$5k for 3psi?! I don't know where you're shopping but I paid $1800 on sale from a dealer for 7psi.
...then $75 more for 10psi, ended up with motor issues and got a +$10k repair for free.
warranty = priceless.
As far as turbo kits I would suggest Dezod or PTuning.
You do realize that while the price of the SC is a bit on the high side you're going to spend a lot more in the long run with engine building, management and tuning for a reliable turbo.
__________________ 06 NB tC - OG Team HAMSTER - SUPERCHARGED
btw, I'm going through a dealer here in santa monica, so as far as the supercharger, they say the warranty is only good if they install it themselves, and the cost of that is around $5,000. They have informed me that it is only putting out 3psi. Does a pulley void the warranty?
(now I am fully aware a turbo kit will void the warranty, I'm planning on doing it in a little while.)
The stock pulley is rated at 7psi but it fizzles out around 6 at red line. If you upgrade from the stock Bosch 102 by pass valve you'll get the full 7psi. If you want to remain stock looking get the Bosch 110 its identical on the outside to the oem spec'ed 102. I got the Forge 007 which is aluminum and adjustable.
As far as pulleys NST (nonstoptuning.com) makes a 9.5lb and a 12lb pulley. The 9.5lb pulley is safe to use on the TRD tune. The 12lb needs meth at a minimum and I personally would recommend at least a decent piggyback tune.
With the NST 9.5lb pulley and the Forge 007 I was making 10lbs at red line on the TRD tune.
The reason my warranty was still intact was because I went thru a good dealership. They looked into the damages and determined they weren't related to the mods I had made.
Its good to know your rights, check out the magnuson moss act for more info - http://www.google.com/search?q=magnuson+moss+act
My install was just north of $400. Call around to other dealers for install prices. The reason its so high ($900-1k or higher) is because the install is $400 and the ecu flash tool the dealership is suppose to already own to do it is $500. Most dealers pass that cost on to the consumer since there are probably only one maybe two SC'ed tC's at most in a given area. I found one dealer out of seven who had previously done the install and already had the tool.
Also, I got my SC below cost online from a dealer in another state. trdsparks.com/scion_tC_2008.htm
Their catalog is down atm. Just contact Ken in Parts at Sparks Toyota thru the site.
__________________ 06 NB tC - OG Team HAMSTER - SUPERCHARGED
You lucked out that's simply all there is to it. Your case is pretty rare, like 1 out of 500 that a dealership would allow you to be covered with all the stuff done. Simply put, you start changing the stuff on the S/C and it will void the warranty on it. And if you are going to upgrade it, then you should have just went turbo to begin with and saved yourself the hassle.
Why does everyone think a turbocharger is so much better? It's all about what you want. With a supercharger, you don't have to worry about boost creep, fouled tunes not taking the bell curve into account, oil coking, etc...
A supercharger's boost is linear, based on engine RPM, the tune is much easier, they don't run near as high of temperatures so oil coking is RARE!
They both have their ups and downs so don't knock either one.
A turbocharger WILL cost you more money in the long run. There's more parts which means more opportunity for failure. Trust me, i've been there. One vacuum leak and your turbo is useless.
Whats also funny is EVERYONE that gets a turbocharger always gets it tuned, AND THEN gets a boost controller to try to get more boost. Great way to lean out your engine. Aftermarket turbo's are unreliable at best. TRD Superchargers a plug and play and if you leave it alone, it will last the life of the car.
P.S. If Turbochargers are so much better....why do top fuel dragsters use "roots style" superchargers(blowers) and run 4.__ second quarters?
__________________
"Fools", said I, "You do not know, silence like a cancer grows.
Hear my words that I might teach you. Take my arms that I might reach you"
But my words, like silent raindrops fell, and echoed, in the wells of silence.....
Jason Johnston
Toyota/Scion of Des Moines
(800)342-7045
Why does everyone think a turbocharger is so much better? It's all about what you want. With a supercharger, you don't have to worry about boost creep, fouled tunes not taking the bell curve into account, oil coking, etc...
A supercharger's boost is linear, based on engine RPM, the tune is much easier, they don't run near as high of temperatures so oil coking is RARE!
With S/C you have to worry about failed shafts, broken brackets, oil leak, and simply put....lack of power. So, it is not a "install and forget" application. There is no such thing as a F/I application you can throw on and forget it exist. Oil coking in a turbo tC is "unheard of". Never have I seen a case of a tC coking oil in any F/I application including the S/C. I've been boosted for well over 3 years on the tC. So I've been around before there was F/I available to us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HATEnFATE
They both have their ups and downs so don't knock either one.
A turbocharger WILL cost you more money in the long run. There's more parts which means more opportunity for failure. Trust me, i've been there. One vacuum leak and your turbo is useless.
Whats also funny is EVERYONE that gets a turbocharger always gets it tuned, AND THEN gets a boost controller to try to get more boost. Great way to lean out your engine. Aftermarket turbo's are unreliable at best. TRD Superchargers a plug and play and if you leave it alone, it will last the life of the car.
That is simply false information. There are stock tC's with stock S/C kits on them that have gone back to the dealership because it blew up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HATEnFATE
P.S. If Turbochargers are so much better....why do top fuel dragsters use "roots style" superchargers(blowers) and run 4.__ second quarters?
Irrelevant. Simply put, your not going to run 4sec on a tC with a TRD S/C. You have to get the thing to even do a 13sec run first....lol (no offense). Secondly, the TRD S/C is not a Roots type S/C. Which a Roots style is FAR better than the Centrifugal one for the tC. If the TRD WAS a roots type it would get more respect. But its not.
Take a S/C tC with just the S/C on it. You just spent $3k dolllars to go as fast as a tC with full bolt-ons (I/H/E). A S/C only tC will run at best a 14.7 1/4 mile. A tC with I/H/E will run a 14.8. He spent $2k less to go as fast as a S/C tC and in some cases seen a S/C tC loose to a full bolt on tC. This would not happen on turbo applications. Simply they make their power differently and far more efficient in doing so.
The HP for the Dollar value you get for a S/C is not worth it. $3k for 40-60whp increase. You can build a turbo setup for the same price and get 100-120whp on just low boost. Should all you need is just a little bump in power fine. But it's when guy start to mod them that it just seems a waste of effort when you could have done less work and make more power with a turbo system.
The cost in the LONG run for a turbo setup is not more expensive if you keep the car around 8-10lbs of boost. It's when you get to the 10+ PSI range that it cost More in the LONG run, as you have to start thinking about a new clutch, motor mounts/torque dampner and getting it retuned. At the same time though...you are 5 times faster than a S/C tC is, so it comes with the territory.
Think about what you have to spend in order to make a S/C tC break 250whp. S/C + Pulley upgrade + a piggy back (as the TRD reflash is a joke for power increasing) + Intake + Header + Full exhaust. I left out the cost of the tune on the Piggy back simply because it's easy to tune yourself. So I will do the same with a turbo tC's break down.
Turbo tC setup... Turbo Kit + BC. You could leave the exhaust setup stock and it would still make 250whp. And would walk on the 250whp S/C tC setup.
Last edited by rhythmnsmoke; 09-15-2009 at 10:51 AM.
I've built SC'ed cars that could stand on two wheels and I've got friends who have built turbo cars that were equally as fast. This has been beat to death enough on scionlife, don't you think? They both have their ups and downs. Personally, I'm perfectly happy with the SC at 7lbs on a street car for the $2k total I spent on it.
btw, my Volvo V50 is boosted and I don't give it a second thought. Ever.
__________________ 06 NB tC - OG Team HAMSTER - SUPERCHARGED
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Last edited by BLUEMEANIE; 09-15-2009 at 11:43 AM.
I've built SC'ed cars that could stand on two wheels and I've got friends who have built turbo cars that were equally as fast. This has been beat to death enough on scionlife, don't you think? They both have their ups and downs. Personally, I'm perfectly happy with the SC at 7lbs on a street car for the $2k total I spent on it.
btw, my Volvo V50 is boosted and I don't give it a second thought. Ever.
Again though, that is irrelevant. The OP has a Scion tC. You have a Scion tC, I have a Scion tC....the topic is about a Scion tC. References to top fuel drag cars, other cars with different engine sizes, drivetrain and completely different S/C setups all together....are irrelevant. Trying to cross correlate the performance out of a Cobra with a Kenny Bell on it to that of a 4cyl tC with a TRD unit on it....is pure irrelevant. You want to provide the most clear and concise information as possible so the guy can make the right choice. To tell him..."hey top fuel drag cars use Roots" so the S/C is a great application, when he has a tC and then he goes and buys one only to have spent all the money to be as quick as the guy who put I/H/E setup on his tC...would be doing him a dis-service.
Been Beat to death because people don't take the time to search. So yeah, I agree on that for sure.
For daily driving, for racing, street/strip/road course, there is no benefit of having a S/C over a turbo as the turbo tC would be 3 times faster in ever situation. Only area a S/C tC would be on par with a turbo tC would be at a tight technical AutoX track. As in AutoX'ing, power matters the least compared to the other aspects of motorsports and daily street use.
I agree that its irrelevant the way I stated it. I should have taken more time to word it properly. My statement was aimed more towards the general thinking that in all situations one is better than the other.
I think the most valid point of your commentary is that there aren't a ton of options to increase the output of tC's SC and that it is far easier to upgrade one of the many available turbo kits if you do decide to go bigger later. I also agree that where the discussion gets out of hand is when people don't do research but I also think there are too many of the uninformed blanket "turbo > SC" replies.
Regardless, my reasoning for going SC over turbo is that I can still get my tC worked on at a dealership, under warranty or not, without risk of them f'ing up all sorts of custom work. Its a fun commuter car and thats it. I'm not racing anyone or proving anything but I can still have a good time on a twisty road or entrance ramp. I think thats what the majority of people are after whether they know it or not. Everyone who wants FI talks big but there are a small handful, like you, who actually take the time to do the work (or pay to have it done) properly and are willing to put up with the occasional inconveniences of any custom setup such as the car being down and having to personally (and/or pay someone to) take the time to figure out why.
I'm at a point in my life now a days where convenience and reliability out weigh trouble shooting, advanced DIY wrenching and bragging rights. Gas and go, thats it. If it runs rough or dies it goes to the dealer where I get a free loaner and things get correctly repaired in a reasonable amount of time. My life doesn't have to skip a beat because my car is in line at some tuner's shop.
__________________ 06 NB tC - OG Team HAMSTER - SUPERCHARGED
^^ Yeah, I'm not that type. I've taken my tC to the dealership one time...for the hatch rattle. I came out of the dealership with 3 problems....hatch rattle still there, a scratch on my center console, and grease spots in my headliner. That was the first and last time I've taken it to them. And to rely on a dealership for performance is only a little sketchy for me. As mentioned 9 out of 10 of them don't even know how a tC performs.
I do all my own stuff for that reason (don't trust people to touch my car). Except for shops like PTuning who are Scion gurus. Warranty is imo overrated. People always mention warranty as a reason why they are waiting to make a modification. Think about it....it's a Toyota, do you expect to have a drivetrain failure within the next 100k miles? Not likely. So, you just waited 100k miles to put on your mod. Now you are modding a car with wear and tear on it. So, if something breaks now...who pays for it? You do still. If you put the mod on at 20k miles and something breaks....who pays for it....You still pay for it. So, you aren't avoiding cost in the long run. Difference is now you starting with more of a used up car...lol.
Warranty is great if you expect things to go wrong with your vehicle in the near future. But again, we drive cars that are built to be reliable, so not likely to break no where near the warranties effective coverage date.
I also own 2 other cars, so downtime is only bad when I'm missing my baby...hehee.
Actually, I've had my tC in for several warrantied powertrain repairs both pre and post SC. The worst resulting in a $10k repair list. I've been a die hard Toyota owner/fan for about 18 years but my allegiance has been slipping ever since I bought a Volvo at the request of my wife earlier this year.
I use to do everything on my own but between career and family my free time is too valuable and in short supply these days.
__________________ 06 NB tC - OG Team HAMSTER - SUPERCHARGED
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Last edited by BLUEMEANIE; 09-15-2009 at 05:20 PM.
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