I flooded my engine

This morning I inadvertantly flooded my Celica GT engine on starting,
and it took me all of two hours before I was finally able to get
away.....

This hasn't happened to me since about 6 months after I bought this
car new in 1997, when I was a little casual and had my foot down on
the throttle pedal as I cranked the starter. It then 'flooded' the
engine, and no matter how long I gunned it, it refused to fire up.
The sparkplugs were obviously too wet.

The Toyota dealer told me to leave it for a while. Then to put my
foot hard down on the throttle pedal & keep it there until the engine
started. This didn't make much sense to me (isn't fuel flow
proportional to throttle pedal position?) but after I had recharged
the battery I did this and the engine did indeed eventually stagger
into life.

With any other car I would have immediately pulled all the plugs and
dried them out. But on this engine the plugs are set so deep into the
engine block that I feared that I might not get a good start on the
thread, and really foul things up.

This car has recently been serviced at 72K miles and also has just has
a it's first new battery. And apart from the regular consumables, I
haven't had to spend a bean on worn out components etc, in my nearly 8
years of ownership.

Today, I eventually did remove all 4 plugs and dried them out and so
got the engine running after a shaky start.

So I'm left wondering - what's the normal cause & best solution to
this flooding?

David



David

[email]david@btelecom.inva[/email]lid (David ) wrote in
news:426d705a.15050632@usenet.plus.net:

<snip>
[color=blue]
>
> The Toyota dealer told me to leave it for a while. Then to put my
> foot hard down on the throttle pedal & keep it there until the engine
> started. This didn't make much sense to me (isn't fuel flow
> proportional to throttle pedal position?)[/color]


It is with a carbureted car, but your car has computer-controlled fuel
injection. Totally different animal.

The computer is smart enough to sense things a mechanical carburetor is
not. This means that it can sense that the engine has NOT fired up, but
that the throttle has been pressed to the floor. The programmers have told
it to recognize Wide Open Throttle (WOT) and a cranking engine as an
attempt at clearing a flooded condition, so it therefore SHUTS OFF the
injectors.

That's why WOT clears a flooded condition.

You probably don't have your owner's manual any more, but it says so in
there.

[color=blue]
> but after I had recharged
> the battery I did this and the engine did indeed eventually stagger
> into life.
>
> With any other car I would have immediately pulled all the plugs and
> dried them out. But on this engine the plugs are set so deep into the
> engine block that I feared that I might not get a good start on the
> thread, and really foul things up.[/color]



Highly unlikely. In fact the deepness of the plugs actually *ensures* that
you will put them in without cross-threading, since your angle of attack is
more perpendicular to the plug hole than if the plugs were fully exposed.




--
TeGGeR®

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
[url]www.tegger.com/hondafaq/[/url]

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
news:Xns9643C868F8C44tegger@207.14.113.17...[color=blue]
> [email]david@btelecom.inva[/email]lid (David ) wrote in
> news:426d705a.15050632@usenet.plus.net:
>
> <snip>
>[color=green]
>>
>> The Toyota dealer told me to leave it for a while. Then to put my
>> foot hard down on the throttle pedal & keep it there until the engine
>> started. This didn't make much sense to me (isn't fuel flow
>> proportional to throttle pedal position?)[/color]
>
>
> It is with a carbureted car, but your car has computer-controlled fuel
> injection. Totally different animal.
>
> The computer is smart enough to sense things a mechanical carburetor is
> not. This means that it can sense that the engine has NOT fired up, but
> that the throttle has been pressed to the floor. The programmers have told
> it to recognize Wide Open Throttle (WOT) and a cranking engine as an
> attempt at clearing a flooded condition, so it therefore SHUTS OFF the
> injectors.
>
> That's why WOT clears a flooded condition.
>
> You probably don't have your owner's manual any more, but it says so in
> there.
>
>[color=green]
>> but after I had recharged
>> the battery I did this and the engine did indeed eventually stagger
>> into life.
>>
>> With any other car I would have immediately pulled all the plugs and
>> dried them out. But on this engine the plugs are set so deep into the
>> engine block that I feared that I might not get a good start on the
>> thread, and really foul things up.[/color]
>
>
>
> Highly unlikely. In fact the deepness of the plugs actually *ensures* that
> you will put them in without cross-threading, since your angle of attack
> is
> more perpendicular to the plug hole than if the plugs were fully exposed.
>
> --
> TeGGeR®
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
> [url]www.tegger.com/hondafaq/[/url][/color]

If you are nervous about cross-threading spark plugs, buy 8 or 12 inches of
auto vacuum hose and slip it over the end of the spark plug, twist the hose
to start the plug. It's flexibility allows you to reach around bends and
the "give" in the hose won't transmit enough force to cross- thread. After
you have twisted the spark plug as far as you can with the hose, just yank
the hose off and finish tightening with a socket. I wouldn't recommend
pulling vacuum hoses off your engine, especially on an older car because the
plastic connectors may have become brittle and may crack when pulling a hose
off or when re-installing. Vacuum hose is relatively inexpensive and auto
parts stores sell it by the inch or by the foot.
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
news:Xns9643C868F8C44tegger@207.14.113.17...[color=blue]
> [email]david@btelecom.inva[/email]lid (David ) wrote in
> news:426d705a.15050632@usenet.plus.net:
>
> <snip>
>[color=green]
>>
>> The Toyota dealer told me to leave it for a while. Then to put my
>> foot hard down on the throttle pedal & keep it there until the engine
>> started. This didn't make much sense to me (isn't fuel flow
>> proportional to throttle pedal position?)[/color]
>
>
> It is with a carbureted car, but your car has computer-controlled fuel
> injection. Totally different animal.
>
> The computer is smart enough to sense things a mechanical carburetor is
> not. This means that it can sense that the engine has NOT fired up, but
> that the throttle has been pressed to the floor. The programmers have told
> it to recognize Wide Open Throttle (WOT) and a cranking engine as an
> attempt at clearing a flooded condition, so it therefore SHUTS OFF the
> injectors.
>
> That's why WOT clears a flooded condition.
>[/color]


Even on a carbureted engine, a WOT would greatly increase the air/fuel ratio
wouldn't it? I have always used this method to start carb'd flooded cars,
with great success.

Greg.

In article <bIkbe.1390$Od6.219526@news.xtra.co.nz>, [email]not_here@nospam.com[/email]
says...[color=blue]
>
> "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
> news:Xns9643C868F8C44tegger@207.14.113.17...[color=green]
> > [email]david@btelecom.inva[/email]lid (David ) wrote in
> > news:426d705a.15050632@usenet.plus.net:
> >
> > <snip>
> >[color=darkred]
> >>
> >> The Toyota dealer told me to leave it for a while. Then to put my
> >> foot hard down on the throttle pedal & keep it there until the engine
> >> started. This didn't make much sense to me (isn't fuel flow
> >> proportional to throttle pedal position?)[/color]
> >
> >
> > It is with a carbureted car, but your car has computer-controlled fuel
> > injection. Totally different animal.
> >
> > The computer is smart enough to sense things a mechanical carburetor is
> > not. This means that it can sense that the engine has NOT fired up, but
> > that the throttle has been pressed to the floor. The programmers have told
> > it to recognize Wide Open Throttle (WOT) and a cranking engine as an
> > attempt at clearing a flooded condition, so it therefore SHUTS OFF the
> > injectors.
> >
> > That's why WOT clears a flooded condition.
> >[/color]
>
>
> Even on a carbureted engine, a WOT would greatly increase the air/fuel ratio
> wouldn't it? I have always used this method to start carb'd flooded cars,
> with great success.
>
> Greg.
>
>
> [/color]
On an auto choke carb, a lot of them have several cold start and cold
start cancel cams, that you operate by either holding on the floor, or
flooring and releasing. that has been known to work with flooding.
--
"Sorry Sir, the meatballs are Orf"
The poster formerly known as Skodapilot.
[url]http://www.bouncing-czechs.com[/url]

"David " <david@btelecom.invalid> wrote in message
news:426d705a.15050632@usenet.plus.net...[color=blue]
> This morning I inadvertantly flooded my Celica GT engine on starting,
> and it took me all of two hours before I was finally able to get
> away.....
>
> This hasn't happened to me since about 6 months after I bought this
> car new in 1997, when I was a little casual and had my foot down on
> the throttle pedal as I cranked the starter. It then 'flooded' the
> engine, and no matter how long I gunned it, it refused to fire up.
> The sparkplugs were obviously too wet.
>
> The Toyota dealer told me to leave it for a while. Then to put my
> foot hard down on the throttle pedal & keep it there until the engine
> started. This didn't make much sense to me (isn't fuel flow
> proportional to throttle pedal position?) but after I had recharged
> the battery I did this and the engine did indeed eventually stagger
> into life.
>
> With any other car I would have immediately pulled all the plugs and
> dried them out. But on this engine the plugs are set so deep into the
> engine block that I feared that I might not get a good start on the
> thread, and really foul things up.
>
> This car has recently been serviced at 72K miles and also has just has
> a it's first new battery. And apart from the regular consumables, I
> haven't had to spend a bean on worn out components etc, in my nearly 8
> years of ownership.
>
> Today, I eventually did remove all 4 plugs and dried them out and so
> got the engine running after a shaky start.
>
> So I'm left wondering - what's the normal cause & best solution to
> this flooding?
>[/color]

it may just be one of those things, it may be a weak battery not giving
enough spark, it may be knackered plugs or ht gear, it may be an engine
coolant temp sender giving a slightly wrong reading, or an ambient air temp
sender or a bad connection somewhere.

I have found the best way to get one going after it has become flooded is
to pull the fuel pump fuse, then crank it over till it fires up (it will
only run for a few moments) give a bit more of a spin with the throttle
down, then replace the fuse and try to start as normal.

mrcheerful

On 25 Apr 2005 23:42:36 GMT, "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote:

[color=blue]
>The computer is smart enough to sense things a mechanical carburetor is
>not. This means that it can sense that the engine has NOT fired up, but
>that the throttle has been pressed to the floor. The programmers have told
>it to recognize Wide Open Throttle (WOT) and a cranking engine as an
>attempt at clearing a flooded condition, so it therefore SHUTS OFF the
>injectors.
>
>That's why WOT clears a flooded condition.
>
>You probably don't have your owner's manual any more, but it says so in
>there.
>[/color]
Hi Tegg

I just dug it out, (I throw nothing away!) and you're right - it does
address this problem under 'starting a flooded engine'. I had never
noticed that section before......

It suggests something similar to your comments above, except:

a) Turn the key to START with the pedal held down for 15 seconds only,
and then release them. [More than 15 seconds may overheat the starter]

b) If the engine does not start try starting with your foot off the
pedal for 15 seconds only.

c) If the engine does not start, release the key. Wait a few minutes
and try again.

d) If not successful, it needs adjustment or repair. Call a Toyota
dealer!

I noted nothing there about drying off the plugs - which was my
eventual cure. Perhaps that what the dealer does....

It also advises under Normal Starting to keep your foot on the clutch
pedal but off the accelerator pedal when cranking.


<snip>
[color=blue]
>.................. I feared that I might not get a good start on the[color=green]
>> thread, and really foul things up.[/color]
>
>
>
>Highly unlikely. In fact the deepness of the plugs actually *ensures* that
>you will put them in without cross-threading, since your angle of attack is
>more perpendicular to the plug hole than if the plugs were fully exposed.[/color]

Yea.. this all goes back to the time I managed to cross-thread a VW
bug when fitting a plug (out of sight) where a helicoil insert was
starting to emerge.......

On my 3S-GE engine the plugs do sit well down. In fact the Toyota
supplied tool is not quite long enough to work easily.

But I do appreciate the ideas supplied by Ray & the others.

David

>[color=blue]
>So I'm left wondering - what's the normal cause & best solution to
>this flooding?
>[/color]

to begin with ... i don't think you should be touching the throttle
when cold starting.

The recovery for flooding is to hold the throttle wide open.



"David " <david@btelecom.invalid> wrote in message
news:426d705a.15050632@usenet.plus.net...[color=blue]
> This morning I inadvertantly flooded my Celica GT engine on starting,
> and it took me all of two hours before I was finally able to get
> away.....
>
> This hasn't happened to me since about 6 months after I bought this
> car new in 1997, when I was a little casual and had my foot down on
> the throttle pedal as I cranked the starter. It then 'flooded' the
> engine, and no matter how long I gunned it, it refused to fire up.
> The sparkplugs were obviously too wet.
>
> The Toyota dealer told me to leave it for a while. Then to put my
> foot hard down on the throttle pedal & keep it there until the engine
> started. This didn't make much sense to me (isn't fuel flow
> proportional to throttle pedal position?) but after I had recharged
> the battery I did this and the engine did indeed eventually stagger
> into life.
>
> With any other car I would have immediately pulled all the plugs and
> dried them out. But on this engine the plugs are set so deep into the
> engine block that I feared that I might not get a good start on the
> thread, and really foul things up.
>
> This car has recently been serviced at 72K miles and also has just has
> a it's first new battery. And apart from the regular consumables, I
> haven't had to spend a bean on worn out components etc, in my nearly 8
> years of ownership.
>
> Today, I eventually did remove all 4 plugs and dried them out and so
> got the engine running after a shaky start.
>
> So I'm left wondering - what's the normal cause & best solution to
> this flooding?
>
> David
>
>
>
> David[/color]

"Jeff Strickland" <spamcatcher@yahoo.net> wrote in message
news:QJCdnfp26fO8MPPfRVn-oA@ez2.net...[color=blue]
> The recovery for flooding is to hold the throttle wide open.
>[/color]
<snip>

Does this guy ever look at any of the other responses to the OPs' questions
before responding or is he ignoring them in hopes that the OP will think his
is the first and only correct response?
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply

Responses are all over the ball park. Your response is the same as mine, but
provides circuit detail that I opted nto to give, but your reply is not to
the OP.

It is difficult to tell which the OP will actually read, so why not keep the
answer short and sweet.

The recovery to flooding is to hold the throttle wide open. Have you
anything to add?





"Ray O" <rokigawa@tristarassociatesDOT.com> wrote in message
news:32328$426eb3e0$44a4a10d$6911@msgid.meganewsservers.com...[color=blue]
>
>
> "Jeff Strickland" <spamcatcher@yahoo.net> wrote in message
> news:QJCdnfp26fO8MPPfRVn-oA@ez2.net...[color=green]
> > The recovery for flooding is to hold the throttle wide open.
> >[/color]
> <snip>
>
> Does this guy ever look at any of the other responses to the OPs'[/color]
questions[color=blue]
> before responding or is he ignoring them in hopes that the OP will think[/color]
his[color=blue]
> is the first and only correct response?
> --
> Ray O
> correct the return address punctuation to reply
>
>
>[/color]

"Greg" <not_here@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:bIkbe.1390$Od6.219526@news.xtra.co.nz...[color=blue]
>
> "TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
> news:Xns9643C868F8C44tegger@207.14.113.17...[color=green]
> > [email]david@btelecom.inva[/email]lid (David ) wrote in
> > news:426d705a.15050632@usenet.plus.net:
> >
> > <snip>
> >[color=darkred]
> >>
> >> The Toyota dealer told me to leave it for a while. Then to put my
> >> foot hard down on the throttle pedal & keep it there until the engine
> >> started. This didn't make much sense to me (isn't fuel flow
> >> proportional to throttle pedal position?)[/color]
> >
> >
> > It is with a carbureted car, but your car has computer-controlled fuel
> > injection. Totally different animal.
> >
> > The computer is smart enough to sense things a mechanical carburetor is
> > not. This means that it can sense that the engine has NOT fired up, but
> > that the throttle has been pressed to the floor. The programmers have[/color][/color]
told[color=blue][color=green]
> > it to recognize Wide Open Throttle (WOT) and a cranking engine as an
> > attempt at clearing a flooded condition, so it therefore SHUTS OFF the
> > injectors.
> >
> > That's why WOT clears a flooded condition.
> >[/color]
>
>
> Even on a carbureted engine, a WOT would greatly increase the air/fuel[/color]
ratio[color=blue]
> wouldn't it? I have always used this method to start carb'd flooded cars,
> with great success.
>[/color]

If you resist the temptation to pump the throttle pedal, then you will
increase the air to the point that it eventually mateches the amount of
fuel, and the engine will roar to life, then sputter a few times and perhaps
die out again. At this point, it should start normally.

That was true when engines had automatic chokes, but that will
not work on todays microprocessor controlled engines


mike hunt



Jeff Strickland wrote:[color=blue]
>
> The recovery for flooding is to hold the throttle wide open.
>
> "David " <david@btelecom.invalid> wrote in message
> news:426d705a.15050632@usenet.plus.net...[color=green]
> > This morning I inadvertantly flooded my Celica GT engine on starting,
> > and it took me all of two hours before I was finally able to get
> > away.....[/color]
>[/color]

That's not what Ray said.





<MelvinGibson@mailcity.com> wrote in message
news:426EC1E2.B0A4C5D3@mailcity.com...[color=blue]
> That was true when engines had automatic chokes, but that will
> not work on todays microprocessor controlled engines
>
>
> mike hunt
>
>
>
> Jeff Strickland wrote:[color=green]
> >
> > The recovery for flooding is to hold the throttle wide open.
> >
> > "David " <david@btelecom.invalid> wrote in message
> > news:426d705a.15050632@usenet.plus.net...[color=darkred]
> > > This morning I inadvertantly flooded my Celica GT engine on starting,
> > > and it took me all of two hours before I was finally able to get
> > > away.....[/color]
> >[/color][/color]

"Jeff Strickland" <spamcatcher@yahoo.net> wrote in message
news:UfSdnRwSgOrhJfPfRVn-rw@ez2.net...[color=blue]
> Responses are all over the ball park. Your response is the same as mine,
> but
> provides circuit detail that I opted nto to give, but your reply is not to
> the OP.
>[/color]

I thought all the responses I saw basically said the same thing - to hold
the throttle wide open and crank, whether carb or EFI or elaborated on that
idea.

I did not provide a response since the OP's question was already correctly
answered. I respect TeGGeR's automotive knowledge and he certainly doesn't
need a confirmation from me to let the OP know that TeGGeR is correct.
[color=blue]
> It is difficult to tell which the OP will actually read, so why not keep
> the
> answer short and sweet.[/color]

I'm a relative usenet newbie. Is my assumption that the OP would read most,
if not all, of the responses in a short thread incorrect? Do people who
post questions looking for advice just randomly choose which response to
read? If there are many responses that basically say the same thing or
elaborate or explain the response, will a short and sweet response posted
above earlier responses give the OP the reassurance he needs to follow the
unanamous advice in the thread?

How about when a response differs or gives incorrect information? If the
responses differ, should the OP follow the advice of a current or former
professional in the field and the marjoity or the responses or should the OP
follow the advice of an amateur or minority response?
[color=blue]
>
> The recovery to flooding is to hold the throttle wide open. Have you
> anything to add?
>[/color]

Just some questions the OP might want to ask...
Should the OP be concerned about what is causing the engine to flood in the
first place?
What could cause an EFI engine to flood?
What is the most likely cause?
How would the OP go about determining the cause?
Is it better to check out obscure stuff that usually never fails before
checking out more likely causes?
Should the OP do costly checks before inexpensive checks?
Since the car is not that new, can't you just use the wide-open throttle
method to start the car and not worry about what is causing it to flood in
the first place?
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply