Can you advise me if this is a BIG repair or a SMALL adjustment?
My daughter's 98 Toyota 4Runner clutch seems to have a problem.
On the flatland, the 4Runner appears normal yet when we drive up a few
thousand feet of hill on highway from Santa Cruz to San Jose, the
tachometer revs and the 4Runner appears to not have power but the engine is
whizzing along fine with no missing. I think her clutch is somehow
'slipping' whatever that actually means. A slight smell of something burnt
seems to be in the air but it's hard to tell for me because I don't know
what to look for.
Back in the flatlands of Monterey and Gilroy, the 4Runner appears fine
except my boss drove it in the parking lot and said he thought the clutch
was 'engaging too late' near the top of the let-go range. It seems fine to
me but I don't know what is actually broken.
Do you know if this indicates a major repair (transmission overhaul for
example) or a minor adjustment?
Do you know what tests I can run to find out what needs to be fixed?
"maryanne kehoe" <atlsvo@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:r10deovposr5$.1d6p1xttebwpy$.dlg@40tude.net...[color=blue]
> Can you advise me if this is a BIG repair or a SMALL adjustment?
> My daughter's 98 Toyota 4Runner clutch seems to have a problem.[/color]
A competent mechanic needs to examine it to be sure, Maryanne.
There are adjustments which can be made, and they may, or may not help, in
your case.
The slight scorching smell, plus your description of the engine revving
without really maintaining
a proportional speed, points toward clutch problems.
Clutches often fail because of wear of the abrasive lining material.
Eventually they all wear thin, but
if the driver has a habit of driving with a foot on the pedal, or otherwise
abusing the clutch, they can
wear out much faster.
A leaking rear crankshaft seal can allow oil to get onto the clutch lining
in some cases, and it will slip
like the dickens. In such a case, the seal has to be fixed and the clutch
replaced.
The car is giving you a warning and it is time to let someone competent have
a look. Not necessarily a
dealership, mind you...someone competent, and honest.
=======
=======
[email]HLS@nospam.nix[/email] wrote:[color=blue]
> A competent mechanic needs to examine it to be sure, Maryanne.
>
> There are adjustments which can be made, and they may, or may not help, in
> your case.
>
> The slight scorching smell, plus your description of the engine revving
> without really maintaining
> a proportional speed, points toward clutch problems.
>
> Clutches often fail because of wear of the abrasive lining material.
> Eventually they all wear thin, but
> if the driver has a habit of driving with a foot on the pedal, or otherwise
> abusing the clutch, they can
> wear out much faster.
>
> A leaking rear crankshaft seal can allow oil to get onto the clutch lining
> in some cases, and it will slip
> like the dickens. In such a case, the seal has to be fixed and the clutch
> replaced.
>
> The car is giving you a warning and it is time to let someone competent have
> a look. Not necessarily a
> dealership, mind you...someone competent, and honest.[/color]
========
========
On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 18:44:34 GMT, maryanne kehoe <atlsvo@webtv.net>
wrote:
[color=blue]
>Can you advise me if this is a BIG repair or a SMALL adjustment?[/color]
The clutch has no routine maintenance adjustments. There IS an
adjustment at the pedal but that will only need to be performed if
misadjusted through somebody's ignorance or the clutch master cylinder
is replaced.
[color=blue]
>My daughter's 98 Toyota 4Runner clutch seems to have a problem.
>On the flatland, the 4Runner appears normal yet when we drive up a few
>thousand feet of hill on highway from Santa Cruz to San Jose, the
>tachometer revs and the 4Runner appears to not have power but the engine is
>whizzing along fine with no missing. I think her clutch is somehow
>'slipping' whatever that actually means.[/color]
You are correct. It means there is no longer a solid direct
connection between the engine and transmission with the foot off the
clutch pedal.
[color=blue]
> A slight smell of something burnt[/color]
That's the friction material on the clutch.
[color=blue]
>seems to be in the air but it's hard to tell for me because I don't know
>what to look for.
>
>Back in the flatlands of Monterey and Gilroy, the 4Runner appears fine
>except my boss drove it in the parking lot and said he thought the clutch
>was 'engaging too late' near the top of the let-go range.[/color]
Indicator of worn-out clutch.
[color=blue]
> It seems fine to
>me but I don't know what is actually broken.
>
>Do you know if this indicates a major repair (transmission overhaul for
>example) or a minor adjustment?[/color]
Not a transmission overhaul but the transmission will have to come
out. It is several hundred dollars for the whole job. 4WD will be
more than 2WD. For insignificant additional cost the rear main (oil)
seal on the motor should be replaced proactively. You don't want to
have to pull the transmission, flywheel and clutch a second time
should it start leaking! Insist on ONLY quality new parts. Daiken,
Aisan, Exedy, genuine Toyota are all good. NO rebuilt advised!
[color=blue]
>Do you know what tests I can run to find out what needs to be fixed?[/color]
Set parking brake firmly, put in 5th gear and try to take off giving
it lots of gas. Car should stall abruptly -- in fact with a somewhat
violent "thud." If the motor continues to run at all with foot off
the clutch and in fifth gear the clutch is slipping. Do not prolong
this test or perform it repeatedly or you could burn out a still
serviceable clutch.
On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 18:44:34 GMT, maryanne kehoe <atlsvo@webtv.net>
wrote:
[color=blue]
>Can you advise me if this is a BIG repair or a SMALL adjustment?[/color]
There are no routine maintenance adjustments on this clutch. The only
adjustment is at the clutch pedal and it only needs to be if done if
somebody misadjusted it out of ignorance or the clutch master cylinder
is replaced.
[color=blue]
>My daughter's 98 Toyota 4Runner clutch seems to have a problem.
>On the flatland, the 4Runner appears normal yet when we drive up a few
>thousand feet of hill on highway from Santa Cruz to San Jose, the
>tachometer revs and the 4Runner appears to not have power but the engine is
>whizzing along fine with no missing. I think her clutch is somehow
>'slipping' whatever that actually means.[/color]
You are probably correct. It means the engine output and the input to
the transmission are not posititvely connected by the clutch -- the
connection is slipping which should only happen when the clutch pedal
is depressed.
[color=blue]
> A slight smell of something burnt[/color]
That's the clutch. Nasty smell aint't it! Lingers too.
[color=blue]
>seems to be in the air but it's hard to tell for me because I don't know
>what to look for.
>
>Back in the flatlands of Monterey and Gilroy, the 4Runner appears fine
>except my boss drove it in the parking lot and said he thought the clutch
>was 'engaging too late' near the top of the let-go range.[/color]
Typical of a worn clutch.
[color=blue]
> It seems fine to
>me but I don't know what is actually broken.
>
>Do you know if this indicates a major repair (transmission overhaul for
>example) or a minor adjustment?[/color]
Needs clutch replaced at several hundred dollars. Transmission is
presumably fine but will have to come out. If 4WD the job is more
expensive. I strongly recommend that the engine rear main (oil) seal
be replaced while accessible with everything apart for the clutch
replacement. The additional cost is insignificant and will prevent
having to perform the whole operation later should the seal leak
eventually. Quality parts only! No "rebuilt/remanufactured!"
Aisan, Daiken, Exedy are all good.
[color=blue]
>Do you know what tests I can run to find out what needs to be fixed?[/color]
Set the parking brake as tight as you can and attempt to take off in
fifth gear with lots of gas. The motor should stall abruptly -- even
somewhat violently. If you can make it continue to run -- even
briefly -- with your foot off the clutch pedal the clutch is slipping.
Do NOT prolong this test or perform it repeatedly or you can burn out
a still serviceable clutch.
=====
=====
maryanne kehoe wrote:[color=blue]
> Can you advise me if this is a BIG repair or a SMALL adjustment?
> My daughter's 98 Toyota 4Runner clutch seems to have a problem.
> On the flatland, the 4Runner appears normal yet when we drive up a few
> thousand feet of hill on highway from Santa Cruz to San Jose, the
> tachometer revs and the 4Runner appears to not have power but the engine is
> whizzing along fine with no missing. I think her clutch is somehow
> 'slipping' whatever that actually means. A slight smell of something burnt
> seems to be in the air but it's hard to tell for me because I don't know
> what to look for.
>
> Back in the flatlands of Monterey and Gilroy, the 4Runner appears fine
> except my boss drove it in the parking lot and said he thought the clutch
> was 'engaging too late' near the top of the let-go range. It seems fine to
> me but I don't know what is actually broken.
>
> Do you know if this indicates a major repair (transmission overhaul for
> example) or a minor adjustment?
>
> Do you know what tests I can run to find out what needs to be fixed?[/color]
=======
=======
"maryanne kehoe" <atlsvo@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:r10deovposr5$.1d6p1xttebwpy$.dlg@40tude.net...[color=blue]
> Can you advise me if this is a BIG repair or a SMALL adjustment?
> My daughter's 98 Toyota 4Runner clutch seems to have a problem.
> On the flatland, the 4Runner appears normal yet when we drive up a few
> thousand feet of hill on highway from Santa Cruz to San Jose, the
> tachometer revs and the 4Runner appears to not have power but the engine
> is
> whizzing along fine with no missing. I think her clutch is somehow
> 'slipping' whatever that actually means. A slight smell of something burnt
> seems to be in the air but it's hard to tell for me because I don't know
> what to look for.
>
> Back in the flatlands of Monterey and Gilroy, the 4Runner appears fine
> except my boss drove it in the parking lot and said he thought the clutch
> was 'engaging too late' near the top of the let-go range. It seems fine to
> me but I don't know what is actually broken.
>
> Do you know if this indicates a major repair (transmission overhaul for
> example) or a minor adjustment?
>
> Do you know what tests I can run to find out what needs to be fixed?[/color]
How many miles are on the vehicle? Is the vehicle often driven in stop and
go traffic or in hilly areas?
The possible causes of a slipping manual transmission clutch are worn clutch
and bad clutch master cylinder, although a bad master cylinder usually
causes difficult shifting, which you did not mention.
I believe that the bell housing between the transmission and engine has an
inspection cover so that the clutch can be visually inspected. The symptoms
you're describing usually indicate a worn clutch.
You didn't mention which engine the 4 Runner has, but a remote possibility
on a 4 cylinder is missing crankshaft thrust washers, although that also
sometimes lead to difficulty shifting. To check for this, with the engine
off, grasp the crankshaft pulley and see if there is any fore-aft play. If
there is, then the thrust washer(s) have fallen out. Repair is expensive.
--
Your daughter needs a new clutch, the clutch is Hydraulic there is no real
adjustment. The easiest way to know if you need a new clutch is: From a
Stop, Put it in 5th gear, if you can get it to move without stalling like if
you were in 1st gear, your clutch is bad. Not a cheap job, Big Repair if
you never taken down a transmission before.
Good Luck!!!
"maryanne kehoe" <atlsvo@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:r10deovposr5$.1d6p1xttebwpy$.dlg@40tude.net...[color=blue]
> Can you advise me if this is a BIG repair or a SMALL adjustment?
> My daughter's 98 Toyota 4Runner clutch seems to have a problem.
> On the flatland, the 4Runner appears normal yet when we drive up a few
> thousand feet of hill on highway from Santa Cruz to San Jose, the
> tachometer revs and the 4Runner appears to not have power but the engine
> is
> whizzing along fine with no missing. I think her clutch is somehow
> 'slipping' whatever that actually means. A slight smell of something burnt
> seems to be in the air but it's hard to tell for me because I don't know
> what to look for.
>
> Back in the flatlands of Monterey and Gilroy, the 4Runner appears fine
> except my boss drove it in the parking lot and said he thought the clutch
> was 'engaging too late' near the top of the let-go range. It seems fine to
> me but I don't know what is actually broken.
>
> Do you know if this indicates a major repair (transmission overhaul for
> example) or a minor adjustment?
>
> Do you know what tests I can run to find out what needs to be fixed?[/color]
"maryanne kehoe" <atlsvo@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:r10deovposr5$.1d6p1xttebwpy$.dlg@40tude.net...[color=blue]
> Can you advise me if this is a BIG repair or a SMALL adjustment?
> My daughter's 98 Toyota 4Runner clutch seems to have a problem.
> On the flatland, the 4Runner appears normal yet when we drive up a few
> thousand feet of hill on highway from Santa Cruz to San Jose, the
> tachometer revs and the 4Runner appears to not have power but the engine
> is
> whizzing along fine with no missing. I think her clutch is somehow
> 'slipping' whatever that actually means.[/color]
You've hit the nail squarely on the head -- the clutch is worn out. You or
she needs to replace the clutch immediately or risk damage to the flywheel.
Actually, the flywheel may already be damaged, but assuming it hasn't will
save a bundle on the repairs you most certainly are facing.
A slight smell of something burnt[color=blue]
> seems to be in the air but it's hard to tell for me because I don't know
> what to look for.
>
> Back in the flatlands of Monterey and Gilroy, the 4Runner appears fine
> except my boss drove it in the parking lot and said he thought the clutch
> was 'engaging too late' near the top of the let-go range. It seems fine to
> me but I don't know what is actually broken.
>[/color]
Your boss has described a classic symptom of a worn clutch. He actually
described ANOTHER symptom, you described one also. I have no doubt that you
need to have the clutch replaced.
On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 19:23:06 GMT, [email]HLS@nospam.nix[/email] wrote:[color=blue]
> Clutches often fail because of wear of the abrasive lining material.
> Eventually they all wear thin, but if the driver has a habit of
> driving with a foot on the pedal, or otherwise abusing the clutch[/color]
The 1998 2WD Toyota 4Runner has about 80K miles on it. Is that normal for a
clutch to start slipping at this point? We drive mostly in the flatlands
and do not carry heavy loads (loud screaming messy kid loads, but, not
heavy). We mostly go to school and the store and back kind of driving. Very
little is highway and very little is hills. Most is in the flatlands.
My daughter doesn't race her 98 2WD 4Runner, nor does she 'burn rubber' but
I have noticed for years she lets up on the clutch pedal rather harshly
such that the car lurches between gears, more so in the lower gears than in
the higher gears.
Do you think the way she lets up on the clutch caused it to wear too much?
On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 15:10:20 -0500, Don wrote:[color=blue][color=green]
>>Can you advise me if this is a BIG repair or a SMALL adjustment?[/color]
>
> The clutch has no routine maintenance adjustments. There IS an
> adjustment at the pedal but that will only need to be performed if
> misadjusted through somebody's ignorance or the clutch master cylinder
> is replaced.[/color]
I was hoping that all she needed to do was adjust the pedal so that the
clutch engaged sooner rather than later. We never touched this clutch pedal
adjustment before.
Do you think there's a chance that the only thing wrong is that the clutch
pedal somehow went out of whack and doesn't engage soon enough?
On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 18:41:52 -0500, Ray O wrote:[color=blue]
> How many miles are on the vehicle?[/color]
About 80 thousand original miles.
Is the vehicle often driven in stop and go traffic or in hilly areas?
Almost never in the hills but almost always in around-town driving. Almost
never highway driving. Since 1998, this Toyota 4Runner was used mostly for
dropping off the kids at school, soccer practice, band practice, etc. Now I
gave it to my daughter to drive as her car. She wanted a red Z but this is
what she gets! :)
[color=blue]
> The possible causes of a slipping manual transmission clutch are worn clutch
> and bad clutch master cylinder, although a bad master cylinder usually
> causes difficult shifting, which you did not mention.[/color]
The shifting seems to be easy between gears.
[color=blue]
> I believe that the bell housing between the transmission and engine has an
> inspection cover so that the clutch can be visually inspected.[/color]
This is good news. I will ask my neighbor to take a look. He is very
helpful but he doesn't know much about cars. We often help each other. I
help him with domestic items since he lost his wife and he helps me since
the divorce on those mechanical things men do so well.
What would he be looking for? Can the 'thickness' of a worn clutch be
inspected through this bell housing?
[color=blue]
> You didn't mention which engine the 4 Runner has, but a remote possibility
> on a 4 cylinder is missing crankshaft thrust washers, although that also
> sometimes lead to difficulty shifting. To check for this, with the engine
> off, grasp the crankshaft pulley and see if there is any fore-aft play. If
> there is, then the thrust washer(s) have fallen out. Repair is expensive.[/color]
This is excellent advice and is the kind of "transmission test" I was
looking for.
I have the 4 cylinder 2WD inexpensive Toyota 4Runner. I think the engine is
called "3RZFE 2.7L 4CYL" because that is what is hand written on a placard
under the hood. This stick-on placard also says the transmission is "W59"
if that helps someone.
I will print this advice and ask Bill, my neighbor, to check the crankshaft
thrust washers which might be missing (where would they have gone?)
On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 04:17:05 GMT, Joseph Wind wrote:[color=blue]
> Your daughter needs a new clutch, the clutch is Hydraulic there is no real
> adjustment. The easiest way to know if you need a new clutch is: From a
> Stop, Put it in 5th gear, if you can get it to move without stalling like if
> you were in 1st gear, your clutch is bad. Not a cheap job, Big Repair if
> you never taken down a transmission before.[/color]
Thank you for the clutch-testing advice!
That kind of testing advice is exactly what I was looking for. It's late
tonight and my daughter isn't at home (she is out driving her 4Runner
around way too late for my likes. In my day, we were home in bed by 11pm!).
Anyway, I'll print this out and when she gets back home, I'll test it with
her in the morning (after a stern talk about being out late!).
Thank you for the advice ... if I need the clutch replaced in this 1998 2WD
Toyota 4Runner "3RZFE 2.7L 4CYL W59" car, do you know how many hours that
would be? My local mechanic "shop rate" is $120 an hour so that would give
me an idea of how much it should cost.
On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 21:24:20 -0700, Jeff Strickland wrote:
[color=blue]
> Your Toyota 4Runner clutch is worn out.
> She needs to replace the clutch immediately or risk damage to the flywheel.
> Actually, the flywheel may already be damaged, but assuming it hasn't will
> save a bundle on the repairs you most certainly are facing.[/color]
Oh no.
If the clutch is still working (albeit only at the top end of the clutch
pedal let-go point), is it still damaging the flywheel?
Or does that damage occur even if the clutch is still working slightly (but
slipping on the steep hills over a few thousand feet high)?
maryanne kehoe wrote:[color=blue]
>
> On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 21:24:20 -0700, Jeff Strickland wrote:
>[color=green]
> > Your Toyota 4Runner clutch is worn out.
> > She needs to replace the clutch immediately or risk damage to the flywheel.
> > Actually, the flywheel may already be damaged, but assuming it hasn't will
> > save a bundle on the repairs you most certainly are facing.[/color]
>
> Oh no.
>
> If the clutch is still working (albeit only at the top end of the clutch
> pedal let-go point), is it still damaging the flywheel?
>
> Or does that damage occur even if the clutch is still working slightly (but
> slipping on the steep hills over a few thousand feet high)?[/color]
The clutch works much like the brakes only in reverse. Where brakes use
friction to stop your car the clutch uses friction to get it moving.
From you description the clutch is definitely slipping (RPM increases on
heavy loads). This means you need a new clutch. It is conceivable that
the mechanism that connects the clutch pedal to the actual clutch is not
working properly, but this is not very likely and at this point the
damage to the clutch has already been done. From your description it
won't be much longer till you won't be able to get the car to move at
all.
How long will your car last before you will not be able to drive it at
all? That depends on how much slipping of the clutch you do. Every time
you slip the clutch it shortens the life span. That means every time you
shift gears you are using up what little future exists for this clutch.
If you are very gentle with acceleration you may get it to last for
months. If you put the car in fifth gear apply the brakes rev up the
motor and let out the clutch you could probably burn up what's left of
this clutch in less than 2 minutes.
-jim
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