Knock at hot startup

"Coyoteboy" <coyoteboyuk@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1109705944.029551.152420@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...[color=blue]
> My 3sGTE, though now due for it next 3k oil change I admit, knocks like
> its mains are shot but only on hot startup - i.e. after a motorway run,
> or when shes been up to temp for 30mins plus. She naturally runs very
> hot with the turbo, so im guessing is hard on the oil (hence i use
> 10-40 fully synth).
>
> When left for days on end, weeks even, a cold startup will be more or
> less silent, after a couple of minutes as the idling starts to settle
> nearer 800 she gets a slight load independant knock but only as much as
> you'd expect after 100K miles, and that soon goes when she warms a
> little. But the hot one is a proper clackety knock. I always make sure
> to leave the car 20 secs before driving away, to limit any damage.
> I'm gonna fit a pressure gauge but the oil pressure light never fails
> to go out right away.
>
> So im thinking through the likely causes and all i can see is that the
> oil is getting too thin when it gets hot. If I use it to the point
> where it would knock if restarted hot, but leave it to go cold before
> restarting its fine again.
>
> Who agrees? Engine is coming out later this month for a clutch change,
> i think I'll check other things out - bearing condition etc.
>
> J
>[/color]
The oil light does not com on until the oil pressure is pretty low so a
better indicator is to install an oil pressure gauge to see what is going
on. Also, have you heard the noise with the hood open to identify whether
it is coming from the top or bottom of the engine?

10W-40 should not be thinning out when hot - have you tried a different
brand of oil to see if the problem goes away?

Without actually hearing the sound and its source, it is hard to identify
but other potential causes are worn turbo bearing, valve train noise, and
piston slap.
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply

Ray O wrote:[color=blue]
> The oil light does not com on until the oil pressure is pretty low so
> a better indicator is to install an oil pressure gauge to see what is
> going on. Also, have you heard the noise with the hood open to
> identify whether it is coming from the top or bottom of the engine?
>
> 10W-40 should not be thinning out when hot - have you tried a
> different brand of oil to see if the problem goes away?
>
> Without actually hearing the sound and its source, it is hard to
> identify but other potential causes are worn turbo bearing, valve
> train noise, and piston slap.[/color]

RoyO: You should know better so a brain fart is in evidence because ...
ALL OIL THINS out as it is heated. No exceptions.
--

- Philip

:) i think he meant appreciably. Its the specified oil for the engine,
and i have used a few brands, always seems to start doing it more after
about 2500/3000 miles, the specified oil change period. It just amazes
me that it might actually properly eat the oil in that time.
It aint turbo noise, under the hood it sounds somewhere in the block
but I cant work out where, could be piston slap but its tone is much
more knocky than the piston slap ive heard before. If it is, as i think
it is from ear, the same as the normal slight knock i get when
luke-warm, its load independant - ive tried stressing it on the
handbrake and no change in note, and it vanishes as the revs rise about
2500ish. Valvetrain possible or little ends. Never checked the shims on
the hydraulic buckets, might be a place to start.

"Philip" <1chip-state1@earthlink.n0t> wrote in message
news:sK7Vd.3426$wy3.480@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...[color=blue]
> Ray O wrote:[color=green]
>> The oil light does not com on until the oil pressure is pretty low so
>> a better indicator is to install an oil pressure gauge to see what is
>> going on. Also, have you heard the noise with the hood open to
>> identify whether it is coming from the top or bottom of the engine?
>>
>> 10W-40 should not be thinning out when hot - have you tried a
>> different brand of oil to see if the problem goes away?
>>
>> Without actually hearing the sound and its source, it is hard to
>> identify but other potential causes are worn turbo bearing, valve
>> train noise, and piston slap.[/color]
>
> RoyO: You should know better so a brain fart is in evidence because ...
> ALL OIL THINS out as it is heated. No exceptions.
> --
>
> - Philip[/color]
Philip, yes, brain fart as charged. My hands didn't type what my mind was
thinking, which was that the oil should not be thinning out enough to cause
the noise. I think that there is another underlying cause other than the
oil.
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply

In article <1109779352.537086.90590@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
[email]coyoteboyuk@hotmail.com[/email] says...[color=blue]
> :) i think he meant appreciably. Its the specified oil for the engine,
> and i have used a few brands, always seems to start doing it more after
> about 2500/3000 miles, the specified oil change period. It just amazes
> me that it might actually properly eat the oil in that time.
>
>[/color]
I have i have oil use from arround 1300 miles into each change period on
3S-GTE.
It uses about 1-1.5 litres extra between changes, but no noticable
leaks, and no really oily smoke, and only a little coming through the
PCV.

I found it got better when I switched to 10w60 Millers full synthetic,
and what I thought was a little knock on switching off has gone away
too.

I'm in the middle of fitting a pressure and temp gauge too, so I will be
able to see how things are going.

But then mine has 140k+ miles, still starts on the button, and makes 7-
8PSI boost when warm, just like it should, so I ain't complaining.
--
"Sorry Sir, the meatballs are Orf"
The poster formerly known as Skodapilot.
[url]http://www.bouncing-czechs.com[/url]

Mine never uses a drop of oil, but interesting to see that you lose
some after a period. Seems a more quality oil must last longer though
as you point out.

My pressure gauge is sitting in my room waiting to be fitted, the
A-pillar pod i had for it looks aweful IMO, so im trying to mod the
dash round the stereo :-o !

I'm running a CT20b, 1 bar boost, steely HG, late 185 spec head,
Mongoose, decat. Other than this, and my blown clutch, all is peachy
with her - touch wood. They are tough little beasts.

In article <1109785569.960328.301070@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
[email]coyoteboyuk@hotmail.com[/email] says...[color=blue]
> Mine never uses a drop of oil, but interesting to see that you lose
> some after a period. Seems a more quality oil must last longer though
> as you point out.[/color]

I was speaking to Mysh and bubbles from the GT4OC club couple of weeks
ago at ther northwest Jap meet.
Mysh's ST185 does exactley the same as mine. As I only do about 200
miles a week, I check it weekly. Week 1 oil level fine and full, week 2
oil level fine and full. halfway between week 2 and week 3, orange add
oil light flickers on. Only stays only about 2 mins. Red Oil pressure
light doesn't come on at all. Let it cool when I get home, check oil,
and it is at 1/2 way between min and max on the stick. Just seems to
dump between 1/4 and 1/3rd litre in a hit. No sign of were it was going,
and usually happens when steady driving, not when boosting hard, or
throwing it through corners, just steady cruising on very light
throttle.
[color=blue]
> My pressure gauge is sitting in my room waiting to be fitted, the
> A-pillar pod i had for it looks aweful IMO, so im trying to mod the
> dash round the stereo :-o ![/color]

I fitted this [url]http://www.bouncing-czechs.com/imagery/ST185/gaugepod1.JPG[/url]

3 gauge pillar pod with [url]http://www.autodynamic.com/search_results.asp?[/url]
iLevel=1
&txtsearchParamCat=ALL&txtsearchParamMan=ALL&txtsearchParamVen=ALL&txtse
archParamType=ALL&txtFromSearch=fromSearch&txtsearchParamTxt=GR-600
+Gauge

oil temp/pressure/boost fitted. they are wired for power, but temp and
pressure don't have their sensors in yet. Boost is working now.
Ended up with the silver faces, but would have prefered the black.
[color=blue]
> I'm running a CT20b, 1 bar boost, steely HG, late 185 spec head,
> Mongoose, decat. Other than this, and my blown clutch, all is peachy
> with her - touch wood. They are tough little beasts.[/color]

Nowt much on mine. Just a Simota oiled cotton cone filter and a SARD
R2D2 BOV, and the gauges.

But, it's going in for some work next week.
As long as the parts arrive ok, it will be pricey for the labour, but
worth it.
I'm waiting on
Exhaust Depot 2.5" decat
Whiteline bush kit and ARB (I'm not expecting them to arrive in time)
Akebono ceramic pads and KYB rear strut top mounts and shock boots.
(those I really need by tomorrow as they have been ordered since 10th
Feb from Olyonline.com)
I have new KYB front inserts, new KYB rear struts, TRD topmounts, and
Eibach springs all round, one of Mario's (from the GT4OC) rear diff
cushion/poly bush kits, and I want the exhaust manifold leak sorting.

Booked in for monday, I need the rear diff cushion and the manifold leak
looking at for certain, if the rear top mounts arrive all the better,
can get the new suspension sorted, if the bush kit and ARB arrive,
everything will be renewed, which is a good thing.

Then thinking simple Dawes Device/MBC and maybe later and Greddy E-
Manage.

--
"Sorry Sir, the meatballs are Orf"
The poster formerly known as Skodapilot.
[url]http://www.bouncing-czechs.com[/url]

Strange oil usage i must say - got me stumped on that one!

Not seen Mysh's 185, only his 205 which is a nice beast. I might post
this over on the OC, see if anyone else has similar issues but I
couldnt find any in a search.
Looks like you have some nice changes planned then :) How do you find
the diff mount? I'm guessing its noisy with an alu mount?


J

In article <1109855280.742920.309990@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
[email]coyoteboyuk@hotmail.com[/email] says...[color=blue]
> Strange oil usage i must say - got me stumped on that one!
>
> Not seen Mysh's 185, only his 205 which is a nice beast. I might post
> this over on the OC, see if anyone else has similar issues but I
> couldnt find any in a search.
> Looks like you have some nice changes planned then :) How do you find
> the diff mount? I'm guessing its noisy with an alu mount?
>
>
> J
>
>[/color]
I'll find out next week. That is one of the things going on. Had the car
since august, noticed the clunking on gearshifts about 10 mins after I
bought it (Doh!).

Been driving it like that, but trying to smooth my shifts. Ordered the
mount just after Xmas, had it waiting until I could get some extra time
off.

Before I even dream of adding boost/playing with the tuning, I want it
handle better than new, and brake at least as well as it did off the
factory line.
--
"Sorry Sir, the meatballs are Orf"
The poster formerly known as Skodapilot.
[url]http://www.bouncing-czechs.com[/url]

Coyoteboy wrote:[color=blue]
>
> Mine never uses a drop of oil, but interesting to see that you lose
> some after a period. Seems a more quality oil must last longer though
> as you point out.[/color]

I would not be to sure about it never using a drop of oil.
All piston engines use some oil, if only the tiny amount
left on the cylinder walls by the scrapper rings. As small
an amount as this may be, it adds up over time. Even for a
small 4 cylinder engine it is probably close to 1/2 quart in
3000 miles. If your oil level isn't dropping, it is becasue
of blow-by in the form of water or unburned hydrocarbons. I
have actaully had one engine that showed an increase in oil
level with use - well until you worked it really hard. If
you got the oil hot enough, the level would suddenly drop.

For an explanation of oil consumption see:

[url]http://www.pzlqs.com/Tech/Bulletin//QuakerState/General/pdf/g-08.pdf[/url]

[url]http://www.pzlqs.com/Tech/Bulletin//QuakerState/General/pdf/g-11.pdf[/url]

[url]http://www.pzlqs.com/Tech/Bulletin//DomesticMarketing/General/pdf/g01b.pdf[/url]

Ed

"C. E. White" <cewhite3@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:42276649.9D41FFF6@nospam.com...[color=blue]
>[/color]
<snip>

If your oil level isn't dropping, it is becasue[color=blue]
> of blow-by in the form of water or unburned hydrocarbons. I
> have actaully had one engine that showed an increase in oil
> level with use - well until you worked it really hard. If
> you got the oil hot enough, the level would suddenly drop.
>
> For an explanation of oil consumption see:
>
> [url]http://www.pzlqs.com/Tech/Bulletin//QuakerState/General/pdf/g-08.pdf[/url]
>
> [url]http://www.pzlqs.com/Tech/Bulletin//QuakerState/General/pdf/g-11.pdf[/url]
>
> [url]http://www.pzlqs.com/Tech/Bulletin//DomesticMarketing/General/pdf/g01b.pdf[/url]
>
> Ed[/color]

Ed,

How does an engine with enough blow-by in the form of water or unburned
hydrocarbons to raise the level of the oil not burn oil? In other words, in
order to have blow-by, the rings have to be bad. If the rings are bad, why
isn't the engine burning oil?

I think a more likely cause for an engine that has an increasing oil level
is a leaking head gasket or a massively leaking fuel injector.

Was the car you had that was making oil a Honda or Acura?
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply

Never uses a drop mate (no more than a mm on the dipstick), comes out
almost as golden as it went in, after a 3000 mile interval. My fathers
BMW does 12K miles a year and has never moved from the dipstick max
between topups. Of course there must be some usage, but its minute.

J

"Ray O" <rokigawa@tristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote in message
news:23063$422770b9$44a4a10d$25978@msgid.meganewsservers.com...[color=blue]
>
> "C. E. White" <cewhite3@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:42276649.9D41FFF6@nospam.com...[color=green]
>>[/color]
> <snip>
>
> If your oil level isn't dropping, it is becasue[color=green]
>> of blow-by in the form of water or unburned hydrocarbons. I
>> have actaully had one engine that showed an increase in oil
>> level with use - well until you worked it really hard. If
>> you got the oil hot enough, the level would suddenly drop.
>>
>> For an explanation of oil consumption see:
>>
>> [url]http://www.pzlqs.com/Tech/Bulletin//QuakerState/General/pdf/g-08.pdf[/url]
>>
>> [url]http://www.pzlqs.com/Tech/Bulletin//QuakerState/General/pdf/g-11.pdf[/url]
>>
>> [url]http://www.pzlqs.com/Tech/Bulletin//DomesticMarketing/General/pdf/g01b.pdf[/url]
>>
>> Ed[/color]
>
> Ed,
>
> How does an engine with enough blow-by in the form of water or unburned
> hydrocarbons to raise the level of the oil not burn oil? In other words,
> in order to have blow-by, the rings have to be bad. If the rings are bad,
> why isn't the engine burning oil?
>
> I think a more likely cause for an engine that has an increasing oil level
> is a leaking head gasket or a massively leaking fuel injector.
>
> Was the car you had that was making oil a Honda or Acura?
> --
> Ray O
> correct the return address punctuation to reply
>[/color]

This can happen if the compression rings are faulty and the oil control ring
isn't

"Donald Mackenzie" <reaper_nz@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d0ajjv$ire$1@lust.ihug.co.nz...[color=blue]
>
> "Ray O" <rokigawa@tristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote in message
> news:23063$422770b9$44a4a10d$25978@msgid.meganewsservers.com...[color=green]
>>
>> "C. E. White" <cewhite3@nospam.com> wrote in message
>> news:42276649.9D41FFF6@nospam.com...[color=darkred]
>>>[/color]
>> <snip>
>>
>> If your oil level isn't dropping, it is becasue[color=darkred]
>>> of blow-by in the form of water or unburned hydrocarbons. I
>>> have actaully had one engine that showed an increase in oil
>>> level with use - well until you worked it really hard. If
>>> you got the oil hot enough, the level would suddenly drop.
>>>
>>> For an explanation of oil consumption see:
>>>
>>> [url]http://www.pzlqs.com/Tech/Bulletin//QuakerState/General/pdf/g-08.pdf[/url]
>>>
>>> [url]http://www.pzlqs.com/Tech/Bulletin//QuakerState/General/pdf/g-11.pdf[/url]
>>>
>>> [url]http://www.pzlqs.com/Tech/Bulletin//DomesticMarketing/General/pdf/g01b.pdf[/url]
>>>
>>> Ed[/color]
>>
>> Ed,
>>
>> How does an engine with enough blow-by in the form of water or unburned
>> hydrocarbons to raise the level of the oil not burn oil? In other words,
>> in order to have blow-by, the rings have to be bad. If the rings are
>> bad, why isn't the engine burning oil?
>>
>> I think a more likely cause for an engine that has an increasing oil
>> level is a leaking head gasket or a massively leaking fuel injector.
>>
>> Was the car you had that was making oil a Honda or Acura?
>> --
>> Ray O
>> correct the return address punctuation to reply
>>[/color]
>
> This can happen if the compression rings are faulty and the oil control
> ring isn't[/color]
Yes, it is theoretically possible for the compression rings to be bad and
the oil control ring to be good, but in my experience, all three rings are
good or bad and in any event, a head or head gasket problem is a more likely
culprit for mixing water/coolant with oil.
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply

My 3sGTE, though now due for it next 3k oil change I admit, knocks like
its mains are shot but only on hot startup - i.e. after a motorway run,
or when shes been up to temp for 30mins plus. She naturally runs very
hot with the turbo, so im guessing is hard on the oil (hence i use
10-40 fully synth).

When left for days on end, weeks even, a cold startup will be more or
less silent, after a couple of minutes as the idling starts to settle
nearer 800 she gets a slight load independant knock but only as much as
you'd expect after 100K miles, and that soon goes when she warms a
little. But the hot one is a proper clackety knock. I always make sure
to leave the car 20 secs before driving away, to limit any damage.
I'm gonna fit a pressure gauge but the oil pressure light never fails
to go out right away.

So im thinking through the likely causes and all i can see is that the
oil is getting too thin when it gets hot. If I use it to the point
where it would knock if restarted hot, but leave it to go cold before
restarting its fine again.

Who agrees? Engine is coming out later this month for a clutch change,
i think I'll check other things out - bearing condition etc.

J