How much is too much oil?

I got my car back from the shop with fresh oil in the engine. It's
very transparent on the dipstick, but still discernible. If we
consider the span from "H" to "L" on the dipstic as 100%, then the oil
level appears to be 30% over the high mark. Long ago, I read that
overfilling with oil is harmful because the crank shaft chops at the
oil in the crankcase and causes it to foam up, thus becoming a poor
lubricant. I don't know the accuracy of that, but I have read
warnings against overfilling in other places. How much is too mucH?
I don't want to hassle the shop to bleed off some oil if it's not too
much. I also don't know the accuracy of the oil level because it
seems that at that level, the oil level on the dipstick is not sharp;
instead, it sort of tapers off and becomes spotty.

I also find black sludge at the bottom few millimeters of the
dipstick, while all the rest of the oil is clear. Never saw that
combination before. I am told that there was no sludge at the bottom
of the oil pan. Is this something minor, to be ignored?

On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 02:25:52 -0400, Tercel Owner <Toyota@Tercel.com>
wrote:
[color=blue]
>I got my car back from the shop with fresh oil in the engine. It's
>very transparent on the dipstick, but still discernible. If we
>consider the span from "H" to "L" on the dipstic as 100%, then the oil
>level appears to be 30% over the high mark. Long ago, I read that
>overfilling with oil is harmful because the crank shaft chops at the
>oil in the crankcase and causes it to foam up, thus becoming a poor
>lubricant. I don't know the accuracy of that, but I have read
>warnings against overfilling in other places. How much is too mucH?
>I don't want to hassle the shop to bleed off some oil if it's not too
>much. I also don't know the accuracy of the oil level because it
>seems that at that level, the oil level on the dipstick is not sharp;
>instead, it sort of tapers off and becomes spotty.
>
>I also find black sludge at the bottom few millimeters of the
>dipstick, while all the rest of the oil is clear. Never saw that
>combination before. I am told that there was no sludge at the bottom
>of the oil pan. Is this something minor, to be ignored?[/color]


My '92 Corolla takes 3.5 quarts to change the oil.

Every time I get mine back from a dealer oil change it shows about
what you are seeing on your dip stick.

I figure they put in 4 quarts.

This has been going on every 3000 miles for 175,000 miles and
everything is just fine.

I would just consider it a little bonus...


--

Scott in Florida

In article <42b11b9e_2@x-privat.org>, [email]Toyota@Tercel.com[/email] says...[color=blue]
> I got my car back from the shop with fresh oil in the engine. It's
> very transparent on the dipstick, but still discernible. If we
> consider the span from "H" to "L" on the dipstic as 100%, then the oil
> level appears to be 30% over the high mark.
>[/color]

That is far too much, but.

How long did you leave the car to cool off and stand before checking.
After a run it can appear low because some of it is still in the engine,
but sometimes, it can also appear high after a very fast run/long/hot
run if you check it while it is still hot because as you say it foams
up, and also because oil expands slightly when hot.

check it again first thing in the morning after it has had chance to sit
overnight without running, then report back the level.

There are very few engines that need the oil level checking when hot,
although 1 I know of needs it checking when actually running.
--
"Sorry Sir, the meatballs are Orf"
The poster formerly known as Skodapilot.
[url]http://www.bouncing-czechs.com[/url]

> In article <42b11b9e_2@x-privat.org>, [email]Toyota@Tercel.com[/email] says...[color=blue][color=green]
>> I got my car back from the shop with fresh oil in the engine. It's
>> very transparent on the dipstick, but still discernible. If we
>> consider the span from "H" to "L" on the dipstic as 100%, then the
>> oil level appears to be 30% over the high mark.
>>[/color]
>In news:MPG.1d1b7b6e1a7d020b98b009@news.individual.net,
>Sleeker GT Phwoar <carl.robson@bouncing-czechs.com> typed:[/color]
[color=blue]
> That is far too much, but.
><snipped>>
> There are very few engines that need the oil level checking when hot,
> although 1 I know of needs it checking when actually running.[/color]

What engines need to be running to have the oil level checked?

Thanks,

Allen

On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 13:41:42 GMT, "Allen L." <invalid@invalid.org>
wrote:[color=blue][color=green]
>>In news:MPG.1d1b7b6e1a7d020b98b009@news.individual.net,
>>Sleeker GT Phwoar <carl.robson@bouncing-czechs.com> typed:[/color]
>[color=green]
>> That is far too much, but.
>><snipped>>
>> There are very few engines that need the oil level checking when hot,
>> although 1 I know of needs it checking when actually running.[/color]
>
>What engines need to be running to have the oil level checked?[/color]

Dry sump system - racing engines. You check the oil tank.

They have a 'scavenge' pump to suck all the oil out of the crankcase
and into a remote oil tank, and a pressure pump feeding from the oil
tank to the bearings.

That way they can have a large oil supply without a huge oil pan
hanging under the car to get damaged, and without the windage problems
of an oil overfill getting into the crank area and getting aerated.
In the middle of an endurance race it's easy and fast to dump in
another quart or two at a pit-stop.

--<< Bruce >>--

--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

"Tercel Owner" <Toyota@Tercel.com> wrote in message
news:42b11b9e_2@x-privat.org...[color=blue]
>I got my car back from the shop with fresh oil in the engine. It's
> very transparent on the dipstick, but still discernible. If we
> consider the span from "H" to "L" on the dipstic as 100%, then the oil
> level appears to be 30% over the high mark.[/color]

The span from "H" to "L" on the dipstick is not 100% of the crankcase
capacity. It varies from car to car but ususally indicates anywhere from 1
to 3 quarts low. In other words, even with a dry dipstick, there could be a
quart of oil remaining in the oil pan if the dipstick shows 3 quarts low.

Long ago, I read that[color=blue]
> overfilling with oil is harmful because the crank shaft chops at the
> oil in the crankcase and causes it to foam up, thus becoming a poor
> lubricant. I don't know the accuracy of that, but I have read
> warnings against overfilling in other places. How much is too mucH?
> I don't want to hassle the shop to bleed off some oil if it's not too
> much. I also don't know the accuracy of the oil level because it
> seems that at that level, the oil level on the dipstick is not sharp;
> instead, it sort of tapers off and becomes spotty.[/color]

If you look at the shape of the oil pan, it is shaped more like an in-ground
swimming pool than a bucket, The irregular shape means that level of oil
shown on the dipstick will not be linear.

Overfilling the crankcase can cause the oil to foam and then become a poor
lubricant. IMO, a half-quart over-filled isn't a problem, but if you have
more than a quart over-filled, then some should be drained out.
[color=blue]
>
> I also find black sludge at the bottom few millimeters of the
> dipstick, while all the rest of the oil is clear. Never saw that
> combination before. I am told that there was no sludge at the bottom
> of the oil pan. Is this something minor, to be ignored?[/color]

If you see black sludge on the bottom of the dipstick, then there is sludge
at the bottom of the oil pan or the oil was not thoroughly drained the last
time it was changed. Actual semi-solid sludge than you can wipe off the
dipstick is a bad sign. I would run some engine flush through, change the
oil, repeat the process, then drop the pan and thoroughly clean it, or if
you can't get the baffles clean, replace it. On the other hand, a little
discoloration or stain on the metal dipstick is not anything to worry about.

--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply

On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 13:41:42 +0000, Allen L. wrote:
[color=blue][color=green]
>> In article <42b11b9e_2@x-privat.org>, [email]Toyota@Tercel.com[/email] says...[color=darkred]
>>> I got my car back from the shop with fresh oil in the engine. It's
>>> very transparent on the dipstick, but still discernible. If we
>>> consider the span from "H" to "L" on the dipstic as 100%, then the
>>> oil level appears to be 30% over the high mark.
>>>[/color]
>>In news:MPG.1d1b7b6e1a7d020b98b009@news.individual.net,
>>Sleeker GT Phwoar <carl.robson@bouncing-czechs.com> typed:[/color]
>[color=green]
>> That is far too much, but.
>><snipped>>
>> There are very few engines that need the oil level checking when hot,
>> although 1 I know of needs it checking when actually running.[/color]
>
> What engines need to be running to have the oil level checked?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Allen[/color]

Wanna bet it's a Skoda?

--
The Relentless Pursuit Of Conception...

"Tercel Owner" wrote:[color=blue]
> I got my car back from the shop with fresh oil in the engine.
> It's
> very transparent on the dipstick, but still discernible. If
> we
> consider the span from "H" to "L" on the dipstic as 100%, then
> the oil
> level appears to be 30% over the high mark. Long ago, I read
> that
> overfilling with oil is harmful because the crank shaft chops
> at the
> oil in the crankcase and causes it to foam up, thus becoming a
> poor
> lubricant. I don't know the accuracy of that, but I have read
> warnings against overfilling in other places. How much is too
> mucH?
> I don't want to hassle the shop to bleed off some oil if it's
> not too
> much. I also don't know the accuracy of the oil level because
> it
> seems that at that level, the oil level on the dipstick is not
> sharp;
> instead, it sort of tapers off and becomes spotty.
>
> I also find black sludge at the bottom few millimeters of the
> dipstick, while all the rest of the oil is clear. Never saw
> that
> combination before. I am told that there was no sludge at the
> bottom
> of the oil pan. Is this something minor, to be ignored?[/color]

A extra cup or even pint is not going to break the bank here for a fre
reason. One oil foaming is not the issue it once was long ago and the
biggest reason you do not over fill is not because of the foaming
causing a lack of lubrication but because if you get a two or three
quarts in a small engine you can blow the seals out of the engine. I
have seen a few do that but I have never seen a engine damaged from it
otherwise and the amount you overfilled is of no concern at all
because there is a lot of reserve capacity built in. On a big V8 you
need to over fill by 3 or 4 quarts before you start have possible
problems with seals generally and a 1 qt over fill of them is of no
concern at all.

--
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Articles individually checked for conformance to usenet standards
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"Sleeker GT Phwoar" wrote:[color=blue]
>
>That is far too much.
>
>[/color]

You have got to be kidding!!! If they were that sensitive to oil level
there would be a lot of engines with problems geez! You are trying to
scare the guy for no reason. A 1/4 inch over the full mark (give or
take) is NOTHING!! A inch or more over full mark in that engine is
something to be a bit concerned about but not this amount.

--
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"Allen L." wrote:[color=blue][color=green]
>> In article <42b11b9e_2@x-privat.org>, [email]Toyota@Tercel.com[/email][/color]
>says...[color=green][color=darkred]
>>> I got my car back from the shop with fresh oil in the engine.[/color][/color]
> It’s[color=green][color=darkred]
>>> very transparent on the dipstick, but still discernible. If[/color][/color]
>we[color=green][color=darkred]
>>> consider the span from "H" to "L" on the dipstic as 100%,[/color][/color]
>then the[color=green][color=darkred]
>>> oil level appears to be 30% over the high mark.
>>>[/color]
>>In news:MPG.1d1b7b6e1a7d020b98b009@news.individual.net,
>>Sleeker GT Phwoar <carl.robson@bouncing-czechs.com> typed:[/color]
>[color=green]
>> That is far too much, but.
>><snipped>>
>> There are very few engines that need the oil level checking when[/color]
>hot,[color=green]
>> although 1 I know of needs it checking when actually running.[/color]
>
>What engines need to be running to have the oil level checked?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Allen[/color]

Yes, the only ones that I am aware of that can even be possibly
checked when running are dry sump engines and you check resevior
level.

--
Posted using the [url]http://www.autoforumz.com[/url] interface, at author's request
Articles individually checked for conformance to usenet standards
Topic URL: [url]http://www.autoforumz.com/Toyota-oil-ftopict124814.html[/url]
Visit Topic URL to contact author (reg. req'd). Report abuse: [url]http://www.autoforumz.com/eform.php?p=607932[/url]

Scott in Florida wrote:[color=blue]
> On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 02:25:52 -0400, Tercel Owner <Toyota@Tercel.com>
> wrote:[color=green]
>>I got my car back from the shop with fresh oil in the engine. It's
>>very transparent on the dipstick, but still discernible. If we
>>consider the span from "H" to "L" on the dipstic as 100%, then the
>>oil level appears to be 30% over the high mark. Long ago, I read
>>that overfilling with oil is harmful because the crank shaft chops
>>at the oil in the crankcase and causes it to foam up, thus becoming
>>a poor lubricant. I don't know the accuracy of that, but I have
>>read warnings against overfilling in other places. How much is too
>>mucH? I don't want to hassle the shop to bleed off some oil if it's
>>not too much. I also don't know the accuracy of the oil level
>>because it seems that at that level, the oil level on the dipstick
>>is not sharp; instead, it sort of tapers off and becomes spotty.
>>
>>I also find black sludge at the bottom few millimeters of the
>>dipstick, while all the rest of the oil is clear. Never saw that
>>combination before. I am told that there was no sludge at the
>>bottom of the oil pan. Is this something minor, to be ignored?[/color]
>
> My '92 Corolla takes 3.5 quarts to change the oil. Every time I get
> mine back from a dealer oil change it shows about what you are
> seeing on your dip stick. I figure they put in 4 quarts. This has
> been going on every 3000 miles for 175,000 miles and everything is
> just fine. I would just consider it a little bonus...[/color]

Nice to know. Thanks.

Tercel Owner

Scott in Florida wrote:[color=blue]
> On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 02:25:52 -0400, Tercel Owner <Toyota@Tercel.com>
> wrote:[color=green]
>>I got my car back from the shop with fresh oil in the engine. It's
>>very transparent on the dipstick, but still discernible. If we
>>consider the span from "H" to "L" on the dipstic as 100%, then the
>>oil level appears to be 30% over the high mark. Long ago, I read
>>that overfilling with oil is harmful because the crank shaft chops
>>at the oil in the crankcase and causes it to foam up, thus becoming
>>a poor lubricant. I don't know the accuracy of that, but I have
>>read warnings against overfilling in other places. How much is too
>>mucH? I don't want to hassle the shop to bleed off some oil if it's
>>not too much. I also don't know the accuracy of the oil level
>>because it seems that at that level, the oil level on the dipstick
>>is not sharp; instead, it sort of tapers off and becomes spotty.
>>
>>I also find black sludge at the bottom few millimeters of the
>>dipstick, while all the rest of the oil is clear. Never saw that
>>combination before. I am told that there was no sludge at the
>>bottom of the oil pan. Is this something minor, to be ignored?[/color]
>
> My '92 Corolla takes 3.5 quarts to change the oil. Every time I get
> mine back from a dealer oil change it shows about what you are
> seeing on your dip stick. I figure they put in 4 quarts. This has
> been going on every 3000 miles for 175,000 miles and everything is
> just fine. I would just consider it a little bonus...[/color]

Nice to know. Thanks.

Tercel Owner

Sleeker GT Phwoar wrote:[color=blue]
> In article <42b11b9e_2@x-privat.org>, [email]Toyota@Tercel.com[/email] says...
>[color=green]
>>I got my car back from the shop with fresh oil in the engine. It's
>>very transparent on the dipstick, but still discernible. If we
>>consider the span from "H" to "L" on the dipstic as 100%, then the
>>oil level appears to be 30% over the high mark.[/color]
>
> That is far too much, but. How long did you leave the car to cool
> off and stand before checking. After a run it can appear low
> because some of it is still in the engine, but sometimes, it can
> also appear high after a very fast run/long/hot run if you check it
> while it is still hot because as you say it foams up, and also
> because oil expands slightly when hot. check it again first thing
> in the morning after it has had chance to sit overnight without
> running, then report back the level.[/color]

I checked it both 5.5 minutes after it cooled down, as well as 2 hours
after. The results were similar.

SnoMan wrote:[color=blue]
> "Sleeker GT Phwoar" wrote:[color=green]
>>That is far too much.[/color]
> You have got to be kidding!!! If they were that sensitive to oil level
> there would be a lot of engines with problems geez! You are trying to
> scare the guy for no reason. A 1/4 inch over the full mark (give or
> take) is NOTHING!! A inch or more over full mark in that engine is
> something to be a bit concerned about but not this amount.[/color]

The whole range from High to Low is what I've designated as 100%.
It's about 1.5 inches. So 30% over is about 0.45 inches, which is
more than than the acceptable 1/4inch and less than the unacceptable
1 inch.

Ray O wrote:[color=blue]
> "Tercel Owner" <Toyota@Tercel.com> wrote:[color=green]
>>I got my car back from the shop with fresh oil in the engine. It's
>>very transparent on the dipstick, but still discernible. If we
>>consider the span from "H" to "L" on the dipstic as 100%, then the
>>oil level appears to be 30% over the high mark.[/color]
>
> The span from "H" to "L" on the dipstick is not 100% of the
> crankcase capacity. It varies from car to car but ususally
> indicates anywhere from 1 to 3 quarts low. In other words, even
> with a dry dipstick, there could be a quart of oil remaining in the
> oil pan if the dipstick shows 3 quarts low.[/color]

In the last used engine, I brought the oil level from Low to High
with one quart (about 1L). This is different used engine, which my
mechanic put in because the 1st one lost oil at well above the
rate that he considered acceptable. But I assume it is similar, if
not the same design.
[color=blue]
> If you look at the shape of the oil pan, it is shaped more like an
> in-ground swimming pool than a bucket, The irregular shape means
> that level of oil shown on the dipstick will not be linear.[/color]

I suspected that. The last engine was losing oil, and a plot of oil
level with mileage was not a straight line going down. Loss seemed to
accelerate as the level approached the Low mark, which means the oil
pan gets narrower with depth, at least at the levels measured by the
dipstick. I realize that the rate of loss depends on the kind of
driving done, but these nonlinearities were repeatable i.e. after
topping off the oil to High, the tracked oil loss followed a similar
nonlinear loss curve.
[color=blue]
> Overfilling the crankcase can cause the oil to foam and then become
> a poor lubricant. IMO, a half-quart over-filled isn't a problem,
> but if you have more than a quart over-filled, then some should be
> drained out.[/color]

That's good to hear. I'm hoping that 30% over the High mark is
roughly 0.3L over the High mark, even though I know that the oil
pan is wider at the higher levels. Maybe in the worse case, it
represents 0.5L, which is still OK by your half-quart figure.
(1L is about 1 quart).
[color=blue][color=green]
>>I also find black sludge at the bottom few millimeters of the
>>dipstick, while all the rest of the oil is clear. Never saw that
>>combination before. I am told that there was no sludge at the
>>bottom of the oil pan. Is this something minor, to be ignored?[/color]
>
> If you see black sludge on the bottom of the dipstick, then there is
> sludge at the bottom of the oil pan or the oil was not thoroughly
> drained the last time it was changed. Actual semi-solid sludge than
> you can wipe off the dipstick is a bad sign. I would run some
> engine flush through, change the oil, repeat the process, then drop
> the pan and thoroughly clean it, or if you can't get the baffles
> clean, replace it. On the other hand, a little discoloration or
> stain on the metal dipstick is not anything to worry about.[/color]

It is quite wipable, and quite distinct from the almost transparent
new oil. But my mechanic said he checked for sludge on the bottom and
found none. I still tend to think of him as frank and forthright,
despite past discrepancies (which seem to be within normal human error
or variance, the more I think about it).

There's 2 ways I can interpret your description of semi-solid sludge.
On one hand, I think you mean that semi-solid sludge that is pliable
enough to be wiped away is worse than more solid sludge which sticks
like clay. I suspect this is not what you mean. On the other hand,
you might mean that semi-solid sludge that is viscous enough to
maintain its sludgy consistency on the paper towel is worse than very
fluid sludge. This seems to make more sense because it means you're
saying sludgier is worse. It also seems to match your last sentence
about discoloration on the dipstick. If this is the case, I'm
relieved because it does seem to be quite fluid. It would also explain
why my mechanic says there is no sludge - because it's actually just
old oil.

I must admit though, it's puzzling why the old oil didn't mix with the
fresh oil after driving for approximately 7km (about 5 miles), with
the oil being pumped up to the head and flowing back down. It is all
the more baffling when one considers that the oil showing on the
dipstick is the top 1L of oil in the pan. If the capacity is 3L, for
example, then there is still 2L in the engine even when the oil is at
the Low mark on the dipstick. I would've expected the gunky oil to be
at the bottom of the pan (assuming that there is some mysterious
reason why it didn't mix).

About engine flush, I think I'll try to achieve the same cleaning
effect by changing the oil more frequently than necessary. I've
read mixed opinions about engine flush, and it's hard to go wrong
by using the more gradual cleaning that comes with frequent oil
changes.

Thanks again for your clear explanations.

Tercel Owner

P.S. For this 2nd used engine, my mechanic said he had to change the
rear main seals because they leaked. In another thread, someone
mentioned that these seals normally last forever, and only leak due to
neglect of oil changes. I'm hoping that if this is true, then there
are no further problems due to such neglect.