > Toyota neither designs nor builds the receivers.[/color]
>>
>> It's not about building them. OEMs don't make a lot of what goes in
>> their cars. Certain OEM's don't build any part of certain models of
>> their line.
>>
>> Anyway, you cannot just swap a component into a car you're building.
>> They might do it on TV, but when you have to make a couple million (and
>> waranty them), there's slightly more consideration than a dollar
>> compairson.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Robin
>>[/color]
> You may (or may not) know something about auto manufacturing, but you
> don't know beans about car stereo equipment. To compare parts that
> Toyota designs and specs out for vendors to make for them with the
> generic stereo's they put in their vehicles is ridiculous.
>
> The Toyota stereos may have proprietary cabling (to encourage people to
> buy Toyota stereo upgrades like CD changers) but the technology is off
> the shelf stuff, that as others have noted, is a little behind the
> technology curve. It might cost Toyota more to purchase a receiver with
> a MP3,[/color]
[color=blue]
> but Toyota does not have to do any design, testing, R&D, etc,
> anymore than they have to that if they offer FM frequency on their
> radios (believe it or not, at one time car radios did not have FM).[/color]

No design, testing or R&D? Since when? Name one car on the road where
you can walk into any Best Buy and find the exact same model. Most cars
have radios that are custom made to have the same look and style as the
rest of the car. Most are also very simple with only the basic controls
for ease of use. So Toyota at least has custom radios built that have the
look they want.

Looking at the wiring diagram for my '93 truck. The two rear speakers
have an amp built in and the radio has some custom wires to run it. So, I
don't think the guts inside the radio are off the shelf parts. (As one
unit. I am sure the tape deck gears and stuff was used other models as
well.)

So Toyota designed it, and to keep the quality up, you can bet they are
going to test it. R&D is not going to be much as it is a radio that has
been done years ago. It all cost $$$.

"Eddie" <no@spamatall.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.02.22.09.57.28.359965.5698@spamatall.com...[color=blue]
> On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 22:27:12 -0800, Mark A wrote:
>[color=green][color=darkred]
> >> "Mark A" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> >> news:apSdnd-agv8XxITfRVn-uQ@comcast.com...
> >> >>
> >> > Toyota neither designs nor builds the receivers.
> >>
> >> It's not about building them. OEMs don't make a lot of what goes in
> >> their cars. Certain OEM's don't build any part of certain models of
> >> their line.
> >>
> >> Anyway, you cannot just swap a component into a car you're building.
> >> They might do it on TV, but when you have to make a couple million (and
> >> waranty them), there's slightly more consideration than a dollar
> >> compairson.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Robin
> >>[/color]
> > You may (or may not) know something about auto manufacturing, but you
> > don't know beans about car stereo equipment. To compare parts that
> > Toyota designs and specs out for vendors to make for them with the
> > generic stereo's they put in their vehicles is ridiculous.
> >
> > The Toyota stereos may have proprietary cabling (to encourage people to
> > buy Toyota stereo upgrades like CD changers) but the technology is off
> > the shelf stuff, that as others have noted, is a little behind the
> > technology curve. It might cost Toyota more to purchase a receiver with
> > a MP3,[/color]
>[color=green]
> > but Toyota does not have to do any design, testing, R&D, etc,
> > anymore than they have to that if they offer FM frequency on their
> > radios (believe it or not, at one time car radios did not have FM).[/color]
>
> No design, testing or R&D? Since when? Name one car on the road where
> you can walk into any Best Buy and find the exact same model. Most cars
> have radios that are custom made to have the same look and style as the
> rest of the car. Most are also very simple with only the basic controls
> for ease of use. So Toyota at least has custom radios built that have the
> look they want.
>
> Looking at the wiring diagram for my '93 truck. The two rear speakers
> have an amp built in and the radio has some custom wires to run it. So, I
> don't think the guts inside the radio are off the shelf parts. (As one
> unit. I am sure the tape deck gears and stuff was used other models as
> well.)
>
> So Toyota designed it, and to keep the quality up, you can bet they are
> going to test it. R&D is not going to be much as it is a radio that has
> been done years ago. It all cost $$$.[/color]

I agree with Mark A that changing a stereo is not a big deal. I would think
that they could easily select a manufacturer that has been doing MP3 for
several years and has established a reliable and mature product. As far as
making the front panel match the car, that can be easily changed without
affecting the real design of the stereo, the electronic components.

My company has done business with several automotive based companies, mainly
machine shops and forging houses. They all uniformly wanted to reduce their
dependancy on auto companies who unmercifully beat them up on prices and
even mandate future automatic price decreases (I not sure if Toyota was one
of the companies they did business with, I heard Ford, GM and Chrysler
mentioned).
The point is, at least in mechanical parts, the auto makers dictate what
they want, when they want it and the price they want it at. I think it would
be no different for electronic component suppliers, maybe worse since cost
of electronic equipment drops rapidly with quantity increases. I can easily
imagine that Toyota could just impose an MP3 capability on their suppliers
without a cost increase.

"Eddie" <no@spamatall.com> wrote in message[color=blue]
> No design, testing or R&D? Since when? Name one car on the road where
> you can walk into any Best Buy and find the exact same model. Most cars
> have radios that are custom made to have the same look and style as the
> rest of the car. Most are also very simple with only the basic controls
> for ease of use. So Toyota at least has custom radios built that have the
> look they want.
>
> Looking at the wiring diagram for my '93 truck. The two rear speakers
> have an amp built in and the radio has some custom wires to run it. So, I
> don't think the guts inside the radio are off the shelf parts. (As one
> unit. I am sure the tape deck gears and stuff was used other models as
> well.)
>
> So Toyota designed it, and to keep the quality up, you can bet they are
> going to test it. R&D is not going to be much as it is a radio that has
> been done years ago. It all cost $$$.[/color]

Yes, it would cost a bit more for Toyota to add MP3 to the receiver. But
Toyota does not have to design it and the testing would be trivial because
the change is inside the receiver and does not affect speakers or other
external wiring. All of the manufacturers have built MP3 capable receivers
and they know how to do it.

If Toyota makes 1 million vehicles per year, then a $10 increase in cost is
$10,000,000. It a marketing decision, not an engineering decision.

"Mark A" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:DbOdnaVFQpu8sobfRVn-jA@comcast.com...[color=blue]
>
> If Toyota makes 1 million vehicles per year, then a $10 increase in cost
> is
> $10,000,000. It a marketing decision, not an engineering decision.[/color]

Looks like the automotive design/manufacturing/marketing/support guru has
spoken. Phew. That cleared everything up...

Regards,

Robin

"rg" <no@noway.com> wrote in message news:kXESd.3299$iw1.1464@fe04.lga...[color=blue]
>
> I agree with Mark A that changing a stereo is not a big deal. I would
> think
> that they could easily select a manufacturer that has been doing MP3 for
> several years and has established a reliable and mature product.[/color]

You would think? Nice to think when it's not your money or your life you're
dealing with...
[color=blue]
> As far as
> making the front panel match the car, that can be easily changed[/color]

Really? Do you know how much it costs to build and impliment new tooling for
a vehicle?
[color=blue]
> without
> affecting the real design of the stereo, the electronic components.
>
> My company has done business with several automotive based companies,
> mainly
> machine shops and forging houses. They all uniformly wanted to reduce
> their
> dependancy on auto companies who unmercifully beat them up on prices and
> even mandate future automatic price decreases (I not sure if Toyota was
> one
> of the companies they did business with, I heard Ford, GM and Chrysler
> mentioned).[/color]

How much extra money are you willing to pay for your new vehicle so that an
automotive supplier can be cheap and lazy?
[color=blue]
> The point is, at least in mechanical parts, the auto makers dictate what
> they want, when they want it and the price they want it at.[/color]

I don't think _anyone_ has that luxury.
[color=blue]
> I think it would
> be no different for electronic component suppliers, maybe worse since cost
> of electronic equipment drops rapidly with quantity increases. I can
> easily
> imagine that Toyota could just impose an MP3 capability on their suppliers
> without a cost increase.[/color]

There's the at word again, "imagine".

I'm not defending Toyota, but why do you think that changing the stereo, or
any other component on a car is so bloody simple? Toyota's legendary
reliability is not by coincidence - it is by design.

Regards,

Robin

> > As far as[color=blue][color=green]
> > making the front panel match the car, that can be easily changed[/color]
>
> Really? Do you know how much it costs to build and impliment new tooling[/color]
for[color=blue]
> a vehicle?
>[/color]
You don't have to retool the vehicle to install a receiver with MP3. It's
all inside the box. If the old receiver fit the dash, then they can make a
new receiver with MP3 to fit the exact same size. How hard can it be, since
thousands of teenage kids do it everyday at BestBuy car stereo installation
shops every day.

"Mark A" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:jqednUOgxMqnLobfRVn-uQ@comcast.com...[color=blue][color=green]
>>[/color]
> You don't have to retool the vehicle to install a receiver with MP3. It's
> all inside the box. If the old receiver fit the dash, then they can make a
> new receiver with MP3 to fit the exact same size. How hard can it be,
> since
> thousands of teenage kids do it everyday at BestBuy car stereo
> installation
> shops every day.[/color]

That's certainly true. Building an MP3 player which fits into a previously
designed dash should be no issue.

Regards,

Robin

"Robin S." <lasernerd@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:DZNSd.21370$Am3.679675@news20.bellglobal.com...[color=blue]
>
> "rg" <no@noway.com> wrote in message news:kXESd.3299$iw1.1464@fe04.lga...[color=green]
> >
> > I agree with Mark A that changing a stereo is not a big deal. I would
> > think
> > that they could easily select a manufacturer that has been doing MP3 for
> > several years and has established a reliable and mature product.[/color]
>
> You would think? Nice to think when it's not your money or your life[/color]
you're[color=blue]
> dealing with...[/color]

We are talking about a STEREO here, how the hell is that life threatening?
[color=blue]
>[color=green]
> > As far as
> > making the front panel match the car, that can be easily changed[/color]
>
> Really? Do you know how much it costs to build and impliment new tooling[/color]
for[color=blue]
> a vehicle?[/color]

I know how much injection molding tooling costs because my company has used
and therefore bought tooling for lots of injection molded parts. If a
revised stereo fits in the same hole in the dash and exists in the same
volume that it previously did then there is no "new tooling for a vehicle".
[color=blue]
>[color=green]
> > without
> > affecting the real design of the stereo, the electronic components.
> >
> > My company has done business with several automotive based companies,
> > mainly
> > machine shops and forging houses. They all uniformly wanted to reduce
> > their
> > dependancy on auto companies who unmercifully beat them up on prices and
> > even mandate future automatic price decreases (I not sure if Toyota was
> > one
> > of the companies they did business with, I heard Ford, GM and Chrysler
> > mentioned).[/color]
>
> How much extra money are you willing to pay for your new vehicle so that[/color]
an[color=blue]
> automotive supplier can be cheap and lazy?[/color]
[color=blue]
>[color=green]
> > The point is, at least in mechanical parts, the auto makers dictate what
> > they want, when they want it and the price they want it at.[/color]
>
> I don't think _anyone_ has that luxury.[/color]

Go to Detriot and talk with automotive based machine shops, forgers, and
gear companies. I have and they have all told me the same thing. It's
similiar to Wal Mart, when you buy the quantity they do you can control the
price.
[color=blue]
>[color=green]
> > I think it would
> > be no different for electronic component suppliers, maybe worse since[/color][/color]
cost[color=blue][color=green]
> > of electronic equipment drops rapidly with quantity increases. I can
> > easily
> > imagine that Toyota could just impose an MP3 capability on their[/color][/color]
suppliers[color=blue][color=green]
> > without a cost increase.[/color]
>
> There's the at word again, "imagine".
>
> I'm not defending Toyota, but why do you think that changing the stereo,[/color]
or[color=blue]
> any other component on a car is so bloody simple? Toyota's legendary
> reliability is not by coincidence - it is by design.[/color]

Mark A answered this question, because thousands of kids do it everyday at
Best Buy.

I'm not saying every component is easy to change and free of safety
considerations, I'm only talking about STEREOS.

[color=blue]
>
> Regards,
>
> Robin
>
>[/color]

Coincidentally, a Crutchfield catalog came in the mail yesterday.
It got me thinking about car radios. Many of the currently
available car radios not only play MP3s, but also WMAs.
And that reminded me that I convert all our CDs to WMAs
for our iRiver and Creative "MP3 players", as WMA has better
quality and smaller file size than MP3. So the real question
is when are they going to support MP3 _and_ WMA.

The catalog also shows a JVC that supports SD cards.
Put those tunes on a 1 GB SD card and plug them into
your car radio. I guess that will be a long way off
since Toyota doesn't even support MP3 or WMA.


Related but different issue:
2004 Highlander with the JBL radio with the CD changer
2004 RAV4 with the JBL radio with a single CD slot

I copy our purchased CDs to use in the cars. (I'm concerned
about scratching them, those 100 degree summer days with
the CDs left inside the car, getting them stolen from the car,
etc.) CDA format, of course.

For the _same_ CD, in the Highlander a volume setting of 7
is just right. In the RAV4, to get an equivalent loudness,
I have to set the volume to 25. Both are stock JBLs.
Is there something wrong with the RAV4 radio?

"rg" <no@noway.com> wrote in message news:9HZSd.17318$4I5.8646@fe07.lga...[color=blue][color=green]
>>
>> You would think? Nice to think when it's not your money or your life[/color]
> you're[color=green]
>> dealing with...[/color]
>
> We are talking about a STEREO here, how the hell is that life threatening?[/color]

Electrical issues. Perhaps it doesn't seem like much, but I wonder how much
it costs to recall a couple hundred thousand vehicles.
[color=blue][color=green]
>>
>> Really? Do you know how much it costs to build and impliment new tooling[/color]
> for[color=green]
>> a vehicle?[/color]
>
> I know how much injection molding tooling costs because my company has
> used
> and therefore bought tooling for lots of injection molded parts. If a
> revised stereo fits in the same hole in the dash and exists in the same
> volume that it previously did then there is no "new tooling for a
> vehicle".[/color]

Yes, this issue was previously addressed in this thread.
[color=blue][color=green]
>>
>> I don't think _anyone_ has that luxury.[/color]
>
> Go to Detriot and talk with automotive based machine shops, forgers, and
> gear companies.[/color]

Or perhaps I should go to work an discuss?
[color=blue]
> I have and they have all told me the same thing. It's
> similiar to Wal Mart, when you buy the quantity they do you can control
> the
> price.[/color]

If anyone had complete control over the price they pay for a product, why
would they pay even a single cent? You're over-simplifying.


[color=blue]
>
> Mark A answered this question, because thousands of kids do it everyday at
> Best Buy.[/color]

These are completely unrealated circumstances. People do a lot of things to
their car that OEM's don't.
[color=blue]
>
> I'm not saying every component is easy to change and free of safety
> considerations, I'm only talking about STEREOS.[/color]

Stereos are not exempt from the consideration which all parts of a car go
under during design.

Again, I'm not defending Toyota. You're right that there really isn't too
much to a stereo system. But, there's more than many here seem to
appriciate...

Regards,

Robin

"Mark A" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:apSdnd-agv8XxITfRVn-uQ@comcast.com...[color=blue][color=green]
>>[/color]
> Toyota neither designs nor builds the receivers.[/color]

It's not about building them. OEMs don't make a lot of what goes in their
cars. Certain OEM's don't build any part of certain models of their line.

Anyway, you cannot just swap a component into a car you're building. They
might do it on TV, but when you have to make a couple million (and waranty
them), there's slightly more consideration than a dollar compairson.

Regards,

Robin

> "Mark A" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in message[color=blue]
> news:apSdnd-agv8XxITfRVn-uQ@comcast.com...[color=green][color=darkred]
> >>[/color]
> > Toyota neither designs nor builds the receivers.[/color]
>
> It's not about building them. OEMs don't make a lot of what goes in their
> cars. Certain OEM's don't build any part of certain models of their line.
>
> Anyway, you cannot just swap a component into a car you're building. They
> might do it on TV, but when you have to make a couple million (and waranty
> them), there's slightly more consideration than a dollar compairson.
>
> Regards,
>
> Robin
>[/color]
You may (or may not) know something about auto manufacturing, but you don't
know beans about car stereo equipment. To compare parts that Toyota designs
and specs out for vendors to make for them with the generic stereo's they
put in their vehicles is ridiculous.

The Toyota stereos may have proprietary cabling (to encourage people to buy
Toyota stereo upgrades like CD changers) but the technology is off the shelf
stuff, that as others have noted, is a little behind the technology curve.
It might cost Toyota more to purchase a receiver with a MP3, but Toyota does
not have to do any design, testing, R&D, etc, anymore than they have to that
if they offer FM frequency on their radios (believe it or not, at one time
car radios did not have FM).

On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 22:27:12 -0800, Mark A wrote:
[color=blue][color=green]
>> "Mark A" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>> news:apSdnd-agv8XxITfRVn-uQ@comcast.com...[color=darkred]
>> >>
>> > Toyota neither designs nor builds the receivers.[/color]
>>
>> It's not about building them. OEMs don't make a lot of what goes in
>> their cars. Certain OEM's don't build any part of certain models of
>> their line.
>>
>> Anyway, you cannot just swap a component into a car you're building.
>> They might do it on TV, but when you have to make a couple million (and
>> waranty them), there's slightly more consideration than a dollar
>> compairson.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Robin
>>[/color]
> You may (or may not) know something about auto manufacturing, but you
> don't know beans about car stereo equipment. To compare parts that
> Toyota designs and specs out for vendors to make for them with the
> generic stereo's they put in their vehicles is ridiculous.
>
> The Toyota stereos may have proprietary cabling (to encourage people to
> buy Toyota stereo upgrades like CD changers) but the technology is off
> the shelf stuff, that as others have noted, is a little behind the
> technology curve. It might cost Toyota more to purchase a receiver with
> a MP3,[/color]
[color=blue]
> but Toyota does not have to do any design, testing, R&D, etc,
> anymore than they have to that if they offer FM frequency on their
> radios (believe it or not, at one time car radios did not have FM).[/color]

No design, testing or R&D? Since when? Name one car on the road where
you can walk into any Best Buy and find the exact same model. Most cars
have radios that are custom made to have the same look and style as the
rest of the car. Most are also very simple with only the basic controls
for ease of use. So Toyota at least has custom radios built that have the
look they want.

Looking at the wiring diagram for my '93 truck. The two rear speakers
have an amp built in and the radio has some custom wires to run it. So, I
don't think the guts inside the radio are off the shelf parts. (As one
unit. I am sure the tape deck gears and stuff was used other models as
well.)

So Toyota designed it, and to keep the quality up, you can bet they are
going to test it. R&D is not going to be much as it is a radio that has
been done years ago. It all cost $$$.

"Eddie" <no@spamatall.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.02.22.09.57.28.359965.5698@spamatall.com...[color=blue]
> On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 22:27:12 -0800, Mark A wrote:
>[color=green][color=darkred]
> >> "Mark A" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> >> news:apSdnd-agv8XxITfRVn-uQ@comcast.com...
> >> >>
> >> > Toyota neither designs nor builds the receivers.
> >>
> >> It's not about building them. OEMs don't make a lot of what goes in
> >> their cars. Certain OEM's don't build any part of certain models of
> >> their line.
> >>
> >> Anyway, you cannot just swap a component into a car you're building.
> >> They might do it on TV, but when you have to make a couple million (and
> >> waranty them), there's slightly more consideration than a dollar
> >> compairson.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Robin
> >>[/color]
> > You may (or may not) know something about auto manufacturing, but you
> > don't know beans about car stereo equipment. To compare parts that
> > Toyota designs and specs out for vendors to make for them with the
> > generic stereo's they put in their vehicles is ridiculous.
> >
> > The Toyota stereos may have proprietary cabling (to encourage people to
> > buy Toyota stereo upgrades like CD changers) but the technology is off
> > the shelf stuff, that as others have noted, is a little behind the
> > technology curve. It might cost Toyota more to purchase a receiver with
> > a MP3,[/color]
>[color=green]
> > but Toyota does not have to do any design, testing, R&D, etc,
> > anymore than they have to that if they offer FM frequency on their
> > radios (believe it or not, at one time car radios did not have FM).[/color]
>
> No design, testing or R&D? Since when? Name one car on the road where
> you can walk into any Best Buy and find the exact same model. Most cars
> have radios that are custom made to have the same look and style as the
> rest of the car. Most are also very simple with only the basic controls
> for ease of use. So Toyota at least has custom radios built that have the
> look they want.
>
> Looking at the wiring diagram for my '93 truck. The two rear speakers
> have an amp built in and the radio has some custom wires to run it. So, I
> don't think the guts inside the radio are off the shelf parts. (As one
> unit. I am sure the tape deck gears and stuff was used other models as
> well.)
>
> So Toyota designed it, and to keep the quality up, you can bet they are
> going to test it. R&D is not going to be much as it is a radio that has
> been done years ago. It all cost $$$.[/color]

I agree with Mark A that changing a stereo is not a big deal. I would think
that they could easily select a manufacturer that has been doing MP3 for
several years and has established a reliable and mature product. As far as
making the front panel match the car, that can be easily changed without
affecting the real design of the stereo, the electronic components.

My company has done business with several automotive based companies, mainly
machine shops and forging houses. They all uniformly wanted to reduce their
dependancy on auto companies who unmercifully beat them up on prices and
even mandate future automatic price decreases (I not sure if Toyota was one
of the companies they did business with, I heard Ford, GM and Chrysler
mentioned).
The point is, at least in mechanical parts, the auto makers dictate what
they want, when they want it and the price they want it at. I think it would
be no different for electronic component suppliers, maybe worse since cost
of electronic equipment drops rapidly with quantity increases. I can easily
imagine that Toyota could just impose an MP3 capability on their suppliers
without a cost increase.