Re: How much is too much oil?

Ray O wrote:[color=blue]
>"Tercel Owner" <Toyota@Tercel.com> wrote:[color=green]
>>Ray O wrote:[color=darkred]
>>>"Tercel Owner" <Toyota@Tercel.com> wrote:
>>>>I...find black sludge at the bottom few millimeters of the
>>>>dipstick, while all the rest of the oil is clear. Never saw that
>>>>combination before. I am told that there was no sludge at the
>>>>bottom of the oil pan.
>>>
>>>If you see black sludge on the bottom of the dipstick, then there is
>>>sludge at the bottom of the oil pan or the oil was not thoroughly
>>>drained the last time it was changed. Actual semi-solid sludge than
>>>you can wipe off the dipstick is a bad sign. I would run some
>>>engine flush through, change the oil, repeat the process, then drop
>>>the pan and thoroughly clean it, or if you can't get the baffles
>>>clean, replace it. On the other hand, a little discoloration or
>>>stain on the metal dipstick is not anything to worry about.[/color]
>>
>>It is quite wipable, and quite distinct from the almost transparent
>>new oil. But my mechanic said he checked for sludge on the bottom and
>>found none.[/color]
>
> A dipstick will naturally get darker with age, almost like a stain.
> I wouldn't worry to much about that.[/color]

Just to clarify, it's not actually the dipstick that is darkening, it
is residue on the bottom of the dipstick, which can be wiped away. It
occured to me that it could be just crud on the walls of the
"scabbard" in which the dipstick rests. Maybe from having the engine
sit on the shelf for too long. I assume that used engines sit on the
shelf without oil in them, so this black stuff might be dried out oil
residue. I'll see if it depends on how I pull the dipstick out
tomorrow (in daylight).
[color=blue][color=green]
>>it seem[s] to be quite fluid. It would also explain why my mechanic
>>says there is no sludge - because it's actually just old oil.[/color]
>
> The thicker the sludge, the bigger the problem. A sludge that is viscous
> enough to flow can be flushed out with oil changes when the engine is hot.
> A more solid sludge with the consistency of putty means disassembling the
> engine to get it out.
>
> If the sludge has the same viscosicty as the oil and just seems like dark
> oil, that is notmal and nothing to worry about.[/color]

I said it was wipable, I'll take a closer look in daylight. It may
actually be thicker, but it might seem very fluid because there is so
little of it. If it was dried out oil residue on the interior walls
of the dipstick "scabbard", then I expect it to be more sludgy (just
instinct, not sure if that would correpsond to reality).
[color=blue][color=green]
>>...it's puzzling why the old oil didn't mix with
>>the fresh oil after driving for approximately 7km (about 5 miles),
>>with the oil being pumped up to the head and flowing back down. It
>>is all the more baffling when one considers that the oil showing on
>>the dipstick is the top 1L of oil in the pan. If the capacity is
>>3L, for example, then there is still 2L in the engine even when the
>>oil is at the Low mark on the dipstick. I would've expected the
>>gunky oil to be at the bottom of the pan (assuming that there is
>>some mysterious reason why it didn't mix).[/color]
>
> Maybe someone added an oil additive or thickening agent. That stuff
> has the consistency of honey and takes a while to mix with the oil.
> I'm not a fan of oil additives because good quality motor oil should
> be enough.[/color]

It is possible, but he didn't say anything about an additive. I took
a whiff of the oil and it smells a bit like gasoline. Maybe that's
normal. I'll purchase some fresh oil to compare smells. If the
engine doesn't burn oil, I'll probably end up discarding the bought
oil without using it; some googling as shown me that oil should not
be kept or used if you can't remember when you opened the container.

Even if he added stuff, though, it is odd that it would float around
the 1quart depth beneath the surface of the oil in the pan, and be
crud-black. For the moment, I'm inclined to suspect crud on the
interior of the dipstick scabbard.
[color=blue][color=green]
>>About engine flush, I think I'll try to achieve the same cleaning
>>effect by changing the oil more frequently than necessary. I've
>>read mixed opinions about engine flush, and it's hard to go wrong by
>>using the more gradual cleaning that comes with frequent oil
>>changes.[/color]
>
> Frequent oil changes is better for your engine than flushes. I
> consider flushes more of a last-ditch resort than "normal"
> maintenance.[/color]

Yes, I heard that removing the crud can cause problems, and my
mechanic agrees. Seals may start leaking, and crud removed from the
inside rim of the piston rings (where they seat themselves in the
grooves) may cause them not to scrap the cylinder walls as well --
especially if the rings are cracked. This is besides the possibility
that crud comes off in large quantities and plug up some oil channels.
[color=blue][color=green]
>>P.S. For this 2nd used engine, my mechanic said he had to change
>>the rear main seals because they leaked. In another thread, someone
>>mentioned that these seals normally last forever, and only leak due
>>to neglect of oil changes. I'm hoping that if this is true, then
>>there are no further problems due to such neglect.[/color]
>
> Front and rear seals will get hard if the engine was in a boneyard
> for a while. The best way to tell the condition of an engine is to
> remove the oil pan and inspect the pan and remove the valve cover
> and inspect the heads. If they are OK, then the seals got hard from
> sitting dry for a long time.[/color]

I may try that yet, just not confident enough to do that right away.
And having a place to do it is a bit of a problem. I'm even
scratching my head to think of a place where I can put the car up on
jack stands without raising eyebrows, preferrably without much traffic
(don't want the car bumped with me under it).

From your comment about front & rear seals drying out, I assume that
either they empty out the oil prior to boneyarding it, or the oil
level in the pan doesn't come as far up as the front & rear seals.
Emptying it out seems to make more sense to me.

Having driven the car around for a few days with this 2nd used engine,
I'm finding tremendous oil smells entering the cabin, much more so
than the 1st one. The strange thing is that I don't recall such
strong oil smell on the day of picking up the car, but it seems to get
stronger day by day. Now just opening the door and getting into the
car is like walking into a wall of oil fumes. There is no
black/blue/white smoke upon startup. Thus the desire to put it up on
jack stands to poke around underneath.

There was only a bit of coolant in the overflow reservoir (which I
topped off today), so it's hard to tell if there are bubbles or traces
of oil in the coolant. Doesn't seem to be from looking under the
radiator cap, but it's not as discernible there as in the reservoir.
Check again in daylight tomorrow, after driving around a bit.

The oil level seems steady at 130% (where 0%=low-mark,
100%=high-mark), but it's not easy to tell because of the unclear way
in which the oil level shows up at that level. Normally, the oil on
the dipstick has a nice, clear edge, almost like the edge of a bead of
water. However, at the 130% region, the oil film thickness tapers off
for the last quarter inch and leaves very confidence on the accuracy
of the oil level.

"Tercel Owner" <Toyota@Tercel.com> wrote in message
news:42b63d25_2@x-privat.org...[color=blue]
> Ray O wrote:[color=green]
> >"Tercel Owner" <Toyota@Tercel.com> wrote:[color=darkred]
> >>Ray O wrote:
> >>>"Tercel Owner" <Toyota@Tercel.com> wrote:
> >>>>I...find black sludge at the bottom few millimeters of the
> >>>>dipstick, while all the rest of the oil is clear. Never saw that
> >>>>combination before. I am told that there was no sludge at the
> >>>>bottom of the oil pan.
> >>>
> >>>If you see black sludge on the bottom of the dipstick, then there is
> >>>sludge at the bottom of the oil pan or the oil was not thoroughly
> >>>drained the last time it was changed. Actual semi-solid sludge than
> >>>you can wipe off the dipstick is a bad sign. I would run some
> >>>engine flush through, change the oil, repeat the process, then drop
> >>>the pan and thoroughly clean it, or if you can't get the baffles
> >>>clean, replace it. On the other hand, a little discoloration or
> >>>stain on the metal dipstick is not anything to worry about.
> >>
> >>It is quite wipable, and quite distinct from the almost transparent
> >>new oil. But my mechanic said he checked for sludge on the bottom and
> >>found none.[/color]
> >
> > A dipstick will naturally get darker with age, almost like a stain.
> > I wouldn't worry to much about that.[/color]
>
> Just to clarify, it's not actually the dipstick that is darkening, it
> is residue on the bottom of the dipstick, which can be wiped away. It
> occured to me that it could be just crud on the walls of the
> "scabbard" in which the dipstick rests. Maybe from having the engine
> sit on the shelf for too long. I assume that used engines sit on the
> shelf without oil in them, so this black stuff might be dried out oil
> residue. I'll see if it depends on how I pull the dipstick out
> tomorrow (in daylight).[/color]

The "scabbard" is called a dipstick tube. I doubt if the walls of the tube
has enough crud to actually appear on the dipstick unless the engine was
seriously sludged.
[color=blue]
>[color=green][color=darkred]
> >>it seem[s] to be quite fluid. It would also explain why my mechanic
> >>says there is no sludge - because it's actually just old oil.[/color]
> >
> > The thicker the sludge, the bigger the problem. A sludge that is
> > viscous
> > enough to flow can be flushed out with oil changes when the engine is
> > hot.
> > A more solid sludge with the consistency of putty means disassembling
> > the
> > engine to get it out.
> >
> > If the sludge has the same viscosicty as the oil and just seems like
> > dark
> > oil, that is notmal and nothing to worry about.[/color]
>
> I said it was wipable, I'll take a closer look in daylight. It may
> actually be thicker, but it might seem very fluid because there is so
> little of it. If it was dried out oil residue on the interior walls
> of the dipstick "scabbard", then I expect it to be more sludgy (just
> instinct, not sure if that would correpsond to reality).
>[color=green][color=darkred]
> >>...it's puzzling why the old oil didn't mix with
> >>the fresh oil after driving for approximately 7km (about 5 miles),
> >>with the oil being pumped up to the head and flowing back down. It
> >>is all the more baffling when one considers that the oil showing on
> >>the dipstick is the top 1L of oil in the pan. If the capacity is
> >>3L, for example, then there is still 2L in the engine even when the
> >>oil is at the Low mark on the dipstick. I would've expected the
> >>gunky oil to be at the bottom of the pan (assuming that there is
> >>some mysterious reason why it didn't mix).[/color]
> >
> > Maybe someone added an oil additive or thickening agent. That stuff
> > has the consistency of honey and takes a while to mix with the oil.
> > I'm not a fan of oil additives because good quality motor oil should
> > be enough.[/color]
>
> It is possible, but he didn't say anything about an additive. I took
> a whiff of the oil and it smells a bit like gasoline. Maybe that's
> normal. I'll purchase some fresh oil to compare smells. If the
> engine doesn't burn oil, I'll probably end up discarding the bought
> oil without using it; some googling as shown me that oil should not
> be kept or used if you can't remember when you opened the container.[/color]

Engine oil should not smell like gasoline! Gas in your oil is a serious
problem because it dilutes the oil and washes the protective film off the
cylinder walls. If you have a badly leaking injector, it could account for
what appears to be a high oil level but you would probably have black smoke
at startup.
[color=blue]
>
> Even if he added stuff, though, it is odd that it would float around
> the 1quart depth beneath the surface of the oil in the pan, and be
> crud-black. For the moment, I'm inclined to suspect crud on the
> interior of the dipstick scabbard.
>[color=green][color=darkred]
> >>About engine flush, I think I'll try to achieve the same cleaning
> >>effect by changing the oil more frequently than necessary. I've
> >>read mixed opinions about engine flush, and it's hard to go wrong by
> >>using the more gradual cleaning that comes with frequent oil
> >>changes.[/color]
> >
> > Frequent oil changes is better for your engine than flushes. I
> > consider flushes more of a last-ditch resort than "normal"
> > maintenance.[/color]
>
> Yes, I heard that removing the crud can cause problems, and my
> mechanic agrees. Seals may start leaking, and crud removed from the
> inside rim of the piston rings (where they seat themselves in the
> grooves) may cause them not to scrap the cylinder walls as well --
> especially if the rings are cracked. This is besides the possibility
> that crud comes off in large quantities and plug up some oil channels.
>[color=green][color=darkred]
> >>P.S. For this 2nd used engine, my mechanic said he had to change
> >>the rear main seals because they leaked. In another thread, someone
> >>mentioned that these seals normally last forever, and only leak due
> >>to neglect of oil changes. I'm hoping that if this is true, then
> >>there are no further problems due to such neglect.[/color]
> >
> > Front and rear seals will get hard if the engine was in a boneyard
> > for a while. The best way to tell the condition of an engine is to
> > remove the oil pan and inspect the pan and remove the valve cover
> > and inspect the heads. If they are OK, then the seals got hard from
> > sitting dry for a long time.[/color]
>
> I may try that yet, just not confident enough to do that right away.
> And having a place to do it is a bit of a problem. I'm even
> scratching my head to think of a place where I can put the car up on
> jack stands without raising eyebrows, preferrably without much traffic
> (don't want the car bumped with me under it).
>
> From your comment about front & rear seals drying out, I assume that
> either they empty out the oil prior to boneyarding it, or the oil
> level in the pan doesn't come as far up as the front & rear seals.
> Emptying it out seems to make more sense to me.[/color]

The oil is emptied so it doesn't leak all over while it is stored.[color=blue]
>
> Having driven the car around for a few days with this 2nd used engine,
> I'm finding tremendous oil smells entering the cabin, much more so
> than the 1st one. The strange thing is that I don't recall such
> strong oil smell on the day of picking up the car, but it seems to get
> stronger day by day. Now just opening the door and getting into the
> car is like walking into a wall of oil fumes. There is no
> black/blue/white smoke upon startup. Thus the desire to put it up on
> jack stands to poke around underneath.
>
> There was only a bit of coolant in the overflow reservoir (which I
> topped off today), so it's hard to tell if there are bubbles or traces
> of oil in the coolant. Doesn't seem to be from looking under the
> radiator cap, but it's not as discernible there as in the reservoir.
> Check again in daylight tomorrow, after driving around a bit.
>
> The oil level seems steady at 130% (where 0%=low-mark,
> 100%=high-mark), but it's not easy to tell because of the unclear way
> in which the oil level shows up at that level. Normally, the oil on
> the dipstick has a nice, clear edge, almost like the edge of a bead of
> water. However, at the 130% region, the oil film thickness tapers off
> for the last quarter inch and leaves very confidence on the accuracy
> of the oil level.[/color]
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply