This issue has recently come up in other areas of the forum and after watching some videos it appears that this issue affects Toyota engines even from the 90's when the gears wear out.

It also isn't limited to Toyota but also affects Nissan VCT and Honda i-VTEC camshaft pulleys when the locking pin fails.

This just appears to be a problem associated with the design of the cam phasing gear wearing out.

 

This issue has recently come up in other areas of the forum and after watching some videos it appears that this issue affects Toyota engines even from the 90's when the gears wear out.

It also isn't limited to Toyota but also affects Nissan VCT and Honda i-VTEC camshaft pulleys when the locking pin fails.

This just appears to be a problem associated with the design of the cam phasing gear wearing out.

Yes...I think of you guys each morning when my neighbor's Accord screeches for a split sec. at start up, and wonder when it'll be my turn....

 

Thanks for that information. It sure makes a loud and rapid rattle when that pin becomes unlatched at start-up. When it does happen, it's always after sitting overnight when the oil has drained out of the VVT system.

One day I might get it fixed. Do you have any idea how much a Toyota dealer would charge?

 

A crap load probably. On the 1MZFE the VVT-i gear is at the rear of the camshaft nearest the airbox. Removing the camshaft would be necessary which would require a timing belt job and valve cover removal on both banks at a minimum (to do both VVT-i intake pulleys).

I would either do it myself, or leave it alone.

Here are some videos of VCT rattle.

20V 4AGE

Nissan SR20

Before new gear:

After new gear:

 

The before and after sound in the Nissan above video doesn't sound anything like what I'm describing (or Toyota wrote about in the article I posted above). The rattle noise period is a quick 1 second time period that sounds much like jerking a 2 foot long chain out of an empty plastic milk jug. The 'before' Nissan video has a continuous clatter...unlike what Toyota or I am describing. (Note: The noise goes away on the Toyota as soon as the locking pin latches in the controller, which as Toyota states is only approximately 1 second. Maybe the Nissan's VVT locking pin never latches, which causes its noise to be continuous - dunno.)

I believe with my car the sound is coming from the front (nearest the front bumper) and on the passenger side. If I'm not mistaken that is where the VVT intake-side controller (actuator) is located on the intake cam. I would only have the one VVT controller replaced that is making the random noise.

This is the controller parts [similar for example purposes] that would need to be replaced on the one intake cam.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=YjIKUrre4FQ

The above linked video shows VVT controller, how it works...and the problem it can have when the pin unlatches at start-up.

I might ask my dealer for a repair estimate to repair/replace the VVT controller/actuator (housing, sprocket, gear assembly) on just the one intake cam that has the random problem. If anyone has an idea of what it may cost - I'd appreciate you guessing...because I really don't have a clue. My guess is somewhere in the $750-$1,500 range.

 

This video describes the 1 second VVT rattle sound pretty nicely.

A lot of people may think this noise is valve train noise caused by an oil problem - such as engine oil not reaching the upper part of the engine quick enough, too heavy weight oil, etc. It is not! This noise is the result of a VVT controller pin not engaging at start-up. The noise is masked when there is oil inside the controller housing, but after the car sits overnight the housing is mostly void of oil and the noise is heard [whenever the pin does not latch].

 

I've got this 1 second rattle on cold start up. The car has 21k miles and dealer maintained so It's can't be from wear already..

 

In your case you are probably one of the unlucky ones that have this problem earlier than most. However, with only 21k mileage you are lucky in that you should be able to get it fixed at no charge under warranty. The problem you might likely have is getting the service department/technician to hear (duplicate) the noise if (like mine) it only happens once every 10-15 cold starts. In essence the service department could keep your car for two weeks and crank it every day and might still not hear the noise...and rarely (if ever) are they going to agree to repair something if they cannot see, feel or hear the problem.

Now, at least you have some knowledge so you can actually tell the service department what the problem is.

 

Another video with the VVT rattle sound (valve cover off) that lasts approximately 1 second.

 

Does it at EVERY cold start up and after being driven and then set up a couple hrs but not as bad a rattle as when 1st started over nite.

 

What vehicle, year, engine?

 

All same problem, those are just worse. The sound is caused by locking pin failing to lock the gear and the rattle until oil pressure is built up.

 

OK sounds simple but will it cause long/short term damage like the OP implied?

 

Choked!! This is my sound to my 4 cylinder 2009 toyota venza. I just bought it to. It has 140,000 k on it. NOT MILES...And it does makes the 1 second sound. I did not buy it from toyota and there is no warranty. I do have a month to exchange it but i love my car. ( I had some mechanic look at it today and he said i needed to replace the timing chain!) Moron..
So from what Im hearing…I have to get this gear and have it replaced to make this sound go away? Im in canada and where on earth do i do that if thats the case.:facepalm:

 

Just make sure that you recognize the difference between the sound of a VVT controller ratcheting back-and-forth within the housing for approximately 1 second due to the locking-pin not latching/engaging at start-up versus the sound of a engine's valve-train not getting oil quick enough at start-up. Also, if a timing chain has too much slack, it can make a thrashing sound too. The sounds are similar...yet different.

 

I have no idea what the difference is… Is there a video of the different sounds? I want to get this fixed. I love my car and will do what i have to do. Im going to take it to a different mechanic next week but do I say I'm curious what is that noise?? Or do i show them this forum and tell them the direction they need to be looking. I really don't see it being a timing chain issue. I saw this so this should narrow down. I would get someone else to do that first i guess before I take it to a mechanic..
Also where is the chain on the 09 venza.

 

I have no idea what the difference is… Is there a video of the different sounds? I want to get this fixed. I love my car and will do what i have to do. Im going to take it to a different mechanic next week but do I say I'm curious what is that noise?? Or do i show them this forum and tell them the direction they need to be looking. I really don't see it being a timing chain issue. I saw this so this should narrow down. I would get someone else to do that first i guess before I take it to a mechanic..
Also where is the chain on the 09 venza.

Does the sound that you are concerned about happen with every cold start-up, or only randomly?

Since you admittedly have no idea what the difference in sounds are, I suggest that you count on a trusted mechanic to figure out your exact problem. Your problem may not be what this thread is about at all.

 

This IS the noise. So no misunderstanding here.

It does do it after cold starts. All cold starts. To me it sounds ilke the old 1914 model T rattle.
After doing research it seems others have these issues as well. There was a list of vehicles that this happens too. It looks like its more than just a wheel that needs to be replaced. Seems cam shafts etc have to be dealt with and if you read..the noise comes back even after repair. So what needs to be repaired? The VVT controller? Is that what i say to a mechanic to fix it? How much is this and is there a video of it being replaced?


http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/1...n.com/forum/122-2nd-generation-2008-2013/375214-weird-noise-after-start-up.html

I want the problem fixed and id like to get toyota to fix it. Maybe they will pay for part of it even though its past warranty as this should be a recall. Wonder if anyone has tried that before??

 

I'm very familiar with the issue and the function of the vvt-i. In your year its likely a deposit issue vs. the actual mechanical failure of recent years. What oil and filter have you been using?

 

I have no idea. I just bought it roughy a week or so ago….I do have the car fax report. I was going to do some super sleuthing and head to toyota on Monday and see what all the service records were about on it.
A deposit issue making the same noise? Im all over that if its a easier fix. What needs to be done to see if that is the issue.

 

Well i took someones advice on this thread and just tapped the starter a couple times before i actually started the engine (2011 2.5 I4). And it started very quiet! First time that has happened. Every cold start, it clatters.

So that tells me it has nothing to do with oil pressure at the VVT device and it's probably a mechanical issue like the locking pin NOT in it's right place after engine shut down..

 

Glad that tip worked for you. It [more than likely] confirms that your clatter/rattle, lasting approximately 1 second at cold start-up, is your VVT controller. At engine shut-off the spring-loaded locking-pin is supposed to latch into a hole in the side of the housing. That locking-pin engagement event is what is not happening all the time.

When the engine is stopped, in order to improve startability, the intake camshaft will become the most retarded state because of the external force such as the valve spring force. At this time, the locking-pin fixes the housing and the movable vane in the controller. After the engine starts the locking-pin is released from the housing hole by hydraulic pressure.

In all likelihood the locking-pin fails to lock into position at many other times also, other than at a cold-start, but the 1 second rattle or clatter sound is not really heard or noticed because the engine had only been shut-off for a short time before the engine was restarted again, and the VVT controller still had adequate oil within the controller to muffle or buffer the sound of the vane moving within housing. After the vehicle sits parked overnight (or any lengthy period of time) the engine oil in the VVT controller (housing/movable vane) naturally drains back to the lowest parts of the engine except of course for a thin film of oil and random little puddles of oil in valleys and crevices here-and-there. There is no anti-drain back type of valve in the VVT system to keep it full of oil. That said, when a cold-start is made is when the VVT noise is heard 'if' the controller's locking-pin had failed to engage in the hole of the VVT's housing when the engine was last shut-off.

To hopefully correct this fault (when it happens) it can be helpful to simply bump the starter one time for a split-second, which will likely cause the locking-pin to engage in the hole of the housing, as it should have done when the engine was last shut-off.

Hope that helps explain what is happening, and why a quick starter bump usually helps...

 

Kooter in your older Camry it was mainly a deposit problem vs the mechanical problem plaguing some of the newer ones. Deposits was the problem with my 02 and a couple of other 03 and 04's. Have an 05 with the problem now, we are going to try something new. In addition to a cleaning, going to try Mos2 and/or Cera Tec. Cera Tec is a lube that fills imperfections in metal. Last for 30k. The hope is this will improve the function of the locking pin. Will report back.

 

Im not about to bang on the starter everytime I start my venza. How embarrassing and what a nuisance that would be..Especially if i was doing in front of someone who drove a Honda.

I would definitely like to see what the result would be by adding some additives. I don't understand the deposit issue and would like any advice on what to buy and where to dump the stuff into. Im assuming into the gas tank..

 

Well, you can bump the ignition key instantaneously one time before starting the engine...or you can forego that and listen to a noise that sounds like someone jerking a 3 foot long chainsaw chain out of an empty milk jug. Which sound is the least embarrassing to you?

 

I wonder why the pin doesn't lock at shut down and then easily locks in place with a simple bump of the starter?

And you are right, I did have the clatter at start up after cold start sitting maybe after 30-45 mins also.

Maybe the engine speed is too high at shutdown in Park. I am going to try the shutdown in Drive with a somewhat slower engine speed then try a cold start up afterwards. Maybe engine speed has something to do with the pin unable to lock in at shut down..

 

I really do not think the VVT problem is a deposit problem. I just the think the VVT locking-pin hole is likely flared a bit or the spring is fatigued, which allows the pin to never fully engage in the hole in the housing and/or to back-out from the hole, when the engine is started. If the problem happened all the time on cold-starts then I would probably agree that it was deposit-related. Don't think it is...

 

This will show you what the housing, movable vane with seals, and the locking-pin and the hole it engages in the housing all looks like.

 

I've worked on 4 ticking controllers so far. Fixed 3 just cleaning the engine and controllers out. One is the car I'm driving. The symptoms were random, intermittent sticking of the pin when cold. Controllers, screens, and OCV were full of varnish and deposits. Conventional oil changes gone too far.

There was one controller that was actually defective. Was not intermittent. Constant startup rattle. A mechanical failure.

On this latest stuck controller I'm going to use the cleanup method created from trial end error (Kreen/M1 HM for 2k, drain, clean the OCV screens, refill with syn). Once the engine is cleaned out, try something new (cera tec)

 

I've worked on 4 ticking controllers so far. Fixed 3 just cleaning the engine and controllers out. One is the car I'm driving. The symptoms were random, intermittent sticking of the pin when cold. Controllers, screens, and OCV were full of varnish and deposits. Conventional oil changes gone too far.

There was one controller that was actually defective. Was not intermittent. Constant startup rattle. A mechanical failure.

On this latest stuck controller I'm going to use the cleanup method created from trial end error (Kreen/M1 HM for 2k, drain, clean the OCV screens, refill with syn). Once the engine is cleaned out, try something new (cera tec)

No one would describe the sound I am talking about as a 'tick'. The sound is like jerking a chain out of an empty plastic milk jug...and it lasts for approximately 1 second. After 1 second of loud clatter the engine purrs like a kitten with no unusual noise whatsoever. It is not a tick noise.

I would not describe this 1 second of noise as a tick. Again, if the 1 second clatter/rattle noise happened every time the engine was cold-started then I could agree that the problem might be dirt or deposits. But my problem is random - happening maybe once every 10-12 cold-starts, which is not indicative of dirt or deposits.

Take a look a the 3 pictures below, and you'll see a worn locking-pin hole. In this style VVT the hole for the locking-pin is in the flat plate and gear in lieu of the housing, but it still shows what happens when the locking-pin's beveled plunger wears or the spring tension degrades, which causes the hole to wear. I think the beveled locking-pin plunger has worn the sharp-edge off the hole on one side (or enlarged it into an oval shape) where it fits in the housing, and/or the spring has broken or lost some of its tension. In one case the beveled locking-pin would have a tendency to back-out of the worn hole, and in the other case the spring would not have enough tension to fully seat the locking-pin all the time. But, after the engine is started, and when oil flows to the VVT controller its hydraulic pressure takes care of things where prior to that oil pressure getting to the VVT the locking-pin fails to always engage or stay engaged in the hole, which is what its job is to do prior to getting hydraulic pressure.

What is interesting is the part pictured below is the part that replaced the worn part pictured above...and as you can see this replacement part now has become worn too, just not quite as badly... Clearly, the locking-pin plunger damages the hole over-time and caused the noise for approximately 1 second until oil can get to the VVT controller. I'm guessing this is a very common event on most vehicles with VVT with a 'bit' of mileage.

Could some vehicles that have ticking valve train noise at start-up or prolonged ticking well after start-up be caused by a clogged or dirty OVC? Sure... But the noise I am talking about in this thread lasts for only 1 second (until my 0W-30 Mobil 1 engine oil can get pumped to the VVT controller). And, it only happens randomly on cold-starts, not every time.

 

Startup ticking, rattle, clatter, depends on who you talk to. Rather than split hairs over sound, lets use your word, clatter. The closeup pictures are wear damage from misalignment. Why? Many reasons are possible. When did the clatter start? From new, likely a defect, a mechanical issue. If higher miles and recently appeared, likely a deposit issue. Either way, if the clatter/misalignment/sticking is allowed to go on for a long time there will eventually be damage which is the case in the closeups.

If Mobil 1 cant clean things out after a while maybe..

• Its too late and the controller is damaged like the pics.
• Or somethings still clogged like the screens or OCV.
• Or the OCV is lazy.
• Or the oil filter used has bad ADB capabilities. Hyundai and Kia have known problems with controller startup tick/rattle/clatter. They produced a TSB blaming aftermarket filters. IMO that would be a delay in flow/adb issue. Recommend only using their own. It works for the vast majority. So a Kia OE, maybe a motorcraft filter would be a cheap test.

Of course it could be damaged and needs replacement, but if its an early year VVT-i with high miles and the noise started recently I would go the cleaning route first until that was exhausted. I'm convinced going 3-4 that you can clean your way out of the clatter in older years if caught early. Maybe some newer ones too. If you've given up I understand. But for the others i want them to know there is hope, its not a dead end.

 

Startup ticking, rattle, clatter, depends on who you talk to. Rather than split hairs over sound, lets use your word, clatter. The closeup pictures are wear damage from misalignment. Why? Many reasons are possible. When did the clatter start? From new, likely a defect, a mechanical issue. If higher miles and recently appeared, likely a deposit issue. Either way, if the clatter/misalignment/sticking is allowed to go on for a long time there will eventually be damage which is the case in the closeups.

If Mobil 1 cant clean things out after a while maybe..

• Its too late and the controller is damaged like the pics.
• Or somethings still clogged like the screens or OCV.
• Or the OCV is lazy.
• Or the oil filter used has bad ADB capabilities. Hyundai and Kia have known problems with controller startup tick/rattle/clatter. They produced a TSB blaming aftermarket filters. IMO that would be a delay in flow/adb issue. Recommend only using their own. It works for the vast majority. So a Kia OE, maybe a motorcraft filter would be a cheap test.

Of course it could be damaged and needs replacement, but if its an early year VVT-i with high miles and the noise started recently I would go the cleaning route first until that was exhausted. I'm convinced going 3-4 that you can clean your way out of the clatter in older years if caught early. Maybe some newer ones too. If you've given up I understand. But for the others i want them to know there is hope, its not a dead end.

We disagree. The factory original parts are not 'misaligned' - they cannot be 'misaligned'. Keep in mind that the VVT presented absolutely no problems for well over 100,000 miles. The problem is plain and simple a wear issue in my opinion that often comes about with high mileage, which in my case is 128k miles. The VVT just needs to be replaced! It is highly unlikely that the problem is a 'deposit issue' as you suggest. I ordered the car brand new and have always used either 0W-30 or 0W-40 Mobil 1 engine oil with changes every 2,500 - 5,000 miles.

I talked with a very experienced Toyota technician I trust about this problem and we discussed the likelihood of whether the OVC may be the problem and he said that a dirty OVC screen would not cause this problem. The reason why is because when the engine shuts off the VVT locking pin is supposed to engage the hole so the VVT is locked in the most retarded position so when the engine is started again the intake cam is retarded...and this VVT locking event has nothing at all to do with the OVC. The OVC's actions only take place 'after' the engine is started and works in relation with oil pressure. 'Even if' you somehow had engine oil flowing through the engine prior to a cold start-up (and if the OVC was activated) the action of the OVC would actually defeat the very purpose of the VVT being locked in the most retarded position by the locking pin. When there is a problem with the OVC (clogged or failure) the results are poor engine performance due to the timing of the valves not being correct, e.g. too retarded or too advanced. That is not the problem because after 1 second the engine always performs perfectly. By the way, the technician said that he has never seen a [so-called] 'lazy' OVC that sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. Plus, he knows I've always used Mobil 1 0W engine oil and frequent oil/filter changes, and has personally seen under the valves covers and knows my engine is extremely clean with no buildup or sludge. So, the OVC is not even a consideration...because its actions are not applicable to the first 1 second of engine time when the VVT is supposed to be locked.

In a previous post I stated that I tried 3 different oil filters to determined if the anti-drain back valve in the oil filter was working properly. I confirmed that the ADB valve is not in any way associated with the approximately 1 second of rattle that comes from the VVT.

 

DEFINATELY agree its a LOUD clatter. This is NOT no tick. Ive had the car sit for 15 minutes and it did it. Mind you were in canada and its a little chilly.

If this is the case being it a fault... then why is it that some vehicles have this issue and some do not? And that some who do get it fixed it goes away and then comes back after about 4,000 Miles..(how many ks that is don't know)..
If its a fault then would not ALL vehicles with the VVT have this issue?

Banging on my key while in the ignition someone mentioned before I start the engine? Is that what you mean? Why that would work….Im going out this morning so i will put the car in park before I turn it off. Doubt that will do anything but like everyone with this issue.. willing to try anything….Im so worried my car is being damaged as i have no idea how long this noise has been going on before I purchased it recently.

Willing to try the "dump everything you got method into the tank to get rid of the sound" option. So let me know what to buy first. Up here in canada we have a canadian tire that may carry some american products...:headbang:

 

Kooter - No sense in splitting hairs about this anymore. Its either fixed, or its not. What did you do to fix yours? I fixed 3 so far including my own cleaning and it has has not returned in 160k. Took one apart, was all gunked up. Would rather just clean them on the car than take them off, its not an easy job depending on the engine.

Moving on, working on a 05 with a startup rattle. Trying a new method. After the cleaning method I use to (hopefully) expose more bare metal, going to add Mos2. Then maybe Cera Tec. Both made by Liqui Moly. See if a moly coating helps. SN oils have the majority of zzdp/moly removed, substituted with other wear additives to extend catalyst life. Wondering if this has anything to do with it. Wont know till I try.

 

I have not had the VVT replaced yet, and I'm not sure I even will. It's just 1 second of rattle noise once every now and then! I may just live with it since it only does it once every 10-12 cold starts...and if I want to be sure that it doesn't happen I can always bump the starter once before intentionally starting the engine. The car is a daily driver that is now 10 years old with over 128k miles, but looks new and drives like a new one. I've never kept a car anywhere near that many miles, but I really like the car and I don't worry about it like I do my others. That said, I really don't want to sink too much money into a car of this age and mileage, especially if it's not necessary for its dependability and looks. Again, it's just 1 second of rattle that happens only once every now and then, and it only happens in my garage! It's not like the A/C or transmission is acting up...

I thought the article (in my 1st post) about the VVT and locking-pin would be interesting to a fair number of people here (even though it was about Lexus engines), and may be worthwhile to others that are experiencing this brief rattle noise to help them understand what the reason was behind the noise...and how the VVT actually works.

 

rena - Controller cleaning goes on in the oil, not the gas. I don't think they will allow Kreen into Canada, do you have Marvel Mystery oil? A quick scan of your posts - Could not find engine type. V6 or I4? A signature would be helpful so I don't have to ask.

If no Kreen its 1/2 qt MMO to 4 qts Mobil 1 High Mileage 5w30. If your a 4.5 or 5qt sump, just stay with 1/2 qt MMO which is what I do. A 5w30 is a little on the thick side, but the MMO thins it some so your roughly the right viscosity. Drive 2-3k miles, drain. Clean the OCV screen(s) (if necessary), replace with the syn of your choice or continue with M1 HM.

Why the high mileage version of M1? Its got extra wear additives, seal conditioners. IMO thats important when using additives like MMO and Kreen. And it has extra cleaners. So its a powerful brew.

 

Leaky - I will not use Kreen or Marvel Mystery Oil in any of my car's engines because to the best of my knowledge Toyota (Lexus, BMW & M-B) does not approve of using such additives. If I am wrong about that and Toyota (or any other car maker) is now approving such oil additives, please let me know.

 

I could write for a month why what your asking for is unrealistic. But keeping it short.. Toyota (or any auto manufacturer) can't possibly approve every additive on the market, that would consume all their time. Toyota (or any auto manufacturer) has a hard enough time admitting a problem, let alone additives that may possibly resolve them. Manuals are guidelines with perfect world recommendations. I'm not recommending anything I haven't tried myself more than once over the past 30 years. If you don't want to try a cleaner fix because you only trust the manual and stealerships, prefer to live with the noise, thats up to you. But I'm not!