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Taking Toyota to small claims court

16K views 99 replies 15 participants last post by  TigerHeli 
#1 ·
Does anyone have any expererience taking Toyota to small claims court?

I recently had to replace a torque converter in my 2013 RAV4 only to find that there was a technical service bulletin and that said the software and/or torque converter were bad, however, I received no notice from Toyota or the dealer to have it serviced. This resulted in gradual deterioration in shifting until felt as if the entire engine was going to fall out. I ended up having to replace both the torque converter and the software update at a cost of $1800 shortly after the power train warranty ended.
Toyota denies any responsibility for this issue (as I'm sure they did with the 2012 to 2014 Camry issues for torque converter).:frown::frown:
 
#2 ·
A TSB doesn't say a part of the vehicle is bad. It's an instruction to the dealership on the procedures it's supposed to take if a vehicle comes in with that problem. It saves the dealership time in identifying a problem. There are usually dozens of TSBs on each vehicle model.

Have you tried calling Toyota customer service? If you're a loyal customer and the issue appears right at the end of the warranty, sometimes they cover it completely. Other times, they will split the cost. They did that with me when I was 30K miles past the warranty expiration.
 
#3 ·
Not worth your time. A TSB isn't a recall and the courts do not see it as such. There is no requirement for the Toyota to initiate a repair for all vehicles listed with TSB.

If you are going to claim some sort of product liability that caused your trouble, prepare for Toyota to ask the Judge to order you to produce expert testimony to back up your claim. (remember a TSB is not recognized by the court as proof of a defect). Prepare for the Judge to order you to produce expert testimony. This will not be a local mechanic, it would have to someone who is recognized by the court as an expert in product liability investigations.

In other words, unless Toyota specifically caused you to incur these costs, and you can prove it, expect the court to be hostile to your claim. Depending on your jurisdiction you may be ordered to pay costs when you withdraw your claim.

If you do go through with it, please update us. I'd like to hear how it goes and how much money you spent wasting your time.
 
#7 ·
The other thing is you really can't directly sue these big companies. As part of the contract when you buy it you're typically agreeing to going to a third party arbiter first, which is non binding on your end. So if you get a good result, you're good, if not you can pursue other options.

I also agree the smart way is to politely explain to your regional rep what happened. For instance our Suzuki lost an AC compressor (known issue) a few weeks after the warranty expired. Since it was a known issue Suzuki made it right by agreeing to pay for the part. No fighting, yelling, or threat of lawyers, just calmly explaining the situation to a rep and politely expressing disappointment got them to back their product up.
 
#9 ·
More info

I have been in contact w/ Toyota and the dealer. Toy ota has offered an $800 voucher for "future" parts/labor but nothing directly towards the $1800 repair.
The dealer has offered squat.

I explained the situation to toyota in a very polite way while also asking them about any known issues such as the one with Camry. At first they denied the TSB, telling me there was no TSB on the vehicle even though I was looking at it when they were denying it. They later explained that there were so many TSBs that they couldn't possibly see them all and that they weren't trying to mislead me.
When I told them I thought the voucher was an underwhelming response, I did not yell or curse and kept my cool.
The dealer told me they would try to get Toyota to apply the voucher to the completed repair but it sounds as if they wee unsuccessful.
This is my second new toy. vehicle purchase from them and the rav was not an inexpensive vehicle. This was also noted in my conversations with them.

Had there been no indication of a known issue, I wouldn't have bothered with any of it and just paid for the repair.
To me, if you know something is wrong product from an early stage, just getting it to the end of the warranty and denying it after the fact is dishonest and deceitful.

I asked for those with some experience because small claims is a unique kind of court that doesn't allow lawyers and doesn't require expert witnesses although you can use an expert if you wish. It also doesn't allow for reimbursement of court costs other than filing fees which will run me $50.
 
#10 ·
I have been in contact w/ Toyota and the dealer. Toy ota has offered an $800 voucher for "future" parts/labor but nothing directly towards the $1800 repair.
The dealer has offered squat.

I explained the situation to toyota in a very polite way while also asking them about any known issues such as the one with Camry. At first they denied the TSB, telling me there was no TSB on the vehicle even though I was looking at it when they were denying it. They later explained that there were so many TSBs that they couldn't possibly see them all and that they weren't trying to mislead me.
When I told them I thought the voucher was an underwhelming response, I did not yell or curse and kept my cool.
The dealer told me they would try to get Toyota to apply the voucher to the completed repair but it sounds as if they wee unsuccessful.
This is my second new toy. vehicle purchase from them and the rav was not an inexpensive vehicle. This was also noted in my conversations with them.

Had there been no indication of a known issue, I wouldn't have bothered with any of it and just paid for the repair.
To me, if you know something is wrong product from an early stage, just getting it to the end of the warranty and denying it after the fact is dishonest and deceitful.

I asked for those with some experience because small claims is a unique kind of court that doesn't allow lawyers and doesn't require expert witnesses although you can use an expert if you wish. It also doesn't allow for reimbursement of court costs other than filing fees which will run me $50.
Do you think if you sue Toyota in small claims court that they would send an employee or maybe Jim Lentz? Of course they will send a lawyer.

You also need proof Toyotas actions caused you to incur these expenses. A TSB is not proof. Spend your 50, waste your time. depending on the jurisdiction you are in prepare to be ordered to pay a portion of toyotas costs.
 
#11 ·
Personally I'd take that $800. It's not ideal, but here is the thing: you plan on keeping this car, right? Sooner or later you'll need tires. 4 tires will probably run you about $800, so there you go. Or if they're having some sale on tires or you don't spend the full amount use it on brakes or some accessories. $800 is a lot of money and at nearly half the cost you paid is pretty fair. I could see if you simply could not afford $1800 to fix it but you paid that already so you have no leverage there. You're not getting back money you already spent.

Also, in small claims court in most states you or the other party can bring a lawyer, though is probably not worth it for the small amount involved. You also need to look up policies regarding arbitration for disputes, I will imagine that the dealer service department has one similar to Toyota where that is what you agree to prior to servicing the vehicle there. Sure, I could have sued the 3rd party warranty company when a vehicle I purchased required an A/T rebuild and they didn't cover tear down time or fluid, even though a tear down (removal cost plus $300-400 plus cost to put it back together or install a replacement if I say no) is required by the warranty company to get a complete parts list so they can approve or deny a claim. But instead I was happy they paid $700 of a $1700 repair because the alternative was a lot worse and they could have said I bought the car that way so they didn't have to cover it if the adjuster was in a bad mood that day. It's called compromise, and sometimes taking something is better than getting nothing at all.
 
#14 ·
So you paid $1000 of a $1700 repair plus I imagine you paid something for the extended warranty. how much did the extended warranty actually save? Usually extendeds are sold with the car and finance charges apply. I don't doubt you saved something but unless the car was a maintenance nitemare, the extended warranty company made money. That's why they sell the policies with things that aren't covered coupled to the things that are.
 
#12 · (Edited)
So Toyota has agreed to give you $800 for a future repair (that they don't have to do at all) and that's not good enough? Do you expect them to reimburse you the $1800 fully because of the TSB that is NOT a recall?

Take the $800 with a smile and move on.
 
#20 ·
Absolutely - instead of an LSC, Toyota could legally and more easily just issued a TSB to dealers only and said - "There is a fault in the transmission software. It affects 2012-2014 Camry's. If the owner brings the car in complaining to torque converter shudder during the 5-year/60K mile powertrain warranty period, first attempt to re-flash the software at no charge. If the vehicle is beyond the warranty period, the customer will be responsible for the cost or repairs."

I re-read the thread and it looks like ToyCo is taking care of the Camry owners and not the RAV 4 owners. (And for the RAV4's they essentially did what I said above).

It also on the Camry LSC doesn't mention re-imbursement for any Camry owners that already put more than 60K miles on the TC and had it replaced at their expense - which is unusual for ToyCo.

I'm not sure if the Camry and the Rav share the same software or transmission, but it might be worth mentioning to ToyCo that if you had a Camry the same issue would have been repaired for free up to 8-years or 150K miles under the LSC and you would expect similar coverage for the RAV.

I don't see that it hurts to ask, but I also don't think they HAD to do what they did for the Camry, so $800 vouchers might be the best you can get ...

(Sometimes "politely" mentioning that you are HIGHLY disappointed that you had to pay $1800 for a known issue on similar transmissions slightly after the warranty expired and unless you get better compensation you will never consider a ToyCo product to replace your RAV4 and will advise all your acquaintances to shop elsewhere will help ...)
 
#21 ·
Toyota me wrote back that should there be an LSC for the rav like the one issued on Camry, they would reimburse me for the repair. When i asked about the Camry repair they said they were covering the owners who had out of pocket repairs prior to the LSC but after the 60,000 mile power train warranty. If you brought your Camry in now, it would be fully covered With mileage up to 150,000 miles.
So yes, they are covering Camry owners. I'm not sure what prompts a manufacturer to issue such a wide scale LSC but I guess it involves some threat of legal action or some compromise to avoid punitive damages on top of the repairs.

Again my main issue is that they realized some time ago and probably well before the TSB was issued that there was a problem with the software and or the convertors news the rav. They had the recent experience with the Camry, the age of the vehicles is the same, the convertors might be different but most likely designed the same way, most likely using the same manufacturer.

My dealer asked if they would allow the $800 credit to be applied retro to the repair and Toyota said no. The "terms" of the credit stipulate that it would apply to any repairs with a date 2 days after the TC replacement at the dealer. The terms also say I have to spend all of the $800 prior to applying any invoice to the credit. No doubt, all of this comes from a corporate lawyer so as to not own up to any issue remotely connected to the software/convertor.
 
#22 ·
Really, whether you have a case probably hinges on how similar you can show the RAV4 and Camry transmissions to be.

If you can show that they have similar or identical designs and the Camry was compensated but the RAV4 owners were not, you might have a case.

The issue is that Toyota might have documentation that only the Camry plant was affected and not the RAV4 plant, and you won't have access to that info, and even if you had an identical failure to what they showed at the Camry plant it can be hard to get coverage.

(There have been cases where a recall applied to VIN XXXX and up and the person's car was 3 numbers below the covered VIN's with identical symptoms and they couldn't get coverage.)

I'm not sure what prompts a manufacturer to issue such a wide scale LSC but I guess it involves some threat of legal action or some compromise to avoid punitive damages on top of the repairs.
Three main theories:

  • Most cynical is as you said, threat of a class-action lawsuit and paying more than it would cost to fix the issues themselves.
  • Similar - Brand Loyalty - They sell a lot of Camrys and they don't want Camry owners saying the transmission died at 61K miles and Toyco didn't care and they won't buy another Toyota.
  • Good PR - As mentioned - there are two ways that people will view this:
    • People like me look at Toyota only HAD to cover the ATX for 60K miles and it is above and beyond that they cover it for 150K miles now.
    • People like you look at it as Toyco had a design flaw in the ATX and never should have delivered it like that and now are trying to CYA.
The truth is always somewhere in the middle.
 
#23 ·
Really, whether you have a case probably hinges on how similar you can show the RAV4 and Camry transmissions to be.

Jesus, don't encourage the poor guy. Only an expert could make a claim like that. Just because it's small claims doesn't mean basic judicial rules don't apply. Some guy who wants money from Toyota can't just print out some internet articles and say here's proof.

Well, actually he can, but he can also say aliens screwed his transmission, the court will dismiss both claims without expert proof.
 
#24 ·
So this is the intro to the rav 4 TSB issued on 5/12/15

"Some 2013-2014 model year rav 4 vehicles may exhibit a brief shudder intermittently while driving under light loads between approximately 25 and 50 mph".

This is the intro to the 2012-2014 Camry LSC which now covers vehicles with up to 150,000 miles

"Background:
The subject vehicles may exhibit a brief intermittent shudder during torque converter flex lock-up. This shudder may be observed while driving under light throttle conditions between approximately 25-50 Mph".

The remainder of the rav TSB:
"The torque convertor and engine control module/ecm
(sae term : power train control module/ Pcm) have been modified to reduce the possibility of this occurring"....

The remainder of the Camry LSC
"Toyota has developed a new Engine Control software logic to help prevent this condition from occurring".

I'm not imagining the similarity of these same 2 failures, this is the actual wording from Toyota.
 
#25 ·
The solution in both cases are the same. Try to reprogram the ecm, if that does not work, replace the torque convertor.

They may be different parts but the resulting damage is the same. $1,800 per vehicle.

In one case the manufacturer owns up to the error and fixes it...in the other case the same manufacturer denies it and hopes the issue is not the same or is Of lesser frequency and sticks the consumer with the repair bill.

Is this the kind of company you would purchase a $25,000 to $40,000 vehicle from?

Even fanboys should take notice of this.

By the way, I still like my rav, Toyota management however , is on my s**t list.
 
#28 ·
I don't have a dog in this fight, but ...

The solution in both cases are the same. Try to reprogram the ecm, if that does not work, replace the torque convertor.
Probably true, but that solution WOULD NOT work in small claims court.

One engine has plugged piston return holes. One has burnt rings.

They both burn oil. They both need an engine rebuild to fix. They do NOT have the same problem or cause ...

Is this the kind of company you would purchase a $25,000 to $40,000 vehicle from?
It's the company I would buy a Camry from but not a Rav !!! >:D
In honesty, it depends on how you look at it, but really I am pretty happy if the car company lives up to the 5-yr/60K powertrain warranty. A lot of them don't or find ways to weasel out of it.

If they extend the warranty for me that is just gravy.

I understand your issue - if I had the same issue with my Rav as the Camry owners and they were fixing the Camry's for free but not my car - it would bug me - but my point is still that they went above what they had to do for the Camry owners not that they cheated the Rav owners.
 
#26 ·
Another happy rav owner from the Rav 4 forum:

My 2013 is approaching my end of lease (and extended warranty of 50K) and plan to purchase, but have a concern about the fact that when in eco mode, the engine often chatters as if not getting enough gas. It feels like it needs to downshift. A push of the gas peddle gets it to downshift and the noise stops. However, now, even when not in eco mode, I get the same chatter or rattling sound but only between 1 and 2K rpms. Anyone know if this indicates a problem or one waiting in the wings? Not sure if I should buy or turn in at end of lease. Otherwise, a great car.
 
#27 ·
And his reply after hearing about my little adventure:

Thank you very much for your reply. I did a little further research and came up with a failing torque converter as well. I am not a car guy, but now, thanks to your help, I know this car will be returned at the end of the lease.
 
#30 ·
It's a bit hard to figure how Toyota is handling the LSC - but Ford has something similar with the Focus DCT issues.

If I had to guess - Camry is a large part of their sales - as is Corolla (which has a CVT), while maybe Rav and Yaris are not - so if the Yaris had the same transmissions and issues Toyco might not do anything b/c it isn't that much sales lost to them.

If you were looking for an suv, you most likely wouldn't consider a Camry as an alternative.
True, but I might consider a Highlander or a 4Runner or a Sequoia - but the cynic in me says Toyco would take care of them.

"I understand your issue" -

too bad you don't work for Toyota because they (pretend to) have no clue.
Not sure what the people you've talked to have told you, but it isn't that simple usually. It is $1800.

If I work in Customer Care for Toyota, it is one thing to say "Yes, your RAV seems to have the same problem that we are fixing for the Camry." It's something else to say "Okay, the company will pay you $1800 and we will have to consider doing this for all the other RAV owners b/c it might be a fleet-wide issue."
 
#31 ·
It's a bit hard to figure how Toyota is handling the LSC - but Ford has something similar with the Focus DCT issues.

If I had to guess - Camry is a large part of their sales - as is Corolla (which has a CVT), while maybe Rav and Yaris are not - so if the Yaris had the same transmissions and issues Toyco might not do anything b/c it isn't that much sales lost to them.



True, but I might consider a Highlander or a 4Runner or a Sequoia - but the cynic in me says Toyco would take care of them.



Not sure what the people you've talked to have told you, but it isn't that simple usually. It is $1800.

If I work in Customer Care for Toyota, it is one thing to say "Yes, your RAV seems to have the same problem that we are fixing for the Camry." It's something else to say "Okay, the company will pay you $1800 and we will have to consider doing this for all the other RAV owners b/c it might be a fleet-wide issue."
Except that didn't say ..." Your rav seems to have the same problem...."
They denied any TSBs existed on the rav concerning the software/torque convertor. When I read them the rav TSB they denied knowing anything about it. They failed to call back within the 2 business days as promised and when
I called them after several days they told me that the TSB did exist but that there were so many, they couldn't possibly know about them all. I don't know how many exist but could only find 3.
Zack, the person who was the case manager was quite adamant that the first person handling my case was not trying to mislead me.

Plainly they lied because they didn't realize I had done the research before I called.
 
#32 ·
Yep - I'm not sure why it is so hard to find good customer service / customer support these days.

I had a similar issue with Firestone. Was quoted one price in error over the phone and then a higher price when I wanted to schedule the work. I complained to their online customer support chatline, was given an Incident number and was told this would be elevated to upper management and they would contact me in 24-48 hours. That was on 3 September. I still haven't heard back and I did follow-up one time after that ...
 
#33 ·
Yes customer service is king with these fine establishments...

in honor of Toyotas commitment to customer service, Im working on some advertising shots using the lets go places theme.
One shot might be a rav in front of some transmission shop with junked cars on either side. The tag line "if only I could go some places"
Another I was thinking might feature a Camry in front of a courthouse with a tag line like " the verdict is in....now we can go places"....I don't know, it's in the early stages. I have to fire up the photoshop program and get some choice photos.
 
#36 ·
Not really - I see his point.

If Toyota said "Yes, there is an LSC for a similar issue on the Camry, there is a TSB on how to fix the RAV4, but no LSC for it, but we will give you $800 toward future repiars." I would agree with you. Denying the existence of a TSB and not returning calls is not good customer service.

OTOH - I don't agree with the Internet Meme photoshop campagn, other than it's a free country and the OP can do what he wants ...

There are plenty of car manufacturers out there whose cars DON'T last through the warranty period without breaking down and then the dealer tries to do minor fixes to get it past the warranty period and deny coverage, that I don't feel much sympathy for a car that lasted through the warranty and then the manufacturer offered future credit for almost half the repair cost.
 
#39 · (Edited)
I have to ask, bee 2....what company screwed you over so bad that it affects your sense of right and wrong.

Anyway, in the olden days, which you probably remember very well, information was restricted to first or second hand knowledge. So maybe if your cousin was a mechanic and he could call his other buddy the mechanic and they could swap stories about how he heard this and that.

Today information is freely available if you do the research. Then they have these things called printers so you can actually make copies of "technical service bulletins" about poorly made products and how to fix them. No longer do you have to remember did your cousin say only blue camrys are affected or all color camrys.
You can also type plain old questions like "Toyota torque convertor problems" and like a miracle, right before your eyes, you can read about the major problems toy. Had with their convertors in the 2001-2003 ravs...or for something else, the massive problems they had with Camry.
The major upside(s) to the Internet is that as a company, take Toyota for instance, you cant bulls**t everyone like you used to, just those too lazy to do a little "leg work".
The other upside is that when you a have a company like Toyota, who has major issue with a costly part or product, you can "mass" communicate with great ease.
So in my case, close to 900 people have viewed this thread...you know most people would struggle to directly address 900 individual people in the course of many years about one particular subject.
So then you figure if they agree with me or not, they'll relay this to a few other people (and some of those were thinking about a rav or Camry....but not anymore).
You see it's not about ....did Toyota take care of Camry owners, it's about a fairly new car sitting in a repair shop, the time you spent on the phone to get it fixed and the fact you had to schlep rides to and from the shop. Then there's the experience of driving down the road and having your car feel like it's going to drop the engine on route 95...during rush hour.
In my job I sometimes have to deal with independent contractors and customers. One way I have to deal with an individual I think might be stretching the truth is to ask questions which I already have the solid answer to. If they answer honestly, I know theyre someone who I can trust to have a conversation with. If they they reveal some info I didn't have prior, I'm willing to adjust my view in their favor. If they lie out of the gate, I'm always wanting to ask more things just to see how far they're going to bury the truth. In the case of Toyota, they buried it and that's why they didn't call back and then did the about face on the TSB.
In conclusion, they didn't lie just to me, they gave this, or will give the horses**t story to anyone who calls about the Rav.
 
#44 ·
You're fortunate you got something, GM had a secret TSB to address defective timing belts in the 2004 Aveo when it first came out. They only covered the cost of the belt not the installation itself. Guess what? the TSB was for a limited time, it was kept quiet. When it expired owners had to pay for the whole repair and belt too. Those who did not know this and had their belt snap (before the 60K mile change no less) wound up paying for engine repair since it was an interference engine. No recall was ever implemented for this, even though it was a known issue. I guess since GM/Chevy felt the Aveo was disposable, owners would dump them (recommended) before the T-belt would snap.
 
#46 · (Edited)
Hi Steven,

There are probably quite some people on this forum who work for Toyota who are, at best, not impartial.
I know one particular case in a CA small claims court where a judge ruled a positive verdict on a malfunction car only on the basis of two witnesses, the owner and a friend.
The biggest chance of receiving well informed, and especially objective, advice, is to consult a lawyer I think.
 
#47 ·
I don't know that there are that many people on the forum who work for Toyota.

I think many members on the forum aren't sympathetic to complaints b/c a manufacturer's CSR (who might work for a temp agency) gave incorrect information and the manufacturer only offered $800 toward future repairs for a problem that occurred after the warranty expired (although the manufacturer was offering free repairs for a similar issue on a different model after the warranty expired).
 
#48 ·
I temped at Toyota once (the TFS side), dealing with lease return customers. Some of them owed $$ at the end of the lease for excess mileage and maybe a payment. When that happens, sometimes customers will call and BS that they can't pay. I remember one call when they did just that, and I had to ask a regular CSR about it, and right off the bat, was given the OK to offer her 25% off the total proceeds due if she would be able to send payment immediately to satisfy the lease, and that she did.

So there is some goodwill with Toyota, but like everything YMMV. If you want more than the $800 offered, you would have to escalate it to a supervisor; but it seems that that road was already crossed, so not sure if there's more you can ask for.
 
#49 ·
Another happy rav owner....Toyotajoe:

yes same thing..... went to a TOYOTA DEALER FRONTIER TOYOTA IN WINNIPEG THEY FIXED IT THE NEXT DAY TOOK OVER A YEAR FIGHTING WITH THE DEALER I BOUGHT THE CAR FROM CROWN TOYOTA IN WINNIPEG MANITOBA DONT GO THERE SERVICE IS THE S%&TS RECALL FREE FIX GOOD LUCK
 
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