Is 20% ethanol in gas a good idea?

"Just Me" <ImpartialObserver@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:25646-421E55A4-229@storefull-3175.bay.webtv.net...[color=blue]
> Some officials in Minnesota are proposing that all gasoline be mandated
> to contain 20% ethanol. Can all engines safely run on a 20% ethanol
> blend ... or might this be hard on the engine or fuel system?[/color]

Toyota recommends no more than 10% ethanol in the fuel. The other auto
makers are probably in the same ballpark as far as maximum percentage of
ethanol and I doubt if any maker is going to spend money repairing systems
damaged by too much ethanol or modifying the systems to accomodate the
additional ethanol.

A drawback to ethanol is that it does not lubricate like gasoline does and
tends to be more corrosive than gas. I've seen cars where the gas had a
black color that clogged fuel filters and fuel injectors. The speculation
in our office was that the black color was coming from dissolving flexible
fuel lines, although I never heard a definitive answer or analysis of the
fuel.

Ethanol[color=blue]
> burns cleaner, but has less energy than gasoline. Critics say ethanol
> requires subsidies, and a high amount of energy to produce. I remember
> one critic claim that it takes more energy to produce ethanol than can
> be derived from it in an auto engine: energy (gas, electric, etc.) to
> plant, fertilize & harvest the corn, process it into alcohol, and
> transport it. There's enough politics in this ethanol push to make me
> seriously question it. Does anybody have any data or technical info on
> inceasing ethanol in gas? Does any other state have ethanol blends
> higher than 10%? And, what luck has there been with the E-85 (85%
> ethanol) blend that some vehicles can use? JM[/color]

I don't know much about the politics of ethanol and what it takes to produce
it, other than Midwestern farmers and politicians seem to favor laws and
regulations that require more ethanol use.
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply

"Ray O" <rokigawa@tristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote in
news:e1b49$421e6160$44a4a10d$25978@msgid.meganewsservers.com:

[color=blue]
> I don't know much about the politics of ethanol and what it takes to
> produce it, other than Midwestern farmers and politicians seem to
> favor laws and regulations that require more ethanol use.[/color]



Ethanol means giant subsidies to grain farmers, so they love the stuff.
Especially since those subsidies are in addition to all the other price
supports, grants, cheap loans and other graft they get.

Rural politicians love it because they can use it to shovel out enormous
amounts of pork in their districts (and not the other guy's).

Environuts love it because it just seems so warm and fuzzy and farmy and
renewable. And everybody loves that Olde Tyme Family Farm!

In real life, ethanol is dramatically more expensive than petroleum, uses
up tens of thousands of acres of land, requires millions of gallons of
ammonia fertilizer, and ONLY works if heavy taxpayer subsidization is
involved. Much like recycling, actually.

Also most owner's manuals I've seen state that UP TO 10% ethanol is
acceptable.


--
TeGGeR®

On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:31:00 -0600, Just Me wrote:
[color=blue]
> Some officials in Minnesota are proposing that all gasoline be mandated
> to contain 20% ethanol. Can all engines safely run on a 20% ethanol
> blend ... or might this be hard on the engine or fuel system? Ethanol
> burns cleaner, but has less energy than gasoline.[/color]

Tell this to the guys that run INDY and CART cars!!! ;)
[color=blue]
> Critics say ethanol
> requires subsidies, and a high amount of energy to produce. I remember
> one critic claim that it takes more energy to produce ethanol than can
> be derived from it in an auto engine: energy (gas, electric, etc.) to
> plant, fertilize & harvest the corn, process it into alcohol, and
> transport it. There's enough politics in this ethanol push to make me
> seriously question it. Does anybody have any data or technical info on
> inceasing ethanol in gas? Does any other state have ethanol blends
> higher than 10%? And, what luck has there been with the E-85 (85%
> ethanol) blend that some vehicles can use? JM[/color]

On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:31:00 -0600, [email]ImpartialObserver@webtv.net[/email] (Just
Me) wrote:
[color=blue]
>Some officials in Minnesota are proposing that all gasoline be mandated
>to contain 20% ethanol. Can all engines safely run on a 20% ethanol[/color]

I think in my car manual it says my saturn will run on 10% Someone
told me Jimmy Carter mandated all cars sold in the US must be able to
run on a gasoline/ethanol blend. Happened as a result to the oil
embargos.
[color=blue]
>blend ... or might this be hard on the engine or fuel system? Ethanol
>burns cleaner, but has less energy than gasoline. Critics say ethanol[/color]

I think it burns cleaner cause it's naturally oxidized.
[color=blue]
>requires subsidies, and a high amount of energy to produce. I remember[/color]

Farmers are subsided to NOT grow anything, wouldn't it be better if
they were subsided to actuallly grow something that would help the
economy?
[color=blue]
>one critic claim that it takes more energy to produce ethanol than can
>be derived from it in an auto engine: energy (gas, electric, etc.) to
>plant, fertilize & harvest the corn, process it into alcohol, and
>transport it. There's enough politics in this ethanol push to make me
>seriously question it. Does anybody have any data or technical info on
>inceasing ethanol in gas? Does any other state have ethanol blends
>higher than 10%? And, what luck has there been with the E-85 (85%
>ethanol) blend that some vehicles can use? JM[/color]


Now I stated what "I've Heard", but I am too curious is 20% is ok,
cause if it is, then maybe 10% will become the norm outside of
Minesota.

later,

tom @ [url]www.ChopURL.com[/url]

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 05:28:08 -0500, Steve wrote:
[color=blue]
> Alcohol is used is INDY cars and drag racers because is burns cool and
> clean; they're also "money-is-no-object" when it comes to the cost of the
> fuel or the high-precision engines needed to make use of these properties.
>
> "hachiroku" <levin@ae86.gts> wrote in message
> news:sZwTd.42893$t46.39970@trndny04...[color=green]
>> On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:31:00 -0600, Just Me wrote:
>>[color=darkred]
>> > Some officials in Minnesota are proposing that all gasoline be mandated
>> > to contain 20% ethanol. Can all engines safely run on a 20% ethanol
>> > blend ... or might this be hard on the engine or fuel system? Ethanol
>> > burns cleaner, but has less energy than gasoline.[/color]
>>[/color][/color]

(Kicks at ground..) Shucks, yeah, I know, but then again they also squeak
out 700HP from 'corn squeezin's'!

[color=blue][color=green]
>> Tell this to the guys that run INDY and CART cars!!! ;)
>>[color=darkred]
>> > Critics say ethanol
>> > requires subsidies, and a high amount of energy to produce. I remember
>> > one critic claim that it takes more energy to produce ethanol than can
>> > be derived from it in an auto engine: energy (gas, electric, etc.) to
>> > plant, fertilize & harvest the corn, process it into alcohol, and
>> > transport it. There's enough politics in this ethanol push to make me
>> > seriously question it. Does anybody have any data or technical info on
>> > inceasing ethanol in gas? Does any other state have ethanol blends
>> > higher than 10%? And, what luck has there been with the E-85 (85%
>> > ethanol) blend that some vehicles can use? JM[/color]
>>[/color][/color]

I don't know much about alcohol used in Indy cars, but I do know that
there are different kinds of alcohol. Methyl (wood) alcohol is not
widely used. It is also poisonous when ingested. Isopropyl (rubbing)
alcohon is used in some de-icer additives. Ethyl (grain) alcohol,
generally made from corn, is what's added to gas in Minnesota. It's the
same type alcohol in beer & liquor. It does NOT produce as much energy
as gasoline, based on everything I've read.

When ethanol alcohol was first widely used as a gas additive, it DID
create some problems in fuel systems. Ethanol is a strong solvent, and
dissolves some materials that gasoline will not (and vice-versa).

I, too, am concerned about politicians screwing things up by mandating
higher ethanol content withOUT understanding the consequences. If it
screws up your engine or fuel system, who pays?! AA

A A wrote:[color=blue]
> I don't know much about alcohol used in Indy cars, but I do know that
> there are different kinds of alcohol. Methyl (wood) alcohol is not
> widely used. It is also poisonous when ingested. Isopropyl (rubbing)
> alcohon is used in some de-icer additives. Ethyl (grain) alcohol,
> generally made from corn, is what's added to gas in Minnesota. It's
> the same type alcohol in beer & liquor. It does NOT produce as much
> energy as gasoline, based on everything I've read.
>
> When ethanol alcohol was first widely used as a gas additive, it DID
> create some problems in fuel systems. Ethanol is a strong solvent,
> and dissolves some materials that gasoline will not (and vice-versa).
>
> I, too, am concerned about politicians screwing things up by mandating
> higher ethanol content withOUT understanding the consequences. If it
> screws up your engine or fuel system, who pays?! AA[/color]


Ethanol is the alcohol consumed in alcoholic beverages. However, once
denatured, ethanol becomes toxic and can cause blindness or death if
consumed.

[url]http://www.pharmco-prod.com/index.html[/url]
9. What is the difference between alcohol and ethanol?
The term "Alcohol" can literally mean Pure Ethanol, Denatured Ethanol
(Alcohol) as well as other alcohols which are not Ethanol (Ethyl Alcohol).
The term "Alcohol" can mean Pure Alcohol which is undenatured Ethanol. This
means that it is suitable for consumption. The term "Alcohol" can refer to
pure alcohol at any level of concentration (proof). Therefore, pure alcohol
is a correct term for 100% Ethanol (200 proof), 95% Ethanol (190 proof) and
any concentration of Ethanol (Vodka is 40% Ethanol). The term "Alcohol" can
mean Denatured alcohol. Denatured alcohol is Ethanol which has been made
unsuitable for consumption by addition of toxic solvents to the pure
alcohol. The term "Alcohol" can therefore refer to any denatured ethanol
product, regardless of the proof of Ethanol and the concentration of Ethanol
in the denatured product (i.e., SDA-39C is referred to as Specially
denatured "Alcohol", even though it contains 1% Diethyl Phthalate as a
denaturant and even though the Ethanol content of this mixture can be 190
proof or 200 proof.) There are several hundred standard formulas of
denatured alcohol (Ethanol). All of them can be called "Alcohol". The term
"Alcohol" can also refer to other solvents which are non Ethanol based but
which are chemically classified as Alcohol's. For instance, Isopropyl
Alcohol, Methyl Alcohol, Butyl Alcohol, & Propyl Alcohol are all "alcohol"
but none are ethanol (Ethyl Alcohol). Since Pharmco manufactures a wide
range of Alcohol products, care must be taken when using the term alcohol,
to communicate what product or class of products is being requested.

11. What is the difference between natural and synthetic?
All Ethanol Products can be made with naturally derived Ethanol (commonly
referred to as "Grain" alcohol), or synthetically produced Ethanol. Natural
alcohol is commonly referred to as Grain Alcohol because almost all
commercial alcohol produced in North America is derived from grain (corn).
Not all naturally derived Ethanol however, comes from grain (corn). Ethanol
can be naturally produced (fermented) from any carbohydrate source. Some of
the other common sources are wheat, cane, beet and other fruits such as
grape and apple. While grain and synthetic alcohol is technically the same
(the molecule is identical), there are differences in the limited amount of
contaminants in the product The most predominant being sec-Butanol, Acetone
and Methanol. An experienced chemist with a High Resolution Gas
Chromatograph can detect the difference in grain and synthetic by looking at
these contaminants in the parts-per-million (ppm) range. Pharmco Products
manufactures both grain and synthetic grades of all its alcohol products. If
these minute differences are critical to your application, then the type of
alcohol must be specifically requested at the time of ordering.

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 13:55:58 -0600, A A wrote:
[color=blue]
> I don't know much about alcohol used in Indy cars, but I do know that
> there are different kinds of alcohol. Methyl (wood) alcohol is not
> widely used. It is also poisonous when ingested. Isopropyl (rubbing)
> alcohon is used in some de-icer additives. Ethyl (grain) alcohol,
> generally made from corn, is what's added to gas in Minnesota. It's the
> same type alcohol in beer & liquor. It does NOT produce as much energy
> as gasoline, based on everything I've read.
>
> When ethanol alcohol was first widely used as a gas additive, it DID
> create some problems in fuel systems. Ethanol is a strong solvent, and
> dissolves some materials that gasoline will not (and vice-versa).
>
> I, too, am concerned about politicians screwing things up by mandating
> higher ethanol content withOUT understanding the consequences. If it
> screws up your engine or fuel system, who pays?! AA[/color]

Oh, BTW, *I* run pretty well on Ethyl myself! ;)

"hachiroku" <levin@ae86.gts> wrote in message
news:ZLcUd.33581$ya6.16871@trndny01...[color=blue]
> On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 13:55:58 -0600, A A wrote:
>[color=green]
>> I don't know much about alcohol used in Indy cars, but I do know that
>> there are different kinds of alcohol. Methyl (wood) alcohol is not
>> widely used. It is also poisonous when ingested. Isopropyl (rubbing)
>> alcohon is used in some de-icer additives. Ethyl (grain) alcohol,
>> generally made from corn, is what's added to gas in Minnesota. It's the
>> same type alcohol in beer & liquor. It does NOT produce as much energy
>> as gasoline, based on everything I've read.
>>
>> When ethanol alcohol was first widely used as a gas additive, it DID
>> create some problems in fuel systems. Ethanol is a strong solvent, and
>> dissolves some materials that gasoline will not (and vice-versa).
>>
>> I, too, am concerned about politicians screwing things up by mandating
>> higher ethanol content withOUT understanding the consequences. If it
>> screws up your engine or fuel system, who pays?! AA[/color]
>
> Oh, BTW, *I* run pretty well on Ethyl myself! ;)
>[/color]

So you've been pumping Ethyl? Enquiring minds wanted to know.

Charles of Kankakee

Some officials in Minnesota are proposing that all gasoline be mandated
to contain 20% ethanol. Can all engines safely run on a 20% ethanol
blend ... or might this be hard on the engine or fuel system? Ethanol
burns cleaner, but has less energy than gasoline. Critics say ethanol
requires subsidies, and a high amount of energy to produce. I remember
one critic claim that it takes more energy to produce ethanol than can
be derived from it in an auto engine: energy (gas, electric, etc.) to
plant, fertilize & harvest the corn, process it into alcohol, and
transport it. There's enough politics in this ethanol push to make me
seriously question it. Does anybody have any data or technical info on
inceasing ethanol in gas? Does any other state have ethanol blends
higher than 10%? And, what luck has there been with the E-85 (85%
ethanol) blend that some vehicles can use? JM

"Just Me" <ImpartialObserver@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:25646-421E55A4-229@storefull-3175.bay.webtv.net...[color=blue]
> Some officials in Minnesota are proposing that all gasoline be mandated
> to contain 20% ethanol. Can all engines safely run on a 20% ethanol
> blend ... or might this be hard on the engine or fuel system?[/color]

Toyota recommends no more than 10% ethanol in the fuel. The other auto
makers are probably in the same ballpark as far as maximum percentage of
ethanol and I doubt if any maker is going to spend money repairing systems
damaged by too much ethanol or modifying the systems to accomodate the
additional ethanol.

A drawback to ethanol is that it does not lubricate like gasoline does and
tends to be more corrosive than gas. I've seen cars where the gas had a
black color that clogged fuel filters and fuel injectors. The speculation
in our office was that the black color was coming from dissolving flexible
fuel lines, although I never heard a definitive answer or analysis of the
fuel.

Ethanol[color=blue]
> burns cleaner, but has less energy than gasoline. Critics say ethanol
> requires subsidies, and a high amount of energy to produce. I remember
> one critic claim that it takes more energy to produce ethanol than can
> be derived from it in an auto engine: energy (gas, electric, etc.) to
> plant, fertilize & harvest the corn, process it into alcohol, and
> transport it. There's enough politics in this ethanol push to make me
> seriously question it. Does anybody have any data or technical info on
> inceasing ethanol in gas? Does any other state have ethanol blends
> higher than 10%? And, what luck has there been with the E-85 (85%
> ethanol) blend that some vehicles can use? JM[/color]

I don't know much about the politics of ethanol and what it takes to produce
it, other than Midwestern farmers and politicians seem to favor laws and
regulations that require more ethanol use.
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply

"Ray O" <rokigawa@tristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote in
news:e1b49$421e6160$44a4a10d$25978@msgid.meganewsservers.com:

[color=blue]
> I don't know much about the politics of ethanol and what it takes to
> produce it, other than Midwestern farmers and politicians seem to
> favor laws and regulations that require more ethanol use.[/color]



Ethanol means giant subsidies to grain farmers, so they love the stuff.
Especially since those subsidies are in addition to all the other price
supports, grants, cheap loans and other graft they get.

Rural politicians love it because they can use it to shovel out enormous
amounts of pork in their districts (and not the other guy's).

Environuts love it because it just seems so warm and fuzzy and farmy and
renewable. And everybody loves that Olde Tyme Family Farm!

In real life, ethanol is dramatically more expensive than petroleum, uses
up tens of thousands of acres of land, requires millions of gallons of
ammonia fertilizer, and ONLY works if heavy taxpayer subsidization is
involved. Much like recycling, actually.

Also most owner's manuals I've seen state that UP TO 10% ethanol is
acceptable.


--
TeGGeR®

On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:31:00 -0600, Just Me wrote:
[color=blue]
> Some officials in Minnesota are proposing that all gasoline be mandated
> to contain 20% ethanol. Can all engines safely run on a 20% ethanol
> blend ... or might this be hard on the engine or fuel system? Ethanol
> burns cleaner, but has less energy than gasoline.[/color]

Tell this to the guys that run INDY and CART cars!!! ;)
[color=blue]
> Critics say ethanol
> requires subsidies, and a high amount of energy to produce. I remember
> one critic claim that it takes more energy to produce ethanol than can
> be derived from it in an auto engine: energy (gas, electric, etc.) to
> plant, fertilize & harvest the corn, process it into alcohol, and
> transport it. There's enough politics in this ethanol push to make me
> seriously question it. Does anybody have any data or technical info on
> inceasing ethanol in gas? Does any other state have ethanol blends
> higher than 10%? And, what luck has there been with the E-85 (85%
> ethanol) blend that some vehicles can use? JM[/color]

Alcohol is used is INDY cars and drag racers because is burns cool and
clean; they're also "money-is-no-object" when it comes to the cost of the
fuel or the high-precision engines needed to make use of these properties.

"hachiroku" <levin@ae86.gts> wrote in message
news:sZwTd.42893$t46.39970@trndny04...[color=blue]
> On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:31:00 -0600, Just Me wrote:
>[color=green]
> > Some officials in Minnesota are proposing that all gasoline be mandated
> > to contain 20% ethanol. Can all engines safely run on a 20% ethanol
> > blend ... or might this be hard on the engine or fuel system? Ethanol
> > burns cleaner, but has less energy than gasoline.[/color]
>
> Tell this to the guys that run INDY and CART cars!!! ;)
>[color=green]
> > Critics say ethanol
> > requires subsidies, and a high amount of energy to produce. I remember
> > one critic claim that it takes more energy to produce ethanol than can
> > be derived from it in an auto engine: energy (gas, electric, etc.) to
> > plant, fertilize & harvest the corn, process it into alcohol, and
> > transport it. There's enough politics in this ethanol push to make me
> > seriously question it. Does anybody have any data or technical info on
> > inceasing ethanol in gas? Does any other state have ethanol blends
> > higher than 10%? And, what luck has there been with the E-85 (85%
> > ethanol) blend that some vehicles can use? JM[/color]
>[/color]

On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:31:00 -0600, [email]ImpartialObserver@webtv.net[/email] (Just
Me) wrote:
[color=blue]
>Some officials in Minnesota are proposing that all gasoline be mandated
>to contain 20% ethanol. Can all engines safely run on a 20% ethanol[/color]

I think in my car manual it says my saturn will run on 10% Someone
told me Jimmy Carter mandated all cars sold in the US must be able to
run on a gasoline/ethanol blend. Happened as a result to the oil
embargos.
[color=blue]
>blend ... or might this be hard on the engine or fuel system? Ethanol
>burns cleaner, but has less energy than gasoline. Critics say ethanol[/color]

I think it burns cleaner cause it's naturally oxidized.
[color=blue]
>requires subsidies, and a high amount of energy to produce. I remember[/color]

Farmers are subsided to NOT grow anything, wouldn't it be better if
they were subsided to actuallly grow something that would help the
economy?
[color=blue]
>one critic claim that it takes more energy to produce ethanol than can
>be derived from it in an auto engine: energy (gas, electric, etc.) to
>plant, fertilize & harvest the corn, process it into alcohol, and
>transport it. There's enough politics in this ethanol push to make me
>seriously question it. Does anybody have any data or technical info on
>inceasing ethanol in gas? Does any other state have ethanol blends
>higher than 10%? And, what luck has there been with the E-85 (85%
>ethanol) blend that some vehicles can use? JM[/color]


Now I stated what "I've Heard", but I am too curious is 20% is ok,
cause if it is, then maybe 10% will become the norm outside of
Minesota.

later,

tom @ [url]www.ChopURL.com[/url]