Bad shimmy upon heavy braking Toyota 4Runner (why?)

Can you help me diagnose what is causing heavy shimmy upon braking?

My '98 4Runner 2WD with about 50K miles is vibrating heavily when braking
at highway speeds. It does not vibrate under any other conditions.

The cause is perplexing me.
Here is all that I know.

- The 2WD 4Runner is not equipped with ABS braking
- The four wheel alignment was done about two years ago
- New tires about a year ago were dynamically balanced when mounted
- The front rotors are smooth with only a single circular scratch in one
- That one rotor scratch is so thin a pen tip won't even catch on it
- The rotors are 0.860 & 0.855 inches thick (min=0.787 inches)
- The pads are about 1/4 inch thick (minimum = 0.039 inches)
- Disk runout was 0.002 & 0.0025 inches (min=0.0028 inches)
- The rear brake drums were not checked
- I did not perform any other tests as I don't know of any other tests

One wierd thing happened while checking disk runout. There was a repeatable
half of a thousanth of an inch "blip" when I rotated the rotors. It was
always in the same spot on the passenger side rotor. I could hear a
scratching sound for a second when I saw the blip on the dial guage. Funny
thing was I could not see any "dent" or imperfection in the rotor at that
point. This rotor wasn't even the scratched rotor so it looked nearly brand
new (even after 50K miles).

Other than that blip, everything seemed normal.

At first I checked runout without removing the pads and without putting the
lug nuts on but the runout was changing until I realized the rotors were
only held on by the lug nuts so I removed the pads and jammed a screwdriver
into the rotor fins so I could torque down (83 foot pounds) the lug nuts
with a washer to prevent cracking the disks.

Do you have any idea what test to run to determine the cause of vibration?

Stu

> Can you help me diagnose what is causing heavy shimmy upon braking?[color=blue]
> Do you have any idea what test to run to determine the cause?[/color]

I forgot to mention that I evenly torqued down all six lug nuts to around
90 foot pounds (the specs call for 84 foot pounds but I can't get that
close of a granularity with my bending-bar-style torque wrench).

There is SOMETHING causing that vibration.

I guess I could shoot in the dark and have the rotors turned or replaced.
I don't mind that if they were the culprit. Or, I could shoot again and
have the alignment and wheel balancing done again.

But, like most of us, I'd like to actually diagnose what the CAUSE of the
problem is before I just start replacing & aligning stuff.

Any ideas how to diagnose the cause of a shimmy that only occurs during
breaking at highway speeds (it does not occur during normal around-town
driving).

Thanks in advance for your advice,
Stu

On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 08:59:21 GMT, "Stuart A. Bronstein"
<spamtrap@lexregia.com> wrote:
[color=blue][color=green]
>> Can you help me diagnose what is causing heavy shimmy upon braking?
>> Do you have any idea what test to run to determine the cause?[/color]
>
>I forgot to mention that I evenly torqued down all six lug nuts to around
>90 foot pounds (the specs call for 84 foot pounds but I can't get that
>close of a granularity with my bending-bar-style torque wrench).
>
>There is SOMETHING causing that vibration.[/color]

Are you sure your rotors are not warped? Can you find a runout gauge
and measure the runout? Do you know how to do this? I highly suspect
rotor runout.[color=blue]
>
>I guess I could shoot in the dark and have the rotors turned or replaced.
>I don't mind that if they were the culprit. Or, I could shoot again and
>have the alignment and wheel balancing done again.
>
>But, like most of us, I'd like to actually diagnose what the CAUSE of the
>problem is before I just start replacing & aligning stuff.
>
>Any ideas how to diagnose the cause of a shimmy that only occurs during
>breaking at highway speeds (it does not occur during normal around-town
>driving).[/color]

Maybe it does, but you're not going fast enough for the shockwaves to
make it to the passenger compartment.
[color=blue]
>Thanks in advance for your advice,
>Stu[/color]

Bowel Movement

"Stuart A. Bronstein" <spamtrap@lexregia.com> wrote in message
news:JhUMf.17398$2O6.9130@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...[color=blue][color=green]
>> Can you help me diagnose what is causing heavy shimmy upon braking?
>> Do you have any idea what test to run to determine the cause?[/color]
>
> I forgot to mention that I evenly torqued down all six lug nuts to around
> 90 foot pounds (the specs call for 84 foot pounds but I can't get that
> close of a granularity with my bending-bar-style torque wrench).
>
> There is SOMETHING causing that vibration.
>
> I guess I could shoot in the dark and have the rotors turned or replaced.
> I don't mind that if they were the culprit. Or, I could shoot again and
> have the alignment and wheel balancing done again.
>
> But, like most of us, I'd like to actually diagnose what the CAUSE of the
> problem is before I just start replacing & aligning stuff.
>
> Any ideas how to diagnose the cause of a shimmy that only occurs during
> breaking at highway speeds (it does not occur during normal around-town
> driving).
>
> Thanks in advance for your advice,
> Stu[/color]
You can narrow down which end, if a brake problem, by using emergency
brake--BE CAREFUL--to slow vehicle. If shimmy still shows, it's the rear;
else, it's the front. And if you find a caring soul who turns rotors, he
can, by trial-and-error, fasten the rotor on the lathe so as to minimize the
material needed to remove the runout you do have. (While rotors are being
turned, it won't hurt to 'plane' your disc pads on a flat concrete surface.
I've seen a few times where turning rotors didn't eliminate all the
pulsating; whereas, going back and planing the pads corrected it.) HTH, s

"Stuart A. Bronstein" <spamtrap@lexregia.com> wrote in message
news:m5UMf.17396$2O6.6452@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...[color=blue]
> Can you help me diagnose what is causing heavy shimmy upon braking?
>
> My '98 4Runner 2WD with about 50K miles is vibrating heavily when braking
> at highway speeds. It does not vibrate under any other conditions.
>
> The cause is perplexing me.
> Here is all that I know.
>
> - The 2WD 4Runner is not equipped with ABS braking
> - The four wheel alignment was done about two years ago
> - New tires about a year ago were dynamically balanced when mounted
> - The front rotors are smooth with only a single circular scratch in one
> - That one rotor scratch is so thin a pen tip won't even catch on it
> - The rotors are 0.860 & 0.855 inches thick (min=0.787 inches)
> - The pads are about 1/4 inch thick (minimum = 0.039 inches)
> - Disk runout was 0.002 & 0.0025 inches (min=0.0028 inches)
> - The rear brake drums were not checked
> - I did not perform any other tests as I don't know of any other tests
>
> One wierd thing happened while checking disk runout. There was a
> repeatable
> half of a thousanth of an inch "blip" when I rotated the rotors. It was
> always in the same spot on the passenger side rotor. I could hear a
> scratching sound for a second when I saw the blip on the dial guage. Funny
> thing was I could not see any "dent" or imperfection in the rotor at that
> point. This rotor wasn't even the scratched rotor so it looked nearly
> brand
> new (even after 50K miles).
>
> Other than that blip, everything seemed normal.
>
> At first I checked runout without removing the pads and without putting
> the
> lug nuts on but the runout was changing until I realized the rotors were
> only held on by the lug nuts so I removed the pads and jammed a
> screwdriver
> into the rotor fins so I could torque down (83 foot pounds) the lug nuts
> with a washer to prevent cracking the disks.
>
> Do you have any idea what test to run to determine the cause of vibration?
>
> Stu
>[/color]
You can narrow down which end, if a brake problem, by using
emergency
brake--BE CAREFUL--to slow vehicle. If shimmy still shows, it's the rear;
else, it's the front. And if you find a caring soul who turns rotors, he
can, by trial-and-error, fasten the rotor on the lathe so as to minimize the
material needed to remove the runout you do have. (While rotors are being
turned, it won't hurt to 'plane' your disc pads on a flat concrete surface.
I've seen a few times where turning rotors didn't eliminate all the
pulsating; whereas, going back and planing the pads corrected it.) HTH, s

Could also check for rotor thickness variation.
"Stuart A. Bronstein" <spamtrap@lexregia.com> wrote in message
news:m5UMf.17396$2O6.6452@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...[color=blue]
> Can you help me diagnose what is causing heavy shimmy upon braking?
>
> My '98 4Runner 2WD with about 50K miles is vibrating heavily when braking
> at highway speeds. It does not vibrate under any other conditions.
>
> The cause is perplexing me.
> Here is all that I know.
>
> - The 2WD 4Runner is not equipped with ABS braking
> - The four wheel alignment was done about two years ago
> - New tires about a year ago were dynamically balanced when mounted
> - The front rotors are smooth with only a single circular scratch in one
> - That one rotor scratch is so thin a pen tip won't even catch on it
> - The rotors are 0.860 & 0.855 inches thick (min=0.787 inches)
> - The pads are about 1/4 inch thick (minimum = 0.039 inches)
> - Disk runout was 0.002 & 0.0025 inches (min=0.0028 inches)
> - The rear brake drums were not checked
> - I did not perform any other tests as I don't know of any other tests
>
> One wierd thing happened while checking disk runout. There was a
> repeatable
> half of a thousanth of an inch "blip" when I rotated the rotors. It was
> always in the same spot on the passenger side rotor. I could hear a
> scratching sound for a second when I saw the blip on the dial guage. Funny
> thing was I could not see any "dent" or imperfection in the rotor at that
> point. This rotor wasn't even the scratched rotor so it looked nearly
> brand
> new (even after 50K miles).
>
> Other than that blip, everything seemed normal.
>
> At first I checked runout without removing the pads and without putting
> the
> lug nuts on but the runout was changing until I realized the rotors were
> only held on by the lug nuts so I removed the pads and jammed a
> screwdriver
> into the rotor fins so I could torque down (83 foot pounds) the lug nuts
> with a washer to prevent cracking the disks.
>
> Do you have any idea what test to run to determine the cause of vibration?
>
> Stu
>[/color]



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On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 08:59:21 GMT, "Stuart A. Bronstein"
<spamtrap@lexregia.com> wrote:
[color=blue][color=green]
>> Can you help me diagnose what is causing heavy shimmy upon braking?
>> Do you have any idea what test to run to determine the cause?[/color]
>
>I forgot to mention that I evenly torqued down all six lug nuts to around
>90 foot pounds (the specs call for 84 foot pounds but I can't get that
>close of a granularity with my bending-bar-style torque wrench).
>
>There is SOMETHING causing that vibration.
>
>I guess I could shoot in the dark and have the rotors turned or replaced.
>I don't mind that if they were the culprit. Or, I could shoot again and
>have the alignment and wheel balancing done again.
>
>But, like most of us, I'd like to actually diagnose what the CAUSE of the
>problem is before I just start replacing & aligning stuff.
>
>Any ideas how to diagnose the cause of a shimmy that only occurs during
>breaking at highway speeds (it does not occur during normal around-town
>driving).
>
>Thanks in advance for your advice,
>Stu[/color]


You pretty much have a rotor/pad problem here. I had a simular problem
with my wifes cherokee. The rotors were pretty flat when cold but
warped up when they got hot and caused a bad shimmy. I replaced rotors
and pads and the problem has never come back. One thing I did do
different (as I have with all of my vehicles) is that I do not use
hard OEM pads. I use a softer aftermarket one that may wear quicker
but they are easier on rotors and do not cause it to want to hot spot
as much which can lead to warpage and shimmy. Something has to "give"
up there and a hard pad is more senitive to imperfections in rotor
surface than softer pads and they tend to cause hooter "spots" on
rotor and hard pads cannot "flex" a bit to rotor irregularities and
therefore ride on these little high spots more when leads to hot spots
and have a different expansion rate than cooler parts of rotor and
lead to warpage and brake shudder/shimmy.

MB <"mab992@post.com"> wrote in
news:of4802dqt3mv0daj66rmt7m40boe4h51or@4ax.com:[color=blue]
> Are you sure your rotors are not warped? Can you find a runout gauge
> and measure the runout? Do you know how to do this? I highly suspect
> rotor runout.[/color]

Well, I'm not really an expert so maybe I messed up when I did check the
runout. What I did was remove the six lug nuts & the wheel, pull the clip
and two pad holding pins out and then the anti-rattle spring. Then I
removed the pads with their three anti-squeal shims together.

After looking at these 4-piston calipers in amazement (not a single bolt is
needed to remove and replace the pads!) I shoved a screwdriver in the rotor
fins and let it rotate until it rested against a hard spot on the 4Runner
so as to immobilize the freely spinning rotor. Then I put the lug nuts back
on with washers under them and torqued them down evenly in a six-pointed
star pattern to 84 foot pounds (actually my bending-bar torque wrench
doesn't get that accurate so I just went over that number to about 90 or
100 ft lbs).

I tried getting a one-inch micrometer on the rotor but the backing plate
was in my way so I shoved it in there and measured the thickness at only
one spot (in hind sight, I should have measured multiple spots). My bad.

Then I clamped the vise grips of the dial gauge above the rotor and
adjusted the steel neck (which was a pain) until the dial guage stopped
moving. I then spun the rotor with my hands and watched the needle flicker.
At first, it swung wildly because I didn't have the lug nuts on as I didn't
realize nothing was holding that rotor on but when I put the lug nuts on,
it swung ever so slightly to about three thousands of an inch.

So, to answer your question, I'm not sure because I'm an amateur, but, I
think I measured runout ok. That's the perplexing part. If it isn't runout,
what is it?

Symptoms:
- Around town, I do not feel the brake shudder or shimmy upon braking
- On the highway, it shudders mightily upon braking
- Shudder goes away immediately when I let up on the brakes

Housekeeping:
- I switched wheels left to right but the shudder on braking remained
- ABS isn't in the picture as this 4Runner isn't equipped with ABS
- The wheels were originally balanced about a year or so ago
- The four-wheel alignment was done a couple of years ago

So, in summary, I think I measured runout correctly but I may have goofed.

Stu

>> Can you help me diagnose what is causing heavy shimmy upon braking?[color=blue][color=green]
>> Do you have any idea what test to run to determine the cause?[/color][/color]
[color=blue]
> You can narrow down which end, if a brake problem, by using
> emergency brake ...[/color]

Ah, Excellent idea. I didn't think it was the rear only because they have
drum brakes and I didn't think brake shudder could be caused by drum brakes
(how?).

But this is a good isolation test if it works.

Is this the test:
- Drive on the highway in a safe spot with no traffic
- Press on the brakes (brake shimmy will occur)
- Let up on the brakes (brake shimmy stops)
- Pull hard on the emergency brake
- If the brake shimmy occurs, the problem is in the rear
- If there is no shudder, the problem is in the front

Is that the way to isolate the front from the rear as the cause of the
brake shudder?

Stu

SnoMan <admin@snoman.com> wrote in
news:52s802tsvtenr8i19cu4e4ihqfktv7h0bv@4ax.com:[color=blue]
> The rotors were pretty flat when cold but
> warped up when they got hot and caused a bad shimmy.
> I replaced rotors and pads and the problem has never come back.
> I do not use hard OEM pads. I use a softer aftermarket one[/color]

You may be on to something here SnoMan!

I bought the 4runner new and it has over 50K miles on it yet the pads are
thick as Ronald Reagan's hair. I was amazed at the condition of the pads
given the number of city miles that are on this vehicle (I don't take many
long trips so it's mostly around town driving). Maybe my Toyota OEM brake
pads glazed something somewhere to cause the brake shudder at highway
speeds.

Also, I had not thought about the runout being different when the rotors
are hot vs when they are cold. I guess I could drive hard and then quickly
stop and remove the wheels and check the runout but probably that is a
losing cause as they'd cool pretty quickly I'd think.

I'm getting closer and closer to just replacing the rotors and pads just to
see what happens although I don't like just replacing stuff that I didn't
diagnose as being faulty. I don't mind replacing faulty parts. But it feels
bad to replace good parts just on a whim.

Thanks for the advice.
Stu

"Shep" <djsljsrn@capital.net> wrote in
news:1141136768_9125@sp6iad.superfeed.net:
[color=blue]
> Could also check for rotor thickness variation.[/color]

Thanks Shep.
I did check only one spot since the rotors seemed in good shape visually.
That was when I still suspected runout but when I checked runout, it was
within spec (0.0028 inches).

In hind sight, I should have mic'd the rotors in multiple spots. I did put
a vernier caliper on the rotor but all that did was get the high spot.

I think I'll remove the wheels and mic the rotors in multiple spots again
but this time I think I'll remove the caliper (it's only four bolts ...
these Toyota 4-piston front calipers are beautiful to work on) so I can get
a good spot on the rotor.

Come to think of it, I may as well remove the rotor itself if I remove the
caliper as there is nothing holding them on (it's a 2WD 4Runner) at that
point. Then I can mic it all over the place.

Thanks for the advice, I know what I'll be doing this Saturday!
Stu

"sdlomi2" <sdlomi2@spam.yahoo.com> wrote in
news:gOWMf.1994$Xx6.141@fe06.lga:[color=blue]
> You can narrow down which end, if a brake problem, by using
> the emergency brake--BE CAREFUL--to slow vehicle.
> If shimmy still shows, it's the rear brakes; else, it's the front.[/color]

When I tried this test to isolate whether the brake shudder is coming from
the front or the rear todayI almost skidded out of control. Luckily nobody
was near me and the road was five lanes where I tested it.

I guess I should've waited until the roads were dry (I don't have ABS and
it's been raining for a while now). I'll try again when the roads are dry.

While I'm waiting, do you guys get your brake rotors and pads and shims
from the dealer or do you get them elsewhere? Any recommended Internet
suppliers for northern California?

I looked on froogle for pads, hardware, & rotors for:
- 1998 Toyota 4Runner 2WD 3RZ-FE stock everything
and I found a WIDE range of suppliers, Brembo, RayBestos, Akebono, EBC,
Hawk, etc.

Do you guys go to the dealer for OEM spec brake pads & rotors or do you
have a favorite internet supplier I can order from. Which brand do you go
for?

Thanks,
Stu

Bad shimmy under braking is a clasic sign of warped brake rotors.


</top post>

"Stuart A. Bronstein" <spamtrap@lexregia.com> wrote in message
news:m5UMf.17396$2O6.6452@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...[color=blue]
> Can you help me diagnose what is causing heavy shimmy upon braking?
>
> My '98 4Runner 2WD with about 50K miles is vibrating heavily when braking
> at highway speeds. It does not vibrate under any other conditions.
>
> The cause is perplexing me.
> Here is all that I know.
>
> - The 2WD 4Runner is not equipped with ABS braking
> - The four wheel alignment was done about two years ago
> - New tires about a year ago were dynamically balanced when mounted
> - The front rotors are smooth with only a single circular scratch in one
> - That one rotor scratch is so thin a pen tip won't even catch on it
> - The rotors are 0.860 & 0.855 inches thick (min=0.787 inches)
> - The pads are about 1/4 inch thick (minimum = 0.039 inches)
> - Disk runout was 0.002 & 0.0025 inches (min=0.0028 inches)
> - The rear brake drums were not checked
> - I did not perform any other tests as I don't know of any other tests
>
> One wierd thing happened while checking disk runout. There was a
> repeatable
> half of a thousanth of an inch "blip" when I rotated the rotors. It was
> always in the same spot on the passenger side rotor. I could hear a
> scratching sound for a second when I saw the blip on the dial guage. Funny
> thing was I could not see any "dent" or imperfection in the rotor at that
> point. This rotor wasn't even the scratched rotor so it looked nearly
> brand
> new (even after 50K miles).
>
> Other than that blip, everything seemed normal.
>
> At first I checked runout without removing the pads and without putting
> the
> lug nuts on but the runout was changing until I realized the rotors were
> only held on by the lug nuts so I removed the pads and jammed a
> screwdriver
> into the rotor fins so I could torque down (83 foot pounds) the lug nuts
> with a washer to prevent cracking the disks.
>
> Do you have any idea what test to run to determine the cause of vibration?
>
> Stu
>[/color]

On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 08:46:10 GMT, "Stuart A. Bronstein"
<spamtrap@lexregia.com> wrote:
[color=blue]
>Can you help me diagnose what is causing heavy shimmy upon braking?
>
>My '98 4Runner 2WD with about 50K miles is vibrating heavily when braking
>at highway speeds. It does not vibrate under any other conditions.
>
>The cause is perplexing me.[/color]

99% of these are rotor problems.
[color=blue]
>Here is all that I know.
>
>- The 2WD 4Runner is not equipped with ABS braking[/color]

Irrelevant. When ABS kicks in you know it.
[color=blue]
>- The four wheel alignment was done about two years ago[/color]

Irrelevant
[color=blue]
>- New tires about a year ago were dynamically balanced when mounted[/color]

Irrelevant if problem occurs only on braking.
[color=blue]
>- The front rotors are smooth with only a single circular scratch in one[/color]

Scratches are irrelevant.
[color=blue]
>- That one rotor scratch is so thin a pen tip won't even catch on it
>- The rotors are 0.860 & 0.855 inches thick (min=0.787 inches)[/color]

So they could be turned if you choose that route.
[color=blue]
>- The pads are about 1/4 inch thick (minimum = 0.039 inches)[/color]

Pad thickness is irrelevant to pulsation problems.
[color=blue]
>- Disk runout was 0.002 & 0.0025 inches (min=0.0028 inches)[/color]

Surely you meant MAX=.0028 inches. What is the thickness variation?
That's more critical than runout.
[color=blue]
>- The rear brake drums were not checked[/color]

Check the drums unless the problem includes steering wheel wobble
induced while braking in which case it is the front brakes for sure.
[color=blue]
>- I did not perform any other tests as I don't know of any other tests
>
>One wierd thing happened while checking disk runout. There was a repeatable
>half of a thousanth of an inch "blip" when I rotated the rotors. It was
>always in the same spot on the passenger side rotor.[/color]

Now you are looking at the problem! Get the rotors turned or replace
them.
[color=blue]
> I could hear a
>scratching sound for a second when I saw the blip on the dial guage. Funny
>thing was I could not see any "dent" or imperfection in the rotor at that
>point.[/color]

Its not easy to see half a thousandth. But a half thousandth
thickness variation will induce brake pulsation.
[color=blue]
> This rotor wasn't even the scratched rotor so it looked nearly brand
>new (even after 50K miles).
>
>Other than that blip, everything seemed normal.
>
>At first I checked runout without removing the pads and without putting the
>lug nuts on but the runout was changing until I realized the rotors were
>only held on by the lug nuts so I removed the pads and jammed a screwdriver
>into the rotor fins so I could torque down (83 foot pounds) the lug nuts
>with a washer to prevent cracking the disks.
>
>Do you have any idea what test to run to determine the cause of vibration?[/color]

You could check the rears by applying the parking brake at speed. Its
sort of tricky to do safely. Just get the rotors turned or replace
them and be done with it. If you replace them it will be a lot longer
before the pulsation comes back. Quality rotors such as Mountain or
Brembo brand or Toyota original equipment will go MUCH longer before
developing annoying pulsation than cheap units made in China. Quality
rotors should NOT be resurfaced out of the box. If somebody tells you
"See they have runout and need to be machined!" what is really
happening is they have a worn spindle or cones on their lathe and they
will machine runout into what was a quality piece. Shipping and
handling does NOT knock rotors out of round as was tested by Brake and
Front End magazine several years ago.

Don
[url]www.donsautomotive.com[/url]
[color=blue]
>Stu[/color]

Don <don@NO-SPAMdonsautomotive.com> wrote in
news:ol5a0254f3rlqqiaitr3ku60bgomtpnovd@4ax.com:[color=blue][color=green]
>>Do you have any idea what test to determine the cause of shimmy?[/color]
> A half thousandth thickness variation will induce brake pulsation.
> Check the rear drums unless the problem includes steering wheel wobble
> induced while braking in which case it is the front brakes for sure.
> You can check the rears by applying the parking brake at speed.[/color]

Thanks Don for your advice and thanks everyone else too!
I had never thought of these two tests:
- Use the rear brake to isolate the location of the shimmy
- Note whether the steering wheel or just the brakes are affected

After test driving just now I can emphatically say that not only does the
shuddering not occur with the rear wheels, but, with all this rain, I would
never recommend jamming on the rear brake at speed on the freeway as I
skidded sideways more than a few times during my 80 mph tests.

Also, the Toyota high-speed brake shudder DOES affect the steering wheel,
although I can feel the front end body of the 4Runner shake with the seat
of my pants more than I can feel it in the steering wheel. Still, I can
feel the shimmy ever so slightly in the steering wheel.

So, now it's time to turn them or replace them. I'm inclined to replace the
Toyota rotors as they've got 50,000 miles on them already and that's more
than they typically last according to the Toyota dealership when I priced
them today.
[color=blue]
> Buy quality rotors such as Mountain or Brembo brand or Toyota OEM.
> Rotors should NOT be resurfaced out of the box.
> Shipping and handling does NOT knock rotors out of round[/color]

I hate to buy without knowing what I'm buying. I already know there is no
government or private standard for brake pads so they could put toilet
paper in there and call it friction material. It's all advertising.

Is it the same with rotors? Is there a government or private standard for
rotors that I can rely on (like that of tires, oils, greases, etc.)?

Stu