engine rattle

My oldest toyota, a 1990 camry, with 175,000 miles has developed
a sound in the engine.
If I accelerat briskly, I get a mettalic ratting sound from the motor.
It sounds like its from the driver side part of the engine.
If I accelerate moderately, you do not hear the rattle. I only
hear the noise, when the car is accellerating briskly.
It does not sound like its an internal part of motor, but an
external part.
Any ideas what it can be. ?
Otherwise the car runs like a top, except the last year, is has been burning
a bit more gas, and a little slower on pickup, but boy she still is a
runner, with everything running.
I even just invested in a new set of tires, since I have faith,
I can get at least another 30-50 thousand on this car. They dont make them
like this anymore.
Its the inline 4 cylinder engine with auto, front wheel drive.

Thanks to all

"J.Lef" <j.lef@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:YxWKe.6639$lK2.2734@trndny01...[color=blue]
> My oldest toyota, a 1990 camry, with 175,000 miles has developed
> a sound in the engine.
> If I accelerat briskly, I get a mettalic ratting sound from the motor.
> It sounds like its from the driver side part of the engine.
> If I accelerate moderately, you do not hear the rattle. I only
> hear the noise, when the car is accellerating briskly.
> It does not sound like its an internal part of motor, but an
> external part.
> Any ideas what it can be. ?
> Otherwise the car runs like a top, except the last year, is has been
> burning a bit more gas, and a little slower on pickup, but boy she still
> is a runner, with everything running.
> I even just invested in a new set of tires, since I have
> faith, I can get at least another 30-50 thousand on this car. They dont
> make them like this anymore.
> Its the inline 4 cylinder engine with auto, front wheel drive.
>
> Thanks to all[/color]

Does the nature of the sound change if you are accelerating in a curve,
especially in a right hand curve (if your car is LH drive)? If so, check
your CV joints.
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply

"J.Lef" <j.lef@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:YxWKe.6639$lK2.2734@trndny01...[color=blue]
> My oldest toyota, a 1990 camry, with 175,000 miles has developed
> a sound in the engine.
> If I accelerat briskly, I get a mettalic ratting sound from the motor.
> It sounds like its from the driver side part of the engine.
> If I accelerate moderately, you do not hear the rattle. I only
> hear the noise, when the car is accellerating briskly.
> It does not sound like its an internal part of motor, but an
> external part.
> Any ideas what it can be. ?
> Otherwise the car runs like a top, except the last year, is has been
> burning a bit more gas, and a little slower on pickup, but boy she still
> is a runner, with everything running.
> I even just invested in a new set of tires, since I have
> faith, I can get at least another 30-50 thousand on this car. They dont
> make them like this anymore.
> Its the inline 4 cylinder engine with auto, front wheel drive.
>
> Thanks to all[/color]

sounds like the symptoms of pinking (also known as pre - ignition or
detonation), the engine probably needs a decoke, the excess oil it is
burning has probably coated the combustion chamber, it then glows and
preignites the fuel, causing the metallic rattling sound. A swap to better
fuel and maybe a slight retard of the ignition timing may improve things.

mrcheerful

On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 05:34:48 +0000, J.Lef wrote:
[color=blue]
> My oldest toyota, a 1990 camry, with 175,000 miles has developed
> a sound in the engine.
> If I accelerat briskly, I get a mettalic ratting sound from the motor.
> It sounds like its from the driver side part of the engine.
> If I accelerate moderately, you do not hear the rattle. I only
> hear the noise, when the car is accellerating briskly.
> It does not sound like its an internal part of motor, but an
> external part.
> Any ideas what it can be. ?
> Otherwise the car runs like a top, except the last year, is has been burning
> a bit more gas, and a little slower on pickup, but boy she still is a
> runner, with everything running.
> I even just invested in a new set of tires, since I have faith,
> I can get at least another 30-50 thousand on this car. They dont make them
> like this anymore.
> Its the inline 4 cylinder engine with auto, front wheel drive.
>
> Thanks to all[/color]


This sounds like pinging.

Use a different/better/higher octane fuel (if you can do so without
remortgaging your home...)

If you live in an area serviced by Chevron, use mid or high-octane Chevron
gas. This has Techron, an additive used to remove carbon build-up, which
is causing your problem. If there aren't any Chevron stations in your
area, move...er, no...go to a good parts store and buy Techron on the
shelf. Add 1 bottle per every other tankful until the pinging stops, and
then once every 2-3 months thereafter depending on how much you drive.
This stuff is WONDERFUL!

I heard that other gas brands (all major, probably) also use something for
cleaning engine, but do not make it a point of advertising. Do not know if
this correct.


"HachiRoku" <Trueno@ae86.GTS> wrote in message
news:MfbLe.300$286.294@trndny09...[color=blue]
> On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 05:34:48 +0000, J.Lef wrote:
>[color=green]
> > My oldest toyota, a 1990 camry, with 175,000 miles has[/color][/color]
developed[color=blue][color=green]
> > a sound in the engine.
> > If I accelerat briskly, I get a mettalic ratting sound from the[/color][/color]
motor.[color=blue][color=green]
> > It sounds like its from the driver side part of the engine.
> > If I accelerate moderately, you do not hear the rattle. I[/color][/color]
only[color=blue][color=green]
> > hear the noise, when the car is accellerating briskly.
> > It does not sound like its an internal part of motor, but an
> > external part.
> > Any ideas what it can be. ?
> > Otherwise the car runs like a top, except the last year, is has been[/color][/color]
burning[color=blue][color=green]
> > a bit more gas, and a little slower on pickup, but boy she still is a
> > runner, with everything running.
> > I even just invested in a new set of tires, since I have[/color][/color]
faith,[color=blue][color=green]
> > I can get at least another 30-50 thousand on this car. They dont make[/color][/color]
them[color=blue][color=green]
> > like this anymore.
> > Its the inline 4 cylinder engine with auto, front wheel drive.
> >
> > Thanks to all[/color]
>
>
> This sounds like pinging.
>
> Use a different/better/higher octane fuel (if you can do so without
> remortgaging your home...)
>
> If you live in an area serviced by Chevron, use mid or high-octane Chevron
> gas. This has Techron, an additive used to remove carbon build-up, which
> is causing your problem. If there aren't any Chevron stations in your
> area, move...er, no...go to a good parts store and buy Techron on the
> shelf. Add 1 bottle per every other tankful until the pinging stops, and
> then once every 2-3 months thereafter depending on how much you drive.
> This stuff is WONDERFUL![/color]

"J.Lef" <j.lef@verizon.net> writes:[color=blue]
> My oldest toyota, a 1990 camry, with 175,000 miles has developed
> a sound in the engine.
> If I accelerat briskly, I get a mettalic ratting sound from the motor.
> It sounds like its from the driver side part of the engine.
> If I accelerate moderately, you do not hear the rattle. I only
> hear the noise, when the car is accellerating briskly.
> It does not sound like its an internal part of motor, but an
> external part.
> Any ideas what it can be. ?
> Otherwise the car runs like a top, except the last year, is has been burning
> a bit more gas, and a little slower on pickup, but boy she still is a
> runner, with everything running.
> I even just invested in a new set of tires, since I have faith,
> I can get at least another 30-50 thousand on this car. They dont make them
> like this anymore.
> Its the inline 4 cylinder engine with auto, front wheel drive.[/color]

My Dodge Colt Vista has a heat shield over the manifold that rusted
after 10 years and started to rattle. The fix was some big washers
over the bolts.

I'd check the exhaust system as well. Perhaps a hanger has rusted
through and broken away.

--
Ken Goldman [email]kgold@watson.ibm.com[/email] 914-784-7646

On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 04:08:10 +0000, vmkng wrote:
[color=blue]
> I heard that other gas brands (all major, probably) also use something for
> cleaning engine, but do not make it a point of advertising. Do not know if
> this correct.[/color]

They all have 'detergents', but I know that Techron is specifically
designed to soften and remove carbon build-up.[color=blue]
>
>
> "HachiRoku" <Trueno@ae86.GTS> wrote in message
> news:MfbLe.300$286.294@trndny09...[color=green]
>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 05:34:48 +0000, J.Lef wrote:
>>[color=darkred]
>> > My oldest toyota, a 1990 camry, with 175,000 miles has[/color][/color]
> developed[color=green][color=darkred]
>> > a sound in the engine.
>> > If I accelerat briskly, I get a mettalic ratting sound from the[/color][/color]
> motor.[color=green][color=darkred]
>> > It sounds like its from the driver side part of the engine.
>> > If I accelerate moderately, you do not hear the rattle. I[/color][/color]
> only[color=green][color=darkred]
>> > hear the noise, when the car is accellerating briskly.
>> > It does not sound like its an internal part of motor, but
>> > an
>> > external part.
>> > Any ideas what it can be. ?
>> > Otherwise the car runs like a top, except the last year, is has been[/color][/color]
> burning[color=green][color=darkred]
>> > a bit more gas, and a little slower on pickup, but boy she still is a
>> > runner, with everything running.
>> > I even just invested in a new set of tires, since I have[/color][/color]
> faith,[color=green][color=darkred]
>> > I can get at least another 30-50 thousand on this car. They dont make[/color][/color]
> them[color=green][color=darkred]
>> > like this anymore.
>> > Its the inline 4 cylinder engine with auto, front wheel
>> > drive.
>> >
>> > Thanks to all[/color]
>>
>>
>> This sounds like pinging.
>>
>> Use a different/better/higher octane fuel (if you can do so without
>> remortgaging your home...)
>>
>> If you live in an area serviced by Chevron, use mid or high-octane
>> Chevron gas. This has Techron, an additive used to remove carbon
>> build-up, which is causing your problem. If there aren't any Chevron
>> stations in your area, move...er, no...go to a good parts store and buy
>> Techron on the shelf. Add 1 bottle per every other tankful until the
>> pinging stops, and then once every 2-3 months thereafter depending on
>> how much you drive. This stuff is WONDERFUL![/color][/color]

..>[color=blue]
> sounds like the symptoms of pinking (also known as pre - ignition or
> detonation), the engine probably needs a decoke, the excess oil it is
> burning has probably coated the combustion chamber, it then glows and
> preignites the fuel, causing the metallic rattling sound. A swap to
> better fuel and maybe a slight retard of the ignition timing may improve
> things.
>
> mrcheerful[/color]

Thanks for all replies. I never would have imagined I
was having pinging, because I have heard this in other engines, and didnt
think this was it.
However, I wanted to try the possible simplest
solution first, and waited till fuel tank was down to about an eighth full,
and then filled it with super unleaded. Miraculously the rattling has
stopped. I have floored the engine a number of times, to try and get the
rattle, but it has been over a hundred and fifty miles and cant hear.
So, I am hoping this is the problem. However, I hate to
pay an extra thirty cents or so a gallon.

One question, could the situation that had created the
pinking, also cause the engine, to not get as many mpg as it used to. Up
until a year or two ago, I was getting a combined mileage of around 25 mpg.
And straight hiway runs I could get well over thirty miles a gallon. Its
been down to about 15 -17 mpg. But it seems like with this new super fuel,
My mileage is picking up. Is this possible?

Much regards to all.[color=blue]
>
>[/color]

"J.Lef" <j.lef@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:bNcOe.1826$IG2.1820@trndny01...[color=blue]
>.>[color=green]
>> sounds like the symptoms of pinking (also known as pre - ignition or
>> detonation), the engine probably needs a decoke, the excess oil it is
>> burning has probably coated the combustion chamber, it then glows and
>> preignites the fuel, causing the metallic rattling sound. A swap to
>> better fuel and maybe a slight retard of the ignition timing may improve
>> things.
>>
>> mrcheerful[/color]
>
> Thanks for all replies. I never would have imagined
> I was having pinging, because I have heard this in other engines, and
> didnt think this was it.
> However, I wanted to try the possible simplest
> solution first, and waited till fuel tank was down to about an eighth
> full, and then filled it with super unleaded. Miraculously the rattling
> has stopped. I have floored the engine a number of times, to try and get
> the rattle, but it has been over a hundred and fifty miles and cant hear.
> So, I am hoping this is the problem. However, I hate to
> pay an extra thirty cents or so a gallon.
>
> One question, could the situation that had created the
> pinking, also cause the engine, to not get as many mpg as it used to. Up
> until a year or two ago, I was getting a combined mileage of around 25
> mpg. And straight hiway runs I could get well over thirty miles a gallon.
> Its been down to about 15 -17 mpg. But it seems like with this new super
> fuel, My mileage is picking up. Is this possible?
>
> Much regards to all.[color=green]
>>[/color][/color]
If using higher octane fuel cured the problem, then check ignition timing to
see if it is too advanced. If the timing is per spec, then you may have
deposits in the engine as mrcheerful described.

You can try some off-the shelf engine cleaners but their effectiveness is
usually limited in removing deposits. I've heard good things about Motorvac
so it may be worth a try.

The reason you fuel mileage improved is that an engine that is pinging is
not producing power so you tend to press harder on the throttle. If the
engine is running properly then you won't have the tendency to press harder
on the pedal.
--
Ray O
correct the return address punctuation to reply

"Ray O" <rokigawa@tristarassociatesDOT.com> wrote in message
news:e32c3$4309645c$180fead6$2710@msgid.meganewsservers.com...[color=blue]
>
> "J.Lef" <j.lef@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:bNcOe.1826$IG2.1820@trndny01...[color=green]
>>.>[color=darkred]
>>> sounds like the symptoms of pinking (also known as pre - ignition or
>>> detonation), the engine probably needs a decoke, the excess oil it is
>>> burning has probably coated the combustion chamber, it then glows and
>>> preignites the fuel, causing the metallic rattling sound. A swap to
>>> better fuel and maybe a slight retard of the ignition timing may improve
>>> things.
>>>
>>> mrcheerful[/color]
>>
>> Thanks for all replies. I never would have imagined
>> I was having pinging, because I have heard this in other engines, and
>> didnt think this was it.
>> However, I wanted to try the possible simplest
>> solution first, and waited till fuel tank was down to about an eighth
>> full, and then filled it with super unleaded. Miraculously the rattling
>> has stopped. I have floored the engine a number of times, to try and get
>> the rattle, but it has been over a hundred and fifty miles and cant
>> hear.
>> So, I am hoping this is the problem. However, I hate to
>> pay an extra thirty cents or so a gallon.
>>
>> One question, could the situation that had created the
>> pinking, also cause the engine, to not get as many mpg as it used to.
>> Up until a year or two ago, I was getting a combined mileage of around 25
>> mpg. And straight hiway runs I could get well over thirty miles a gallon.
>> Its been down to about 15 -17 mpg. But it seems like with this new super
>> fuel, My mileage is picking up. Is this possible?
>>
>> Much regards to all.[color=darkred]
>>>[/color][/color]
> If using higher octane fuel cured the problem, then check ignition timing
> to see if it is too advanced. If the timing is per spec, then you may
> have deposits in the engine as mrcheerful described.
>
> You can try some off-the shelf engine cleaners but their effectiveness is
> usually limited in removing deposits. I've heard good things about
> Motorvac so it may be worth a try.
>
> The reason you fuel mileage improved is that an engine that is pinging is
> not producing power so you tend to press harder on the throttle. If the
> engine is running properly then you won't have the tendency to press
> harder on the pedal.
> --
> Ray O[/color]

the reason for less power (hence less MPG) is that when the pinging occurs
it is the same effect as very advanced ignition timing, the engine is nearly
trying to run backwards, so a lot of the power of the burning fuel is trying
to push the piston back, rather than forward, this is also the reason it
gets hotter than normal, which makes the pinging worse, if you continue to
force the engine when it is pinging, it is quite possible to melt pistons,
valves and cylinder heads/gaskets. So a non pinging engine is more
economical.
the better fuel reduces pinging by suppressing the glowing carbon in the
cylinders (the cause of the pinging) The real answer is clean out the coke
and check the timing and use the recommended grade of fuel, it may be more
economical just to use better fuel, or at least use it every other tankful.

mrcheerful

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 04:47:03 +0000, J.Lef wrote:
[color=blue]
> .>[color=green]
>> sounds like the symptoms of pinking (also known as pre - ignition or
>> detonation), the engine probably needs a decoke, the excess oil it is
>> burning has probably coated the combustion chamber, it then glows and
>> preignites the fuel, causing the metallic rattling sound. A swap to
>> better fuel and maybe a slight retard of the ignition timing may improve
>> things.
>>
>> mrcheerful[/color]
>
> Thanks for all replies. I never would have imagined I
> was having pinging, because I have heard this in other engines, and didnt
> think this was it.
> However, I wanted to try the possible simplest
> solution first, and waited till fuel tank was down to about an eighth full,
> and then filled it with super unleaded. Miraculously the rattling has
> stopped. I have floored the engine a number of times, to try and get the
> rattle, but it has been over a hundred and fifty miles and cant hear.
> So, I am hoping this is the problem. However, I hate to
> pay an extra thirty cents or so a gallon.
>
> One question, could the situation that had created the
> pinking, also cause the engine, to not get as many mpg as it used to. Up
> until a year or two ago, I was getting a combined mileage of around 25 mpg.
> And straight hiway runs I could get well over thirty miles a gallon. Its
> been down to about 15 -17 mpg. But it seems like with this new super fuel,
> My mileage is picking up. Is this possible?
>
> Much regards to all.[color=green]
>>
>>[/color][/color]
few things to try:

I run ALL my cars on Super, even my '95 Tercel. People tell me I'm
throwing my $$$ away, but I only had this problem during the last 'fuel
shortage' when I went to regular for a while. Never again. With ALL my
Toyotas, I have noticed I consistantly get 4-6 MPG more than people I know
with similar cars, with similar maintenance.

You can try adding Techron or using Chevron gas with Techron in it. This
will clean up any deposits in the engine. Or, you can have it BG'd, maybe
by your dealer. They put a solution in it and it softens and removes the
carbon deposits. When the techs run the car around the lot afterwards you
wonder what the hell blew in the motor until it burns away...

As far as fuel, don't want to pony up the extra $$$? I always keep a full
tank; it keeps my tank from rusting, and when I don't have any money, I
still have fuel! (an old habit from my teenage days when we used to sfrape
to buy gas after the FIRST oil crisis...) So what you can do is, if you
want to run regular...fill the tank with mid grade. On the next fill, make
it regular...on the next mid-grade...etc. I run higher octane so I use
Mid-grade and super on alternate fill ups. I figure I run 91 Octane all
the time. In the other scenario, you would be running 88 octane.

"HachiRoku" <Trueno@ae86.GTS> wrote in message
news:0FvOe.2132$k92.1965@trndny05...[color=blue]
> On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 04:47:03 +0000, J.Lef wrote:
>[color=green]
>> .>[color=darkred]
>>> sounds like the symptoms of pinking (also known as pre - ignition or
>>> detonation), the engine probably needs a decoke, the excess oil it is
>>> burning has probably coated the combustion chamber, it then glows and
>>> preignites the fuel, causing the metallic rattling sound. A swap to
>>> better fuel and maybe a slight retard of the ignition timing may improve
>>> things.
>>>
>>> mrcheerful[/color]
>>
>> Thanks for all replies. I never would have
>> imagined I
>> was having pinging, because I have heard this in other engines, and didnt
>> think this was it.
>> However, I wanted to try the possible simplest
>> solution first, and waited till fuel tank was down to about an eighth
>> full,
>> and then filled it with super unleaded. Miraculously the rattling has
>> stopped. I have floored the engine a number of times, to try and get the
>> rattle, but it has been over a hundred and fifty miles and cant hear.
>> So, I am hoping this is the problem. However, I hate
>> to
>> pay an extra thirty cents or so a gallon.
>>
>> One question, could the situation that had created the
>> pinking, also cause the engine, to not get as many mpg as it used to.
>> Up
>> until a year or two ago, I was getting a combined mileage of around 25
>> mpg.
>> And straight hiway runs I could get well over thirty miles a gallon. Its
>> been down to about 15 -17 mpg. But it seems like with this new super
>> fuel,
>> My mileage is picking up. Is this possible?
>>
>> Much regards to all.[color=darkred]
>>>
>>>[/color][/color]
> few things to try:
>
> I run ALL my cars on Super, even my '95 Tercel. People tell me I'm
> throwing my $$$ away, but I only had this problem during the last 'fuel
> shortage' when I went to regular for a while. Never again. With ALL my
> Toyotas, I have noticed I consistantly get 4-6 MPG more than people I know
> with similar cars, with similar maintenance.
>
> You can try adding Techron or using Chevron gas with Techron in it. This
> will clean up any deposits in the engine. Or, you can have it BG'd, maybe
> by your dealer. They put a solution in it and it softens and removes the
> carbon deposits. When the techs run the car around the lot afterwards you
> wonder what the hell blew in the motor until it burns away...
>
> As far as fuel, don't want to pony up the extra $$$? I always keep a full
> tank; it keeps my tank from rusting, and when I don't have any money, I
> still have fuel! (an old habit from my teenage days when we used to sfrape
> to buy gas after the FIRST oil crisis...) So what you can do is, if you
> want to run regular...fill the tank with mid grade. On the next fill, make
> it regular...on the next mid-grade...etc. I run higher octane so I use
> Mid-grade and super on alternate fill ups. I figure I run 91 Octane all
> the time. In the other scenario, you would be running 88 octane.[/color]

Good grief 88 - 91 ? I am running the Lexus on 97 in the UK, the lowest we
can get is 95. 88 must be like running on paraffin (kerosene), no wonder
the OP has got pinging !!

mrcheerful

<snip>
[color=blue]
> Good grief 88 - 91 ? I am running the Lexus on 97 in the UK, the lowest
> we can get is 95. 88 must be like running on paraffin (kerosene), no
> wonder the OP has got pinging !!
>
> mrcheerful
>[/color]
I think there's more to it than than the octane reading. Here in NZ we have
the choice of 91, 96, or 98. Probably of a similar quality of the lower
octane fuel available in the US.

Greg.

"Greg" <not_here@nospam.com> wrote:
[color=blue]
><snip>
>[color=green]
>> Good grief 88 - 91 ? I am running the Lexus on 97 in the UK, the lowest
>> we can get is 95. 88 must be like running on paraffin (kerosene), no
>> wonder the OP has got pinging !!
>>
>> mrcheerful
>>[/color]
>I think there's more to it than than the octane reading. Here in NZ we have
>the choice of 91, 96, or 98. Probably of a similar quality of the lower
>octane fuel available in the US.
>
>Greg.
>
>[/color]
Yes, I believe there's at least a couple of rating charts for
Octane...(same thing, different numbers)
--

-Gord.
(use gordon in email)

On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 10:59:50 +1200, "Greg" <not_here@nospam.com>
wrote:
[color=blue][color=green]
>> Good grief 88 - 91 ? I am running the Lexus on 97 in the UK, the lowest
>> we can get is 95. 88 must be like running on paraffin (kerosene), no
>> wonder the OP has got pinging !!
>>
>> mrcheerful
>>[/color]
>I think there's more to it than than the octane reading. Here in NZ we have
>the choice of 91, 96, or 98. Probably of a similar quality of the lower
>octane fuel available in the US.[/color]

Remember, that in NZ and the rest of the world they use either the
Motor Octane (MON) or Research Octane (RON) systems. In the USA, they
split the difference and invented a new system just to keep things
interesting - our Pump Octane. IIRC the formula is {MON+RON}/2 .

The usual selections are 87, 89, or 91/92. Most all new cars with
EFI only need 87, though you can pick up a bit of power using 91.
High altitude areas usually drop the octane for each of the selections
one point, because the local conditions don't warrant it.

And there are "selected stations" (meaning if too many stations sell
it nobody can make money at it, the volume is too low) with a separate
pump island off in the corner selling "Unleaded Racing Gas" at 106 or
108 octane. And you pay a stiff premium for the brew - I'll have to
go see what our local station is charging now....

This is for those people running old 60's Big-Block Detroit Muscle
or some twin-turbo Italian or German exotics - some high compression
cars start spitting out pistons if you don't feed them the good stuff.

--<< Bruce >>--

--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.