JD Powers Survey

Lexus keeps J.D. Power dependability crown
Porsche, Hyundai improve
By Gail Kachadourian
Automotive News / June 29, 2005

Nameplate Ranking

Problems per 100 Vehicles
Lexus139
Porsche149
Lincoln151
Buick163
Cadillac175
Infiniti178
Toyota194
Mercury195
Honda201
Acura203
BMW225
Ford231
Chevrolet232
Chrysler235
Industry Average237
Saturn240
Oldsmobile242
GMC245
Pontiac245
Mazda252
Hyundai260
Subaru260
Volvo266
Jaguar268
Dodge273
Nissan275
Mitsubishi278
Mercedes-Benz283
Saab286
Jeep289
Suzuki292
Audi312
Daewoo318
Isuzu331
Volkswagen335
MINI383
Land Rover395
Kia397


For the 11th straight year, Lexus is tops in long-term quality in J.D. Power
and Associates' Vehicle Dependability Study.

According to the 2005 study, owners of 2002-model Lexus vehicles reported
139 problems per 100 vehicles. Power released the study on Wednesday.

Lexus showed a 14 percent improvement in dependability over 2004, Power
said. Lexus vehicles ranked first in three of the 19 car and truck segments
included in the study.

The Lexus LS 430 had 90 problems per 100 vehicles. It is the first model in
the history of the 16-year-old study to have fewer than one problem per
vehicle.

Porsche showed a dramatic increase in this year's study. It finished second
in dependability, up from tenth last year. Porsche had 149 problems per 100
vehicles, a 38 percent year-over-year improvement.

"It's the largest percentage improvement in the industry," said Neal Oddes,
Power's director of product research.

"Porsche didn't change much of their lineup" from the 2001 to 2002 model
year, Oddes said. "They just improved on what they had."

Hyundai had the largest year-over-year reduction in the number of problems
reported by owners. The brand had 260 problems per 100 vehicles, a reduction
of 115 problems from last year's study. But Hyundai still finished below the
industry average of 237 problems per 100 vehicles.

Chevrolet placed first in four model segments, more than any other brand.
The study ranked Chevrolet's Prizm and Malibu cars and S-10 and Silverado HD
pickups most dependable in their segments.

Among other General Motors vehicles, the Buick Century and LeSabre sedans,
GMC Yukon and Yukon XL and Cadillac Escalade EXT SUVs finished on top of
their model segments.

"This is the first time, when you look at GM, they've won this many segment
awards," Oddes says.

Ford Motor Co. vehicles finished first in five segments. Toyota had four
segment leaders.

Oddes noted that the Escalade EXT and the redesigned Ford Thunderbird,
another segment winner, debuted in the 2002 model year. A first-year vehicle
finishing first in dependability "is very rare at best," he says.

Overall, the Power study says, long-term vehicle quality increased 12
percent from 2004 to 2005. Audi and Saab were the only brands that did not
show year-over-year improvements.

Audi had 312 problems per 100 vehicles in this year's study, a 6 percent
increase from 2004. Saab had 286 problems per 100 vehicles, an 8 percent
increase. Oddes called these annual changes in dependability "minor
declines."

Kia, which had 397 problems per 100 vehicles, finished last in the 2005
study. Land Rover, last year's lowest performer, was second to last this
year, with 395 problems.

The Power study is based on responses from 50,635 original owners of 2002
model vehicles. A vehicle warranty typically is reaching its end after three
years, Power said.

The just goes to show how closely cars are rated today for build
quality by their owners. The best has a rate 1.39 defects per
car and the worst 3.97 and the average of only 2.37. If one
subscribes to J D Powers service they would see the failures are
mostly minor in nature, such as squeaks and rattles

Looks much different when presented as a list than if shown, as
it should be, as a percentage of failures. The best as just over
98% trouble free, the average just under 98% trouble free, and
the worst as just under 97% trouble free. That is what we see
in our business, as well.

All manufactures are building good vehicles today that will
easily run to 200K, trouble free, if given the proper preventive
maintenance. The only real difference among them is style and
price. Your chance of getting a good one are basically 8 out of
9. The change of getting one not up to snuff is minor 1% to 2%
since they all have a failure rate of at least 1%, that is why
they all offer a warranty.

Why some will spend 20% or 30% more to buy a comparable vehicle,
of a certain brand over another, just in the hope that the ONE
they get is not one of the 1% to 2%, always seemed like extremely
poor gambling odds to me ;)





"C. E. White" wrote:[color=blue]
>
> Lexus keeps J.D. Power dependability crown
> Porsche, Hyundai improve
> By Gail Kachadourian
> Automotive News / June 29, 2005
>
> Nameplate Ranking
>
> Problems per 100 Vehicles
> Lexus139
> Porsche149
> Lincoln151
> Buick163
> Cadillac175
> Infiniti178
> Toyota194
> Mercury195
> Honda201
> Acura203
> BMW225
> Ford231
> Chevrolet232
> Chrysler235
> Industry Average237
> Saturn240
> Oldsmobile242
> GMC245
> Pontiac245
> Mazda252
> Hyundai260
> Subaru260
> Volvo266
> Jaguar268
> Dodge273
> Nissan275
> Mitsubishi278
> Mercedes-Benz283
> Saab286
> Jeep289
> Suzuki292
> Audi312
> Daewoo318
> Isuzu331
> Volkswagen335
> MINI383
> Land Rover395
> Kia397
>
> For the 11th straight year, Lexus is tops in long-term quality in J.D. Power
> and Associates' Vehicle Dependability Study.
>
> According to the 2005 study, owners of 2002-model Lexus vehicles reported
> 139 problems per 100 vehicles. Power released the study on Wednesday.
>
> Lexus showed a 14 percent improvement in dependability over 2004, Power
> said. Lexus vehicles ranked first in three of the 19 car and truck segments
> included in the study.
>
> The Lexus LS 430 had 90 problems per 100 vehicles. It is the first model in
> the history of the 16-year-old study to have fewer than one problem per
> vehicle.
>
> Porsche showed a dramatic increase in this year's study. It finished second
> in dependability, up from tenth last year. Porsche had 149 problems per 100
> vehicles, a 38 percent year-over-year improvement.
>
> "It's the largest percentage improvement in the industry," said Neal Oddes,
> Power's director of product research.
>
> "Porsche didn't change much of their lineup" from the 2001 to 2002 model
> year, Oddes said. "They just improved on what they had."
>
> Hyundai had the largest year-over-year reduction in the number of problems
> reported by owners. The brand had 260 problems per 100 vehicles, a reduction
> of 115 problems from last year's study. But Hyundai still finished below the
> industry average of 237 problems per 100 vehicles.
>
> Chevrolet placed first in four model segments, more than any other brand.
> The study ranked Chevrolet's Prizm and Malibu cars and S-10 and Silverado HD
> pickups most dependable in their segments.
>
> Among other General Motors vehicles, the Buick Century and LeSabre sedans,
> GMC Yukon and Yukon XL and Cadillac Escalade EXT SUVs finished on top of
> their model segments.
>
> "This is the first time, when you look at GM, they've won this many segment
> awards," Oddes says.
>
> Ford Motor Co. vehicles finished first in five segments. Toyota had four
> segment leaders.
>
> Oddes noted that the Escalade EXT and the redesigned Ford Thunderbird,
> another segment winner, debuted in the 2002 model year. A first-year vehicle
> finishing first in dependability "is very rare at best," he says.
>
> Overall, the Power study says, long-term vehicle quality increased 12
> percent from 2004 to 2005. Audi and Saab were the only brands that did not
> show year-over-year improvements.
>
> Audi had 312 problems per 100 vehicles in this year's study, a 6 percent
> increase from 2004. Saab had 286 problems per 100 vehicles, an 8 percent
> increase. Oddes called these annual changes in dependability "minor
> declines."
>
> Kia, which had 397 problems per 100 vehicles, finished last in the 2005
> study. Land Rover, last year's lowest performer, was second to last this
> year, with 395 problems.
>
> The Power study is based on responses from 50,635 original owners of 2002
> model vehicles. A vehicle warranty typically is reaching its end after three
> years, Power said.[/color]

The worst have 3 times the number of problems as the best. That might make
a difference to somebody.

<MelvinGibson@mailcity.com> wrote in message
news:42C321D6.93E92F56@mailcity.com...[color=blue]
> The just goes to show how closely cars are rated today for build
> quality by their owners. The best has a rate 1.39 defects per
> car and the worst 3.97 and the average of only 2.37. If one
> subscribes to J D Powers service they would see the failures are
> mostly minor in nature, such as squeaks and rattles
>
> Looks much different when presented as a list than if shown, as
> it should be, as a percentage of failures. The best as just over
> 98% trouble free, the average just under 98% trouble free, and
> the worst as just under 97% trouble free. That is what we see
> in our business, as well.
>
> All manufactures are building good vehicles today that will
> easily run to 200K, trouble free, if given the proper preventive
> maintenance. The only real difference among them is style and
> price. Your chance of getting a good one are basically 8 out of
> 9. The change of getting one not up to snuff is minor 1% to 2%
> since they all have a failure rate of at least 1%, that is why
> they all offer a warranty.
>
> Why some will spend 20% or 30% more to buy a comparable vehicle,
> of a certain brand over another, just in the hope that the ONE
> they get is not one of the 1% to 2%, always seemed like extremely
> poor gambling odds to me ;)[/color]


But there are other issues. For example, a friend just bought a 2005
Corvette. He drove me to a business meeting a few miles away. I own a
4runner. When he started the vette, it ran rough, and it took 10 minutes for
the car's AC to cool it down. In my 4runner, the engine runs so that I don't
even feel it on, and the AC cools it down in a matter of 2 minutes. So there
are still design issues that are still huge. I am thinking about buying the
Dodge Charger - and then souping it up. I really hope quality is getting
that good... we will see..

Initial Quality reports are so stupid. Lets have a quality report after 5
or 10 years when it really counts.

"C. E. White" <cewhite3@removemindspring.com> wrote in message
news:42c2dca1_1@news1.prserv.net...[color=blue]
> Lexus keeps J.D. Power dependability crown
> Porsche, Hyundai improve
> By Gail Kachadourian
> Automotive News / June 29, 2005
>
> Nameplate Ranking
>
> Problems per 100 Vehicles
> Lexus139
> Porsche149
> Lincoln151
> Buick163
> Cadillac175
> Infiniti178
> Toyota194
> Mercury195
> Honda201
> Acura203
> BMW225
> Ford231
> Chevrolet232
> Chrysler235
> Industry Average237
> Saturn240
> Oldsmobile242
> GMC245
> Pontiac245
> Mazda252
> Hyundai260
> Subaru260
> Volvo266
> Jaguar268
> Dodge273
> Nissan275
> Mitsubishi278
> Mercedes-Benz283
> Saab286
> Jeep289
> Suzuki292
> Audi312
> Daewoo318
> Isuzu331
> Volkswagen335
> MINI383
> Land Rover395
> Kia397
>
>
> For the 11th straight year, Lexus is tops in long-term quality in J.D.[/color]
Power[color=blue]
> and Associates' Vehicle Dependability Study.
>
> According to the 2005 study, owners of 2002-model Lexus vehicles reported
> 139 problems per 100 vehicles. Power released the study on Wednesday.
>
> Lexus showed a 14 percent improvement in dependability over 2004, Power
> said. Lexus vehicles ranked first in three of the 19 car and truck[/color]
segments[color=blue]
> included in the study.
>
> The Lexus LS 430 had 90 problems per 100 vehicles. It is the first model[/color]
in[color=blue]
> the history of the 16-year-old study to have fewer than one problem per
> vehicle.
>
> Porsche showed a dramatic increase in this year's study. It finished[/color]
second[color=blue]
> in dependability, up from tenth last year. Porsche had 149 problems per[/color]
100[color=blue]
> vehicles, a 38 percent year-over-year improvement.
>
> "It's the largest percentage improvement in the industry," said Neal[/color]
Oddes,[color=blue]
> Power's director of product research.
>
> "Porsche didn't change much of their lineup" from the 2001 to 2002 model
> year, Oddes said. "They just improved on what they had."
>
> Hyundai had the largest year-over-year reduction in the number of problems
> reported by owners. The brand had 260 problems per 100 vehicles, a[/color]
reduction[color=blue]
> of 115 problems from last year's study. But Hyundai still finished below[/color]
the[color=blue]
> industry average of 237 problems per 100 vehicles.
>
> Chevrolet placed first in four model segments, more than any other brand.
> The study ranked Chevrolet's Prizm and Malibu cars and S-10 and Silverado[/color]
HD[color=blue]
> pickups most dependable in their segments.
>
> Among other General Motors vehicles, the Buick Century and LeSabre sedans,
> GMC Yukon and Yukon XL and Cadillac Escalade EXT SUVs finished on top of
> their model segments.
>
> "This is the first time, when you look at GM, they've won this many[/color]
segment[color=blue]
> awards," Oddes says.
>
> Ford Motor Co. vehicles finished first in five segments. Toyota had four
> segment leaders.
>
> Oddes noted that the Escalade EXT and the redesigned Ford Thunderbird,
> another segment winner, debuted in the 2002 model year. A first-year[/color]
vehicle[color=blue]
> finishing first in dependability "is very rare at best," he says.
>
> Overall, the Power study says, long-term vehicle quality increased 12
> percent from 2004 to 2005. Audi and Saab were the only brands that did not
> show year-over-year improvements.
>
> Audi had 312 problems per 100 vehicles in this year's study, a 6 percent
> increase from 2004. Saab had 286 problems per 100 vehicles, an 8 percent
> increase. Oddes called these annual changes in dependability "minor
> declines."
>
> Kia, which had 397 problems per 100 vehicles, finished last in the 2005
> study. Land Rover, last year's lowest performer, was second to last this
> year, with 395 problems.
>
> The Power study is based on responses from 50,635 original owners of 2002
> model vehicles. A vehicle warranty typically is reaching its end after[/color]
three[color=blue]
> years, Power said.
>
>[/color]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Art" <begunaNOSPAMPLEASE@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: rec.autos.misc,alt.autos.ford,alt.autos.toyota
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 9:54 PM
Subject: Re: JD Powers Survey

[color=blue]
> The worst have 3 times the number of problems as the best. That might[/color]
make[color=blue]
> a difference to somebody.[/color]

Stating the differences that way is misleading. Suppose the best vehicles
had no problems and the worst average 1 problem. Using your logic, the worst
vehicle was infinitely worse than the best vehicle.......

If the worst manufacturer had 30 problems per vehicle and the best 10, that
might be significant. But the worst manufacturer (Kia) only averaged 4
problems per vehicle, whicle the best (Lexus) averaged a little over 1
problem per vehicle. How many people buying a Kia would have paid an extra
$10,000 or more to buy a Lexus so they could avoid 3 problems (partiucularly
since most are probably minor)?

Ed

"Don Moore" <willyworm_99@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:UzSwe.25482$7X1.21726@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com...[color=blue]
> Initial Quality reports are so stupid. Lets have a quality report after 5
> or 10 years when it really counts.[/color]

These particular ones are not initial, they are 3 year old.. which is still
fairly short...

Most of people only keep their new cars for 3-5 years today.

"Don Moore" <willyworm_99@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:UzSwe.25482$7X1.21726@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com...[color=blue]
> Initial Quality reports are so stupid. Lets have a quality report after 5
> or 10 years when it really counts.
>
> "C. E. White" <cewhite3@removemindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:42c2dca1_1@news1.prserv.net...[color=green]
> > Lexus keeps J.D. Power dependability crown
> > Porsche, Hyundai improve
> > By Gail Kachadourian
> > Automotive News / June 29, 2005
> >
> > Nameplate Ranking
> >
> > Problems per 100 Vehicles
> > Lexus139
> > Porsche149
> > Lincoln151
> > Buick163
> > Cadillac175
> > Infiniti178
> > Toyota194
> > Mercury195
> > Honda201
> > Acura203
> > BMW225
> > Ford231
> > Chevrolet232
> > Chrysler235
> > Industry Average237
> > Saturn240
> > Oldsmobile242
> > GMC245
> > Pontiac245
> > Mazda252
> > Hyundai260
> > Subaru260
> > Volvo266
> > Jaguar268
> > Dodge273
> > Nissan275
> > Mitsubishi278
> > Mercedes-Benz283
> > Saab286
> > Jeep289
> > Suzuki292
> > Audi312
> > Daewoo318
> > Isuzu331
> > Volkswagen335
> > MINI383
> > Land Rover395
> > Kia397
> >
> >
> > For the 11th straight year, Lexus is tops in long-term quality in J.D.[/color]
> Power[color=green]
> > and Associates' Vehicle Dependability Study.
> >
> > According to the 2005 study, owners of 2002-model Lexus vehicles[/color][/color]
reported[color=blue][color=green]
> > 139 problems per 100 vehicles. Power released the study on Wednesday.
> >
> > Lexus showed a 14 percent improvement in dependability over 2004, Power
> > said. Lexus vehicles ranked first in three of the 19 car and truck[/color]
> segments[color=green]
> > included in the study.
> >
> > The Lexus LS 430 had 90 problems per 100 vehicles. It is the first model[/color]
> in[color=green]
> > the history of the 16-year-old study to have fewer than one problem per
> > vehicle.
> >
> > Porsche showed a dramatic increase in this year's study. It finished[/color]
> second[color=green]
> > in dependability, up from tenth last year. Porsche had 149 problems per[/color]
> 100[color=green]
> > vehicles, a 38 percent year-over-year improvement.
> >
> > "It's the largest percentage improvement in the industry," said Neal[/color]
> Oddes,[color=green]
> > Power's director of product research.
> >
> > "Porsche didn't change much of their lineup" from the 2001 to 2002 model
> > year, Oddes said. "They just improved on what they had."
> >
> > Hyundai had the largest year-over-year reduction in the number of[/color][/color]
problems[color=blue][color=green]
> > reported by owners. The brand had 260 problems per 100 vehicles, a[/color]
> reduction[color=green]
> > of 115 problems from last year's study. But Hyundai still finished below[/color]
> the[color=green]
> > industry average of 237 problems per 100 vehicles.
> >
> > Chevrolet placed first in four model segments, more than any other[/color][/color]
brand.[color=blue][color=green]
> > The study ranked Chevrolet's Prizm and Malibu cars and S-10 and[/color][/color]
Silverado[color=blue]
> HD[color=green]
> > pickups most dependable in their segments.
> >
> > Among other General Motors vehicles, the Buick Century and LeSabre[/color][/color]
sedans,[color=blue][color=green]
> > GMC Yukon and Yukon XL and Cadillac Escalade EXT SUVs finished on top of
> > their model segments.
> >
> > "This is the first time, when you look at GM, they've won this many[/color]
> segment[color=green]
> > awards," Oddes says.
> >
> > Ford Motor Co. vehicles finished first in five segments. Toyota had four
> > segment leaders.
> >
> > Oddes noted that the Escalade EXT and the redesigned Ford Thunderbird,
> > another segment winner, debuted in the 2002 model year. A first-year[/color]
> vehicle[color=green]
> > finishing first in dependability "is very rare at best," he says.
> >
> > Overall, the Power study says, long-term vehicle quality increased 12
> > percent from 2004 to 2005. Audi and Saab were the only brands that did[/color][/color]
not[color=blue][color=green]
> > show year-over-year improvements.
> >
> > Audi had 312 problems per 100 vehicles in this year's study, a 6 percent
> > increase from 2004. Saab had 286 problems per 100 vehicles, an 8 percent
> > increase. Oddes called these annual changes in dependability "minor
> > declines."
> >
> > Kia, which had 397 problems per 100 vehicles, finished last in the 2005
> > study. Land Rover, last year's lowest performer, was second to last this
> > year, with 395 problems.
> >
> > The Power study is based on responses from 50,635 original owners of[/color][/color]
2002[color=blue][color=green]
> > model vehicles. A vehicle warranty typically is reaching its end after[/color]
> three[color=green]
> > years, Power said.
> >
> >[/color]
>
>[/color]

"C. E. White" <cewhite3@removemindspring.com> wrote in message
news:42c40a32_2@news1.prserv.net...[color=blue]
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Art" <begunaNOSPAMPLEASE@mindspring.com>
> Newsgroups: rec.autos.misc,alt.autos.ford,alt.autos.toyota
> Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 9:54 PM
> Subject: Re: JD Powers Survey
>
>[color=green]
>> The worst have 3 times the number of problems as the best. That might[/color]
> make[color=green]
>> a difference to somebody.[/color]
>
> Stating the differences that way is misleading. Suppose the best vehicles
> had no problems and the worst average 1 problem. Using your logic, the
> worst
> vehicle was infinitely worse than the best vehicle.......
>
> If the worst manufacturer had 30 problems per vehicle and the best 10,
> that
> might be significant. But the worst manufacturer (Kia) only averaged 4
> problems per vehicle, whicle the best (Lexus) averaged a little over 1
> problem per vehicle. How many people buying a Kia would have paid an extra
> $10,000 or more to buy a Lexus so they could avoid 3 problems
> (partiucularly
> since most are probably minor)?
>
> Ed
>
>[/color]

If I could get a Lexus for $10k more than a Kia I certainly would.

If you want a souped up Charger, wait a while. A bigger V8 is on its way.


"Dan J.S." <me@hyperx.com> wrote in message
news:11c6pjagm2pg93@news.supernews.com...[color=blue]
>
> <MelvinGibson@mailcity.com> wrote in message
> news:42C321D6.93E92F56@mailcity.com...[color=green]
>> The just goes to show how closely cars are rated today for build
>> quality by their owners. The best has a rate 1.39 defects per
>> car and the worst 3.97 and the average of only 2.37. If one
>> subscribes to J D Powers service they would see the failures are
>> mostly minor in nature, such as squeaks and rattles
>>
>> Looks much different when presented as a list than if shown, as
>> it should be, as a percentage of failures. The best as just over
>> 98% trouble free, the average just under 98% trouble free, and
>> the worst as just under 97% trouble free. That is what we see
>> in our business, as well.
>>
>> All manufactures are building good vehicles today that will
>> easily run to 200K, trouble free, if given the proper preventive
>> maintenance. The only real difference among them is style and
>> price. Your chance of getting a good one are basically 8 out of
>> 9. The change of getting one not up to snuff is minor 1% to 2%
>> since they all have a failure rate of at least 1%, that is why
>> they all offer a warranty.
>>
>> Why some will spend 20% or 30% more to buy a comparable vehicle,
>> of a certain brand over another, just in the hope that the ONE
>> they get is not one of the 1% to 2%, always seemed like extremely
>> poor gambling odds to me ;)[/color]
>
>
> But there are other issues. For example, a friend just bought a 2005
> Corvette. He drove me to a business meeting a few miles away. I own a
> 4runner. When he started the vette, it ran rough, and it took 10 minutes
> for the car's AC to cool it down. In my 4runner, the engine runs so that I
> don't even feel it on, and the AC cools it down in a matter of 2 minutes.
> So there are still design issues that are still huge. I am thinking about
> buying the Dodge Charger - and then souping it up. I really hope quality
> is getting that good... we will see..
>[/color]

"C. E. White" <cewhite3@removemindspring.com> wrote in message
news:42c40a32_2@news1.prserv.net...[color=blue]
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Art" <begunaNOSPAMPLEASE@mindspring.com>
> Newsgroups: rec.autos.misc,alt.autos.ford,alt.autos.toyota
> Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 9:54 PM
> Subject: Re: JD Powers Survey
>
>[color=green]
>> The worst have 3 times the number of problems as the best. That might[/color]
> make[color=green]
>> a difference to somebody.[/color]
>
> Stating the differences that way is misleading. Suppose the best vehicles
> had no problems and the worst average 1 problem. Using your logic, the
> worst
> vehicle was infinitely worse than the best vehicle.......
>
> If the worst manufacturer had 30 problems per vehicle and the best 10,
> that
> might be significant. But the worst manufacturer (Kia) only averaged 4
> problems per vehicle, whicle the best (Lexus) averaged a little over 1
> problem per vehicle. How many people buying a Kia would have paid an extra
> $10,000 or more to buy a Lexus so they could avoid 3 problems
> (partiucularly
> since most are probably minor)?
>
> Ed
>[/color]

If the number of problems a vehicle has or its reliability was the sole
reason to purchase one vehicle or brand over another, then your point is
valid because as Mike Hunt and Ed point out, the differences are fairly
minor.

IMO, most people consider several factors when choosing a vehicle, among
them past experience, quality, reliability, style, ride and cabin comfort,
quietness, performance, fuel economy, utility, prestige, available
equipment, warranty, dealer service, country of origin, price, operating
costs, resale value, safety, even color.

Under the category "quality," there are other factors besides reliability
and defects. Fit and finish - the feel, comfort, alignment, and appearance
of the interior and body; engine and transmission smoothness; wind, road and
engine noise; ergonomics.

If reliability or problems per vehicle were the only purchase criteria,
everyone would be buying the cheapest car available and everyone else would
be out of business.
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply

Apparently you did not read that survey. It was of the
experiences of owner on THREE YEAR OLD vehicles. J D Powers does
another survey of new vehicles of owners perceptions of their
vehicle after 90 day. NOBODY ever said all manufactures make a
perfect one every time. On average EVERY manufacture makes at
least 1% up to 2% that are defective, that is why they all have a
warranty. The fact is you are far more likely to a get one of
98% that are good from ANY manufacture than you are of getting
one of the 2% that prove to be problematic from ANY manufacture.
Since that is a given why not chose the one that best suits your
particular needs and budget rather then betting 20% to 30% more
in the hope you will not get one of the bad ones? That survey
concluded that GM Ford and Toyota has the best vehicles in the
survey, but only because it was not listed as percentages.


mike hunt



Art wrote:[color=blue]
>
> If you want a souped up Charger, wait a while. A bigger V8 is on its way.
>
> "Dan J.S." <me@hyperx.com> wrote in message
> news:11c6pjagm2pg93@news.supernews.com...[color=green]
> >
> > <MelvinGibson@mailcity.com> wrote in message
> > news:42C321D6.93E92F56@mailcity.com...[color=darkred]
> >> The just goes to show how closely cars are rated today for build
> >> quality by their owners. The best has a rate 1.39 defects per
> >> car and the worst 3.97 and the average of only 2.37. If one
> >> subscribes to J D Powers service they would see the failures are
> >> mostly minor in nature, such as squeaks and rattles
> >>
> >> Looks much different when presented as a list than if shown, as
> >> it should be, as a percentage of failures. The best as just over
> >> 98% trouble free, the average just under 98% trouble free, and
> >> the worst as just under 97% trouble free. That is what we see
> >> in our business, as well.
> >>
> >> All manufactures are building good vehicles today that will
> >> easily run to 200K, trouble free, if given the proper preventive
> >> maintenance. The only real difference among them is style and
> >> price. Your chance of getting a good one are basically 8 out of
> >> 9. The change of getting one not up to snuff is minor 1% to 2%
> >> since they all have a failure rate of at least 1%, that is why
> >> they all offer a warranty.
> >>
> >> Why some will spend 20% or 30% more to buy a comparable vehicle,
> >> of a certain brand over another, just in the hope that the ONE
> >> they get is not one of the 1% to 2%, always seemed like extremely
> >> poor gambling odds to me ;)[/color]
> >
> >
> > But there are other issues. For example, a friend just bought a 2005
> > Corvette. He drove me to a business meeting a few miles away. I own a
> > 4runner. When he started the vette, it ran rough, and it took 10 minutes
> > for the car's AC to cool it down. In my 4runner, the engine runs so that I
> > don't even feel it on, and the AC cools it down in a matter of 2 minutes.
> > So there are still design issues that are still huge. I am thinking about
> > buying the Dodge Charger - and then souping it up. I really hope quality
> > is getting that good... we will see..
> >[/color][/color]

Actually GM was rated better than all other manufactures, of
THREE year old vehicles. Those are NOT the vehicle GM sells
today. One must make their judgment between the vehicles
available today not three or ten years ago. The newer vehicle
are even BETTER than just three years ago.


mike hunt




"Dan J.S." wrote:[color=blue]
>
> <MelvinGibson@mailcity.com> wrote in message
> news:42C321D6.93E92F56@mailcity.com...[color=green]
> > The just goes to show how closely cars are rated today for build
> > quality by their owners. The best has a rate 1.39 defects per
> > car and the worst 3.97 and the average of only 2.37. If one
> > subscribes to J D Powers service they would see the failures are
> > mostly minor in nature, such as squeaks and rattles
> >
> > Looks much different when presented as a list than if shown, as
> > it should be, as a percentage of failures. The best as just over
> > 98% trouble free, the average just under 98% trouble free, and
> > the worst as just under 97% trouble free. That is what we see
> > in our business, as well.
> >
> > All manufactures are building good vehicles today that will
> > easily run to 200K, trouble free, if given the proper preventive
> > maintenance. The only real difference among them is style and
> > price. Your chance of getting a good one are basically 8 out of
> > 9. The change of getting one not up to snuff is minor 1% to 2%
> > since they all have a failure rate of at least 1%, that is why
> > they all offer a warranty.
> >
> > Why some will spend 20% or 30% more to buy a comparable vehicle,
> > of a certain brand over another, just in the hope that the ONE
> > they get is not one of the 1% to 2%, always seemed like extremely
> > poor gambling odds to me ;)[/color]
>
> But there are other issues. For example, a friend just bought a 2005
> Corvette. He drove me to a business meeting a few miles away. I own a
> 4runner. When he started the vette, it ran rough, and it took 10 minutes for
> the car's AC to cool it down. In my 4runner, the engine runs so that I don't
> even feel it on, and the AC cools it down in a matter of 2 minutes. So there
> are still design issues that are still huge. I am thinking about buying the
> Dodge Charger - and then souping it up. I really hope quality is getting
> that good... we will see..[/color]

You responded to the wrong post in the thread but in any case, any survey
that says GM and Ford are near the top in 3 year reliability is screwed up.


<BenDover@mailcity.com> wrote in message
news:42C45037.388F4194@mailcity.com...[color=blue]
> Apparently you did not read that survey. It was of the
> experiences of owner on THREE YEAR OLD vehicles. J D Powers does
> another survey of new vehicles of owners perceptions of their
> vehicle after 90 day. NOBODY ever said all manufactures make a
> perfect one every time. On average EVERY manufacture makes at
> least 1% up to 2% that are defective, that is why they all have a
> warranty. The fact is you are far more likely to a get one of
> 98% that are good from ANY manufacture than you are of getting
> one of the 2% that prove to be problematic from ANY manufacture.
> Since that is a given why not chose the one that best suits your
> particular needs and budget rather then betting 20% to 30% more
> in the hope you will not get one of the bad ones? That survey
> concluded that GM Ford and Toyota has the best vehicles in the
> survey, but only because it was not listed as percentages.
>
>
> mike hunt
>
>
>
> Art wrote:[color=green]
>>
>> If you want a souped up Charger, wait a while. A bigger V8 is on its
>> way.
>>
>> "Dan J.S." <me@hyperx.com> wrote in message
>> news:11c6pjagm2pg93@news.supernews.com...[color=darkred]
>> >
>> > <MelvinGibson@mailcity.com> wrote in message
>> > news:42C321D6.93E92F56@mailcity.com...
>> >> The just goes to show how closely cars are rated today for build
>> >> quality by their owners. The best has a rate 1.39 defects per
>> >> car and the worst 3.97 and the average of only 2.37. If one
>> >> subscribes to J D Powers service they would see the failures are
>> >> mostly minor in nature, such as squeaks and rattles
>> >>
>> >> Looks much different when presented as a list than if shown, as
>> >> it should be, as a percentage of failures. The best as just over
>> >> 98% trouble free, the average just under 98% trouble free, and
>> >> the worst as just under 97% trouble free. That is what we see
>> >> in our business, as well.
>> >>
>> >> All manufactures are building good vehicles today that will
>> >> easily run to 200K, trouble free, if given the proper preventive
>> >> maintenance. The only real difference among them is style and
>> >> price. Your chance of getting a good one are basically 8 out of
>> >> 9. The change of getting one not up to snuff is minor 1% to 2%
>> >> since they all have a failure rate of at least 1%, that is why
>> >> they all offer a warranty.
>> >>
>> >> Why some will spend 20% or 30% more to buy a comparable vehicle,
>> >> of a certain brand over another, just in the hope that the ONE
>> >> they get is not one of the 1% to 2%, always seemed like extremely
>> >> poor gambling odds to me ;)
>> >
>> >
>> > But there are other issues. For example, a friend just bought a 2005
>> > Corvette. He drove me to a business meeting a few miles away. I own a
>> > 4runner. When he started the vette, it ran rough, and it took 10
>> > minutes
>> > for the car's AC to cool it down. In my 4runner, the engine runs so
>> > that I
>> > don't even feel it on, and the AC cools it down in a matter of 2
>> > minutes.
>> > So there are still design issues that are still huge. I am thinking
>> > about
>> > buying the Dodge Charger - and then souping it up. I really hope
>> > quality
>> > is getting that good... we will see..
>> >[/color][/color][/color]

Tell my buddy who had no end to problems with a late model Malibu. He was
diehard GM even after owning a Vega. But no more GM for him.


<BenDover@mailcity.com> wrote in message
news:42C45190.10F8F0FE@mailcity.com...[color=blue]
> Actually GM was rated better than all other manufactures, of
> THREE year old vehicles. Those are NOT the vehicle GM sells
> today. One must make their judgment between the vehicles
> available today not three or ten years ago. The newer vehicle
> are even BETTER than just three years ago.
>
>
> mike hunt
>
>
>
>
> "Dan J.S." wrote:[color=green]
>>
>> <MelvinGibson@mailcity.com> wrote in message
>> news:42C321D6.93E92F56@mailcity.com...[color=darkred]
>> > The just goes to show how closely cars are rated today for build
>> > quality by their owners. The best has a rate 1.39 defects per
>> > car and the worst 3.97 and the average of only 2.37. If one
>> > subscribes to J D Powers service they would see the failures are
>> > mostly minor in nature, such as squeaks and rattles
>> >
>> > Looks much different when presented as a list than if shown, as
>> > it should be, as a percentage of failures. The best as just over
>> > 98% trouble free, the average just under 98% trouble free, and
>> > the worst as just under 97% trouble free. That is what we see
>> > in our business, as well.
>> >
>> > All manufactures are building good vehicles today that will
>> > easily run to 200K, trouble free, if given the proper preventive
>> > maintenance. The only real difference among them is style and
>> > price. Your chance of getting a good one are basically 8 out of
>> > 9. The change of getting one not up to snuff is minor 1% to 2%
>> > since they all have a failure rate of at least 1%, that is why
>> > they all offer a warranty.
>> >
>> > Why some will spend 20% or 30% more to buy a comparable vehicle,
>> > of a certain brand over another, just in the hope that the ONE
>> > they get is not one of the 1% to 2%, always seemed like extremely
>> > poor gambling odds to me ;)[/color]
>>
>> But there are other issues. For example, a friend just bought a 2005
>> Corvette. He drove me to a business meeting a few miles away. I own a
>> 4runner. When he started the vette, it ran rough, and it took 10 minutes
>> for
>> the car's AC to cool it down. In my 4runner, the engine runs so that I
>> don't
>> even feel it on, and the AC cools it down in a matter of 2 minutes. So
>> there
>> are still design issues that are still huge. I am thinking about buying
>> the
>> Dodge Charger - and then souping it up. I really hope quality is getting
>> that good... we will see..[/color][/color]