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Old 06-25-2005, 10:39 AM   #1 (permalink)
Kevin
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86 1 Ton -- How Much Refrigerant and Oil?

Hi,

I would like to know the amount of refrigerant and oil required for the
A/C system on this truck. To avoid confusion, I'm looking for the
documented amount of R-12 that should be installed.

TIA,
Kevin

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Old 06-25-2005, 01:35 PM   #2 (permalink)
SnoMan
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Re: 86 1 Ton -- How Much Refrigerant and Oil?

"Kevin" wrote:[color=blue]
> Hi,
>
> I would like to know the amount of refrigerant and oil
> required for the
> A/C system on this truck. To avoid confusion, I'm looking for
> the
> documented amount of R-12 that should be installed.
>
> TIA,
> Kevin[/color]

Have you tried looking for a service manula at the libray yet? Usually
when you repair a syetem you only add oil for the parts you change
(like compressor, condensor, receiver/dryer etc) and all together it
is usually in the 6 to 8 oz range. In your case there is no need to
add all new oil unless it has all new parts.

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Old 06-27-2005, 12:29 PM   #3 (permalink)
Kevin
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Re: 86 1 Ton -- How Much Refrigerant and Oil?

SnoMan,

Thanks. I asked this, as I have a manual... they refer all a/c work to
a professional. There is no sticker under the hood either.

This all goes back to trying to revive the a/c. For the last 10 years,
it has had a very slow leak (2-3 years before losing noticeable
cooling). I verified that it has noticeable pressure in the system,
although not enough to have good cooling. I think the system is
leaking down to a certain pressure and holds there. With the cost of
R-12, I thought about having the system evaced and using the
Interdynamics RKR-7 kit. Advance has this kit on sale until July 30.
I haven't done anything yet, but am exploring my options. This a/c has
some years on it, but really doesn't have a lot of time on the system.
I didn't really use it all that much over the years, although cycled it
a lot.

The compressor runs well, doesn't make a lot of noise, and the tube
going into the firewall is cool, not cold. I feel a little cool out of
the vent too. I think I'm still getting circulation and just low on
R-12, and for $30 plus whatever it costs to evac, I don't have a lot to
lose.

Has anyone out there used an ID kit, and what do you think of it? I'm
particularly interested in the stop leak capability. Perhaps I can
seal up this kind of leak without going into the system. If it blows
out, so what?

I was reading that you put in 80% of R-12 capacity and need to find out
how much goes in.

Kevin

SnoMan wrote:[color=blue]
> "Kevin" wrote:[color=green]
> > Hi,
> >
> > I would like to know the amount of refrigerant and oil
> > required for the
> > A/C system on this truck. To avoid confusion, I'm looking for
> > the
> > documented amount of R-12 that should be installed.
> >
> > TIA,
> > Kevin[/color]
>
> Have you tried looking for a service manula at the libray yet? Usually
> when you repair a syetem you only add oil for the parts you change
> (like compressor, condensor, receiver/dryer etc) and all together it
> is usually in the 6 to 8 oz range. In your case there is no need to
> add all new oil unless it has all new parts.
>
> --
> Posted using the [url]http://www.autoforumz.com[/url] interface, at author's request
> Articles individually checked for conformance to usenet standards
> Topic URL: [url]http://www.autoforumz.com/Toyota-86-Ton-Refrigerant-Oil-ftopict126128.html[/url]
> Visit Topic URL to contact author (reg. req'd). Report abuse: [url]http://www.autoforumz.com/eform.php?p=614698[/url][/color]

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Old 06-28-2005, 12:37 AM   #4 (permalink)
SnoMan
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Re: Re: 86 1 Ton -- How Much Refrigerant and Oil?

"" wrote:[color=blue]
> SnoMan,
>
> Thanks. I asked this, as I have a manual... they refer all
> a/c work to
> a professional. There is no sticker under the hood either.
>
> This all goes back to trying to revive the a/c. For the last
> 10 years,
> it has had a very slow leak (2-3 years before losing
> noticeable
> cooling). I verified that it has noticeable pressure in the
> system,
> although not enough to have good cooling. I think the system
> is
> leaking down to a certain pressure and holds there. With the
> cost of
> R-12, I thought about having the system evaced and using the
> Interdynamics RKR-7 kit. Advance has this kit on sale until
> July 30.
> I haven't done anything yet, but am exploring my options.
> This a/c has
> some years on it, but really doesn't have a lot of time on the
> system.
> I didn't really use it all that much over the years, although
> cycled it
> a lot.
>
> The compressor runs well, doesn't make a lot of noise, and the
> tube
> going into the firewall is cool, not cold. I feel a little
> cool out of
> the vent too. I think I'm still getting circulation and just
> low on
> R-12, and for $30 plus whatever it costs to evac, I don't have
> a lot to
> lose.
>
> Has anyone out there used an ID kit, and what do you think of
> it? I'm
> particularly interested in the stop leak capability. Perhaps
> I can
> seal up this kind of leak without going into the system. If
> it blows
> out, so what?
>
> I was reading that you put in 80% of R-12 capacity and need to
> find out
> how much goes in.
>
> Kevin
>
> SnoMan wrote:[color=green]
> > "Kevin" wrote:[/color]
>  > > Hi,
>  > >
>  > > I would like to know the amount of refrigerant and
> oil
>  > > required for the
>  > > A/C system on this truck. To avoid confusion, I'm
> looking for
>  > > the
>  > > documented amount of R-12 that should be installed.
>  > >
>  > > TIA,
>  > > Kevin[color=green]
> >
> > Have you tried looking for a service manula at the libray[/color]
> yet? Usually[color=green]
> > when you repair a syetem you only add oil for the parts you[/color]
> change[color=green]
> > (like compressor, condensor, receiver/dryer etc) and all[/color]
> together it[color=green]
> > is usually in the 6 to 8 oz range. In your case there is no[/color]
> need to[color=green]
> > add all new oil unless it has all new parts.
> >
> > --
> > Posted using the [url]http://www.autoforumz.com[/url] interface, at author's request
> > Articles individually checked for conformance to usenet[/color]
> standards[color=green]
> > Topic URL: [url]http://www.autoforumz.com/Toyota-86-Ton-Refrigerant-Oil-ftopict126128.html[/url]
> > Visit Topic URL to contact author (reg. req'd). Report abuse: [url]http://www.autoforumz.com/eform.php?p=614698[/url][/color][/color]

If you have a set of gages you can figure out the correct charge level
without a sticker. But, be advised that this kits use R134a and R134a
cools a good bit less and runs at a higher pressure than R12 in a old
R12 system so a slightly noisy compressor can get noisier and have a
shorter life yet. I advise against these converstions in older systems
unless you are starting with all new parts and even then it will not
cool as well as R12 did. You might check out R12a/EC12a as it works
excellant in old R12 systems and cools even better than R12 does.
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Old 06-28-2005, 09:02 AM   #5 (permalink)
Kevin
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Re: 86 1 Ton -- How Much Refrigerant and Oil?

The question is, are any of these legal? I see some postings and EPA
articles (yes, they are dated) that indicate the formulas that you
mention above to be illegal.

I want to do this the right AND legal way.

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Old 06-28-2005, 08:35 PM   #6 (permalink)
SnoMan
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Re: Re: 86 1 Ton -- How Much Refrigerant and Oil?

"" wrote:[color=blue]
> The question is, are any of these legal? I see some postings
> and EPA
> articles (yes, they are dated) that indicate the formulas that
> you
> mention above to be illegal.
>
> I want to do this the right AND legal way.[/color]

The EC12a hydrocarbon based ones are not illegal to use and are very
environmental freindly, they are just not EPA certified replacement
because of the fact that they are based on hydrocarbons and can burn
in open air when condition are right at ambent temps but not in a
closed system and when they do burn they give off no toxic gas at all,
unlike R12 and R134 which can kill you if you breath their byproducts
from burning in sufficent amounts. Personally I have a small stash of
R12 but I would not hesitate at all to use EC12 type freons in a R12
system long before I would use R134 in them.

--
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Articles individually checked for conformance to usenet standards
Topic URL: [url]http://www.autoforumz.com/Toyota-86-Ton-Refrigerant-Oil-ftopict126128.html[/url]
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Old 07-01-2005, 10:39 PM   #7 (permalink)
bluegirl
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Re: Re: 86 1 Ton -- How Much Refrigerant and Oil?

"" wrote:[color=blue]
> SnoMan,
>
> Thanks. I asked this, as I have a manual... they refer all
> a/c work to
> a professional. There is no sticker under the hood either.
>
> This all goes back to trying to revive the a/c. For the last
> 10 years,
> it has had a very slow leak (2-3 years before losing
> noticeable
> cooling). I verified that it has noticeable pressure in the
> system,
> although not enough to have good cooling. I think the system
> is
> leaking down to a certain pressure and holds there. With the
> cost of
> R-12, I thought about having the system evaced and using the
> Interdynamics RKR-7 kit. Advance has this kit on sale until
> July 30.
> I haven't done anything yet, but am exploring my options.
> This a/c has
> some years on it, but really doesn't have a lot of time on the
> system.
> I didn't really use it all that much over the years, although
> cycled it
> a lot.
>
> The compressor runs well, doesn't make a lot of noise, and the
> tube
> going into the firewall is cool, not cold. I feel a little
> cool out of
> the vent too. I think I'm still getting circulation and just
> low on
> R-12, and for $30 plus whatever it costs to evac, I don't have
> a lot to
> lose.
>
> Has anyone out there used an ID kit, and what do you think of
> it? I'm
> particularly interested in the stop leak capability. Perhaps
> I can
> seal up this kind of leak without going into the system. If
> it blows
> out, so what?
>
> I was reading that you put in 80% of R-12 capacity and need to
> find out
> how much goes in.
>
> Kevin
>
> SnoMan wrote:[color=green]
> > "Kevin" wrote:[/color]
>  > > Hi,
>  > >
>  > > I would like to know the amount of refrigerant and
> oil
>  > > required for the
>  > > A/C system on this truck. To avoid confusion, I'm
> looking for
>  > > the
>  > > documented amount of R-12 that should be installed.
>  > >
>  > > TIA,
>  > > Kevin[color=green]
> >
> > Have you tried looking for a service manula at the libray[/color]
> yet? Usually[color=green]
> > when you repair a syetem you only add oil for the parts you[/color]
> change[color=green]
> > (like compressor, condensor, receiver/dryer etc) and all[/color]
> together it[color=green]
> > is usually in the 6 to 8 oz range. In your case there is no[/color]
> need to[color=green]
> > add all new oil unless it has all new parts.
> >
> > --
> > Posted using the [url]http://www.autoforumz.com[/url] interface, at author's request
> > Articles individually checked for conformance to usenet[/color]
> standards[color=green]
> > Topic URL: [url]http://www.autoforumz.com/Toyota-86-Ton-Refrigerant-Oil-ftopict126128.html[/url]
> > Visit Topic URL to contact author (reg. req'd). Report abuse: [url]http://www.autoforumz.com/eform.php?p=614698[/url][/color][/color]

ok, if you want to convert to r134a which is now the choice of
manufactures. You should be able to look up on the emissions lable
that you should aready have for your r12 system, a rule of thumb when
you place the r134a into the system is that you use 5oz or 10% less
freon because r134a is a larger compound than r12 (PAG oil is notmally
used). If you do convert you need to completely evac the system that
you have now, which sounds like you donít have a leak since the cold
side line does get cool, it just needs to be completly recharged (to
check for leaks place a vacuum on it then turn off machine let it sit
for 10min or more and if it releases the vacuum then you do have a
leak). To convert you need to replace basically all of the parts in
the system. Now with other types of freon i donot recommend because
if you do ever bring that vehicle into a shop it will NEED a special
machine to recover that type of freon that most shops will not have
and that can be VERY costly. 134a does run a little warmer but not
too much to make a difference. Just whatever you actually do, DO NOT
combined freons!! Containenating freon is a very bad thing to do
because it is expensive to fixe with a special machine because it
CANNOT be recycled. To find out what the capacity of your system with
the r12 just go to your local dealer ship and they should give you the
capcities for r12 and they miht give you the actual capacity of the
134a system.
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Old 07-01-2005, 10:40 PM   #8 (permalink)
SnoMan
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Re: Re: 86 1 Ton -- How Much Refrigerant and Oil?

"bluegirl" wrote:[color=blue]
>ok, if you want to convert to r134a which is now the choice of
>manufactures.[/color]

It is not the "Choice" but the only EPA approved option at this time
that is not a blend of gasses. The performance of a R12 system will
degrade when R134 is used in it because R134a is about 12 to 15% less
effecient and also runs at 10 to 15% higher pressure too. Also, R134a
is not compatable with R12 oil and you have to add a oil to it to
halfway "bind" the old R12 oil to R134a to circulate it which means
you get a slight overcharge of oil too. New R134a cars have bigger
condensors and evaporators to make up for efficeincy loss and a
compressor to handle higher pressures too. Some R12 system have enough
reserve capacity by design that they will work okay with R134 but a
lot of them do not do too well. R134 should only be used as a last
resort and is best used if you drain old oil from system and use all
R134a oil in it to give it is best chance for long term survival. If
you use EC12a (or same thing under a different name) there is no oil
compatabilty issues and no loss of cooling either (you might even gain
a little too over R12)
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Old 07-02-2005, 09:06 AM   #9 (permalink)
Kevin
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Re: 86 1 Ton -- How Much Refrigerant and Oil?

If I have read the EPA documents correctly, it is ILLEGAL to mix
refrigerants.

BTW, my boss told me he is in a similar situation, perhaps even worse
off because his system was opened. He found a garage that will add
R-12 @ $25/lb. plus a $35 service fee.

Forget the R-134, I think I'll put some more R-12 in it. It should
only take a couple of lbs.

One more question... is there a stop leak for R-12 like R134? I do
have one of those leaks that is very slow and gets down to a certain
pressure and holds (ever have one of those tires that drops to 22 lbs.
and stays there?).

Kevin

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Old 07-02-2005, 12:18 PM   #10 (permalink)
Kevin
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Re: 86 1 Ton -- How Much Refrigerant and Oil?

Update....

Did a little more research here, and the EC12a option looks attractive.
I can get the system vacuumed for about $45 by a licensed shop, then
use something like the Duracool HC777. The cost may end up less.

When they vacuum the system, how much oil will be removed? Will I need
to add more?

This gets me in the mode where I can top it off if I need to. I'm just
tired of the R-12 exercise every couple of years and need something I
can work with legally.

I would like to hear of any success or failure stories for those of you
who have gone through the same changeover.

TIA,
Kevin

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Old 07-03-2005, 06:36 PM   #11 (permalink)
ChrisPoe
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Re: Re: 86 1 Ton -- How Much Refrigerant and Oil?

"" wrote:[color=blue]
> Update....
>
> Did a little more research here, and the EC12a option looks
> attractive.
> I can get the system vacuumed for about $45 by a licensed
> shop, then
> use something like the Duracool HC777. The cost may end up
> less.
>
> When they vacuum the system, how much oil will be removed?
> Will I need
> to add more?
>
> This gets me in the mode where I can top it off if I need to.
> I'm just
> tired of the R-12 exercise every couple of years and need
> something I
> can work with legally.
>
> I would like to hear of any success or failure stories for
> those of you
> who have gone through the same changeover.
>
> TIA,
> Kevin[/color]

Hi Kevin,

Just wondering if youíre aware that the Duracool stuff is
propane/isobutane (very flammable)
I wouldnít advise that you install it yourself, but if you do make
sure you wear protective goggles, gloves etc.

Also the charging kit by Duracool has those Quick Snap connectors..
the pro ones have a turning knob on top of them to push in the valve,
.. the quick snap ones donít.. they just have a push pin inside..

problem occurs if they donít fit properly.. the push pin pushes too
far sometimes.. the charging hose wonít snap on.. and forcing it on
will bend the little valve it pushes on.. so when you think youíre all
charged up and release the connector, everything comes out... this is
just my experience with the quick snap connectors.. I almost had it
happen, had I not gone to a shop to have the system tested throughly..


So if youíre still decided to do it yourself, make sure you donít push
that quick connector on with all your force if it wonít snap on
easily.. it should go on very easily.. If itís very close, you can
back out the R134a adapter a bit (unscrew it).. Also donít tighten
the adapters very hard at all, on the high side or low side, whichever
you use.. the more you tighten it, then more the pin will push on the
valve. Iíve read a lot of success stories, so this couldíve been just
my car that was different, but I had to replace the low side valve
completely.

As for the oil, check out [url]www.redtek.com[/url] they sell this "oil
analyzer" . RedTek is same as Duracool stuff pretty much.. and it
shows if you have enough oil in the system..

And for oil, Iíve read PolyMax2 [url]www.keep-it-kool.com[/url] is good for
everything, like R134a, R12, and HC(duracool). If you decide to
convert to R134a putting in R134a into a R12 system with PAG oil is
very bad apparently because it will break down fast from the remains
of the mineral oil. The PolyMax2 apparently solves this problem when
switching to R134a.

There are a lot of choices to be made.. Iíd recomment you get the HC
conversion done profesionally, then get the guy to test the hoses and
show you how to top it off yourself whenever needed. This way youíll
know itís legal and done right(provided you go to a good shop).. You
may also want to get an Electronic leak test.. down here it goes for
$50 which is not bad.. and theyíll tell you where the leak it.. you
can probably just patch it up with some JB Weld (glue stuff from Pep
Boys/Wal-Mart)

--
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Articles individually checked for conformance to usenet standards
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