Toyota's Tide is Turning?

There is an interesting article at The Auto Buzz, located at
[url]http://theautobuzz.blogspot.com/2005/06/toyotas-tide-is-turning-brief-synopsis_30.html[/url]
:

As any individual who has paid close attention to the automotive
industry can tell you, the cyclical nature has brought boom and bust to
almost all major automakers, save two. Those two, BMW and Toyota, have
enjoyed a period of steady growth since both companies' inceptions in
the late 1950's. While BMW is still on track for another year of
increasing profits, this article will focus on what looks to be an
unlikely shadow in the 21st century automotive industry - once mighty
Toyota.

Toyota first started in 1947 in the aftermath of what was Japan
post-WWII. Much in the same way that current-day Chinese competitors
illegally copy the IP and designs of cars such as the Chery QQ,
Toyota's magnificent rise to fame was the one-off Willys Jeep
replica, the Land Cruiser. Throughout the 1960's and 1970's, while
Americans were enjoying vehicles with power, spirit and style, Toyota
remained committed to dominating the market through conservative
styling, reticent power, and an attention to rust.

Needless to say, the inkling of Toyota in the American car-buying
public's mind was not until the late 1970's. The oil crisis of the
early 1970's changed the automobile market for decades to come. The
Carter Administration issued a mandatory procedural change in early
1971 requiring all coastal ports to reject color-coded oil barrels from
Iran, causing the price of gasoline to skyrocket to an
inflation-adjusted figure of $13.73/gallon. Lines at the gas pumps were
often miles long, and with vehicles getting about 9 miles per gallon on
average, this caused quite a stress on the American buyer's mind.

Toyota officially entered the American market on April 1st, 1973, a
date which will forever live in infamy to the executives at the Big
Three, then General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler. While the Big Three
were brand new at producing models barely large enough to fit Ted
Kennedy and his girlfriend on the inside, Toyota had been producing
vehicles the size of golf carts for over two decades. As the quality of
domestic manufacturers slipped, more and more people tried what was
then called an "import," short for "unimportant." This cycle
continued for almost 25 years, with the market share for domestics
slowly slipping year after year. As perception lags reality, many
mistakenly believe this is still true to this day.

The first turning point in the fall of almighty Toyota is their first
entry into the controversy-rife "hybrid" market in 1999. Called
"hybrids" because of their ability to run electric motors on a
mixture of oil and gasoline, the Prius was met with mixed reviews.
Promising figures as high as 60 miles per gallon, the gas-buying public
looked wide-eyed at the possibility of "energy independence."
Intellectuals on the west coast such as Barbara Streisand and Ellen
Degeneres sought to make a fashion statement in making saving the
environment trendy. Things were looking up for the suits at Toyota, but
the controversy was just beginning.

Soon the reports started rolling in that hybrids were dangerous. EMT
workers were scared to touch them at accident scenes, with batteries
filled with gasoline with enough voltage to shock and kill a paramedic.
Because the vehicles do not have a transmission, the electric motors
can propel the vehicles down the road at tremendous rates of speed
without warning. Emergency workers were trained not to touch Priuses,
for fear of any number of dangerous incidents to put their lives in
jeopardy.

Realizing the initial success of Toyota, Honda took the next step in
licensing Toyota's hybrid technology to implement into their Civic
compact car. Their strategy was different, however. For Honda's
hybrids, fuel injectors would not be powered electronically, thus the
electric engine would only work when the main engine was on. While this
produced less dramatic numbers for EPA estimates, Honda's move was
enough to get themselves out of the limelight that was to be shed on
the safety issues of hybrids in general.

The mythical gasoline figures that Toyota had relied upon to promote
their Priuses were a source of controversy from day one. 60 miles per
gallon, the sticker estimated, but some users were getting as low as 27
miles per gallon. Worse yet, some users were reporting getting less
fuel economy on the highway than in the city, likely due to the lack of
a transmission. Toyota has, to date, been mum on this issue, citing
that the tests have performed within EPA specifications.

The most recent situation threatening to bring down the Toyota Empire
is a culture of scandals and cover-ups in Japan. Numerous issues have
been brought about with regards to Toyota, and more recently, their
affiliate Mitsubishi. Toyota has had to, in recent weeks, replace
defective brake systems on over 170,000 vehicles, putting the lives of
their occupants at risk. These safety concerns also extend to their
beloved hybrid sedan, the Prius. According to NHTSA, the governmental
organization responsible for automobile safety has received hundreds of
complaints from Toyota owners when their Prius would stall at highway
speeds. Toyota has, to this day, refused to issue a recall to fix the
problem that has put the lives of so many of their "customers" at
such blatent risk.

Statistical evidence is arriving daily about the imminent demise of the
second largest automaker in the world. According to J.D. Power and
Associates' Vehicle Dependability Study, which measures three year
dependability of automakers, Toyota has slipped past GM and Ford. The
latest J.D. Power Initial Quality Study also ranks GM ahead of
semi-perennial winner Toyota. Mix that with feeds that Toyota will
raise prices in the United States to recoup economic losses against
rising competitors.

As Toyota continues to phase out niche models such as the Celica to
sustain profitability, look for large gains in the GM camp this month
as GM continues to widen the gap against second-runner Toyota. Hybrids
can only exist solely to cover up their abysmal fuel economy record on
SUV's for so long. With the escalating list of safety aberrations on
their flagship Prius, and the mounting public backlash against their
future, Toyota looks to be in large financial trouble in the near
future, the size of which only Enron can measure up to.

"Bodero" <bodero1@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1120183014.450246.6640@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...[color=blue]
> future, Toyota looks to be in large financial trouble in the near
> future, the size of which only Enron can measure up to.
>[/color]

Please share whatever it is you are smoking.

In article <1120183014.450246.6640@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
"Bodero" <bodero1@gmail.com> wrote:
[color=blue]
> There is an interesting article at The Auto Buzz, located at
> [url]http://theautobuzz.blogspot.com/2005/06/toyotas-tide-is-turning-brief-synopsis[/url]
> _30.html[/color]

I don't think I have ever read an article with so much misinformation and
just plain stupid assertions. I think the writer just made most of it up
as he or she was writing.

Merritt

"Bodero" <bodero1@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1120183014.450246.6640@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...[color=blue]
> There is an interesting article at The Auto Buzz, located at
>[/color]
[url]http://theautobuzz.blogspot.com/2005/06/toyotas-tide-is-turning-brief-synopsis_30.html[/url][color=blue]
> :
>
> As any individual who has paid close attention to the automotive
> industry can tell you, the cyclical nature has brought boom and bust to
> almost all major automakers, save two. Those two, BMW and Toyota, have
> enjoyed a period of steady growth since both companies' inceptions in
> the late 1950's. While BMW is still on track for another year of
> increasing profits, this article will focus on what looks to be an
> unlikely shadow in the 21st century automotive industry - once mighty
> Toyota.
>[/color]
[snip]

Or maybe the tide's not turning. If you read the article at autobuzz, I
recommend you follow the links. I didn't do this exhaustively but the three
that I did follow didn't support the points made in the article (and one
link had absolutely nothing to do with the point at hand). For example, if
you look at this paragraph from autobuzz's article:

"Soon the reports started rolling in that hybrids were dangerous. EMT
workers were scared to touch them at accident scenes, with batteries filled
with gasoline with enough voltage to shock and kill a paramedic. Because the
vehicles do not have a transmission, the electric motors can propel the
vehicles down the road at tremendous rates of speed without warning.
Emergency workers were trained not to touch Priuses, for fear of any number
of dangerous incidents to put their lives in jeopardy. "
and follow the "hybrids are dangerous" link, this is the first mention of
Toyota in the linked article:

"A Montgomery County firefighter, for instance, noticed something strange
recently when he approached a wrecked car. Though the engine was shut off,
the injured driver kept her foot on the brake. It turned out the car was
still running on silent electric power and could have surged forward,
hitting rescuers or bystanders.
The car was a Toyota Prius, a gasoline-electric hybrid vehicle that uses
battery power at low speeds. "We had talked about it in training and there
it was," said Lt. Monte Fitch, a rescue instructor with the Montgomery
County fire department who took that report from one of his trainees."

No mention that there was an actual problem, just a woman taking a
precaution. She'd have had to put her foot on the accelerator to get it to
move forward. Bear in mind that "engine shut off" doesn't mean "car not in
run mode," it means the software had turned off the gas motor only. The car
would presumably be safe if the key was switched to "Off" (nothing in the
article contradicts this supposition). Of course, a plain gas-powered car
can remain running and in-gear, too, after an accident. Nor did the linked
articles support the idea that "emergency workers were trained not to touch
Priuses." A paragraph later, we find:

"Both Toyota and Honda, the only companies currently selling hybrids, win
high praise from rescue workers for marking high-voltage parts with blaze
orange and for engineering their cars with safety in mind. For instance, the
powerful batteries are not grounded to the frame, so there is little danger
someone could be electrocuted simply by touching a wrecked car."

Between the off-base links and the gratuitous digs at well-known liberals,
I'd say the author of this article had an agenda of his own; maybe he's
probably a GM Vice President. Or maybe the author was just incompetent.
Well, that could be a GM Vice President, too.

On Fri, 01 Jul 2005 02:57:13 +0000, Merritt Mullen wrote:
[color=blue]
> In article <1120183014.450246.6640@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
> "Bodero" <bodero1@gmail.com> wrote:
>[color=green]
>> There is an interesting article at The Auto Buzz, located at
>> [url]http://theautobuzz.blogspot.com/2005/06/toyotas-tide-is-turning-brief-synopsis[/url]
>> _30.html[/color]
>
> I don't think I have ever read an article with so much misinformation and
> just plain stupid assertions. I think the writer just made most of it up
> as he or she was writing.
>
> Merritt[/color]

Esp since the Prius is selling like hotcakes, and we just got our first
Highlander hybrid delivery yesterday. The Corollas are kind of slow, but
the Matrix is selling at about 3 a week. The highlaneder, 4 Runner Prius
and Camry are certainly not in danger of losing market share anytime soon.

And the OP's little article say "Toyota entered the American market on
April 1, 1973..." Gee, then where did my mom get her '72 Corona, my '72
Corona MKII, my friend's '70 Corolla wagon, and any number of '68...UP
Toyotas I have seen or driven? We didn't get Toys in my little corner of
the East Coast until about '69-69, but they were selling in Californis
before that (not much...'67?) Our dealer here had a 'lot truck', a '63
pickup based on the Land Cruiser. Um, with LHD. Nice.

"hachiroku" <ae86@Trueno.GTS> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.07.01.04.24.50.825057@Trueno.GTS...[color=blue]
> On Fri, 01 Jul 2005 02:57:13 +0000, Merritt Mullen wrote:
>[color=green]
>> In article <1120183014.450246.6640@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
>> "Bodero" <bodero1@gmail.com> wrote:
>>[color=darkred]
>>> There is an interesting article at The Auto Buzz, located at
>>> [url]http://theautobuzz.blogspot.com/2005/06/toyotas-tide-is-turning-brief-synopsis[/url]
>>> _30.html[/color]
>>
>> I don't think I have ever read an article with so much misinformation and
>> just plain stupid assertions. I think the writer just made most of it up
>> as he or she was writing.
>>
>> Merritt[/color]
>
> Esp since the Prius is selling like hotcakes, and we just got our first
> Highlander hybrid delivery yesterday. The Corollas are kind of slow, but
> the Matrix is selling at about 3 a week. The highlaneder, 4 Runner Prius
> and Camry are certainly not in danger of losing market share anytime soon.
>
> And the OP's little article say "Toyota entered the American market on
> April 1, 1973..." Gee, then where did my mom get her '72 Corona, my '72
> Corona MKII, my friend's '70 Corolla wagon, and any number of '68...UP
> Toyotas I have seen or driven? We didn't get Toys in my little corner of
> the East Coast until about '69-69, but they were selling in Californis
> before that (not much...'67?) Our dealer here had a 'lot truck', a '63
> pickup based on the Land Cruiser. Um, with LHD. Nice.
>[/color]

We had a '72 Carina. That was my 'first car' after Dad sold it to me to buy
his 77 Corolla. I must have been imagining the Carina then, but it was a
helluva nice imagination. 154,000 miles, mostly on Kendall 20-20W oil
(That's what Dad used in it until I bought it. I had to switch over to
10W-50!)

Charles of Kankakee

Me thinks this is wishful thinking!!! I have been looking on the net
& phone for an 05 Avalon limited in Phantom Gray here in Northern
California and just imagine - there are damned few limiteds any color
and not a big selection of Avalons anywhere.

As a point of reference (not that I'd buy one) to get same stuff in
Buick LaCrosse would be within a few bucks of the Avalon...

So sounds like someone is dreaming

Ron

"Bodero" <bodero1@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1120183014.450246.6640@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...[color=blue]
> There is an interesting article at The Auto Buzz, located at
> [url]http://theautobuzz.blogspot.com/2005/06/toyotas-tide-is-turning-brief-synopsis_30.html[/url]
> :
>
>Toyota officially entered the American market on April 1st, 1973, a
>date which will forever live in infamy to the executives at the Big
>Three, then General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler.[/color]

An interesting assertion - and wrong. My first ride in a Toyota was in 1969
with a high school buddy. His father worked at Toyota Town in New Castle,
DE. I believe it was a Corona, with a four cylinder and 4-speed tranny.
Modest styling, but the quality was evident even to a 17 year old like
myself.

doug

I may well be you who is dreaming. J D Powers just released
Vehicle Dependability Study shows the much less expensive LeSabre
outranked the Avalon. In total GM vehicles led in eight
segments, Ford in five, and Toyota in only four, the same as in
the last VDS survey. When it comes to trucks and vans, Toyotas
are in the 'also ran' category. Toyotas makes good stuff but now
that they are selling vehicles in the millions, like the big
boys, rather than the hundreds of thousands more of their 'bad'
ones are showing up as well. From what we see in our business
all manufactures are building good dependable vehicles today, the
only real difference is style and price. Why spend 20% to 30%
more hoping you will not get one of a particular manufactures bad
ones? Buy the one that best suits you needs and budget and don't
worry about what brand is on the hood, WBMA. ;)


mike hunt



ron wrote:[color=blue]
>
> Me thinks this is wishful thinking!!! I have been looking on the net
> & phone for an 05 Avalon limited in Phantom Gray here in Northern
> California and just imagine - there are damned few limiteds any color
> and not a big selection of Avalons anywhere.
>
> As a point of reference (not that I'd buy one) to get same stuff in
> Buick LaCrosse would be within a few bucks of the Avalon...
>
> So sounds like someone is dreaming
>
> Ron[/color]

My first Toyota was a 1959 Toyepet. A car built on a truck
chassis, because the Japanese cars were not up to American
standards.

A friend of mine owned a dodge dealership. He took on Toyota to
expand his business in cheap cars. I was well know in the area as
a high profile car guy. I paid him $900 with the stipulation he
would buy it back anytime up to a year at $900. I took it back
in less than six months.

His sons run the business now that he is gone and advertise it as
Toyotas oldest dealership in the US.


mike hunt



doug wrote:[color=blue]
>
> "Bodero" <bodero1@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1120183014.450246.6640@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...[color=green]
> > There is an interesting article at The Auto Buzz, located at
> > [url]http://theautobuzz.blogspot.com/2005/06/toyotas-tide-is-turning-brief-synopsis_30.html[/url]
> > :
> >
> >Toyota officially entered the American market on April 1st, 1973, a
> >date which will forever live in infamy to the executives at the Big
> >Three, then General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler.[/color]
>
> An interesting assertion - and wrong. My first ride in a Toyota was in 1969
> with a high school buddy. His father worked at Toyota Town in New Castle,
> DE. I believe it was a Corona, with a four cylinder and 4-speed tranny.
> Modest styling, but the quality was evident even to a 17 year old like
> myself.
>
> doug[/color]

In article <42C5D2F8.152ACDDE@ptdprolog.net>, [email]Mayor2@ptdprolog.net[/email]
wrote:
[color=blue]
> My first Toyota was a 1959 Toyepet. A car built on a truck
> chassis, because the Japanese cars were not up to American
> standards.
>
> A friend of mine owned a dodge dealership. He took on Toyota to
> expand his business in cheap cars. I was well know in the area as
> a high profile car guy. I paid him $900 with the stipulation he
> would buy it back anytime up to a year at $900. I took it back
> in less than six months.
>
> His sons run the business now that he is gone and advertise it as
> Toyotas oldest dealership in the US.
>
>
> mike hunt[/color]


Would you tell me/us about your meeting General Patton. You are 79 now
and in 1945 you would have been about 19 years old. If you don't mind.
I'm sort of a history buff and like to hear about these things. If you
don't want to talk about it I understand. I sometimes am kind of bold
in asking questions to a number of differnt foks. Sometimes they open
up and other times, well it's a bit of an embarrassment for me, LOL.



[color=blue]
>
>
>
> doug wrote:[color=green]
> >
> > "Bodero" <bodero1@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:1120183014.450246.6640@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...[color=darkred]
> > > There is an interesting article at The Auto Buzz, located at
> > > [url]http://theautobuzz.blogspot.com/2005/06/toyotas-tide-is-turning-brief-syno[/url]
> > > psis_30.html
> > > :
> > >
> > >Toyota officially entered the American market on April 1st, 1973, a
> > >date which will forever live in infamy to the executives at the Big
> > >Three, then General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler.[/color]
> >
> > An interesting assertion - and wrong. My first ride in a Toyota was in 1969
> > with a high school buddy. His father worked at Toyota Town in New Castle,
> > DE. I believe it was a Corona, with a four cylinder and 4-speed tranny.
> > Modest styling, but the quality was evident even to a 17 year old like
> > myself.
> >
> > doug[/color][/color]
--

I may be dreaming Mike but rest assured it will be in a Toyota. After
trying a Buick Riviera some years ago and passenger side door panel
fell off in my hands, ah well, you get my drift - JD Powers usually
rates most cars well in first year. Me & most others still have the
rose hue in our eyes and rate them all good. By the way, I don't
recall getting a JD Powers survey on the last 3 Toyotas..... Maybe
that is why

Ron

I was simply pointing out the results of their Vehicle
Dependability survey of 2002 vehicles, not their IQS survey, of
90 day new car owners.

Buick no longer sells a Riviera and has not for many years. My
reference was to vehicles available on the market today. I owed
three Lexus LS V8s, during the nineties, they too were not nearly
as good as the ones Lexus sell today, either. It is your money,
spend it where you wish, I could not care less.

I have been buying new cars every year for over 40 years. I have
yet to receive a survey from them. They only surveyed 51,000 of
the owners of the nearly 16,000,000 new vehicles sold in 2002

The guys in this NG like to refer to Powers and CR surveys, but
it seems they only like to do that when it favors their brand,
but not when it shows GM and Fords newer vehicles are performing
as well or better over time. LOL


mike hunt



ron wrote:[color=blue]
>
> I may be dreaming Mike but rest assured it will be in a Toyota. After
> trying a Buick Riviera some years ago and passenger side door panel
> fell off in my hands, ah well, you get my drift - JD Powers usually
> rates most cars well in first year. Me & most others still have the
> rose hue in our eyes and rate them all good. By the way, I don't
> recall getting a JD Powers survey on the last 3 Toyotas..... Maybe
> that is why
>
> Ron[/color]

I may well be you who is dreaming. J D Powers just released
Vehicle Dependability Study shows the much less expensive LeSabre
outranked the Avalon. In total GM vehicles led in eight
segments, Ford in five, and Toyota in only four, the same as in
the last VDS survey. When it comes to trucks and vans, Toyotas
are in the 'also ran' category. Toyotas makes good stuff but now
that they are selling vehicles in the millions, like the big
boys, rather than the hundreds of thousands more of their 'bad'
ones are showing up as well. From what we see in our business
all manufactures are building good dependable vehicles today, the
only real difference is style and price. Why spend 20% to 30%
more hoping you will not get one of a particular manufactures bad
ones? Buy the one that best suits you needs and budget and don't
worry about what brand is on the hood, WBMA. ;)


mike hunt

On Fri, 01 Jul 2005 19:34:16 -0400, Mayor2 wrote:
[color=blue]
> My first Toyota was a 1959 Toyepet. A car built on a truck chassis,
> because the Japanese cars were not up to American standards.[/color]

Damn, man, you had a Toyopet?! What a terrible car!

Where can I get one?
[color=blue]
>
> A friend of mine owned a dodge dealership. He took on Toyota to expand
> his business in cheap cars. I was well know in the area as a high profile
> car guy. I paid him $900 with the stipulation he would buy it back
> anytime up to a year at $900. I took it back in less than six months.
>
> His sons run the business now that he is gone and advertise it as Toyotas
> oldest dealership in the US.
>
>
> mike hunt
>
>
>
> doug wrote:[color=green]
>>
>> "Bodero" <bodero1@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1120183014.450246.6640@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...[color=darkred]
>> > There is an interesting article at The Auto Buzz, located at
>> > [url]http://theautobuzz.blogspot.com/2005/06/toyotas-tide-is-turning-brief-synopsis_30.html[/url]
>> > :
>> > :
>> >Toyota officially entered the American market on April 1st, 1973, a
>> >date which will forever live in infamy to the executives at the Big
>> >Three, then General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler.[/color]
>>
>> An interesting assertion - and wrong. My first ride in a Toyota was in
>> 1969 with a high school buddy. His father worked at Toyota Town in New
>> Castle, DE. I believe it was a Corona, with a four cylinder and 4-speed
>> tranny. Modest styling, but the quality was evident even to a 17 year
>> old like myself.
>>
>> doug[/color][/color]

"hachiroku" <ae86@Trueno.GTS> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.07.02.05.16.15.101551@Trueno.GTS...[color=blue]
> On Fri, 01 Jul 2005 19:34:16 -0400, Mayor2 wrote:
>[color=green]
>> My first Toyota was a 1959 Toyepet. A car built on a truck chassis,
>> because the Japanese cars were not up to American standards.[/color]
>
> Damn, man, you had a Toyopet?! What a terrible car!
>
> Where can I get one?
>[color=green]
>>
>> A friend of mine owned a dodge dealership. He took on Toyota to expand
>> his business in cheap cars. I was well know in the area as a high profile
>> car guy. I paid him $900 with the stipulation he would buy it back
>> anytime up to a year at $900. I took it back in less than six months.
>>
>> His sons run the business now that he is gone and advertise it as Toyotas
>> oldest dealership in the US.
>>
>>
>> mike hunt
>>
>>
>>
>> doug wrote:[color=darkred]
>>>
>>> "Bodero" <bodero1@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:1120183014.450246.6640@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>>> > There is an interesting article at The Auto Buzz, located at
>>> > [url]http://theautobuzz.blogspot.com/2005/06/toyotas-tide-is-turning-brief-synopsis_30.html[/url]
>>> > :
>>> > :
>>> >Toyota officially entered the American market on April 1st, 1973, a
>>> >date which will forever live in infamy to the executives at the Big
>>> >Three, then General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler.
>>>
>>> An interesting assertion - and wrong. My first ride in a Toyota was in
>>> 1969 with a high school buddy. His father worked at Toyota Town in New
>>> Castle, DE. I believe it was a Corona, with a four cylinder and 4-speed
>>> tranny. Modest styling, but the quality was evident even to a 17 year
>>> old like myself.
>>>
>>> doug[/color][/color]
>[/color]

The oldest Toyota I had ever seen was in 1976, one of my college professors
had boiught a '65 Crown new and was still driving it. Didn't seem any the
worse for wear, either. I actually once got to ride in it.

Charles of Kankakee