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Old 09-28-2008, 09:12 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Need help -- carbed 22R ignition system. Please!

Hi all:
This may be related to one of my previous threads "Black spark plugs - one side only". I think that the fuel to air mix was way off- unburnt, or not enough, fuel, and that caused my weird burn pattern.

I discovered that the fuel/air mix screw is exposed on my 22R (carbed) - there's no cap on it - (previous owner tinkering I reckon) so, with some work on that screw, the engine idle and the fast idle for weeks, I believe my truck is idling as it should, there's better combustion, and no hesitation during a cold acceleration.

I also think that the timing may be off and the valves need checking -- I have what I think is a valve lash-type sound. It appears on downshift in 2nd gear or at a certain RPM (but the sound seems to lessen when the engine reaches operating temp. or I add an octane booster in the gas tank). So I thought carb/engine.

I was thinking that a clutch component was malfunctioning (since the annoying downshift sound is like a J-brake), but I just dunno.



Here's my plan (and any input is valuable - I'm trying to learn and save money. Oil changes, air filters, carb maintenance, window regulators, filters, various fluids and interior work surmises my 22R expertise at the moment I'm afraid. I'm not a mechanic.

1) I would like to replace the whole ignition system with all stock/NGK parts - just like when it rolled of the factory floor in 1987.
I'm requesting assistance in finding a reliable, honest and reasonably-priced resource for OEM 22R carbed ignition parts - everything else but the plugs. Can anyone recommend a company?

I'm in the land of the $95 OEM windshield wiper arm at the local Toyota parts place, so I don't even want to ask how much the components will be there!


2) I would like my timing, fuel/air mix, fast idle and regular idle reset to stock (or whatever settings needed to eliminate hesitation and valve lash). I think I'll wearily let the mechanic take care of that. I've seen different specs on these and I don't have a timing gun. And the idle 'specs' on the web seem to be truck specific; I followed the 22R carb guy's instructions on his website, but it made the valve lash worse.

3) I want the valves checked (if the shops do that without mandating a valve job).
I'm asking if any fellow Toyota lovers can estimate what kind of cost I'm looking at for i) valve check ii)valve adjustment; or if I need either.

4) In a previous post, I asked about my temp gague not functioning properly (it moves, but only to a cool 7 o'clock position which I'm sure is incorrect). I'm aware this could be the temp. sender or the thermostat - while the truck's in the shop, I'm gonna have that fixed too.
I'm asking how difficult this is for a mechanic to do; and whether to expect a huge bill cos they took 2 hrs to get at the sender, for example.

I agree that this is kind of a strange post; and, yes, I have Googled all these issues. Flashy websites with free shipping can be misleading, and may not be the right choice for my needs.
I would like the stock parts, stock adjustments and a good price for this ignition overhaul; and I know that at least one fellow Toyota owner must have done this and can provide tips i.e., perhaps my idea of using all NGK components isn't the best way to go -- perhaps I would benefit from a different coil than NGK or MSD wires. I just don't know.

I've been dial-up surfing for an ignition kit, NGK's site, Denso's site etc. for four days now!

If some kind 22R-lovin' member can at least start me off in the right direction on any of the above issues - idle speeds, air to fuel mix, timing, radiator gague malfunction I'd be forever grateful.

The bottom line: the current distributor (Bosch), the current wires and coil(?) need changing and the valve lash must disappear.

I love my '87 and have poured at least four times the purchase price into restoring it.

Again, many thanks in advance.

Tom Logan
Honomu, HI
etl@kona.net
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Old 09-28-2008, 09:26 PM   #2 (permalink)
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if your ignitor and coil still function why replace them?


the only valid reason i see is to upgrade to deal with massive more fuel and air.





after that i would say watch ebay for a toyota service manual.


read that as "M'F'ER BUY THIS!!" http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/TOYOTA-TRUCK-4-RUNNER-1987-FACTORY-REPAIR-MANUAL_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1205Q7c39Q 3a1Q7c66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c240Q3a1318QQ_trksidZp3286 Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem250299172514QQitemZ250299172 514_

Item number: 250299172514


there is a electrical one out there too.




now you said something in there i find fishy...

Quote:
I also think that the timing may be off and the valves need checking -- I have what I think is a valve lash-type sound. It appears on downshift in 2nd gear or at a certain RPM (but the sound seems to lessen when the engine reaches operating temp. or I add an octane booster in the gas tank). So I thought carb/engine.
sounds more like a possible timing chain problem then valve lash. take your falve cover off and make sure the chain is tight and the drivers side chain guide is still there. it will make a slappy ticky noise with the revs just like valves would and far more likely then valves.
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Old 09-29-2008, 12:27 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Thanks for the reply, Shonuff. The cap and rotor are only a couple years old, I too think they're functioning properly. I just thought (depending on the prices) that I'd replace with whatever is supposed to be in there, freshen it up a little (I must have been watching too many do-it-yourself truck shows lately!)

I was just wondering about the timing cos of that noise (which only happens at a certain RPM it seems).

I'll drop her off and have the shop check the chain -- after all, they're the ones who put in in!
Isn't it amazing that the stock one lasted 16 years (R&R'd 4/1/2003, but the replacement already is suspect after 5yrs


Aside, I was looking at the spark plug wires - they're numbered; but when they're all off the plugs, the longest wire (which I'm guessing goes to the furthest plug from the cap) is NOT labeled number 4!!!

I'm hoping that the numbers are the firing sequence or something OTHER than the plug number they go to!
Also, I'm thinking that if, say, wires 3 and 4 were switched, I'd notice it when driving right?
I put em all back in order of length and it runs great.

BTW: What's your method of getting the idle/fast idle and fuel/air mix dialed in? By ear?

Many many thanks again, I really appreciate it, and you really know your stuff! I've watched some of your 4WD YouTube videos too - gotta love the rollover-hi-lift action-she starts right up one with the older longbed! When I get a 4WD (and I will) it'll be around that year ('80, '81, maybe an '82). I don't even know what the pioneer - the 1979 - looks like!!

Again, many thanks,
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Old 09-29-2008, 03:59 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Aside, I was looking at the spark plug wires - they're numbered; but when they're all off the plugs, the longest wire (which I'm guessing goes to the furthest plug from the cap) is NOT labeled number 4!!!

I'm hoping that the numbers are the firing sequence or something OTHER than the plug number they go to!
Also, I'm thinking that if, say, wires 3 and 4 were switched, I'd notice it when driving right?
I put em all back in order of length and it runs great.
Who cares if the wires have numbers or not, aslong as they are in the correct places. Firing order on 4 cyl engines is 1342. So no the numbers arent a firing sequence. Some caps have a number/numbers to determine which pin goes to which plug or where to start the firing sequence from.

Also your plugs being only black on one part, doesnt really say anything. Alot of times with modern unleaded, plug electrodes can even be whitish while the mixture is fine. Only way to adjust the mixture is with a exhaust gas analyzer or a wideband o2 meter. Exhaust gas analyzer would say whats coming out of the exhaust pipe and then the owners manual would say what it should be. Do also remember that these are just optimum specs and your car and engine is 20 years old.

Quote:
BTW: What's your method of getting the idle/fast idle and fuel/air mix dialed in? By ear?
Exhaust gas analyzer and rpm gauge.

if your ignition is working, I'd see little use in starting to change parts.

Checking the valves is easy, you put a leakthrough gauge on it, see the numbers and hear where its hissing from. If you really want the valves to be physically visually checked, that would need for the head to come off and might aswell do a valve job while you have it done, because you're going to have to remove them, aswell as having the head skimmed and headgasket replaced.

If all is working, emissions are ok, then why try to fix it, going through all this trouble just because plugs are black on one side seems bit foolish.
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Old 09-29-2008, 12:49 PM   #5 (permalink)
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FIRST rule of mechanics--

IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT !!!
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Old 09-29-2008, 07:07 PM   #6 (permalink)
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checking the chain is something you can do.


it just involves taking the air cleaner and valve cover off (30min) or you could pay a shop to do it ($100+)

your just looking to make sure the drivers side "chain damper" is still there. the plastic guides usally wear out @ 70-100k mi. use a flash light and a long screw driver to check it. just make sure it doesnt move

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Old 09-29-2008, 09:26 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Ha ha ha! I knew you were gonna suggest that, sho'.

Although I've never taken the valve cover off, I was seriously thinking about going for it too.

But I don't want to have a bunch of springs and s**t fly out at me and be left with a heap of really important parts that I can't put back. Alternatively, what if the damper is broken / missing / or in pieces? I'm guessing replacing is not quite as easy as checking.


I know, buy that f***in book, right!!

Or, post a 'Help needed replacing timing chain and damper(s)' thread!


Thanks again for your help, your posting of the diagram, and your faith in my ability!!

Tom
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Old 10-04-2008, 06:34 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Based upon some research I'm fairly certain that the at least one of the timing chain guides is loose or broken. Decided to R&R the chain and associated parts too, after all, I don't think it's wise to have the mechanic tear apart my engine just to replace ONE timing chain guide. I mean, he might as well replace the other stuff while he's in there right?.

I've been checking out timing kits and I'm wondering if I should include get one with a new oil and water pump included.

I know, I know, (it seems like) they're working fine at the moment, but I was thinking that it might be a good idea to replace all of this stuff. I'm not sure if either the water or oil pump has EVER been replaced in this 87; also, I do not know their estimated lifespan.

I'd appreciate any input on the most sensible way to approach this problem (which, I believe is only a bad driver's side timing chain guide).

Many thanks to those who replied above, and thanks in advance if anyone can help me out deciding how to deal with this.

Tom
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Old 10-05-2008, 02:07 PM   #9 (permalink)
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there are not a whole mess of springs to go flying if you take stuff apart




but ya buy a timing chain kit and a timing gasket kit. prolly a good idea to replace the oil pump cuz its a pain to replace. but you cant just replace the guide and be good, odds are the chain stretched a lil bit over time so its best to just use a kit.


the water pump is something you can slack on if you want, its fairly easy to replace with the motor in the truck.
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Old 10-05-2008, 07:55 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Thanks sho'nuff - I remember the guy who sold the truck to me sayin': "these engines are great, everything is so easy to access - the water pump is right here..." etc etc.

I'll follow your recommendations and get the kit - like in 2003 when I replaced the chain the last tine - only 22,000 miles ago. I think steel guides are in order too this time.

Interestingly, on the last replacement the mechanic "adjusted valves, checked timing" too - although I don't understand why. I'm assuming that this is standard when they replace the chain, and I'd like them to check the timing and valves again; I've been messing with the idles and I reduced the fuel/air mix trying to dial in a slower idle (it just seemed to be racing and I thought that maybe the rich condition was causing the black-on-one-side plugs as well).

The truck runs very well, but so does a 2-stroke cycle engine on straight gasoline..........for a while!
Next stop - Engbldr, too bad the shipping will be more than the kit. Such a shame that we get murdered with the shipping price out here if we choose to purchase parts from a specialty joint, or somewhere other than NAPA I should say.

One more, I've noticed an oil leak coming from where the tranny bolts on to the engine. It's really slow, but I think my oil pan gasket or seal or whatever is slowly failing. I can't get the truck up so I can't see exactly where it’s coming from, but I think it's around that seal, behind the first, shorter of the two 'torsion bar' which by the way, is not straight. Are there any other fluids that this could be besides engine oil? God I hope not. What about removing that old oil pan (bottom section) and replacing it - appears fairly easy, I'd love to have an oil pan that's clean, cos I know mine aint! Upon further reiview though, it looks like they did something with the oil pan when they did the chain - I see the same blue sealant between the pan sections that they used around the timing chain housing. Is the oil pan inviolved in a timing chain R&R?

Thanks so much sho'nuff. Your knowledge of engines never ceases to amaze me!
And extra points for referring to a job that does not involve removing the engine - I'll drink to that!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by shonuff View Post
the water pump is something you can slack on if you want, its fairly easy to replace with the motor in the truck.

Tom

Last edited by etl88; 10-05-2008 at 08:50 PM.
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Old 10-06-2008, 12:03 AM   #11 (permalink)
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blue stuff is prolly just RTV or silicon.


wash off the engine to better track where the oil is coming from, being on the back of the motor it could of been blown there.

when you replace a timing chain you have to set the timing at the same time. you should read through the autozone manual for changing a timing chain to bone up.
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