Toyota did a bad job on inspection

My year 200 Camry was crashed because the brake got wet and
lost the capability to brake before a red light in a rainy
day. The front brakes and rotors were replaced in December,
2003. On a recent maintenance service in March, Toyota
Dealer performed "Emergency Brake Adjustment" as it states
on its sheet. I don't get it how Toyota technician didn't
find anything wrong with the brake.

"Smurf" <Smurf@Org.com> wrote in message
news:l0n8b1h4o8urqht93eqitm284hktgcl0g6@4ax.com...[color=blue]
> My year 200 Camry was crashed because the brake got wet and
> lost the capability to brake before a red light in a rainy
> day. The front brakes and rotors were replaced in December,
> 2003. On a recent maintenance service in March, Toyota
> Dealer performed "Emergency Brake Adjustment" as it states
> on its sheet. I don't get it how Toyota technician didn't
> find anything wrong with the brake.
>[/color]

That's not a bad lifespan to have a car last over 1800 years.

But seriously folks, don't assume a mechanical defect? Disc brake rotors are
out in the open and get wet from rain splash when the car is parked. Water
on the rotors can cause the pads to hydroplane and braking force is
diminished. If a little time passes and surface rust forms on the rotors,
the brakes can be more grabby and stopping distance for the same pedal
effort actually shortens. Whenever a car is first driven after being parked
in the rain, a little judicious brake application early will dry water
and/or scrub off the rust. In normal driving, disc rotation does a pretty
good job of keeping the small amount of water that can get by the splash
shield from staying on the disc.

Due to weight transfer to the front on deceleration and having more weight
on the front of most cars due to engine location, the front brakes provide
most of the stopping power. E brake adjustment only involves the rear wheels
at most and is often just done at the handle to establish free play. Anyhow,
there probably was no defect to see.

Hopefully, your owners manual should have some information about getting the
brakes back to normal after a rainstorm. If not, that would be a an error on
Toyota's part. Brake testing after being parked in the rain is something
that needs to be done on any disc equipped car until the force required
retuns to normal.

Pat.

Pat
I've never heard of brake disk pads hydroplaning, can you please explain?
tnx

--

73
Hank WD5JFR
"Greywolf" <greywolfin45@*spamisbad*sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:rEZse.3451$aa2.65@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...[color=blue]
> "Smurf" <Smurf@Org.com> wrote in message
> news:l0n8b1h4o8urqht93eqitm284hktgcl0g6@4ax.com...[color=green]
>> My year 200 Camry was crashed because the brake got wet and
>> lost the capability to brake before a red light in a rainy
>> day. The front brakes and rotors were replaced in December,
>> 2003. On a recent maintenance service in March, Toyota
>> Dealer performed "Emergency Brake Adjustment" as it states
>> on its sheet. I don't get it how Toyota technician didn't
>> find anything wrong with the brake.
>>[/color]
>
> That's not a bad lifespan to have a car last over 1800 years.
>
> But seriously folks, don't assume a mechanical defect? Disc brake rotors
> are out in the open and get wet from rain splash when the car is parked.
> Water on the rotors can cause the pads to hydroplane and braking force is
> diminished. If a little time passes and surface rust forms on the rotors,
> the brakes can be more grabby and stopping distance for the same pedal
> effort actually shortens. Whenever a car is first driven after being
> parked in the rain, a little judicious brake application early will dry
> water and/or scrub off the rust. In normal driving, disc rotation does a
> pretty good job of keeping the small amount of water that can get by the
> splash shield from staying on the disc.
>
> Due to weight transfer to the front on deceleration and having more weight
> on the front of most cars due to engine location, the front brakes provide
> most of the stopping power. E brake adjustment only involves the rear
> wheels at most and is often just done at the handle to establish free
> play. Anyhow, there probably was no defect to see.
>
> Hopefully, your owners manual should have some information about getting
> the brakes back to normal after a rainstorm. If not, that would be a an
> error on Toyota's part. Brake testing after being parked in the rain is
> something that needs to be done on any disc equipped car until the force
> required retuns to normal.
>
> Pat.
>[/color]

On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 17:44:01 GMT, Smurf <Smurf@Org.com> wrote:
[color=blue]
>My year 200 Camry was crashed because the brake got wet and
>lost the capability to brake before a red light in a rainy
>day.[/color]

Your problem was the lack of braking ability those second century
Camry's had. ;)


------------------------------------------------
The DNC - Building a bridge to the 20th Century.

On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 18:41:41 +0000, Henry Kolesnik wrote:
[color=blue]
> Pat
> I've never heard of brake disk pads hydroplaning, can you please explain?
> tnx[/color]


They get wet. The water reduces friction. You step on the brake and the
water acts as a lubricant between the pads and the rotor.

Good idea, when driving in particularly wet weather, to step on the brake
once in a while to dry them out, esp in torrential downpours or after
driving through large puddles.

You've never had this happen before? i have noticed in all the cars I have
owned, some ARE more succeptable to this than others.

Why wasn't the obvious question asked...How fast was the driver going for
the current weather conditions? and, Was he trying to run the yellow light
but got caught on the red, then wanted to stop because of on coming traffic,
but couldn't?
Sounds more like better judgment is needed instead of blaming the cars
performance.

"Eric Dreher" <ericd@cox.nét> wrote in message
news:68r8b15hl12f5gvmr03uvjcgcqaqkavued@4ax.com...[color=blue]
> On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 17:44:01 GMT, Smurf <Smurf@Org.com> wrote:
>[color=green]
>>My year 200 Camry was crashed because the brake got wet and
>>lost the capability to brake before a red light in a rainy
>>day.[/color]
>
> Your problem was the lack of braking ability those second century
> Camry's had. ;)
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------
> The DNC - Building a bridge to the 20th Century.[/color]

Hydroplaning has little to do with friction. It's a phenomenon where a tire
running above the critical speed climbs up on the water in front of it
because the water can't move away fast enough and the tire climbs on the
water so to speak and hydroplanes. Grooves in the road and tires help to
minimize hydroplaning and I think if you could increase the weight of the
car it would help but you can't do that in motion. In a wet braking system
as more pressure is applied brake pads can squeeze out any water and the
heat created will evaporate any water.

--

73
Hank WD5JFR
"hachiroku" <hachiroku@Trueno.GTS> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.06.18.19.19.21.488075@Trueno.GTS...[color=blue]
> On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 18:41:41 +0000, Henry Kolesnik wrote:
>[color=green]
>> Pat
>> I've never heard of brake disk pads hydroplaning, can you please
>> explain?
>> tnx[/color]
>
>
> They get wet. The water reduces friction. You step on the brake and the
> water acts as a lubricant between the pads and the rotor.
>
> Good idea, when driving in particularly wet weather, to step on the brake
> once in a while to dry them out, esp in torrential downpours or after
> driving through large puddles.
>
> You've never had this happen before? i have noticed in all the cars I have
> owned, some ARE more succeptable to this than others.[/color]

"Henry Kolesnik" <kolesnik@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:ww0te.2282$Nz2.799@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...[color=blue]
> Hydroplaning has little to do with friction. It's a phenomenon where a
> tire running above the critical speed climbs up on the water in front of
> it because the water can't move away fast enough and the tire climbs on
> the water so to speak and hydroplanes. Grooves in the road and tires help
> to minimize hydroplaning and I think if you could increase the weight of
> the car it would help but you can't do that in motion. In a wet braking
> system as more pressure is applied brake pads can squeeze out any water
> and the heat created will evaporate any water.[/color]

Hydroplaning occurs when any fast moving object is lifted to the surface of
water. Tires over water is just one example. Boats are often made with
planing hulls for more speed to get most of the hull on top of the water
rather than pushing it aside. Brake pads also are prevented from touching
the rotor by the film of water. The film is very small and quickly pushed
aside and boiled off by a light brake application until the proper feel is
restored. Do that when first driving after a period of precipitation or even
a dewy morning and the brakes will work properly when needed.

Rotors are sometimes cross drilled or slotted to lighten the rotor, help
cool it, and to improve wet weather braking and racing condition braking
where pad outgassing can occur. Do a search on brake rotors and hydroplaning
and you'll see plenty of examples. Hydroplaning pads on wet rotors has a lot
to do with friction as it results in thin film boundary lubrication..

Pat

On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 21:39:40 GMT, "Henry Kolesnik"
<kolesnik@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
[color=blue]
>Hydroplaning has little to do with friction. It's a phenomenon where a tire
>running above the critical speed climbs up on the water in front of it
>because the water can't move away fast enough and the tire climbs on the
>water so to speak and hydroplanes. Grooves in the road and tires help to
>minimize hydroplaning and I think if you could increase the weight of the
>car it would help but you can't do that in motion.[/color]

Sure you can - the weight transfer forward on braking moves a large
percentage of the car's weight onto the front wheels.

But if you are driving in several inches of water, you still have a
problem with hydroplaning and traction, as the tire grooves try to
move out the water and get a good rubber to pavement friction
interface to brake with. If the brakes lock, then you aren't
squirting the water in motion, you are pushing a wave. It might not
be exactly technically hydroplaning, but the effect is the same.
[color=blue]
> In a wet braking system
>as more pressure is applied brake pads can squeeze out any water and the
>heat created will evaporate any water.[/color]

Right - but it still takes up to a second to get soggy front disc
pads and rotors dried and working, and the delay is very noticeable.

Obviously you haven't driven a car with four wheel drum brakes
lately to remember the drawbacks of that system. If the shoes get
soaked and there's a film of water inside the drum, they can take
several seconds (up to 10) to get fully dried out and start giving you
effective braking.

And when you are driving at freeway speeds, 5 to 10 seconds before
the brakes decide to cooperate and kick in is an eternity. Then they
decide to start working one at a time and it's spin catching time,
spinning the steering wheel lock-to-lock a few times... Been There,
Done That, and I can Gua-Ron-Tee it is not fun - you're too darned
busy trying to not hit anything.

--<< Bruce >>--

--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 21:39:40 +0000, Henry Kolesnik wrote:
[color=blue]
> Hydroplaning has little to do with friction. It's a phenomenon where a tire
> running above the critical speed climbs up on the water in front of it
> because the water can't move away fast enough and the tire climbs on the
> water so to speak and hydroplanes. Grooves in the road and tires help to
> minimize hydroplaning and I think if you could increase the weight of the
> car it would help but you can't do that in motion. In a wet braking system
> as more pressure is applied brake pads can squeeze out any water and the
> heat created will evaporate any water.[/color]

OK...We're talking two different things here. If he hit the brakes, and
they GRABBED but he still skidded then obviously that's the car
hydroplaning on the surface of the road. Even if it wasn't raining very
hard, or had just started raining in particular, then grease, oil and dirt
may have risen to the top of the road surface and caused slippry
conditions. This is different from hydroplaning, when the speed of the
vehicle combines with lift and perhaps worn tires and the tire rides on a
cushion of water.

From the OP's description and the mention of 'hydroplaning brake pads', I
thought his brakes had no friction, which used to happen to me in a 240SX.

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 00:26:00 GMT, Hachiroku
<Trueno@ae86.gts> wrote:
[color=blue]
>On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 21:39:40 +0000, Henry Kolesnik wrote:
>[color=green]
>> Hydroplaning has little to do with friction. It's a phenomenon where a tire
>> running above the critical speed climbs up on the water in front of it
>> because the water can't move away fast enough and the tire climbs on the
>> water so to speak and hydroplanes. Grooves in the road and tires help to
>> minimize hydroplaning and I think if you could increase the weight of the
>> car it would help but you can't do that in motion. In a wet braking system
>> as more pressure is applied brake pads can squeeze out any water and the
>> heat created will evaporate any water.[/color]
>
>OK...We're talking two different things here. If he hit the brakes, and
>they GRABBED but he still skidded then obviously that's the car
>hydroplaning on the surface of the road. Even if it wasn't raining very
>hard, or had just started raining in particular, then grease, oil and dirt
>may have risen to the top of the road surface and caused slippry
>conditions. This is different from hydroplaning, when the speed of the
>vehicle combines with lift and perhaps worn tires and the tire rides on a
>cushion of water.
>
>From the OP's description and the mention of 'hydroplaning brake pads', I
>thought his brakes had no friction, which used to happen to me in a 240SX.[/color]

There was no braking at all. The tires didn't skid on the
road. I tried brake it twice. The car just moved ahead as
if my foot is on the accelerator.

"Smurf" <Smurf@Org.com> wrote in message
news:l0n8b1h4o8urqht93eqitm284hktgcl0g6@4ax.com...[color=blue]
> My year 200 Camry was crashed because the brake got wet and
> lost the capability to brake before a red light in a rainy
> day. The front brakes and rotors were replaced in December,
> 2003. On a recent maintenance service in March, Toyota
> Dealer performed "Emergency Brake Adjustment" as it states
> on its sheet. I don't get it how Toyota technician didn't
> find anything wrong with the brake.
>[/color]
An emergency brake adjustment has nothing to do with your service brakes
(the ones operated by the brake pedal.)

You did not mention whether you have rear drum brakes or disc brakes,
condition of the rear brakes, whether you have an automatic or manual
transmission, the condition of your tires (tread remaining and air
pressure), whether you have ABS and if it activated, how much water was on
the road, road surface and coefficient of friction, how long it had been
raining, how long it has been since the area where the accident occurred had
a heavy rain, vehicle speed when brakes were applied, distance traveled from
brake application to whatever you crashed into, impact speed, whether the
vehicle traveled in a straight line or not, what typed of marks your tires
left in the road, the condition of your brake light filaments, whether the
brake pedal dropped to the floor or felt spongy, your driving experience,
etc.

As you can see there is a huge number of variables that affect stopping
distance, and any explanations you get in this forum will probably be
uninformed guesses unless the poster has experience reconstructing accidents
and has the information I listed above.

On a rainy day, brakes will get wet, tires will have less traction, and
roads will be a lot more slippery right after it starts raining than if it
has been raining all day. Since Toyota was not making cars in the year
200, I'm assuming that your Camry was built some time after 1999. Modern
brake systems are very reliable, and of the dozens of vehicles I checked out
where people claimed the brakes failed, NONE exhibited any signs of brake
failure, with the opinions of the investigating police department and
insurance companies concurring that operator error was the cause. Believe
me, if your insurance company thought that the vehicle was defective and
they can recover some of their costs, they will pursue it.
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply

"Smurf" <Smurf@org.com> wrote in message
news:63m9b1lbm4li7tteaomgt8npbgmulueesn@4ax.com...[color=blue]
> On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 00:26:00 GMT, Hachiroku
> <Trueno@ae86.gts> wrote:
>[color=green]
>>On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 21:39:40 +0000, Henry Kolesnik wrote:
>>[color=darkred]
>>> Hydroplaning has little to do with friction. It's a phenomenon where a
>>> tire
>>> running above the critical speed climbs up on the water in front of it
>>> because the water can't move away fast enough and the tire climbs on
>>> the
>>> water so to speak and hydroplanes. Grooves in the road and tires help to
>>> minimize hydroplaning and I think if you could increase the weight of
>>> the
>>> car it would help but you can't do that in motion. In a wet braking
>>> system
>>> as more pressure is applied brake pads can squeeze out any water and the
>>> heat created will evaporate any water.[/color]
>>
>>OK...We're talking two different things here. If he hit the brakes, and
>>they GRABBED but he still skidded then obviously that's the car
>>hydroplaning on the surface of the road. Even if it wasn't raining very
>>hard, or had just started raining in particular, then grease, oil and dirt
>>may have risen to the top of the road surface and caused slippry
>>conditions. This is different from hydroplaning, when the speed of the
>>vehicle combines with lift and perhaps worn tires and the tire rides on a
>>cushion of water.
>>
>>From the OP's description and the mention of 'hydroplaning brake pads', I
>>thought his brakes had no friction, which used to happen to me in a 240SX.[/color]
>
> There was no braking at all. The tires didn't skid on the
> road. I tried brake it twice. The car just moved ahead as
> if my foot is on the accelerator.[/color]

Unless there is evidence of massive brake failure, like an empty master
cylinder, you were pressing on the accelerator, not the brake pedal. This
is an error that even experienced drivers make.
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply

"Ray O" <rokigawa@tristarassociatesDOT.com> wrote in message
news:7c4a3$42b50943$180fead6$24467@msgid.meganewsservers.com...[color=blue]
> ...you were pressing on the accelerator, not the brake pedal. This is an
> error that even experienced drivers make.[/color]

I'd add that its an error that experienced but still incompetant drivers
make.

Stewart DIBBS

Ray O wrote:
[color=blue]
> "Smurf" <Smurf@org.com> wrote in message
> news:63m9b1lbm4li7tteaomgt8npbgmulueesn@4ax.com...
>[color=green]
>>On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 00:26:00 GMT, Hachiroku
>><Trueno@ae86.gts> wrote:
>>
>>[color=darkred]
>>>On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 21:39:40 +0000, Henry Kolesnik wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Hydroplaning has little to do with friction. It's a phenomenon where a
>>>>tire
>>>>running above the critical speed climbs up on the water in front of it
>>>>because the water can't move away fast enough and the tire climbs on
>>>>the
>>>>water so to speak and hydroplanes. Grooves in the road and tires help to
>>>>minimize hydroplaning and I think if you could increase the weight of
>>>>the
>>>>car it would help but you can't do that in motion. In a wet braking
>>>>system
>>>>as more pressure is applied brake pads can squeeze out any water and the
>>>>heat created will evaporate any water.
>>>>
>>>OK...We're talking two different things here. If he hit the brakes, and
>>>they GRABBED but he still skidded then obviously that's the car
>>>hydroplaning on the surface of the road. Even if it wasn't raining very
>>>hard, or had just started raining in particular, then grease, oil and dirt
>>>may have risen to the top of the road surface and caused slippry
>>>conditions. This is different from hydroplaning, when the speed of the
>>>vehicle combines with lift and perhaps worn tires and the tire rides on a
>>>cushion of water.
>>>
>>>
>>>From the OP's description and the mention of 'hydroplaning brake pads', I[/color]
>>[color=darkred]
>>>thought his brakes had no friction, which used to happen to me in a 240SX.
>>>[/color]
>>There was no braking at all. The tires didn't skid on the
>>road. I tried brake it twice. The car just moved ahead as
>>if my foot is on the accelerator.
>>[/color]
>
> Unless there is evidence of massive brake failure, like an empty master
> cylinder, you were pressing on the accelerator, not the brake pedal. This
> is an error that even experienced drivers make.
>[/color]

Audi had the same issue. Driver swore they were standing on the brake
and the car kept accelerating - they were standing on the gas. Audi
took the wrong approach and called the drivers idiots, which ruined Audi
reputation. This is not happen in the Audi with manual transmission,
only automatics. Seem it takes more skill to drive a manual, enough
skill to not make this mistake. Saab, by design, had the brake pedal
right in front of the right foot. You had to shift your foot to the
right to find the gas pedal. In a panic where you just shoved your
right foot forward, you would find the brake. Toyota should take a
public relations lesson from Audi and not blame the driver.