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Old 04-18-2008, 12:31 PM   #1 (permalink)
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87 22r choke problem

Hi,
I am having trouble starting my 2wd '87 22r, it takes several cranks to start and then when it starts the idle does not automatically "kick down". I beleive this is a choke problem, how do I fix the choke on these engines?
thanks for the help

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Old 04-18-2008, 06:22 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le Flavor Country View Post
Hi,
I am having trouble starting my 2wd '87 22r, it takes several cranks to start and then when it starts the idle does not automatically "kick down". I beleive this is a choke problem, how do I fix the choke on these engines?
thanks for the help
does this happen when the engine is cold, or when it is already hot? if it happens when it's cold, does the idle kick down once the engine warms up to operating temp?
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Old 04-19-2008, 10:58 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Yes, when cold the engine kicks down after it warms up. But the main problem is the starting, it takes several cranks to start the enigine, so I am assuming it is the choke. How do I fix those?
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Old 04-22-2008, 01:51 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Le Flavor Country View Post
Yes, when cold the engine kicks down after it warms up. But the main problem is the starting, it takes several cranks to start the enigine, so I am assuming it is the choke. How do I fix those?
Well, on my truck ('82, with 22R motor) the choke is electric, it's a round housing that is on the back of the carburetor, towards the rear of the truck.

The choke housing contains a metal spring (round coil) which, when cools, is supposed to pull the choke place closed. This thing is called "choke thermostat". When it warms up, it lets the choke plate stay open. The spring has a lip that engages the choke lever and thus controls the choke plate.

The problem with my truck is that the choke opens too quickly, after the engine warms up somewhat, but not enough to idle at low speed (700rpm).

Another issue is that the lip on the heat sensitive spring sometimes jumps off of the choke lever, so the lip on the spring is either worn, or needs to be (carefully) bent... I just watched it jump off of the choke lever this morning...

First thing, I would take the air filter off (engine off and cold) and gently try to move the choke plate... it will either have a springy feel to it, wanting to close, or just flap around (like mine does). Flap around = not good.

I am considering replacing this "automatic choke" with a manual choke from Napa. I think it would be a simple and elegant solution.
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Old 04-22-2008, 02:50 PM   #5 (permalink)
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thanks for the response.

If it is an "electric" choke than there is no actual electric power going to it, that just refers to the spring?

When my air filter is off the choke plate is 1/2 open, and when you move it, it springs back to 1/2 open?
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Old 04-22-2008, 04:24 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Le Flavor Country View Post
thanks for the response.
If it is an "electric" choke than there is no actual electric power going to it, that just refers to the spring?
When my air filter is off the choke plate is 1/2 open, and when you move it, it springs back to 1/2 open?

Yes, it has wires. Mine has one red wire, and the round clamp that holds the choke housing to the carburetor is grounded.

My understanding of it is that the choke receives power as soon as you turn the ignition switch, and begins heating up. So, in essense, its rate of heating (and therefore the time when it actually opens up completely) has little to do with how quickly the engine actually warms up; rather, it is simply timed to, on average, correspond to the engine warming up.

The bi-metallic spring properties will certainly change over time. You can compensate for this (up to a point) by loosening the bolts that hold the choke and rotating the choke housing. On my truck you would have to cut another small notch because there is only one way that it fits onto the carb.

Older years (78, 79?) had a choke housing that had a coolant hose running through it. Those open up as the engine coolant warms up.

I will post my findings after I install the manual choke tonight. Having an automatic choke is great, but I think I have a better feel for when the car warms up than some rusted out metallic spring. (That was kind of a joke).
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Old 04-22-2008, 04:46 PM   #7 (permalink)
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good info

Here's a good site on the choke operation:

http://www.vw-resource.com/automatic_choke.html

Yes, it's about VW but most of the things that are written about the automatic choke apply.
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Old 04-22-2008, 08:51 PM   #8 (permalink)
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sorry if this makes me sound like a asp but i see this question alot on the net.


do you pump the gas 3 times prior to starting?



dispelling a myth:

there is NO automatic kick down from high idle. you MUST tap the gas. spring pressure holds the cam in place. so if you pump it a few times to set the choke and let it run for a long time the choke and high idle will stay on and overheat your eng.
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Old 04-23-2008, 10:38 AM   #9 (permalink)
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sorry if this makes me sound like a asp but i see this question alot on the net.
do you pump the gas 3 times prior to starting?
dispelling a myth:
there is NO automatic kick down from high idle. you MUST tap the gas. spring pressure holds the cam in place. so if you pump it a few times to set the choke and let it run for a long time the choke and high idle will stay on and overheat your eng.
No need to apologize, I think we all appreciate the info!

Okay, so, I installed the manual choke. Mechanically,it works -- i.e. it opens the choke plate, it closes the choke plate, and if I push the pedal first and then pull the choke lever it closes the choke plate *completely*.

However -- when I start the engine, with the choke closed, it does not start at high idle. In fact, I can't seem to get it into high idle at all.

???
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Old 04-23-2008, 11:10 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Yeah you dont offend me, just trying to figure this out. Carbs have always caused me trouble for some reason.
I do pump the gas 3 times, but it does not closed the choke completely, leaves choke 1/2 open.
I was just hoping that if the choke was operateing properly the engine would kick down, did not realize how the relationship between starting and kick down is.
Konstan: maybe push the lever to 1/2 choke?

Thanks for all the help.
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Old 04-23-2008, 11:37 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Le Flavor Country View Post
Konstan: maybe push the lever to 1/2 choke?
Thanks for all the help.
What forces high idle? Something that is connected to the choke plate shaft?
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Old 04-23-2008, 03:24 PM   #12 (permalink)
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What forces high idle? Something that is connected to the choke plate shaft?
I think I got it: when you press the pedal and pull on the choke ('cause I switched mine to manual), the idle cam pushes the plate that is attached to the throttle shaft. After staring at the back of my carburetor I finally identified the involved parts and how they work.

The fast idle adjustment screw controls how far the plate that is pushed by the FIC advances the throttle shaft. Mine was barely touching it => very slow fast idle.

More online pics:

http://64.78.42.182/sweethaven/MechT...Num=2&modNum=9

once again, not 'yota-specific, but very helpful nonetheless.
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Old 04-23-2008, 11:26 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I am considering replacing this "automatic choke" with a manual choke from Napa. I think it would be a simple and elegant solution.
Update on the manual choke / fast idle and dying problem.

Manual choke from NAPA went in with no issues. the longest time during the installation was spent thinking where to put the choke lever under the dash, but they make that part easy too.

Fast idle - adjusted and working.

The only thing about this manual choke - it is not spring loaded, so -- wherever you set it with the lever, that's its position, and its rigid. I think I will try to work some sort of a spring in there.
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Old 04-30-2008, 09:09 AM   #14 (permalink)
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22R cold idle problems - won't stay running when cold

Manual choke didn't fix my problem -- it was fun tinkering with it though... My issue seems to be that when the engine is cold it does not want to stay running. Then, when it warms up to near its normal operating temperature, as if by flipping a switch, the idle smoothes out, and it stops dying.

I was thinking of a list of things that happen when the motor warms up:

- choke opens (ok, i checked, choke is closed when cold, then opens after starting)
- fast idle setting (ok, engages when starting cold engine, disengages when choke opens)
- choke opener valve (assuming ok because choke is open before the idle 'normalizes')
- thermostat opens (relevant??)
- EGR valve (does something when warms up??)

What else am I missing? What else could be affecting cold idle like that??


Quote:
Originally Posted by konstan View Post
Update on the manual choke / fast idle and dying problem.

Manual choke from NAPA went in with no issues. the longest time during the installation was spent thinking where to put the choke lever under the dash, but they make that part easy too.

Fast idle - adjusted and working.

The only thing about this manual choke - it is not spring loaded, so -- wherever you set it with the lever, that's its position, and its rigid. I think I will try to work some sort of a spring in there.
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Old 04-30-2008, 04:07 PM   #15 (permalink)
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i know hind sight is 20/20, but...

it really only sounded like you needed to adjust your choke a lil bit before.


anyway

when cold and choke on, is the plate 90%+ closed? fast idle cam engaged? what is your fast idle RPM? (fast idle should be 1100-1500 rpm)

have you checked for vacuum leaks?



kind of unrelated but i think its a possibility:

in the opening to your air cleaner there should be 2 flaps, one to close off the fresh air inlet and one to open the hot air inlet off the exhaust. it almost sounds like the hot air inlet is malfunctioning by not opening and the cold air inlet is working and closing, so your arnt getting enuff air to the carb. then when it warms up the cold air inlet opens (like a switch) and bam your running fine.


does it have the same problem running cold without the air filter on and related vac lines plugged?
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