toyota dealer adding $650 TAD to KBB listed dealer invoice price (BS?)

I've been hitting Toyota dealers in the houston area with a price of $450
over KBB listed invoice. They get to keep the dealer holdback (~$500) since
this will be an ordered vehicle.

All of the guys keep telling me that KBB does not include the TAD
(advertising fee) and the actual cost to te dealer is 650 above that price.
There glad to sell it to me at 450 above the KBB+650 price.

Is that a rat I smell?

Mook Johnson wrote:
[color=blue]
>
> All of the guys keep telling me that KBB does not include the TAD
> (advertising fee) and the actual cost to te dealer is 650 above that price.
> There glad to sell it to me at 450 above the KBB+650 price.
>
> Is that a rat I smell?
>
>[/color]



Maybe, but think of this:

If _none_ of them will sell you the car for a lower price, does it
matter? <G>

"Mook Johnson" <mook@mook.net> wrote in message
news:4Peqe.32983$PR6.31089@tornado.texas.rr.com...[color=blue]
> I've been hitting Toyota dealers in the houston area with a price of $450
> over KBB listed invoice. They get to keep the dealer holdback (~$500)
> since this will be an ordered vehicle.
>
> All of the guys keep telling me that KBB does not include the TAD
> (advertising fee) and the actual cost to te dealer is 650 above that
> price. There glad to sell it to me at 450 above the KBB+650 price.
>
> Is that a rat I smell?[/color]
I bought my second Toyota in 1983. It as a new Camry and I was in Arizona.
The dealer wanted to charge me for "high altitude jets." The Camry was fuel
injected.
jor

Check the area dealers thru their Internet sales dept, it's a totally
different experience. Ask for what you want and an out the door price.

--

73
Hank WD5JFR
"Mook Johnson" <mook@mook.net> wrote in message
news:4Peqe.32983$PR6.31089@tornado.texas.rr.com...[color=blue]
> I've been hitting Toyota dealers in the houston area with a price of $450
> over KBB listed invoice. They get to keep the dealer holdback (~$500)
> since this will be an ordered vehicle.
>
> All of the guys keep telling me that KBB does not include the TAD
> (advertising fee) and the actual cost to te dealer is 650 above that
> price. There glad to sell it to me at 450 above the KBB+650 price.
>
> Is that a rat I smell?
>[/color]

On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:45:49 GMT, B a r r y
<keep_it_in_the_newsgroup_please@thankyou.com> wrote:[color=blue]
>Mook Johnson wrote:[/color]
[color=blue][color=green]
>> All of the guys keep telling me that KBB does not include the TAD
>> (advertising fee) and the actual cost to te dealer is 650 above that price.
>> There glad to sell it to me at 450 above the KBB+650 price.
>>
>> Is that a rat I smell?[/color]
>
>Maybe, but think of this:
>
>If _none_ of them will sell you the car for a lower price, does it
>matter? <G>[/color]

I have to agree - they seem to have a minimum profit point already
decided on, and that's that. The dealer /does/ have to make some
money on the deal, your job is to make sure they don't get greedy. ;-)

You might try calling dealers a bit farther away and see if they
want to deal any harder, because their overhead is lower. I ended up
buying at the other end of the state, and saved myself about $6K in
the process. In Los Angeles it was "the hot car" selling ADM over
sticker, in San Francisco they couldn't give them away.

Mook: It looks like you're in Texas, and IIRC that's Southwest
Toyota Distributing territory. Try a state or two over where they
deal with TMS-USA directly, that might make all the difference.

(Road Trip to pick up the car, or a one-way plane/bus ticket there
and drive the new car home.)

I've heard that SWTD "packs" many of the vehicles they sell at the
port with the same kind of useless options dealers usually add, like
paint treatments and cheap alarm systems, to add to their profits.
That could be where part of that $450 is going.

--<< Bruce >>--

--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

EVERY manufactures invoice includes the dealers portion of the
nation advertising that the manufacture asses to the dealer.

When buying a vehicle, any brand, ask for a total delivered
price, not just a selling price, of the one you are interested in
purchasing. Tell the dealer you will not agree to any deal that
includes anything other than the selling price, less trade if
any, interest if financing, and taxes and licensing fees, WBMA.
The only way to compare prices among dealers, or brands is by the
total delivered price, period.

Interest and retention rates alone can result in a total price
difference of a thousand dollars or more on the SAME purchase
price, from dealer to dealer or brand to brand, on
a four year contract.


mike hunt



"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote:[color=blue]
>
> On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:45:49 GMT, B a r r y
> <keep_it_in_the_newsgroup_please@thankyou.com> wrote:[color=green]
> >Mook Johnson wrote:[/color]
>[color=green][color=darkred]
> >> All of the guys keep telling me that KBB does not include the TAD
> >> (advertising fee) and the actual cost to te dealer is 650 above that price.
> >> There glad to sell it to me at 450 above the KBB+650 price.
> >>
> >> Is that a rat I smell?[/color]
> >[/color][/color]

"Mook Johnson" <mook@mook.net> wrote in message
news:4Peqe.32983$PR6.31089@tornado.texas.rr.com...[color=blue]
> I've been hitting Toyota dealers in the houston area with a price of $450
> over KBB listed invoice. They get to keep the dealer holdback (~$500)
> since this will be an ordered vehicle.
>
> All of the guys keep telling me that KBB does not include the TAD
> (advertising fee) and the actual cost to te dealer is 650 above that
> price. There glad to sell it to me at 450 above the KBB+650 price.
>
> Is that a rat I smell?[/color]
Dealers who are members of the local Toyota Dealers Advertising Association
pay a TDA fee for every vehicle. The TDA shows up on their invoice but not
on the Monroney Label. The Association uses the fees for local advertising.


--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply

<DustyRhoades@mailcity.com> wrote in message
news:42A9BB9E.3203AC8D@mailcity.com...[color=blue]
> EVERY manufactures invoice includes the dealers portion of the
> nation advertising that the manufacture asses to the dealer.[/color]

This is splitting hairs, but for Toyota, each region (called zones by GM and
Ford) has its own dealer advertising association and the advertising fees
are actually asssesed by the association, not the manufacturer. The
manufacturer merely collects the fees and turns it over to the association.
[color=blue]
>
> When buying a vehicle, any brand, ask for a total delivered
> price, not just a selling price, of the one you are interested in
> purchasing. Tell the dealer you will not agree to any deal that
> includes anything other than the selling price, less trade if
> any, interest if financing, and taxes and licensing fees, WBMA.
> The only way to compare prices among dealers, or brands is by the
> total delivered price, period.[/color]

Great advice! Avoid "dealer prep" because dealers are reimbursed for this
by the manufacturer. Some dealers charge a documentation or "doc" fee to
handle all the paperwork. IMO, administrative support is dealer overhead
and should come out of the dealer's profits, not the customer's pocket.
That would be like a restaurant charging you to take a reservation and
figure out the bill. I wouldn't have a problem paying the dealer a nominal
fee if they send someone over to the state licensing facility if I didn't
want to make the run myself.
[color=blue]
>
> Interest and retention rates alone can result in a total price
> difference of a thousand dollars or more on the SAME purchase
> price, from dealer to dealer or brand to brand, on
> a four year contract.
>
>
> mike hunt
>
>[/color]

Mike, what do you mean by "retention rate?" Is that flooring? Residual?
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply

I "toyed" with the GM "buy at what GM employee's pay" pricing on an
envoy, not that I'd buy one, yep SUB market and GM is hurting but they
took a chunk off MSRP..... (over $7000 on 33,000)

But finding a Toyota dealer to do it is something else. But it does
show there is a pretty good margin hidden in the prices.

still feebly resisting wife's want of a new Avalon Limited
Ron

I. E. Let's say GMAC etc. retention is 3.9% on a new car, four
year 4.9%, non incentive, non recourse contract. The dealer
charges you 5.9%. That 2% is paid to the dealer in his quarterly
alone with the holdback. He gets to keep that, even if one
prepays or even defaults on the loan. Don't forget you are paying
interest on every add-on the dealer can put into the deal, as
well

That is just one of the reason I always suggest one drive and get
a total drive home price, on all of those brands and models that
suits their needs and buy the one that best suits their budget.
ALL manufactures today are building good vehicles. Do not get
hung up on brands for which dealers are taking you for a sucker.
No mater where a model or brand falls in any particular survey,
the odds of getting one of their bad ones is less than 1% so why
not get the lowest drive home price possible? Particularly when
the savings can
easily be 30% or 40% of the monthly payment between deals.


mike hunt



Ray O wrote:[color=blue]
>
> <DustyRhoades@mailcity.com> wrote in message
> news:42A9BB9E.3203AC8D@mailcity.com...[color=green]
> > EVERY manufactures invoice includes the dealers portion of the
> > nation advertising that the manufacture asses to the dealer.[/color]
>
> This is splitting hairs, but for Toyota, each region (called zones by GM and
> Ford) has its own dealer advertising association and the advertising fees
> are actually asssesed by the association, not the manufacturer. The
> manufacturer merely collects the fees and turns it over to the association.
>[color=green]
> >
> > When buying a vehicle, any brand, ask for a total delivered
> > price, not just a selling price, of the one you are interested in
> > purchasing. Tell the dealer you will not agree to any deal that
> > includes anything other than the selling price, less trade if
> > any, interest if financing, and taxes and licensing fees, WBMA.
> > The only way to compare prices among dealers, or brands is by the
> > total delivered price, period.[/color]
>
> Great advice! Avoid "dealer prep" because dealers are reimbursed for this
> by the manufacturer. Some dealers charge a documentation or "doc" fee to
> handle all the paperwork. IMO, administrative support is dealer overhead
> and should come out of the dealer's profits, not the customer's pocket.
> That would be like a restaurant charging you to take a reservation and
> figure out the bill. I wouldn't have a problem paying the dealer a nominal
> fee if they send someone over to the state licensing facility if I didn't
> want to make the run myself.
>[color=green]
> >
> > Interest and retention rates alone can result in a total price
> > difference of a thousand dollars or more on the SAME purchase
> > price, from dealer to dealer or brand to brand, on
> > a four year contract.
> >
> >
> > mike hunt
> >
> >[/color]
>
> Mike, what do you mean by "retention rate?" Is that flooring? Residual?
> --
> Ray O
> correct the return address punctuation to reply[/color]

On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 18:41:52 GMT, "ron" <randus3remove@pacbell.net>
wrote:
[color=blue]
>I "toyed" with the GM "buy at what GM employee's pay" pricing on an
>envoy, not that I'd buy one, yep SUB market and GM is hurting but they
>took a chunk off MSRP..... (over $7000 on 33,000)
>
>But finding a Toyota dealer to do it is something else. But it does
>show there is a pretty good margin hidden in the prices.
>
>still feebly resisting wife's want of a new Avalon Limited
>Ron[/color]

Be a MAN....

Stand up to her.....

.....let us know what color the new Avalon is... <g>
--

Scott in Florida

One would think the Land Cruiser would be the more comparable
vehicle to an Envoy, not the Avalon.. Perhaps you should
consider the Buick model that replaced the LeSabre, that you
could buy for at least $12,000 less than the Avalon? That
$12,000 will buy all your gas and pay for you insurance for at
least four years ;)


mike hunt



ron wrote:[color=blue]
>
> I "toyed" with the GM "buy at what GM employee's pay" pricing on an
> envoy, not that I'd buy one, yep SUB market and GM is hurting but they
> took a chunk off MSRP..... (over $7000 on 33,000)
>
> But finding a Toyota dealer to do it is something else. But it does
> show there is a pretty good margin hidden in the prices.
>
> still feebly resisting wife's want of a new Avalon Limited
> Ron[/color]

<DustyRhoades@mailcity.com> wrote in message
news:42A9E5AE.6C22EDA6@mailcity.com...[color=blue]
> One would think the Land Cruiser would be the more comparable
> vehicle to an Envoy, not the Avalon.. Perhaps you should
> consider the Buick model that replaced the LeSabre, that you
> could buy for at least $12,000 less than the Avalon? That
> $12,000 will buy all your gas and pay for you insurance for at
> least four years ;)
>
>
> mike hunt
>[/color]

I would think that Highlander is closer to an Envoy in price, size, and
performance than a Land Cruiser.

According to Buick's web site, the LeSabre is still available, the Lucerne
will be available in the fall of 2005.

If you compare the base MSRP of the 2005 LeSabre to the base MSRP of the
2005 Avalon, there certainly is no $12,000 difference. The LeSabre Custom
is 27,270; the Limited is 32,930, and the Celebration Edition is 34,130.

The Avalon XL is 26,350, or $920 less than the base LeSabre;
the XLS is $30,80, or 2,130 less than the middle grade LeSabre;
The Avalon Limited is 33,540, or $590 less than the top grade LeSabre.

I realize that those price differences are MSRP only and that the
out-the-door price of the popular Avalon is much closer to its MSRP than the
deeply discounted LeSabre. I did not compare content so I don't know if
one vehicle offers more content than the other.

In my mind, GM announcing the "employee purchase" pricing discount across
the board is tantamount to them announcing that their prices were too high
across the board for the demand for their products. With the LeSabre soon
to be replaced, one could probably acquire one for less than an Avalon, but
I doubt if it would be $12,000 less. If acquisition cost is the most
important consideration when purchasing a vehicle, then there are some good
deals to be had at a GM dealer right now. If you consider other factors,
then the choice is not as clear...

--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply

Last GM product I had was a 96 Jimmy.

Never again.

Just "priced" what their so called discount is and its pretty steep.

As far as Avalon color, Scott, probably be a light one. Gets HOT here
in Redding, Ca... Since she is no longer driving in her job (Home
Care RN) her 02 Avalon has only 44 k miles on it and since it is
garaged, looks new, leather and fairly young Michelins. Maybe she
will wait for 06's? I think if she saw a Titanium or metallic gray
limited I'd be sunk...

Ron

<DustyRhoades@mailcity.com> wrote in message
news:42A9DFBF.8982A420@mailcity.com...[color=blue]
> I. E. Let's say GMAC etc. retention is 3.9% on a new car, four
> year 4.9%, non incentive, non recourse contract. The dealer
> charges you 5.9%. That 2% is paid to the dealer in his quarterly
> alone with the holdback. He gets to keep that, even if one
> prepays or even defaults on the loan. Don't forget you are paying
> interest on every add-on the dealer can put into the deal, as
> well[/color]

Got it. I had never heard a Toyota dealer refer to the difference between
his cost and what he charged the customer as retention. The just called it
"margin on paper".
[color=blue]
>
> That is just one of the reason I always suggest one drive and get
> a total drive home price, on all of those brands and models that
> suits their needs and buy the one that best suits their budget.
> ALL manufactures today are building good vehicles. Do not get
> hung up on brands for which dealers are taking you for a sucker.
> No mater where a model or brand falls in any particular survey,
> the odds of getting one of their bad ones is less than 1% so why
> not get the lowest drive home price possible? Particularly when
> the savings can
> easily be 30% or 40% of the monthly payment between deals.
>
>
> mike hunt
>[/color]

Because I used to work for Toyota, you incorrectly assume that I recommend
only Toyota products. There are many reasons why people choose one brand or
model over another, and I happen to agree with you that the differences in
reliability of the top 5 or 7 automakers in the world have pretty much
disappeared, but not entirely.

If cost is a major consideration and someone replaces the car every 3 years,
then I recommend Ford products because they offer a reasonable blend of
price, content, and reliability. For someone who replaces cars every 3 or 4
years, my advice is the same as yours - drive, price, and compare. IMO, if
someone keeps a car 5 to 15 years, then Toyota's slight edge in quality and
reliability start to justify the higher initial acquisition cost although I
still tell people drive, price, and compare.

Regardless of the factors you and I consider when choosing a car, there are
millions of people who consider other reasons for buying a car. I once
dated a girl who bought a Gremlin because it was the only car that came in
her favorite shade of purple. People purchase hybrids because they want to
be seen as environmentally friendly, even though the hybrid premium negates
any gas cost savings. Why would someone pay $70k for a Phaeton that looks
like a Passat? Why do people pay money for conestoga wagon wheels? Why buy
a normally aspirated 911 when a Corvette could run it into the ground?
Luckily, people do consider other factors, otherwise, we wouldn't have many
choices in cars and everyone would be driving the same thing - boring!
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply