4Runner question

In my Toyota 4Runner, year 2000, 4WD, last Saturday an indicator light with
the word "Check" and above it the shape of an engine turned on. Checking the
owner's manual it recommended to take the car to a dealer as soon as
possible.

Today I took it to the local dealer. They spent about 4 hours at a cost of $
225.00 to find out what was wrong. They came with the answer that the
odometer and speed control needed replacement, at who knows what additional
cost, they will quote tomorrow because their parts supplier was already
closed.

I am not sure if they as BSing me, but I feel very uncomfortable about the
whole affair. Shouldn't the electronic computerized diagnostic have
uncovered this immediately? Has any one out there had a similar experience?
Any comments, suggestions?
Thank you.

Gabe

"gaus1" <gaus1@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:ldqre.95150$CR5.58001@bignews1.bellsouth.net...[color=blue]
> In my Toyota 4Runner, year 2000, 4WD, last Saturday an indicator light
> with
> the word "Check" and above it the shape of an engine turned on. Checking
> the
> owner's manual it recommended to take the car to a dealer as soon as
> possible.
>
> Today I took it to the local dealer. They spent about 4 hours at a cost of
> $
> 225.00 to find out what was wrong. They came with the answer that the
> odometer and speed control needed replacement, at who knows what
> additional
> cost, they will quote tomorrow because their parts supplier was already
> closed.
>
> I am not sure if they as BSing me, but I feel very uncomfortable about the
> whole affair. Shouldn't the electronic computerized diagnostic have
> uncovered this immediately? Has any one out there had a similar
> experience?
> Any comments, suggestions?
> Thank you.
>
> Gabe
>[/color]

People often think that when the diagnostic trouble codes stored in
electronic control units point to a component like a speed sensor then the
component needs replacement. What the trouble code is actually pointing to
is the circuit for the component, which, of course, includes the component.
The circuit includes power and ground for the component, signal wires, and
all of the connections in-between the ECU and component.

You mentioned that the odometer and speed control need replacement but there
is no component called a "speed control". There are vehicle speed sensors
in the transmission and in the speedometer/odometer assembly, and it sounds
like they are talking about the sensor in the speedo head.

4 hours just to diagnose a speed sensor circuit sounds like a lot but it
does not sound like a lot to diagnose and replace the speedo head assembly
because part of the dashboard has to come apart. If the 4 hours includes
diagnosis, removal, and replacement and you have to add the cost of the
parts, that sounds reasonable.
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply

Your car is fitted with an engine management system called OBD II (On Board
Diagnostics, Level 2). This means you can buy a tool for about $100 (USD) --
less if you shop on eBay or look around at the local auto parts stores --
that plugs into a data port that is located along the bottom edge of the
dash board in the area where your left leg is placed while you are driving.

You can plug the code reader in, and in less than 30 seconds, you will know
what made the Check Engine Light come on.

The short answer to your question, shouldn't the reader have figure this out
much faster? is a resounding YES. Now, it could have told the mechanic what
made the light come on, but they spent 4 hours trying to isolate the
offending sensor. I have to agree with you, I am uncomfortable with the $225
bill to take a guess at what to do next.

What you need to do is arm yourself with information. If you are in
California, you can go to AutoZone stores -- I am not sure about Kragen --
and they will allow you to use the code reader for free. Give them your
driver's license and you can use the tool in the parking lot, put the tool
on your credit card and you can take it home for the weekend, then get a
credit posted to your card when you return the tool. (If you use the tool in
the parking lot, it's free, or you can take the tool home for the normal
sales price, then get a full refund when you return it, making it free to
use this way as well.) I am not sure how other states handle consumers
having access to this tool, but in California, you have every right to learn
what is wrong with your car BEFORE you hand it over to the repair shop. If
you haven't got an AutoZone, then go to pretty much any auto parts store and
ask if they have a Loaner Tool Program. If they do, then they should have
the OBD II Code Reader. If you weren't aware, many of the national chain
stores will let you used specialized tools for free.





"gaus1" <gaus1@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:ldqre.95150$CR5.58001@bignews1.bellsouth.net...[color=blue]
> In my Toyota 4Runner, year 2000, 4WD, last Saturday an indicator light[/color]
with[color=blue]
> the word "Check" and above it the shape of an engine turned on. Checking[/color]
the[color=blue]
> owner's manual it recommended to take the car to a dealer as soon as
> possible.
>
> Today I took it to the local dealer. They spent about 4 hours at a cost of[/color]
$[color=blue]
> 225.00 to find out what was wrong. They came with the answer that the
> odometer and speed control needed replacement, at who knows what[/color]
additional[color=blue]
> cost, they will quote tomorrow because their parts supplier was already
> closed.
>
> I am not sure if they as BSing me, but I feel very uncomfortable about the
> whole affair. Shouldn't the electronic computerized diagnostic have
> uncovered this immediately? Has any one out there had a similar[/color]
experience?[color=blue]
> Any comments, suggestions?
> Thank you.
>
> Gabe
>
>[/color]

"Jeff Strickland" <spamcatcher@yahoo.net> wrote in message
news:t56dnZ3FhfMOxDLfRVn-vA@ez2.net...

<snipped>

[color=blue]
> You can plug the code reader in, and in less than 30 seconds, you will
> know
> what made the Check Engine Light come on.[/color]

A popular misconception. A diagnostic trouble code and code reader will not
tell you what made the malfunction indicator light come on, but it will tell
you what circuit or system made the malfunction indicator light come on.

Anyone that replaces components identified by a code scanner without
actually checking to see whether the component is good or bad is lazy or
incompetent.

For example, in the OP's case, it could have been a loose connection to the
speed sensor, a shorted or open wire between the speed sensor and the ECU, a
faulty speed sensor, or a faulty ECU.

[color=blue]
>
> The short answer to your question, shouldn't the reader have figure this
> out
> much faster? is a resounding YES. Now, it could have told the mechanic
> what
> made the light come on, but they spent 4 hours trying to isolate the
> offending sensor. I have to agree with you, I am uncomfortable with the
> $225
> bill to take a guess at what to do next.
>
> What you need to do is arm yourself with information. If you are in
> California, you can go to AutoZone stores -- I am not sure about Kragen --
> and they will allow you to use the code reader for free. Give them your
> driver's license and you can use the tool in the parking lot, put the tool
> on your credit card and you can take it home for the weekend, then get a
> credit posted to your card when you return the tool. (If you use the tool
> in
> the parking lot, it's free, or you can take the tool home for the normal
> sales price, then get a full refund when you return it, making it free to
> use this way as well.) I am not sure how other states handle consumers
> having access to this tool, but in California, you have every right to
> learn
> what is wrong with your car BEFORE you hand it over to the repair shop. If
> you haven't got an AutoZone, then go to pretty much any auto parts store
> and
> ask if they have a Loaner Tool Program. If they do, then they should have
> the OBD II Code Reader. If you weren't aware, many of the national chain
> stores will let you used specialized tools for free.
>[/color]

--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply

"Ray O" <rokigawa@tristarassociatesDOT.com> wrote in message
news:ab4ab$42af5ba0$44a4a10d$18293@msgid.meganewsservers.com...[color=blue]
>
> "Jeff Strickland" <spamcatcher@yahoo.net> wrote in message
> news:t56dnZ3FhfMOxDLfRVn-vA@ez2.net...
>
> <snipped>
>
>[color=green]
> > You can plug the code reader in, and in less than 30 seconds, you will
> > know
> > what made the Check Engine Light come on.[/color]
>
> A popular misconception. A diagnostic trouble code and code reader will[/color]
not[color=blue]
> tell you what made the malfunction indicator light come on, but it will[/color]
tell[color=blue]
> you what circuit or system made the malfunction indicator light come on.
>
> Anyone that replaces components identified by a code scanner without
> actually checking to see whether the component is good or bad is lazy or
> incompetent.
>
> For example, in the OP's case, it could have been a loose connection to[/color]
the[color=blue]
> speed sensor, a shorted or open wire between the speed sensor and the ECU,[/color]
a[color=blue]
> faulty speed sensor, or a faulty ECU.
>
>[/color]

Agreed. One doesn't blindly replace the first thing that the reader tells
them to, but they inspect that part and investigate the integrity of the
connection.

But, when the code reader says the framis circuit caused the error, then the
owner has a reasonable question when he is handed a bill for the
installation of a new doohicky, and a thorough cleaning of the whatsit
valve. Unless these things are inline somewhere in the framis circuit, they
ought not be on the service ticket.

Any owner is smart to own a code reader for an OBD II compliant vehicle.
More often than not, the reader will pinpoint the correct part. My strategy
would be to list up the codes and reset them, then see if any of the listed
codes repeat when the light comes on again. This is a good strategy for many
of the codes, especially for the Evaproative Control System Malfunction
codes - P0440 for example. This is the code that says the gas cap isn't
sealed well. It really means that there is a leak in the Evap Cont Sys, but
since the gas cap is frequently taken off and put back on, and the
owner/operator can fit it incorrectly, then it usually means that the gas
cap is not sealed. If the owner/operator resets the code, and takes care to
properly fit the gas cap, then he or she will have a benchmark to have the
hoses checked if the light comes back on and the code is P0440 again.

Personally, I think the service center should be required to write the OBD
II Code on the service ticket so the consumer can check to see if the framis
circuit, the doohicky and the whatsit valve are even related to the reported
malfunction. The goal here is to disclose to the consumer what the service
guys did, and why they did it. Since the service center is not required to
write the code, then the owner/operator of an OBD II compliant vehicle
should have a code reader in his garage, just like he would have a hammer
and a pair of pliers. The consumer might not be able to use the knowledge he
would gain from having the tool for anything other than asking if the
doohicky and the whatsit valve are part of the framis circuit, then asking
why the framis wasn't serviced when the code clearly said that was the
problem.

Most of the codes are pretty specific, and there can't be very many other
things beyond the framis circuit that can throw the framis circuit code. If
there is something that can affect the framis circuit, then it will have a
code of its own. Or, it will be a sub code of the framis circuit codes. For
example, the framis circuit will have a failure and the code is a general
framis code such as P0440, then there will be other codes that tell the
precise section of the framis circuit, or that the particular part is open
or shorted or otherwise out of range, in this case the code might be P0441
or P0442, etc. (NOTE - I know the P0440 codes are the Evaporative Emission
Control System, not a ficticious Framis Circuit.)

In any case, the OP would be a much smarter consumer of vehicle maintenance
services if he or she had an OBD II Code Reader that he owned or could use
in the parking lot of the local parts store.

"Jeff Strickland" <spamcatcher@yahoo.net> wrote in message
news:2rCdnalCE4qF7TLfRVn-qw@ez2.net...[color=blue]
>
> "Ray O" <rokigawa@tristarassociatesDOT.com> wrote in message
> news:ab4ab$42af5ba0$44a4a10d$18293@msgid.meganewsservers.com...[color=green]
>>
>> "Jeff Strickland" <spamcatcher@yahoo.net> wrote in message
>> news:t56dnZ3FhfMOxDLfRVn-vA@ez2.net...
>>
>> <snipped>
>>
>>[color=darkred]
>> > You can plug the code reader in, and in less than 30 seconds, you will
>> > know
>> > what made the Check Engine Light come on.[/color]
>>
>> A popular misconception. A diagnostic trouble code and code reader will[/color]
> not[color=green]
>> tell you what made the malfunction indicator light come on, but it will[/color]
> tell[color=green]
>> you what circuit or system made the malfunction indicator light come on.
>>
>> Anyone that replaces components identified by a code scanner without
>> actually checking to see whether the component is good or bad is lazy or
>> incompetent.
>>
>> For example, in the OP's case, it could have been a loose connection to[/color]
> the[color=green]
>> speed sensor, a shorted or open wire between the speed sensor and the
>> ECU,[/color]
> a[color=green]
>> faulty speed sensor, or a faulty ECU.
>>
>>[/color]
>
> Agreed. One doesn't blindly replace the first thing that the reader tells
> them to, but they inspect that part and investigate the integrity of the
> connection.
>
> But, when the code reader says the framis circuit caused the error, then
> the
> owner has a reasonable question when he is handed a bill for the
> installation of a new doohicky, and a thorough cleaning of the whatsit
> valve. Unless these things are inline somewhere in the framis circuit,
> they
> ought not be on the service ticket.
>
> Any owner is smart to own a code reader for an OBD II compliant vehicle.
> More often than not, the reader will pinpoint the correct part. My
> strategy
> would be to list up the codes and reset them, then see if any of the
> listed
> codes repeat when the light comes on again. This is a good strategy for
> many
> of the codes, especially for the Evaproative Control System Malfunction
> codes - P0440 for example. This is the code that says the gas cap isn't
> sealed well. It really means that there is a leak in the Evap Cont Sys,
> but
> since the gas cap is frequently taken off and put back on, and the
> owner/operator can fit it incorrectly, then it usually means that the gas
> cap is not sealed. If the owner/operator resets the code, and takes care
> to
> properly fit the gas cap, then he or she will have a benchmark to have the
> hoses checked if the light comes back on and the code is P0440 again.
>[/color]
I agree if the owner has more than a basic knowledge of how the auto works.
If not, then all the owner gets is information that he/she would not know
how to use. For example, if you ask 100 people what the most likely cause
of an evap control diagnostic trouble code, at least 99 won't have a clue
what you're talking about.
[color=blue]
> Personally, I think the service center should be required to write the OBD
> II Code on the service ticket so the consumer can check to see if the
> framis
> circuit, the doohicky and the whatsit valve are even related to the
> reported
> malfunction. The goal here is to disclose to the consumer what the service
> guys did, and why they did it. Since the service center is not required to
> write the code, then the owner/operator of an OBD II compliant vehicle
> should have a code reader in his garage, just like he would have a hammer
> and a pair of pliers. The consumer might not be able to use the knowledge
> he
> would gain from having the tool for anything other than asking if the
> doohicky and the whatsit valve are part of the framis circuit, then asking
> why the framis wasn't serviced when the code clearly said that was the
> problem.[/color]

Good idea, I agree. BTW, if you want the service departments to record the
DTC on the service ticket (known as an RO-repair order at Toyota dealers),
just ask and make sure the service advisor records your request on the RO.
The techs are supposed to record the DTC on the back of the hard copy
(service dept copy) of the RO so it is a simple matter to record it on the
customer copy.

I own an OBD II code scanner so I would just fix the problem myself.
[color=blue]
>
> Most of the codes are pretty specific, and there can't be very many other
> things beyond the framis circuit that can throw the framis circuit code.
> If
> there is something that can affect the framis circuit, then it will have a
> code of its own. Or, it will be a sub code of the framis circuit codes.
> For
> example, the framis circuit will have a failure and the code is a general
> framis code such as P0440, then there will be other codes that tell the
> precise section of the framis circuit, or that the particular part is open
> or shorted or otherwise out of range, in this case the code might be P0441
> or P0442, etc. (NOTE - I know the P0440 codes are the Evaporative Emission
> Control System, not a ficticious Framis Circuit.)
>
> In any case, the OP would be a much smarter consumer of vehicle
> maintenance
> services if he or she had an OBD II Code Reader that he owned or could use
> in the parking lot of the local parts store.
>[/color]
Again, I'm not so sure the information would actually be useful to most
consumers. For example, "too lean bank 1" does not tell the consumer what
is causing the engine to run lean. I saw a post that implied that the
customer thought that the engine was leaning over.
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply

On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 15:26:24 -0700, Jeff Strickland wrote:
[color=blue]
> Your car is fitted with an engine management system called OBD II (On Board
> Diagnostics, Level 2). This means you can buy a tool for about $100 (USD) --
> less if you shop on eBay or look around at the local auto parts stores --
> that plugs into a data port that is located along the bottom edge of the
> dash board in the area where your left leg is placed while you are driving.
>
> You can plug the code reader in, and in less than 30 seconds, you will know
> what made the Check Engine Light come on.
>
> The short answer to your question, shouldn't the reader have figure this out
> much faster? is a resounding YES. Now, it could have told the mechanic what
> made the light come on, but they spent 4 hours trying to isolate the
> offending sensor. I have to agree with you, I am uncomfortable with the $225
> bill to take a guess at what to do next.
>
> What you need to do is arm yourself with information. If you are in
> California, you can go to AutoZone stores -- I am not sure about Kragen --
> and they will allow you to use the code reader for free.[/color]

Well, if they do it in CA, and they do it in Mass, then they must do it
everywhere in between...
[color=blue]
> Give them your
> driver's license and you can use the tool in the parking lot, put the tool
> on your credit card and you can take it home for the weekend, then get a
> credit posted to your card when you return the tool. (If you use the tool in
> the parking lot, it's free, or you can take the tool home for the normal
> sales price, then get a full refund when you return it, making it free to
> use this way as well.) I am not sure how other states handle consumers
> having access to this tool, but in California, you have every right to learn
> what is wrong with your car BEFORE you hand it over to the repair shop. If
> you haven't got an AutoZone, then go to pretty much any auto parts store and
> ask if they have a Loaner Tool Program. If they do, then they should have
> the OBD II Code Reader. If you weren't aware, many of the national chain
> stores will let you used specialized tools for free.
>
>
>
>
>
> "gaus1" <gaus1@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:ldqre.95150$CR5.58001@bignews1.bellsouth.net...[color=green]
>> In my Toyota 4Runner, year 2000, 4WD, last Saturday an indicator light[/color]
> with[color=green]
>> the word "Check" and above it the shape of an engine turned on. Checking[/color]
> the[color=green]
>> owner's manual it recommended to take the car to a dealer as soon as
>> possible.
>>
>> Today I took it to the local dealer. They spent about 4 hours at a cost of[/color]
> $[color=green]
>> 225.00 to find out what was wrong. They came with the answer that the
>> odometer and speed control needed replacement, at who knows what[/color]
> additional[color=green]
>> cost, they will quote tomorrow because their parts supplier was already
>> closed.
>>
>> I am not sure if they as BSing me, but I feel very uncomfortable about the
>> whole affair. Shouldn't the electronic computerized diagnostic have
>> uncovered this immediately? Has any one out there had a similar[/color]
> experience?[color=green]
>> Any comments, suggestions?
>> Thank you.
>>
>> Gabe
>>
>>[/color][/color]

--
The Relentless Pursuit Of Conception...

On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:35:06 -0500, Ray O wrote:
[color=blue]
>
> "Jeff Strickland" <spamcatcher@yahoo.net> wrote in message
> news:t56dnZ3FhfMOxDLfRVn-vA@ez2.net...
>
> <snipped>
>
>[color=green]
>> You can plug the code reader in, and in less than 30 seconds, you will
>> know
>> what made the Check Engine Light come on.[/color]
>
> A popular misconception. A diagnostic trouble code and code reader will not
> tell you what made the malfunction indicator light come on, but it will tell
> you what circuit or system made the malfunction indicator light come on.
>
> Anyone that replaces components identified by a code scanner without
> actually checking to see whether the component is good or bad is lazy or
> incompetent.[/color]

I'll plead incompetence. Hell, if the Check light even comes on, I just
got out and buy a new O2 sensor!!!! (were talking 2 1985 Toyotas
here...the only other thing was the knock sensor became unplugged somehow...)
[color=blue]
>
> For example, in the OP's case, it could have been a loose connection to the
> speed sensor, a shorted or open wire between the speed sensor and the ECU, a
> faulty speed sensor, or a faulty ECU.
>
>[color=green]
>>
>> The short answer to your question, shouldn't the reader have figure this
>> out
>> much faster? is a resounding YES. Now, it could have told the mechanic
>> what
>> made the light come on, but they spent 4 hours trying to isolate the
>> offending sensor. I have to agree with you, I am uncomfortable with the
>> $225
>> bill to take a guess at what to do next.
>>
>> What you need to do is arm yourself with information. If you are in
>> California, you can go to AutoZone stores -- I am not sure about Kragen --
>> and they will allow you to use the code reader for free. Give them your
>> driver's license and you can use the tool in the parking lot, put the tool
>> on your credit card and you can take it home for the weekend, then get a
>> credit posted to your card when you return the tool. (If you use the tool
>> in
>> the parking lot, it's free, or you can take the tool home for the normal
>> sales price, then get a full refund when you return it, making it free to
>> use this way as well.) I am not sure how other states handle consumers
>> having access to this tool, but in California, you have every right to
>> learn
>> what is wrong with your car BEFORE you hand it over to the repair shop. If
>> you haven't got an AutoZone, then go to pretty much any auto parts store
>> and
>> ask if they have a Loaner Tool Program. If they do, then they should have
>> the OBD II Code Reader. If you weren't aware, many of the national chain
>> stores will let you used specialized tools for free.
>>[/color][/color]

--
The Relentless Pursuit Of Conception...

On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:02:30 -0700, Jeff Strickland wrote:
[color=blue]
>
> "Ray O" <rokigawa@tristarassociatesDOT.com> wrote in message
> news:ab4ab$42af5ba0$44a4a10d$18293@msgid.meganewsservers.com...[color=green]
>>
>> "Jeff Strickland" <spamcatcher@yahoo.net> wrote in message
>> news:t56dnZ3FhfMOxDLfRVn-vA@ez2.net...
>>
>> <snipped>
>>
>>[color=darkred]
>> > You can plug the code reader in, and in less than 30 seconds, you will
>> > know
>> > what made the Check Engine Light come on.[/color]
>>
>> A popular misconception. A diagnostic trouble code and code reader will[/color]
> not[color=green]
>> tell you what made the malfunction indicator light come on, but it will[/color]
> tell[color=green]
>> you what circuit or system made the malfunction indicator light come on.
>>
>> Anyone that replaces components identified by a code scanner without
>> actually checking to see whether the component is good or bad is lazy or
>> incompetent.
>>
>> For example, in the OP's case, it could have been a loose connection to[/color]
> the[color=green]
>> speed sensor, a shorted or open wire between the speed sensor and the ECU,[/color]
> a[color=green]
>> faulty speed sensor, or a faulty ECU.
>>
>>[/color]
>
> Agreed. One doesn't blindly replace the first thing that the reader tells
> them to, but they inspect that part and investigate the integrity of the
> connection.
>
> But, when the code reader says the framis circuit caused the error, then the
> owner has a reasonable question when he is handed a bill for the
> installation of a new doohicky, and a thorough cleaning of the whatsit
> valve. Unless these things are inline somewhere in the framis circuit, they
> ought not be on the service ticket.
>
> Any owner is smart to own a code reader for an OBD II compliant vehicle.
> More often than not, the reader will pinpoint the correct part. My strategy
> would be to list up the codes and reset them, then see if any of the listed
> codes repeat when the light comes on again. This is a good strategy for many
> of the codes, especially for the Evaproative Control System Malfunction
> codes - P0440 for example. This is the code that says the gas cap isn't
> sealed well. It really means that there is a leak in the Evap Cont Sys, but
> since the gas cap is frequently taken off and put back on, and the
> owner/operator can fit it incorrectly, then it usually means that the gas
> cap is not sealed. If the owner/operator resets the code, and takes care to
> properly fit the gas cap, then he or she will have a benchmark to have the
> hoses checked if the light comes back on and the code is P0440 again.
>
> Personally, I think the service center should be required to write the OBD
> II Code on the service ticket so the consumer can check to see if the framis
> circuit, the doohicky and the whatsit valve are even related to the reported
> malfunction. The goal here is to disclose to the consumer what the service
> guys did, and why they did it. Since the service center is not required to
> write the code, then the owner/operator of an OBD II compliant vehicle
> should have a code reader in his garage, just like he would have a hammer
> and a pair of pliers. The consumer might not be able to use the knowledge he
> would gain from having the tool for anything other than asking if the
> doohicky and the whatsit valve are part of the framis circuit, then asking
> why the framis wasn't serviced when the code clearly said that was the
> problem.
>
> Most of the codes are pretty specific, and there can't be very many other
> things beyond the framis circuit that can throw the framis circuit code. If
> there is something that can affect the framis circuit, then it will have a
> code of its own. Or, it will be a sub code of the framis circuit codes. For
> example, the framis circuit will have a failure and the code is a general
> framis code such as P0440, then there will be other codes that tell the
> precise section of the framis circuit, or that the particular part is open
> or shorted or otherwise out of range, in this case the code might be P0441
> or P0442, etc. (NOTE - I know the P0440 codes are the Evaporative Emission
> Control System, not a ficticious Framis Circuit.)[/color]

Whaddya mean, 'fictitious'? I just paid over $300 to have a framis
regulator installed!!!!
[color=blue]
>
> In any case, the OP would be a much smarter consumer of vehicle maintenance
> services if he or she had an OBD II Code Reader that he owned or could use
> in the parking lot of the local parts store.[/color]

--
The Relentless Pursuit Of Conception...

"hachiroku" <Trueno@ae86.gts> wrote in message
news:ED2se.8009$5s1.3169@trndny06...[color=blue]
> On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:35:06 -0500, Ray O wrote:
>[color=green]
>>
>> "Jeff Strickland" <spamcatcher@yahoo.net> wrote in message
>> news:t56dnZ3FhfMOxDLfRVn-vA@ez2.net...
>>
>> <snipped>
>>
>>[color=darkred]
>>> You can plug the code reader in, and in less than 30 seconds, you will
>>> know
>>> what made the Check Engine Light come on.[/color]
>>
>> A popular misconception. A diagnostic trouble code and code reader will
>> not
>> tell you what made the malfunction indicator light come on, but it will
>> tell
>> you what circuit or system made the malfunction indicator light come on.
>>
>> Anyone that replaces components identified by a code scanner without
>> actually checking to see whether the component is good or bad is lazy or
>> incompetent.[/color]
>
> I'll plead incompetence. Hell, if the Check light even comes on, I just
> got out and buy a new O2 sensor!!!! (were talking 2 1985 Toyotas
> here...the only other thing was the knock sensor became unplugged
> somehow...)
>[/color]

Hachi, no offense intended! I should have been a little clearer. The
"anyone" in my mind was someone who is taking money to diagnose and repair
the problem, a so-called pro. I wouldn't expect most DIY-ers to be able to
check whether a component or the circuit is functioning or not without a
manual, and since the component itself is often the culprit, replacing parts
without actually checking them is a reasonable move.

BTW, a knock sensor is just a piezo-electric crystal like the sparkers on
grills and lighters. When you compress the crystal, static electricity is
produced and if there is a path to ground nearby, a spark is produced. When
the engine pings, it compresses the crystal in the knock sensor, which
produces a spark. The ECU senses the presence of voltage when the spark
occurs and retards the timing. To check if a knock sensor is good, put a
volt meter on the wire coming out of the sensor, hit the block near the
sensor with a hammer, and see if the meter detects the flash of voltage.

I recommend doing this with 2 people - someone to whack the block and
someone to watch the meter (unless you have one of those fancy data
recording meters). If you try to whack the block while watching the meter
yourself, there is a slight risk of striking the knock sensor itself, which
busts the sensor housing and then you end up needing a new sensor anyway.
Destructive component testing sucks!
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply

"hachiroku" <Trueno@ae86.gts> wrote in message
news:ED2se.8009$5s1.3169@trndny06...[color=blue]
> On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:35:06 -0500, Ray O wrote:
>[color=green]
> >
> > "Jeff Strickland" <spamcatcher@yahoo.net> wrote in message
> > news:t56dnZ3FhfMOxDLfRVn-vA@ez2.net...
> >
> > <snipped>
> >
> >[color=darkred]
> >> You can plug the code reader in, and in less than 30 seconds, you will
> >> know
> >> what made the Check Engine Light come on.[/color]
> >
> > A popular misconception. A diagnostic trouble code and code reader will[/color][/color]
not[color=blue][color=green]
> > tell you what made the malfunction indicator light come on, but it will[/color][/color]
tell[color=blue][color=green]
> > you what circuit or system made the malfunction indicator light come on.
> >
> > Anyone that replaces components identified by a code scanner without
> > actually checking to see whether the component is good or bad is lazy[/color][/color]
or[color=blue][color=green]
> > incompetent.[/color]
>
> I'll plead incompetence. Hell, if the Check light even comes on, I just
> got out and buy a new O2 sensor!!!! (were talking 2 1985 Toyotas
> here...the only other thing was the knock sensor became unplugged[/color]
somehow...)[color=blue]
>[/color]

That's probably a reasonable strategy for an '85. but the '96 and later
models have a consumer-friendly computer. Well, as friendly as a computer
can be, I suppose.

"Jeff Strickland" <spamcatcher@yahoo.net> wrote in message
news:neydnfVLM5hPdyzfRVn-rA@ez2.net...[color=blue]
>
> "hachiroku" <Trueno@ae86.gts> wrote in message
> news:ED2se.8009$5s1.3169@trndny06...[color=green]
>> On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:35:06 -0500, Ray O wrote:
>>[color=darkred]
>> >
>> > "Jeff Strickland" <spamcatcher@yahoo.net> wrote in message
>> > news:t56dnZ3FhfMOxDLfRVn-vA@ez2.net...
>> >
>> > <snipped>
>> >
>> >
>> >> You can plug the code reader in, and in less than 30 seconds, you will
>> >> know
>> >> what made the Check Engine Light come on.
>> >
>> > A popular misconception. A diagnostic trouble code and code reader
>> > will[/color][/color]
> not[color=green][color=darkred]
>> > tell you what made the malfunction indicator light come on, but it will[/color][/color]
> tell[color=green][color=darkred]
>> > you what circuit or system made the malfunction indicator light come
>> > on.
>> >
>> > Anyone that replaces components identified by a code scanner without
>> > actually checking to see whether the component is good or bad is lazy[/color][/color]
> or[color=green][color=darkred]
>> > incompetent.[/color]
>>
>> I'll plead incompetence. Hell, if the Check light even comes on, I just
>> got out and buy a new O2 sensor!!!! (were talking 2 1985 Toyotas
>> here...the only other thing was the knock sensor became unplugged[/color]
> somehow...)[color=green]
>>[/color]
>
> That's probably a reasonable strategy for an '85. but the '96 and later
> models have a consumer-friendly computer. Well, as friendly as a computer
> can be, I suppose.
>[/color]

One could check trouble codes on an '85 with a paper clip - not exactly
special equipment, although I do keep one in my tool box for that purpose.

Newer vehicles require access to an OBD II code scanner, which means
purchasing one, a trip to a parts store, or a trip to a service facility.
It's nice to have the codes more readily available and to be able to pull
the codes without having to crawl under the dash.
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply

"Shouldn't the electronic computerized diagnostic have
uncovered this immediately? "

It's extremely difficult (read impossible) to develop a diagnostic
system that isolates exactly which part failed 100% of the time. This
requires the engineers to figure out, ahead of time, all the possible
million ways your car can break, then add monitors to detect the
million failures. Of course now you have a million monitors that can
break causing false failures, so now you have to have monitor your
monitors!

Most of the time the diagnostic will tell you generally what system
failed, could be the sensor failed, could be the computer that uses the
sensor failed, could be the wire that connects the sensor to the
computer broke, could be the monitor failed or could be some other
unrelated sensor failed which falsely caused another sensor to indicate
a failure.

So they might of been tracking this down or eating doughnuts for 4
hours, who knows.

gaus1 wrote:[color=blue]
> In my Toyota 4Runner, year 2000, 4WD, last Saturday an indicator light with
> the word "Check" and above it the shape of an engine turned on. Checking the
> owner's manual it recommended to take the car to a dealer as soon as
> possible.
>
> Today I took it to the local dealer. They spent about 4 hours at a cost of $
> 225.00 to find out what was wrong. They came with the answer that the
> odometer and speed control needed replacement, at who knows what additional
> cost, they will quote tomorrow because their parts supplier was already
> closed.
>[/color]

I am so sorry to hear that. It kind of sounds like you got beat. I
had the "check engine" light on in my Honda recently. Mechanic threw
that computer thing on it, and in less than an hour told me what was
wrong. He didn't even charge me... just told me to go find an OEM O2
sensor (which I found for $80USD at Pep Boys), and he slapped it in for
me for $100. Oh yeah that included an oil change.
[color=blue]
>
> I am not sure if they as BSing me, but I feel very uncomfortable about the
> whole affair.
>[/color]

People seem to have uncanny intuition about whether they're being taken
advantage of. Hopefully they at least gave you a receipt which
specifies the problem and required parts -- if not call them first
thing in the morning, have a pen handy, and ask what parts you need (oh
yeah don't forget to get the quote for parts / labor too, in detail).

I suggest you then take the information they gave you, and get on the
horn and shop around for at least 4 estimates. If the prospective
mechanics you call won't give you a price range on the phone, thank
them for their time and call the next one.

Hell, post the parts / labor detail here before you do make a final
decision. A _real_ mechanic can prolly jump in and give you better
advice then.
[color=blue]
>
> Shouldn't the electronic computerized diagnostic have
> uncovered this immediately? Has any one out there had a similar experience?
>[/color]

Sorry.. dunno (but it sure _seems_ like it, doesn't it?)
[color=blue]
>
> Any comments, suggestions?
> Thank you.
>
> Gabe[/color]

"Learning Richard" <learningrichard@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1119061399.651681.126430@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...[color=blue]
>
>
> gaus1 wrote:[color=green]
>> In my Toyota 4Runner, year 2000, 4WD, last Saturday an indicator light
>> with
>> the word "Check" and above it the shape of an engine turned on. Checking
>> the
>> owner's manual it recommended to take the car to a dealer as soon as
>> possible.
>>
>> Today I took it to the local dealer. They spent about 4 hours at a cost
>> of $
>> 225.00 to find out what was wrong. They came with the answer that the
>> odometer and speed control needed replacement, at who knows what
>> additional
>> cost, they will quote tomorrow because their parts supplier was already
>> closed.
>>[/color]
>
> I am so sorry to hear that. It kind of sounds like you got beat. I
> had the "check engine" light on in my Honda recently. Mechanic threw
> that computer thing on it, and in less than an hour told me what was
> wrong. He didn't even charge me... just told me to go find an OEM O2
> sensor (which I found for $80USD at Pep Boys), and he slapped it in for
> me for $100. Oh yeah that included an oil change.
>[/color]

Your mechanic took almost an hour to diagnose an O2 sensor? Unless the
sensor is in a really difficult to reach place, he should be able to plug in
the scan tool and check the sensor itself in about 15 minutes. Good thing
he didn't charge you!
[color=blue][color=green]
>>
>> I am not sure if they as BSing me, but I feel very uncomfortable about
>> the
>> whole affair.
>>[/color]
>
> People seem to have uncanny intuition about whether they're being taken
> advantage of. Hopefully they at least gave you a receipt which
> specifies the problem and required parts -- if not call them first
> thing in the morning, have a pen handy, and ask what parts you need (oh
> yeah don't forget to get the quote for parts / labor too, in detail).
>[/color]

Dealerships always itemize all of their charges.
[color=blue]
> I suggest you then take the information they gave you, and get on the
> horn and shop around for at least 4 estimates. If the prospective
> mechanics you call won't give you a price range on the phone, thank
> them for their time and call the next one.
>
> Hell, post the parts / labor detail here before you do make a final
> decision. A _real_ mechanic can prolly jump in and give you better
> advice then.
>[/color]

I doubt if aftermarket speed sensors are available so the parts will
probably be OEM.
[color=blue][color=green]
>>
>> Shouldn't the electronic computerized diagnostic have
>> uncovered this immediately? Has any one out there had a similar
>> experience?
>>[/color]
>
> Sorry.. dunno (but it sure _seems_ like it, doesn't it?)
>[/color]

As I previously posted, a scan tool only tells what circuit to check. Some
circuits, like an O2 sensor, are pretty easy to check while others, like
speed sensor circuits, are more difficult. The dashboard speed sensor is
usually difficult to reach and usually requires disassembly of the
dashboard, and the 2 sensors "talk" to each other.

By the way, many shops credit diagnosis time towards the labor charges - you
should ask if this is the case.
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply