For car reliability, looking East is still best [Archive]

dsmnick

03-02-2007, 06:16 AM

I trust a copy of Consumer Reports as being fair and balanced about as far as I can throw it. Same thing with Car & Driver and their highly opinionated "gotta have it" rating system.

I have said it here several times, Toyota's rankings will continue to fall for several years as reality meets up with perception, and the issues/recalls/dissatisfaction (due to Toyota's neglect from the past 2 years) begin to raise their ugly head(s). Some may not admit it, but consumer's confidence in Toyota has been shaken in the past 2 years (particularly the past 12 months) and for the first time, these car buyers are beginning to see that the once "perfect" Toyota is capable of making mistakes. . . . Is it enough to make them change cars? I don't think so, but it is enough to quiet their enthusiasm, and their "word of mouth" recommendations. This is much like the slow demise of the Big 3 that started in the 70's, and it started in much the same way. It is much like what happened with GM in the 70s...so much that it's like Deja Vu. So many people on this website only care about Toyota becoming the #1 so they can pat each other on the backs and give hive fives. Meanwhile, the negative articles about Toyota have been mulitiplying over the last few months...I said countless times months ago that Toyota's quick growth was going to have consequences, and look what is happening now. GM is no longer weak...Ford is slowly coming around...Toyota has new stronger competition from the Americans and the free passes they received from the media for so many years are no longer being given out.

Toyota needs to tread carefully with its explosive growth...quality is what got it where it is and is what it has built its reputation upon. But when your recalls triple over three years and the media backlash begins, it's not a walk in the park any longer. And if Toyota becomes #1, just wait....all eyes will be on them for every single little thing they do wrong, just like it has been for GM.

This is going to be an interesting year to see what happens.

Camread

03-02-2007, 09:34 AM

Yeah, esp since I see alot of lot toyota pu's :lol: They should stick to cars.

WTH does import trucks have to do with reliability? they're just as good as cars in case you haven't noticed

CLIFFJONES

03-02-2007, 03:47 PM

WTH does import trucks have to do with reliability? they're just as good as cars in case you haven't noticed

Uuuhhh if you dont see them it means they didnt last as long as say their domestic counter parts.

Corona67

03-03-2007, 01:12 AM

RAV, you sure have a talent for drawing in the tards, don't you?

Toyota like GM in the 70's? I had to laugh at that one, but not for the reason intended...

C

dsmnick

03-03-2007, 05:51 AM

RAV, you sure have a talent for drawing in the tards, don't you?

Toyota like GM in the 70's? I had to laugh at that one, but not for the reason intended...

C
Nice show of maturity, Corona. Instead of calling us a bunch of "tards," why not tell us your point of view why you don't see Toyota's recent issues as troubling and very reminiscent of the arrogant management at GM 30 years ago?

ECHOKnight2000

03-03-2007, 12:26 PM

I sure hope Toyota doesn't go GM on our ass. Obviously growth is a good thing but then again it can be your worst enemy at the same time, at least growth too fast. I fear Toyota is a big bubble ready to pop. Sure it wasn't and never will be perfect, no company is especially as big as Toyota. Also I hope they are smart about their management. Meaning like most companies who are huge have huge overhead and beauracracy, which is the nature of the buisness to some extent but I believe management has a huge part in determining out come of sales, publicity, effeciency, etc. Sure you can have the biggest budget, most sales, full car line up, a luxury and "youth" division, but its how you manage that is the key. As bad as the past experiences were and I'm sure they won't stop, I hope this will humble Toyota. ALso it seems like I hear conflicting views from Toyota, I read news that they say, "oh we're not trying to be number one" and other views "We hope to pass GM soon" along those lines so its like okay. I"m NOT BASHING Toyota, I'm just observing the events lately and in the last two years or so with recalls and what not. Toyota don't dissapoint me.:thumbup:

thoots

03-03-2007, 04:30 PM

It is much like what happened with GM in the 70s...so much that it's like Deja Vu. So many people on this website only care about Toyota becoming the #1 so they can pat each other on the backs and give hive fives. Meanwhile, the negative articles about Toyota have been mulitiplying over the last few months...I said countless times months ago that Toyota's quick growth was going to have consequences, and look what is happening now. GM is no longer weak...Ford is slowly coming around...Toyota has new stronger competition from the Americans and the free passes they received from the media for so many years are no longer being given out.

Ridiculousness. :disappoin

There's one big difference between Toyota vehicles and Ford or GM vehicles:

People actually want to buy Toyota vehicles.

Malibu, Impala, and Ford Five Hundred (nee Taurus) are molehills compared to the sales of Camry, Avalon and such from Toyota. In the overall sales pictures, virtually NOBODY is buying these US-nameplate cars. Even though the Fusion seems to be getting good reviews, it's really just a Mazda 6 under Ford clothing, and its sales are still just a fraction of what Toyota and Honda are selling. Chrysler has actually made some desirable cars (though they're tanking on that with Caliber/Sebring/Avenger and their woeful designs), but they have been among the worst of horrifyingly-unreliable US-nameplate cars. And sorry for using the term "US-nameplate," because Chrysler is owned by a German company, and the US companies have been moving more and more and more of their assembly plants to Canada and especially Mexico. "US-built" just doesn't apply to these cars very much these days -- it applies far more to the Camry and the Accord than to the equivalents that GM, Ford, and Chrysler are selling!

Trucks are a different story, as the US companies can actually SELL some of them, but their huge SUV's are taking a big hit with gas prices -- wait and watch them bomb to abysmal levels once gas gets over three bucks a gallon this summer.

In the end, I'm not so sure that Toyota has had "rapid" growth or has "exploded" in growth -- it has been consistently selling more and more cars each year, in an attempt to meet the demand for its cars. Any "reliability issues" have had a lot more to do with the nature of an increasing percentage of parts assembled into a vehicle coming from suppliers rather than being built in-house, and the real comparison with US-nameplate vehicles will always be between Toyota's "legendary" reliability and the US-nameplates' reputation for being virtually the least reliable vehicles a consumer could choose to purchase. In the real world, some unnamed "loose trim pieces" in an auto enthusiast magazine don't compare equally to, for instance, the problem Chrysler pickup and SUV vehicles tended to have with shedding front wheels while under way on the highways, which hit the major TV newscasts and newspapers. And some people actually comprehend the difference between how Chrysler FOUGHT the government in regards to issuing a recall for that problem, as compared to how Toyota WILLINGLY has recalled vehicles to correct much more minor issues.

All the US-nameplates have to do is build interesting cars that people want to buy, and build long-term reliability into them. It's really very simple -- that's what Toyota has been doing all along. While I'm not so sure about "long-term reliability," the US nameplates do seem to sell some very interesting vehicles overseas -- even vehicles with capable driving dynamics and other "foreign" characteristics. But, the genius-level-paid bufoons who run these US-nameplate companies just can't figure out that US consumers might like to buy "interesting" cars, too. While GM seems to be finally "getting" this, Ford seems to have totally lost the point -- the fact that the "new" Focus won't be built on the highly-acclaimed chassis that Ford uses for the car and related vehicles in overseas markets, which has already been around for several years, shows that the people in charge just simply don't even have a freaking clue. "Hey, let's rename the Five Hundred as the Taurus!" does disappointingly seem to be best that these sad excuses for corporate executives are capable of coming up with.

I'm sure not going to "reward" clueless, second- or third- or fourth-rate engineering with my hard-earned dollars, no matter where the people who run the business live. If Ford goes bankrupt, GM slides farther downhill, and Chrysler sinks so low that it winds up being purchased by one of its suppliers, they will do so only because they have EARNED their fates so well. In the end, people like me believe that Toyota will remain leagues ahead of the US-nameplate companies, and their several-decades-long record of horrifyingly poor reliability. I have no sympathy for these companies, nor the people who wind up getting stuck paying for any of their vehicles. Let's see them come up with three or four decades' worth of world-class, long-term, corporate-wide high reliability, and then I might consider laying my money down on one of their vehicles. They haven't even started that, yet.

yrmac

03-03-2007, 08:14 PM

Postings exemplified by the above just reinforces how consumers can be blindly bounded by self-fulfilling hypocrisy.

If the past few years is an indication of what Toyota products might become, then their reputation will not carry them for so long. I don't think the consumers are gullible and/or stupid enough to buy products that are falsely based on reputation alone.

My 3rd gen Camry is 13 years old and still running. This car never had any recalls nor any major problems. I also had a 2004 Toyota Highlander that had 2 recalls and I believe a reputation for engine sludge (I don't think Toyota was a willing participant with the warranty extension for the engine sludge problem).

What I don't understand is that some people vehemently try to cover up failures by a company. Don't they realize that it is for the benefit of the consumers to show that Toyota products are becoming more like GMs? Maybe, just maybe, Toyota will open their corporate eyes to these problems and rectify them before they become their "reputation".

dsmnick

03-04-2007, 05:57 AM

Ridiculousness. :disappoin

There's one big difference between Toyota vehicles and Ford or GM vehicles:

People actually want to buy Toyota vehicles.

Malibu, Impala, and Ford Five Hundred (nee Taurus) are molehills compared to the sales of Camry, Avalon and such from Toyota. In the overall sales pictures, virtually NOBODY is buying these US-nameplate cars. Even though the Fusion seems to be getting good reviews, it's really just a Mazda 6 under Ford clothing, and its sales are still just a fraction of what Toyota and Honda are selling. Chrysler has actually made some desirable cars (though they're tanking on that with Caliber/Sebring/Avenger and their woeful designs), but they have been among the worst of horrifyingly-unreliable US-nameplate cars. And sorry for using the term "US-nameplate," because Chrysler is owned by a German company, and the US companies have been moving more and more and more of their assembly plants to Canada and especially Mexico. "US-built" just doesn't apply to these cars very much these days -- it applies far more to the Camry and the Accord than to the equivalents that GM, Ford, and Chrysler are selling!

Trucks are a different story, as the US companies can actually SELL some of them, but their huge SUV's are taking a big hit with gas prices -- wait and watch them bomb to abysmal levels once gas gets over three bucks a gallon this summer.

In the end, I'm not so sure that Toyota has had "rapid" growth or has "exploded" in growth -- it has been consistently selling more and more cars each year, in an attempt to meet the demand for its cars. Any "reliability issues" have had a lot more to do with the nature of an increasing percentage of parts assembled into a vehicle coming from suppliers rather than being built in-house, and the real comparison with US-nameplate vehicles will always be between Toyota's "legendary" reliability and the US-nameplates' reputation for being virtually the least reliable vehicles a consumer could choose to purchase. In the real world, some unnamed "loose trim pieces" in an auto enthusiast magazine don't compare equally to, for instance, the problem Chrysler pickup and SUV vehicles tended to have with shedding front wheels while under way on the highways, which hit the major TV newscasts and newspapers. And some people actually comprehend the difference between how Chrysler FOUGHT the government in regards to issuing a recall for that problem, as compared to how Toyota WILLINGLY has recalled vehicles to correct much more minor issues.

All the US-nameplates have to do is build interesting cars that people want to buy, and build long-term reliability into them. It's really very simple -- that's what Toyota has been doing all along. While I'm not so sure about "long-term reliability," the US nameplates do seem to sell some very interesting vehicles overseas -- even vehicles with capable driving dynamics and other "foreign" characteristics. But, the genius-level-paid bufoons who run these US-nameplate companies just can't figure out that US consumers might like to buy "interesting" cars, too. While GM seems to be finally "getting" this, Ford seems to have totally lost the point -- the fact that the "new" Focus won't be built on the highly-acclaimed chassis that Ford uses for the car and related vehicles in overseas markets, which has already been around for several years, shows that the people in charge just simply don't even have a freaking clue. "Hey, let's rename the Five Hundred as the Taurus!" does disappointingly seem to be best that these sad excuses for corporate executives are capable of coming up with.

I'm sure not going to "reward" clueless, second- or third- or fourth-rate engineering with my hard-earned dollars, no matter where the people who run the business live. If Ford goes bankrupt, GM slides farther downhill, and Chrysler sinks so low that it winds up being purchased by one of its suppliers, they will do so only because they have EARNED their fates so well. In the end, people like me believe that Toyota will remain leagues ahead of the US-nameplate companies, and their several-decades-long record of horrifyingly poor reliability. I have no sympathy for these companies, nor the people who wind up getting stuck paying for any of their vehicles. Let's see them come up with three or four decades' worth of world-class, long-term, corporate-wide high reliability, and then I might consider laying my money down on one of their vehicles. They haven't even started that, yet.
And people also want to buy Ford and GM vehicles...that's why retails sales for both companies have been increasing over the past few years. The reason sales continue to track downward is because they are cutting the fleet crutch they had been using to prop themselves up with in the early 00s, and the big SUV's aren't selling well with high gas prices (same thing is happening with Toyota's large SUVs). But hey, look at GM's recent sales figures for February...up 3.4% and retail sales up 18%. It's the reason Ford and GM are receiving more praise in the media for increased quality and why conquest rates from import customers are also on the rise. Don't give me this "no one wants to buy them" crap...that's purely a false generalization.

GM, Ford, and Chrysler still command nearly 50% of the American market, by the way.

I will argue that the reason many Toyota vehicles sell so well is the perception that they are better than anything Detroit makes, even if that isn't always true. Toyota builds good cars, yes, but they aren't the only ones doing it anymore. And the perception toward GM and Ford is changing...just look at recent reviews in the media and by consumers. GM is really starting to push the boundaries with new product coming out...the '08 Malibu will set the bar higher in the midsize sedan segment and open a few eyes to those who haven't bothered to look at a GM in the last 20 years. The '08 CTS will do the same for the midsize luxury segment.

You are completely simplifying the process of bringing the C1 Focus platform from Europe over here....it's a lot more than just "let's put it on a boat and ship it to the US." The cost of the European Focus is much greater than the American Focus and Ford would have a hard time selling it in this market without decontenting it...people just don't pay premium prices for a small sedan in the US. But, the next Focus WILL be using the global C2 platform, and it will be out in either '09 or '10.

As for the Taurus...the sheet metal may not have changed much, but it is receiving a new engine, improved interior, and the Ford Sync voice-actived nav system that will put it on par with the Avalon and Lucerne (maybe even beyond since it is the only one with AWD available). And the Taurus is a much more recognized name than either of those two...it was a natural choice to go back to it. They didn't just rename the damn thing like you have implied.

Ford Edge sales doubled for February and are off to a better start than the Fusion was...it this continues it will sell at least 200,000 this year, along with 150,000 for the Fusion. Those are two brand-new nameplates with no long-recognized history like Taurus, Camry, or Accord. And you're telling me people don't want to buy domestic vehicles?

Unfortunately, your last comment is echoed by many Americans....if one of the largest sectors of American manufacturing goes down, you simply don't give a shit. It's quite disturbing to me though...because as much as competition is a good thing, not giving a shit about our home-based corporations is why this country is going to hell in a handbasket. 350,000 assembly jobs and 1.9 million other jobs tied to GM and Ford can't compare to the vast 300,000 jobs supplied by Toyota, Kia, et al. After all, they're more American because they've built a few plants here that employ 2000 or so each.

I have no problem that people buy Toyotas and enjoy them...it's the ones that don't care or root for the downfall of our automobile industry that is just baffling.

engineer

03-04-2007, 09:21 AM

lexusis350

03-04-2007, 09:39 AM

To keep up with demand, its good Toyota plans to build more plants. Building more plants will help with quality control and relieve overworked plants.

CDub LXi

03-04-2007, 10:07 AM

I really don't see how these guys are "tards". I read their responses regularly on this board and they almost always seem well thought out and educated. I take both sides of the issue to heart.

I agree that Toyota and Honda have the market cornered with:

Person 1 "Well my Toyota has about 150,000 mile on it. I'm thinking of getting a newer one"
Person 2 "It's a Toyota man.. those things will run forever"

You can swap that for Honda too...

I can't wait until the day we can say the same for Chevy, Ford, and Dodge..... although I think it's more realistic with Chevy and Ford than the last nameplate.

dsmnick

03-04-2007, 02:10 PM

^^Well said!!! I didn't have the patience to correct all of Thoots misguided opinions, and baseless diatribe. . . . . . thank you for taking the time to correct him/her, and adding a little balance to the topic. To be totally honest, I stopped reading after the "people actually want to buy Toyota's" comment. It was only after your reply did I take the time to read thoot’s post. . . . :disappoin You're not the only one...I almost stopped as well. I can't count how many times I've responded to these posts about how no one buys domestic cars anymore / it's not cool to drive domestic / GM is garbage / etc....if people would do some research before spouting off, they would realize that the American auto industry isn't what it was ten, five, or even two years ago.

I've been closely following the auto industry for about 4 years now...I saw things getting progressively worse in 2003 and 2004, the debt and panic of collapse in '05, and the renewal of GM in '06. I remember when it seemed like every other post at the GM message boards in late '04 was how GM would be either gone or bought out by 2006. Yet my how things have changed...the major media outlets, even the ones that used to be vehemently against GM, are changing their tune. That's not to say they are completely out of the woods yet, but they're doing much better than some comments on this board would leave one to believe.

thoots

03-04-2007, 03:38 PM

You're not the only one...I almost stopped as well. I can't count how many times I've responded to these posts about how no one buys domestic cars anymore / it's not cool to drive domestic / GM is garbage / etc....if people would do some research before spouting off, they would realize that the American auto industry isn't what it was ten, five, or even two years ago.

I've been closely following the auto industry for about 4 years now...I saw things getting progressively worse in 2003 and 2004, the debt and panic of collapse in '05, and the renewal of GM in '06. I remember when it seemed like every other post at the GM message boards in late '04 was how GM would be either gone or bought out by 2006. Yet my how things have changed...the major media outlets, even the ones that used to be vehemently against GM, are changing their tune. That's not to say they are completely out of the woods yet, but they're doing much better than some comments on this board would leave one to believe.

Oooooh. "Four whole years!!"

No wonder you don't understand.

I've been buying cars and paying attention to reliability, build quality, and driving dynamics for over thirty years. I've paid very close attention to problems my friends, family, and coworkers have had with their cars, foreign or domestic, through all this time. I've been reading virtually everything I could get my hands on since I was about ten years old. I've gone out and test-driven five-year-old cars, to see if they've held up, or if they've become just buckets of junk.

Two years means NOTHING.

Five years means NOTHING.

Let's see GM, Ford, or Chrysler show up in, say, the Consumer Reports reliability ratings with "filled red dots" for at least a decade, across their full vehicle lines. Then maybe I'll start thinking about checking them out. Maybe after two decades at that level of competence, I'd start thinking of actually spending some of my own money on one of their vehicles.

What you utterly seem to fail to understand is that GM and Chrysler, and to a lesser extent Ford, have had ABYSMAL quality and reliability records for about three or four decades. Again, to look at Consumer Reports, they put it so succinctly -- reliability that is "Much worse than average" -- the usual GM black dot. Sorry, Charlie, but I'm not going to spend my money on "worse than average" reliability! I don't give any credibility whatsoever to some "report" that some new GM or other domestic vehicle gets good marks -- that doesn't "prove" anything to me, whatsoever. Let's see if the thing is a falling-apart piece of junk in five years. Let's look at the whole output of that manufacturer in that regard for over a decade. "Build a reputation for quality," and that's what it will take to win my business.

And not that I just look to Consumer Reports or JD Powers or any other organization to judge anything -- I try to find out as much as I can myself, and glean what I can from dozens of other sources, including online forums such as this one. Again, as I mentioned above, I pay close attention to the experiences that folks I come in contact with have had with their vehicles. And the US-nameplate vehicles look just as unappealling to me as they did back in the 1970's. Or the 1980's. Or the 1990's. Or in this decade so far.

In the end, I think I'll go to Consumer Reports one last time, as they really caught my eye in their recent review of "family sedans" that compete with Camry, Accord, and others. The "Lows" for the Pontiac G6 were especially revealing. Here is what they found sub-par about the G6:

"Noise, braking, sloppy handling at the limits, ride, fit and finish, access, turning circle, steering, rear seat, front-seat comfort on the 4-cylinder version."

Sheesh. My perspective on that is "Why even bother?" What utter incompetence! Are you going to pay $20,000 to $25,000 for something like that, or choose something that's far more competent in all of those areas, for the same kind of money? Oh, and no matter how awful that is, CR's ranking for the brand-new Chrysler Sebring was EVEN WORSE.

Let me put this into perspective for you: These are brand-new, new-generation vehicles, representative of the current "state of the art" for these manufacturers. And they absolutely stunk up the place.

Sorry, dude, but that comes out as "awful-to-mediocre" real-world performance, with an expected "awful-to-mediocre" reliability. These cars remain amongst the least competent and the least reliable cars in the segment. It's where these cars and their predecessors have been for decades. And that's why I still won't even begin to consider wasting my money on one of them.

"Just build a compelling, competent car with excellent, long-term reliability."

It's all the US-nameplate manufacturers have to do.

I still don't see it happening.

And I'll still insist upon seeing them "build a reputation" for doing so -- built over at least a decade or two. I'm not going to lay down that kind of money based upon one little report when a new model comes out. They have to prove their quality to me.

Anyway, if you want to spend twenty or twenty-five grand on one of those G6's or Sebrings, you go right ahead. I'll go see if I can find a ten-foot pole.

engineer

03-05-2007, 09:10 AM

Oooooh. "Four whole years!!"

No wonder you don't understand.

I've been buying cars and paying attention to reliability, build quality, and driving dynamics for over thirty years. I've paid very close attention to problems my friends, family, and coworkers have had with their cars, foreign or domestic, through all this time. I've been reading virtually everything I could get my hands on since I was about ten years old. I've gone out and test-driven five-year-old cars, to see if they've held up, or if they've become just buckets of junk.

Two years means NOTHING.

Five years means NOTHING.

Let's see GM, Ford, or Chrysler show up in, say, the Consumer Reports reliability ratings with "filled red dots" for at least a decade, across their full vehicle lines. Then maybe I'll start thinking about checking them out. Maybe after two decades at that level of competence, I'd start thinking of actually spending some of my own money on one of their vehicles.

What you utterly seem to fail to understand is that GM and Chrysler, and to a lesser extent Ford, have had ABYSMAL quality and reliability records for about three or four decades. Again, to look at Consumer Reports, they put it so succinctly -- reliability that is "Much worse than average" -- the usual GM black dot. Sorry, Charlie, but I'm not going to spend my money on "worse than average" reliability! I don't give any credibility whatsoever to some "report" that some new GM or other domestic vehicle gets good marks -- that doesn't "prove" anything to me, whatsoever. Let's see if the thing is a falling-apart piece of junk in five years. Let's look at the whole output of that manufacturer in that regard for over a decade. "Build a reputation for quality," and that's what it will take to win my business.

And not that I just look to Consumer Reports or JD Powers or any other organization to judge anything -- I try to find out as much as I can myself, and glean what I can from dozens of other sources, including online forums such as this one. Again, as I mentioned above, I pay close attention to the experiences that folks I come in contact with have had with their vehicles. And the US-nameplate vehicles look just as unappealling to me as they did back in the 1970's. Or the 1980's. Or the 1990's. Or in this decade so far.

In the end, I think I'll go to Consumer Reports one last time, as they really caught my eye in their recent review of "family sedans" that compete with Camry, Accord, and others. The "Lows" for the Pontiac G6 were especially revealing. Here is what they found sub-par about the G6:

"Noise, braking, sloppy handling at the limits, ride, fit and finish, access, turning circle, steering, rear seat, front-seat comfort on the 4-cylinder version."

Sheesh. My perspective on that is "Why even bother?" What utter incompetence! Are you going to pay $20,000 to $25,000 for something like that, or choose something that's far more competent in all of those areas, for the same kind of money? Oh, and no matter how awful that is, CR's ranking for the brand-new Chrysler Sebring was EVEN WORSE.

Let me put this into perspective for you: These are brand-new, new-generation vehicles, representative of the current "state of the art" for these manufacturers. And they absolutely stunk up the place.

Sorry, dude, but that comes out as "awful-to-mediocre" real-world performance, with an expected "awful-to-mediocre" reliability. These cars remain amongst the least competent and the least reliable cars in the segment. It's where these cars and their predecessors have been for decades. And that's why I still won't even begin to consider wasting my money on one of them.

"Just build a compelling, competent car with excellent, long-term reliability."

It's all the US-nameplate manufacturers have to do.

I still don't see it happening.

And I'll still insist upon seeing them "build a reputation" for doing so -- built over at least a decade or two. I'm not going to lay down that kind of money based upon one little report when a new model comes out. They have to prove their quality to me.

Anyway, if you want to spend twenty or twenty-five grand on one of those G6's or Sebrings, you go right ahead. I'll go see if I can find a ten-foot pole.

Brevity is the essence of whit. . . . . (in other words, keep it short if you want to make a point)

And to be totally honest, "the domestics" don't want you as a customer. Why? Because you have experienced their crap of 30, 20, 10, or even 5 years ago. You are predisposed to dislike their products (and you probably have good cause, to be quite frank). BUT, your constant diatribe of "domestics suck" shows your inability to be fair. As said above, the products from "the domestics" of the past 2-5 year have been good to great, and they are getting better every year. Some domestic products need help (cars in particular), but to write them off as "crap" is nonsense.

It will take another 2-5 years for GM and Ford to convince the mainstream customers that their products are worthy of your money. That does not mean that the products are crap, it does mean that there is alot of "reconciliation" that GM and Ford needs to do with the buying public.

CDub LXi

03-05-2007, 08:12 PM

engineer

03-06-2007, 09:04 AM

I don't think the domestic market doesn't want someone who hates domestics as a customer. Look at me. I've owned nothing but Toyotas, Hondas, and Nissans until I bought my Chrysler... then my Chevy. Mind you, my Chrysler is about to be gone due to some issues that have risen but I paid half of what I would have to get a comparable Toyota and I'm going to break even when I get rid of it... and that's not bad when you put 25,000 miles on the car since you bought it.

I think there is a place for imports and domestics. If Chevy makes something you like, get it. If Ford does, do the same. If you can afford Toyota's price and you like the product, I'm sure you'll be more than happy with it.

Let’s be honest here. GM and Ford do not spend hundreds-of-millions of dollars a year on advertising to go after customers like thoots. He has already made up his mind, and probably would never even test drive a comparable domestic product when car buying time comes around. Advertising is a great indication as to who the target market is for a given product. Thoots, admittedly, will not buy a domestic for another 20-30 years, so why should domestic auto manufactures waste their money trying to sway the 10-15% of buyers (a guess) that are so closed minded that no amount of marketing would sway them? They won't, and they don't.

As far as "normal" car buyers, GM and Ford gladly advertise to these people (most of the time ineffectively, I may add). I did not intend to suggest that Domestic car companies do not want to sway any Toyota owners, just not the "head-in-the-sand, Toyota's the best" fans like thoots (no offense intended thoots, honestly ;) ).

dsmnick

03-06-2007, 12:06 PM

Let’s be honest here. GM and Ford do not spend hundreds-of-millions of dollars a year on advertising to go after customers like thoots. He has already made up his mind, and probably would never even test drive a comparable domestic product when car buying time comes around. Advertising is a great indication as to who the target market is for a given product. Thoots, admittedly, will not buy a domestic for another 20-30 years, so why should domestic auto manufactures waste their money trying to sway the 10-15% of buyers (a guess) that are so closed minded that no amount of marketing would sway them? They won't, and they don't.

As far as "normal" car buyers, GM and Ford gladly advertise to these people (most of the time ineffectively, I may add). I did not intend to suggest that Domestic car companies do not want to sway any Toyota owners, just not the "head-in-the-sand, Toyota's the best" fans like thoots (no offense intended thoots, honestly ;) ).
That's pretty much the way I see it....Ford and GM lost a chunk of a generation that grew up and lived through the 70s and 80s but there are still people turning 16 or purchasing their first car who don't have prejudices against American automobiles. These people have made up their minds that they will never step into a Ford, GM, or Chrysler dealership ever again...going after them is a waste of time and resources. Among my generation, there isn't nearly as much hate toward American autos as there is by people I know in their 30s and 40s...and the ones my age that are anti-domestic are because they have parents who probably had a rattle-trap 1978 Granada and vowed never to buy anything from Detroit again...and the kids picked up that same attitude.

Most of the American car-buying public isn't so jaded though...part of the reason that Toyota is growing so quickly right now is word-of-mouth. They aren't actually Toyota enthusiasts, they just read Consumer Reports and Consumer Guide and that's what the magazine says to buy, so they buy without researching everything that is out there. But now that Ford and GM are starting to get some more recommendations in CR and other publications, I'm expecting the same word-of-mouth to do for them what it has done for Toyota over the last few years.

ECHOKnight2000

03-06-2007, 08:42 PM

^^^I just got the new Consumer reports, the auto version (where's its just about cars) and they have interesting articles about average reliability, and what cars are made here (U.S.) compared to imports, of course overall domestics still employ and use parts domestically. But the imports have a good chunck too. Anyway even CR was saying some of the domestics were catching up or just as competative like the Fusion/Milan twins.:thumbup:

thoots

03-07-2007, 08:41 AM

That's pretty much the way I see it....Ford and GM lost a chunk of a generation that grew up and lived through the 70s and 80s but there are still people turning 16 or purchasing their first car who don't have prejudices against American automobiles.

You can fool some of the people all of the time....

CLIFFJONES

03-07-2007, 02:36 PM

You can fool some of the people all of the time....

Question? How many Toyota's form the 70's and 80's are still on today's roads?
And lets see how many 70 and 80 model domestincs are on the raod today?
My uncle has a 1963 Dodge 1/2 ton with 300k+ on it and decided to rebuild it. Took it to the machine shop and there was nothing wrong with it. The brg,.'s even still looked like new.
I have a Trans Am with 270k that has been drove hard and put up wet and will had that hand that '07 Camry of yours its @$$ on any track. And its a 91.

84Cressida

03-07-2007, 08:19 PM

Question? How many Toyota's form the 70's and 80's are still on today's roads?
And lets see how many 70 and 80 model domestincs are on the raod today?
My uncle has a 1963 Dodge 1/2 ton with 300k+ on it and decided to rebuild it. Took it to the machine shop and there was nothing wrong with it. The brg,.'s even still looked like new.
I have a Trans Am with 270k that has been drove hard and put up wet and will had that hand that '07 Camry of yours its @$$ on any track. And its a 91.
My Cressida has been on the road since September of 1983...still runs like a champ. And I'm willing to wager there are a LOT more 80's Toyotas than there are GMs. The Domestics are junk.

repinS

03-07-2007, 09:01 PM

My Cressida has been on the road since September of 1983...still runs like a champ. And I'm willing to wager there are a LOT more 80's Toyotas than there are GMs. The Domestics are junk.
In Ontario, where cars are a lot more disposable due to the massive road salt use, the 1980's Toyotas are practically nil, and the 1980's GM had a little better rust control, but they are still few and far between.

Where you'll see the old cars here are the late 80's early 90's... and you will see plenty of Olds 88's and Buick Regals and Centuries rolling around... yes, they're quite worn and beater looking, but then again, there isn't a single Civic, Accord, AE92 Corolla or etc that doesn't look the same.

It may apply to California, but you may not win the wager up here. ;)

thoots

03-07-2007, 11:44 PM

These people have made up their minds that they will never step into a Ford, GM, or Chrysler dealership ever again...going after them is a waste of time and resources.

You're wrong.

All they have to do is build a decent car. It just has to be as competent as the competition, and as reliable as the competition, and that reliability has to be "long-term." I don't know about you, but I don't want to pay $25,000 or however much you want to drop on something that'll be a worthless piece of junk before I'm done paying for it.

I'm just not going to see one JD Powers report that says one particular domestic model is "good" in some manner, and go run out and buy the thing! If that's all you need, by all means -- go risk your own dough! I'm just waiting for the domestics to at least match the competition that the likes of Honda and Toyota bring to the table, and also to match their long-term reliability.

At any time -- any time they want -- the domestics can feel free to come up with vehicles that don't show the kind of presence they do in the current "Auto" issue of Consumer Reports that's on the stands right now. People have differing feelings about Consumer Reports, but I think it's relatively safe to say that they generally rank most vehicles pretty close to where they stand against the competition, in terms of basic issues like comfort, driveability, fit and finish, and reliability. So, go look at the issue, and look for the domestic cars -- with only a handful of exceptions, they virtually "fill up the bottom" of the ranked lists for each vehicle segment.

When they start filling up the TOP of such lists, and do that consistently for years, then I'll be glad to consider buying one. But, again, to look at the segment that includes Camry and Accord, you have stuff like Malibu and G6 and Sebring absolutely filling up the bottom of the list. Are you REALLY going to spend twenty-five grand for a bottom-feeder vehicle, instead of choosing one from the top part of that list?

I bought a 2007 Camry about a year ago. I certainly considered Fusion and Milan -- mainly Milan -- but there were about a dozen areas where the Camry clearly had it beat. Fusion and Milan are basically just Mazda 6's with Ford bodies and interiors, and that's where I had problems with them -- shortcuts in the interiors, and build quality in the bodies that made them look "cheap to build" instead of the kind of quality I was looking for. "What kind of shortcuts?", you ask? Well, here's one: I wanted leather, heated, power seats. No problem, you can get 'em in any car in the segment these days. Oh, but did you know the seat in the Fusion and the Milan is only "partly" powered? The seatback is still adjusted with a manual lever. I like to adjust while I'm driving along, and I don't expect to lay down this kind of dough and have to fiddle with a manual lever! Little things like that, they may be, but they all add up, and in the end I considered the Fusion and the Milan to be "second rate."

And stuff like Malibu, G6, and Sebring? Absolutely third-rate. You have to ignore a LOT of information to decide one of those things is the best thing to drop your money upon.

No, I won't walk into a dealership to look at those third-rate cars. But I did check out the Milan, pretty thoroughly. And the Camry easily beat it in everything that was important to me.

Earlier, I mentioned the Focus. Ford has other models in Europe that are quite highly regarded -- they've spent some hundreds of millions, if not billions on developing them. Why they decide to "waste" those dollars and instead spend a few million more to "design" stuff like a warmed-over Mazda with a bunch of cost-cutting compromises absolutely boggles my mind. You've done some research, you say? Then you'd know that Honda and especially Toyota haven't leapfrogged over Ford many years ago by deciding "American buyers don't want the good stuff." You might even recall that, once upon a time, the "Ford Taurus" was the highest-selling car in the US. But since then, Honda and Toyota have continually developed their vehicles, and competed for that goal against each other for over a decade. So, what did Ford do? Well, "nothing," pretty much. And sales of the neglected, aging Taurus tanked, and it eventually faded into oblivion.

I think you could say that this illustrates how "world-class" vehicles sell very well, and how mediocre ones that don't get improved over the years don't sell very well at all. If the domestics want to save their businesses by bringing their best to the table, well, it's pretty clear that they've developed vehicles for other markets that truly are "world class." But for some reason, they never seem to choose to build cars like that for this market.

And that's why people like me don't buy their cars.

Z28Wilson

03-08-2007, 09:14 AM

A good post.

All they have to do is build a decent car. It just has to be as competent as the competition, and as reliable as the competition, and that reliability has to be "long-term."

"Long term" is just that...it takes a while to build a "long term" reputation, which most car companies are trying to do with each new model.

I'm just not going to see one JD Powers report that says one particular domestic model is "good" in some manner, and go run out and buy the thing!

Actually, there have been many JD Powers reports on good, and still improving, Domestic quality.

At any time -- any time they want -- the domestics can feel free to come up with vehicles that don't show the kind of presence they do in the current "Auto" issue of Consumer Reports that's on the stands right now.

See? You don't choose to look at JD Powers, or R.L. Polk, or any of the other research houses that curiously don't have the same findings Consumer Reports has. You stick to CR. You can choose whatever publication you want to get your research from, go right ahead, but you're doing just as big a disservice to yourself by only looking at Consumer Reports as the guy who only looks at JD Powers.

People have differing feelings about Consumer Reports, but I think it's relatively safe to say that they generally rank most vehicles pretty close to where they stand against the competition, in terms of basic issues like comfort, driveability, fit and finish, and reliability. So, go look at the issue, and look for the domestic cars -- with only a handful of exceptions, they virtually "fill up the bottom" of the ranked lists for each vehicle segment.

The problems some people have with CR's methods are well documented. I would also add that most of CR's readers are the people that own the Toyotas, the Hondas, the Nissans, etc. When they respond to their surveys, they're probably going to give their cars high marks. That also is relatively safe to say.

Oh, but did you know the seat in the Fusion and the Milan is only "partly" powered? The seatback is still adjusted with a manual lever. I like to adjust while I'm driving along, and I don't expect to lay down this kind of dough and have to fiddle with a manual lever! Little things like that, they may be, but they all add up, and in the end I considered the Fusion and the Milan to be "second rate."

I'm not sure if you can get a fully powered seat in the Fusion/Milan. Did you ask the salesman about this? Make no mistake, you paid for that extra ammenity in your Camry. It could be that Ford's research showed that people didn't care enough to spend an extra $100 or $150 to have a motorized seatback. I don't know. Bad research perhaps? I do understand that it's the little things that give you a better impression of just about any product, but keep in mind, those little things don't come without cost to you, the consumer, either.

84Cressida

03-08-2007, 11:13 PM

A good post.

I'm not sure if you can get a fully powered seat in the Fusion/Milan. Did you ask the salesman about this? Make no mistake, you paid for that extra ammenity in your Camry. It could be that Ford's research showed that people didn't care enough to spend an extra $100 or $150 to have a motorized seatback. I don't know. Bad research perhaps? I do understand that it's the little things that give you a better impression of just about any product, but keep in mind, those little things don't come without cost to you, the consumer, either.
My Cressida could be outfitted with power seats from the factory 23 years ago. No way in hell Ford shouldn't have them on there, especially on the higher priced Milan.

Z28Wilson

03-09-2007, 09:20 AM

My Cressida could be outfitted with power seats from the factory 23 years ago.

The seats are power seats. The seatback just isn't powered to lean back and go forward. According to Ford's website the seats are 6-way power (closer/further from the wheel, raise and lower, tilt forward/back). Toyota's website is a bit more vague in describing the functions of their seats (they just say "multi-adjustable").

CLIFFJONES

03-09-2007, 11:24 AM

My Cressida has been on the road since September of 1983...still runs like a champ. And I'm willing to wager there are a LOT more 80's Toyotas than there are GMs.

Prove it!

RAV4EVR

03-09-2007, 03:08 PM

Prove it!

Prove something to a mind that is as bitter as yours...? That would be a waste of time...
Like I said earlier...... move on with your life .........

engineer

03-09-2007, 04:12 PM

Prove something to a mind that is as bitter as yours...? That would be a waste of time...
Like I said earlier...... move on with your life .........

I think his point was that there are alot of false allegations and lies (passed off as facts) here, and he was calling someone out on it. Simple as that.

On a side note, I do believe that Cliff, Z28, myself and others would have much, much less to say if there was not so much blatant misinformation and made-up "facts" here on TN. As a matter of fact, the only reason I hang around now is to help correct inaccurate information or to discredit anyone who posts something that is a blatant lie (yet they passed it off as fact).

Opinion is one thing, and I do not believe I have ever argued with anyone over their opinion (I honestly cant remember), but to come on here and lie, and make stuff up, and perpetuate myths. . . . .I have an issue with that. This place should be a reputable site for Toyota fans to come and get REAL INFORMATION, not somebody’s opinion passed off as fact. If that means spending 30 minutes of my day doing so, fine.

Something to think about:
To provide misinformation to fellow Toyota enthusiasts does a disservice to them and is a discredit to this site. And as far as opposing opinions go, I honestly cannot see the harm in it. After all it's nice to hear BOTH SIDES OF AN ARGUMENT, not just one as you would have it.

CLIFFJONES

03-09-2007, 04:52 PM

Prove something to a mind that is as bitter as yours...? That would be a waste of time...
Like I said earlier...... move on with your life .........

I have, have you. I have accepted the fact I got bent over this Camry. The fact of the matter is you cant handle the truth. I would say you would know the truth if it slapped you in the face.
I can understand that this is a Toyota site but as EBgineer said to sit there and blatinly state lies that is just plain rediculous.:disappoin

Now learn to face soem real facts and accept the truth for what it is. geeez!!:rolleyes:

CLIFFJONES

03-09-2007, 04:53 PM

I think his point was that there are alot of false allegations and lies (passed off as facts) here, and he was calling someone out on it. Simple as that.

On a side note, I do believe that Cliff, Z28, myself and others would have much, much less to say if there was not so much blatant misinformation and made-up "facts" here on TN. As a matter of fact, the only reason I hang around now is to help correct inaccurate information or to discredit anyone who posts something that is a blatant lie (yet they passed it off as fact).

Opinion is one thing, and I do not believe I have ever argued with anyone over their opinion (I honestly cant remember), but to come on here and lie, and make stuff up, and perpetuate myths. . . . .I have an issue with that. This place should be a reputable site for Toyota fans to come and get REAL INFORMATION, not somebody’s opinion passed off as fact. If that means spending 30 minutes of my day doing so, fine.

Something to think about:
To provide misinformation to fellow Toyota enthusiasts does a disservice to them and is a discredit to this site. And as far as opposing opinions go, I honestly cannot see the harm in it. After all it's nice to hear BOTH SIDES OF AN ARGUMENT, not just one as you would have it.

Thanks, I could have said it better.

CLIFFJONES

03-09-2007, 04:55 PM

Prove something to a mind that is as bitter as yours...? That would be a waste of time...
Like I said earlier...... move on with your life .........

Oh and btw, I am still waiting to see some of that proof, so take aaaaaaaallllllll the time you need.

RAV4EVR

03-09-2007, 05:03 PM

Oh and btw, I am still waiting to see some of that proof, so take aaaaaaaallllllll the time you need.
No Proof......

Toyota sucks.........

Get rid of your car....

Buy GM......

Who gives a shit............ ????

Just stop taking out your "unhappiness" about your toyota here....
because not a single post from you WILL favor TOYOTA hence gives no meaning for you to exist here....

RAV4EVR

03-09-2007, 05:10 PM

On a side note, I do believe that Cliff, Z28, myself and others would have much, much less to say if there was not so much blatant misinformation and made-up "facts" here on TN. As a matter of fact, the only reason I hang around now is to help correct inaccurate information or to discredit anyone who posts something that is a blatant lie (yet they passed it off as fact).

OK.

Anything positive about GM/Ford/Chrysler is always FACTUAL.

Anything positive about Toyota is always not true..

NOW that is all your attitude.....................
Call yourselves well informed............ be my guest... becase I don't care........

EVERY SINGLE post from you THREE/FOUR people is that way....... and you call yourself self-informed..

If you look closely................ it is all OPINIONATED............... Oh I don't like what Toyota did here... Oh I don't like what Toyota did there......

OPINIONS................ OPINIONS..................... OPINIONS..........

Where is the smartness???

I have yet to see it.

JOIN the United Nations... or the Government if you guys thing the world is not going your way and you need stake in fixing it..... because you think it is broken.

Are you at some pointless jobs where you don't have the CONTROL on things? Well, you can prove that online now... :)

Streaker

03-09-2007, 05:13 PM

Toyota car and truck quality may be in a decline but they're still miles ahead of their American competition. Sad, but true!

Streaker

03-09-2007, 05:16 PM

Toyota car & truck quality may be in a decline but they're still miles ahead of their American competition.:sosad:

RAV4EVR

03-09-2007, 05:17 PM

Streaker

03-09-2007, 05:17 PM

Toyota car & truck quality may be in a decline but they're still miles ahead of their American competition.:sosad:Sprry for the double post!

RAV4EVR

03-09-2007, 05:18 PM

Toyota car & truck quality may be in a decline but they're still miles ahead of their American competition.:sosad:

OH PHLEASE... THAT CAN'T BE A FACT TO THSE MORONS BECAUSE IT IS TOYOTA POSITIVE.. THE FACT SHOULD BE THAT IT IS THE OTHER WAY AROUND.... JUST JUST READ THE POSTS FROM THE SO INFORMED DOMESTIC boys IN A FEW MINUTES.....

RAV4EVR

03-09-2007, 05:19 PM

Sprry for the double post!

sorry to who???????????

Only GM/Ford ARROGANT boys exist here now...... No need to be sorry.... When you have the LIKE crowd... respect them all you want.... :thumbup:

CLIFFJONES

03-09-2007, 05:20 PM

CLIFFJONES

03-09-2007, 05:25 PM

OK.

Anything positive about GM/Ford/Chrysler is always FACTUAL.

Anything positive about Toyota is always not true..

NOW that is all your attitude.....................
Call yourselves well informed............ be my guest... becase I don't care........

EVERY SINGLE post from you THREE/FOUR people is that way....... and you call yourself self-informed..

If you look closely................ it is all OPINIONATED............... Oh I don't like what Toyota did here... Oh I don't like what Toyota did there......

OPINIONS................ OPINIONS..................... OPINIONS..........

Where is the smartness???

I have yet to see it.

JOIN the United Nations... or the Government if you guys thing the world is not going your way and you need stake in fixing it..... because you think it is broken.

Are you at some pointless jobs where you don't have the CONTROL on things? Well, you can prove that online now... :)

Again another post from you that is incorrect. As far as smartness well, thatsa 2 way street.
Oh and speakin of the govt I guess you will be voting for Hillary? :lol:

CLIFFJONES

03-09-2007, 05:27 PM

Toyota car & truck quality may be in a decline but they're still miles ahead of their American competition.:sosad:

Yet another post with nothing to back it up.:disappoin Sad but true.

CLIFFJONES

03-09-2007, 05:33 PM

IF I WANT TO KNOW ABOUT THE STUPID GMs and FORDs THEN THERE IS INFORMATION.. AND MAY I SAY AUTHENTIC INFORMATION AVAILABLE OUT THERE.... I DON'T NEED IT FROM THE ENGINEER, I DON'T NEED IT FROM THE MISERABLE CLIFFJONES OR THE MICHIGAN BOY... Z28WILSON.... WHO APPARENTLY LOST HIS GM JOB TO A TOYOTA PLANT OR SOMETHING...

Then dont post facts that arent true. Plain and simple. Oh and I AINT MISERABLE, but I do think you need to go have a beer or something b/c you are stressing out over a debate. Now THATS sad.:disappoin

RAV4EVR

03-09-2007, 05:43 PM

As far as existing I would say that after reading your post that you have that part backwards, so now you why dont you wake up and accept certain truths.

What God Damn truth does the world needs to accept from you 4 people?????

Do you see me whinning all the time how GM sucks??????

YET.... you start whinning whenever a toyota positive comment is put here because you can't stand it......

and as far as you being unhappy.......... IT IS YOU WHO HAS SAID HERE AGAIN AND AGAIN THAT YOU WOULD RATHER WALK than Drive a Toyota.. Are those kinds of comments necessary???

Do hear most Toyota enthusiasts (if there are any left on this board..:rolleyes: thanx to you guys taking over... :rolleyes:) being arrongant like you guys have been??????

I always post something factual (i.e... sales figure...etc..etc..) from Toyota and you come up and start saying, "Oh that is not true or will change if it is true."

RAV4EVR

03-09-2007, 05:46 PM

If U Guys Want People Selling Their Toyotas And Buying Gms, Then The Least You Can Do Is Be Fair With Your Comments Here...

You Know What..... Who Cares Anymore... Most Toyota Enthusiasts Have Left This Baord So U Guys Discuss Anything You Want Anyway You Want.... Cuz It Doesn't Matter.....

RAV4EVR

03-09-2007, 05:48 PM

Yet another post with nothing to back it up.:disappoin Sad but true.

Because you don't BELIEVE what you want to belive in... Let's forget a million articles out there and people's expereinces.....
there is nothing to back it up... YOUR brain is enough to back everything up :thumbup:

AGAIN YOU WILL BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT TO BELIEVE AND NOTHING WILL CHANGE THAT.. IT IS CALLED SELF-PRIDE... U WILL LOOSE IT IF U GIVE IN....

Streaker

03-09-2007, 05:56 PM

engineer

03-09-2007, 06:00 PM

No Proof......

Toyota sucks.........

Get rid of your car....

Buy GM......

Who gives a shit............ ????

Just stop taking out your "unhappiness" about your toyota here....
because not a single post from you WILL favor TOYOTA hence gives no meaning for you to exist here....

OK.

Anything positive about GM/Ford/Chrysler is always FACTUAL.

Anything positive about Toyota is always not true..

NOW that is all your attitude.....................
Call yourselves well informed............ be my guest... becase I don't care........

EVERY SINGLE post from you THREE/FOUR people is that way....... and you call yourself self-informed..

If you look closely................ it is all OPINIONATED............... Oh I don't like what Toyota did here... Oh I don't like what Toyota did there......

OPINIONS................ OPINIONS..................... OPINIONS..........

Where is the smartness???

I have yet to see it.

JOIN the United Nations... or the Government if you guys thing the world is not going your way and you need stake in fixing it..... because you think it is broken.

Are you at some pointless jobs where you don't have the CONTROL on things? Well, you can prove that online now...

IF I WANT TO KNOW ABOUT THE STUPID GMs and FORDs THEN THERE IS INFORMATION.. AND MAY I SAY AUTHENTIC INFORMATION AVAILABLE OUT THERE.... I DON'T NEED IT FROM THE ENGINEER, I DON'T NEED IT FROM THE MISERABLE CLIFFJONES OR THE MICHIGAN BOY... Z28WILSON.... WHO APPARENTLY LOST HIS GM JOB TO A TOYOTA PLANT OR SOMETHING...

OH PHLEASE... THAT CAN'T BE A FACT TO THSE MORONS BECAUSE IT IS TOYOTA POSITIVE.. THE FACT SHOULD BE THAT IT IS THE OTHER WAY AROUND.... JUST JUST READ THE POSTS FROM THE SO INFORMED DOMESTIC boys IN A FEW MINUTES.....

sorry to who???????????

Only GM/Ford ARROGANT boys exist here now...... No need to be sorry.... When you have the LIKE crowd... respect them all you want....

What God Damn truth does the world needs to accept from you 4 people?????

Do you see me whinning all the time how GM sucks??????

YET.... you start whinning whenever a toyota positive comment is put here because you can't stand it......

and as far as you being unhappy.......... IT IS YOU WHO HAS SAID HERE AGAIN AND AGAIN THAT YOU WOULD RATHER WALK than Drive a Toyota.. Are those kinds of comments necessary???

Do hear most Toyota enthusiasts (if there are any left on this board.. thanx to you guys taking over... ) being arrongant like you guys have been??????

I always post something factual (i.e... sales figure...etc..etc..) from Toyota and you come up and start saying, "Oh that is not true or will change if it is true."

If U Guys Want People Selling Their Toyotas And Buying Gms, Then The Least You Can Do Is Be Fair With Your Comments Here...

You Know What..... Who Cares Anymore... Most Toyota Enthusiasts Have Left This Baord So U Guys Discuss Anything You Want Anyway You Want.... Cuz It Doesn't Matter.....

Because you don't BELIEVE what you want to belive in... Let's forget a million articles out there and people's expereinces.....
there is nothing to back it up... YOUR brain is enough to back everything up

AGAIN YOU WILL BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT TO BELIEVE AND NOTHING WILL CHANGE THAT.. IT IS CALLED SELF-PRIDE... U WILL LOOSE IT IF U GIVE IN....

Now that’s the RAV4EVR I remember. . . . . you’ve been so quiet recently. . . . it’s good to have you back!!!

And I don’t think all the Toyota fans have left. I do think they think twice about posting their opinion (based on myths or lies perpetuated by some here on TN). That, my friend, is a good thing, IMHO. It forces you (them) to think about what you believe and be prepared to defend it. If you (they) cannot, or are unwilling, then that is your (their) fault, not ours. . . . .

BTW. I am very fair with what I say. GM has many faults (most of which are being corrected), and for the most part Toyota is pretty solid. I have no problems with Toyota (or their cars), but I do have a problem with the free pass they are constantly given by the press and general public (as a result of the press). Toyota is a great company, who makes great cars. . . . .their just not as great as some here make them out to be. If anything, sifting through all of the other forums on this site convinces me that problems do (gasp!!) exist on Toyota’s (and some are chronic). . . . that is something the general public is never told.

engineer

03-09-2007, 06:08 PM

I've owned Chevy, Pontiac, Buick. Oldsmobile, Ford, Chrysler, and AMC products over the years and some others I've probably forgotten. Years ago, back in the 60's and early 70's GM cars were great. Then something happened corporately and quality declined. Thats when I switched to Chrysler and had a good ten year run with Chrysler products. After a few problems I switched to Ford in the late 80's and though I had problems with them I enjoyed their cars and trucks till April 2006 when I purchased my present 2007 Camry SE. I have always heard about Toyota quality. This is my first Toyota. My son has had 3 and swears by them. I have not had it long enough to judge its reliability or quality. I am presently experiecing the shift /flare problem with the transmission but I had a lot more problems with new domestic cars in the past. Just my opinion for what its worth?;)

I have wanted to ask this question to someone that is unbiased, and you seem to be well informed, so here it goes:

Do (did) you feel your problem is (was) isolated, or that you just had "bad luck" when you first experienced the transmission flare in your Camry? Conversely, if it were to have happened in a Domestic product, would you have felt that was "common" and "yet again" proof that the Domestics quality is poor?

In other words, "you must have just gotten a bad Toyota, because Toyota quality is great", vs. "Damn-it, I knew I should have gotten a foreign car like my son said, this <domestic product> sucks!!" (assuming you had bought a domestic, of course).

I am honestly curious. I contend that if someone "takes a chance" on a domestic and it has an issue, they are less inclined to use the "I must have gotten a bad one" excuse, while if the same issue happened to a foreign car, they chalk it up to "dumb luck".

This question is asked in all seriousness, no hidden agenda, honestly. Thanks in advance.:)

Streaker

03-09-2007, 06:25 PM

engineer

03-09-2007, 06:41 PM

I read about the problem before I experienced it. It did not happen till I had approx. 8,000 mi. on my car. I am a creature of habit when it comes to driving. I have a heavy foot so any driveline problems show up quickly.

I know about the heavy foot thing, I have the same affliction. . . .:)

Not sure you answered my question though. . . .

Do you feel this is a normal problem and not an indication of Toyota's quality? Has it shaken your belief that all Toyota's are quality cars? If it were a domestic, would it "prove" that domestic cars were unreliable?

My thesis is that people that experience problems in their Toyota's are more inclined to forgive them (however drastic or costly) vs if the same problem were to occur in a domestic. The perceived quality of a Toyota is enough to convince the car buying public that they just had bad luck with their Toyota, however when a problem arises in a domestic, they see that as proof that domestics are inferior. I'm not sure I can say it any differently. . . .:confused:

CLIFFJONES

03-09-2007, 08:35 PM

Do you see me whinning all the time how GM sucks??????

Hmmm, more or less I would tend to think so from your post, but like you say who cares?

YET.... you start whinning whenever a toyota positive comment is put here because you can't stand it......
Hmmm, no dont think its whinning its jsut that when certain (we will call them rocket scientist), post and have not one shread of evidence to back it up then thats not a whine but its a question, where's the proof? The other poster said that stated that there are more 80+ models of Toyota's on the road today than Gm and I aksed for the proof. DO you have any proof of this?[/quote]
and as far as you being unhappy.......... IT IS YOU WHO HAS SAID HERE AGAIN AND AGAIN THAT YOU WOULD RATHER WALK than Drive a Toyota.. Are those kinds of comments necessary???
Yes, I did one time. I was being sarcastic and no more necssary than your use of fowl language.

Do hear most Toyota enthusiasts (if there are any left on this board..:rolleyes: thanx to you guys taking over... :rolleyes:) being arrongant like you guys have been??????
Hmmm, I havent been arrogant. IMO, it may be you who has been arrogant when you get sooooo upset your about to pop a blood vessel over a simple and calm discussion.

I always post something factual (i.e... sales figure...etc..etc..) from Toyota and you come up and start saying, "Oh that is not true or will change if it is true."

And just where did I post this? :confused:

Streaker

03-09-2007, 08:58 PM

If you read the posts which I'm sure you do, as I do anyone would summize that the trans shift/flare is not an isolated incident. Yes my faith in Toyota is shaken somewhat. I hope that Toyota resolves the problem soon. As far as if it were domestic would it make a difference "no". I think because in my case anyway its the only defect I have found so far. I don't think domestics are inferior. I've just had a lot more issues with domestic cars. I hope this reply answers your question. Forgive the grammer and lack of proper punctuations as I was never a good English student.:burnout:

CDub LXi

03-10-2007, 12:41 AM

My problems with cars previous...

1987 Honda Accord LXi hatchback 5spd
* Oil leaks... a lot of them
* Overheating constantly
* Rusted bolts everywhere

1992 Nissan 240SX
* Burned oil
* Engine had loud clap when it was running... sold car before fixed it
* Driver side headlamp went out. Turned out to be headlight switch
* Flip up light motors went out
* Rust issues again...

1991 Honda Accord EX
* Burned oil
* Speed sensor bad (no speedometer because of this)
* Power seat belts quit working
* Muffler fell off due to rust

1993 Honda Accord LX
* Burned oil
* Driver door wouldn't shut properly... continually had to adjust it
* Would not start occasionally.. had to let it sit then it would start
* Radio would turn on and off when brakes applied

2001 Toyota Camry
* smoked at startup. Cleared up after 2 or so minutes of idle

1999 Chrysler Sebring
* Burned oil
* Battery light would come on and off for no reason
* Auto dimming mirror with compass would turn on for no reason

1998 Chevy C1500
* Small oil leak due to rear main seal (VERY common for full size trucks I've been told)

The rest of my cars have been virtually problem free minus minor things here and there. I hope it stays that way too.

You'll notice a lot of my cars burned oil. This is due to either myself or my fiance having a heavy foot. This happend on Japanese and Domestic cars the like.

The rust issues... remember, I live in Nashville, TN... where it RARELY snows. The only car I have listed that came from up north was the 1991 Honda Accord EX. It was purchased in TN then went to Alaska and back to TN when I bought it. The others, were all locally owned and sold.

I also had a 1989 Toyota Corolla that blew up on me.. but I was a young, dumb teenager when I had it (first car) so I'm surprised it lasted me as long as it did.

I often tell people, "Any car can go 200,000 miles plus. You just have to properly maintain them." I also tell them, "Hondas and Toyotas just let you abuse them more in my experience." I had a friend that didn't change his oil for 15,000 miles about 5 years ago... the Honda still runs to this day.

CDub LXi

03-10-2007, 12:44 AM

For pictures of all the cars I've owned,
http://apps.rockyou.com/rockyou.swf?instanceid=34959430&nopanel=true&ver=060721

The only one not shown is the '03 Mitsubishi Diamante we just purchased a couple days ago.

ECHOKnight2000

03-10-2007, 02:12 PM

^^^Pretty nice cars that you've owned. You seem to like those Accords...not that its bad or anything, of course being a Honduh it has a lot of aftermarket stuff for it. Anyway nice selection!:thumbup:

CDub LXi

03-11-2007, 09:44 AM

Thanks. Yeah I have a special connection with those Accords...

We used to joke about it and say you could go to Texaco and buy clears for it

Georgenfla

03-12-2007, 06:46 AM

The last decent GM cars, and I mean reliability factors, were manufactured in the early 70s.

CDub LXi

03-12-2007, 08:09 AM

/\ Yeah, the Caprice cop cars they ran in the early '90s didn't last did they? 200,000 miles without having to worry about them at all regularly....

Pavel Olavich

03-28-2007, 05:46 PM

I trust a copy of Consumer Reports as being fair and balanced about as far as I can throw it. Same thing with Car & Driver and their highly opinionated "gotta have it" rating system.

It is much like what happened with GM in the 70s...so much that it's like Deja Vu. So many people on this website only care about Toyota becoming the #1 so they can pat each other on the backs and give hive fives. Meanwhile, the negative articles about Toyota have been mulitiplying over the last few months...I said countless times months ago that Toyota's quick growth was going to have consequences, and look what is happening now. GM is no longer weak...Ford is slowly coming around...Toyota has new stronger competition from the Americans and the free passes they received from the media for so many years are no longer being given out.

Toyota needs to tread carefully with its explosive growth...quality is what got it where it is and is what it has built its reputation upon. But when your recalls triple over three years and the media backlash begins, it's not a walk in the park any longer. And if Toyota becomes #1, just wait....all eyes will be on them for every single little thing they do wrong, just like it has been for GM.

This is going to be an interesting year to see what happens.

Sorry but your surmise of the situation is profoundly way off the deep end. Toyata like GM in the '70s? This is patently untrue, to be sure, and not even close. Today Toyota makes the best products...in the '70's GM made really bad products, so were is the similarities?

The big 3 domestics are still light years away from Honda/Toyota reliability/dependability/resale/Efficiency/Quality, to be sure.

As for ConsumerReports, those that don't trust it are mostly those that have irrational love the domestics, are often over 50 years of age, and are in massive denial about the true differences between the Japanese cars and the American domestics.

I love CR. I drive a 2007 Toyota Yaris. I'm happy.

Pavel Olavich

03-28-2007, 05:50 PM

/\ Yeah, the Caprice cop cars they ran in the early '90s didn't last did they? 200,000 miles without having to worry about them at all regularly....

Those were the EXCEPTIONS and not the rule....and the Chevy's of the early, mid, and late '70s were very, very bad cars....horrible for reliability. This was also true of Ford and Chrysler too.

CLIFFJONES

03-28-2007, 07:59 PM

Those were the EXCEPTIONS and not the rule....and the Chevy's of the early, mid, and late '70s were very, very bad cars....horrible for reliability. This was also true of Ford and Chrysler too.

Ok, then if the big 3 made such bad cars in the 70's then why are there soooo many of them still around today and if Toyota's cars are far superior than the big 3's then hwy don I see more of the 70 and 80 model's on the road today?:confused:

pat99872

03-28-2007, 11:41 PM

I just wanted to stir the pot. I noticed this thread has turned into a shitfest.

I'm very happy with my japanese vehicles as well as plenty of other people I know. I will NEVER waste my hard earned money on a shitty UAW built domestic vehicle ever again. Hell even $10,000 cash incentive won't even pursuade me.

nyscene911

03-29-2007, 09:48 AM

Why the hell do people register for the site and then bump up old, dead threads. Is there a way to only let Noobs respond to RECENT threads?

ECHOKnight2000

03-29-2007, 09:43 PM

Ok, then if the big 3 made such bad cars in the 70's then why are there soooo many of them still around today and if Toyota's cars are far superior than the big 3's then hwy don I see more of the 70 and 80 model's on the road today?:confused:

You may have a point but also remember imports accounted for a very, very, low market share at that time. Probably not until the gas crisis of the 70's early 80's did people reconize the smaller efficient Japanese cars and I know especially in the 80's the stigmatism (generally speaking) was buy "American" and not Japanese and yes that's still around today but not as much as Toyota is gaining more market share every year.:thumbup:

CDub LXi

03-31-2007, 09:43 AM

Why the hell do people register for the site and then bump up old, dead threads. Is there a way to only let Noobs respond to RECENT threads?

Why would you do that when forums generally put an emphasis on using the search function? People bumping old threads show that people still search.... something that if you don't search and ask a question or make a comment that's been discussed, you'll get your head chewed off! :hammer:

nyscene911

03-31-2007, 01:59 PM

Why would you do that when forums generally put an emphasis on using the search function? People bumping old threads show that people still search.... something that if you don't search and ask a question or make a comment that's been discussed, you'll get your head chewed off! :hammer:

Yeah search is good like that for finding information. But it seems like people like to register to just bump up old threads to turn up shit and get a flame war started again. Ehh, whatever.

dsmnick

04-02-2007, 09:16 AM

Sorry but your surmise of the situation is profoundly way off the deep end. Toyata like GM in the '70s? This is patently untrue, to be sure, and not even close. Today Toyota makes the best products...in the '70's GM made really bad products, so were is the similarities?

The big 3 domestics are still light years away from Honda/Toyota reliability/dependability/resale/Efficiency/Quality, to be sure.

As for ConsumerReports, those that don't trust it are mostly those that have irrational love the domestics, are often over 50 years of age, and are in massive denial about the true differences between the Japanese cars and the American domestics.

I love CR. I drive a 2007 Toyota Yaris. I'm happy.

I just saw your post...I don't get to check TN as often anymore due to our poor internet connection here. I will never take the internet for granted back in the States again...so much more reliable!

But to answer your post, I was alluding more toward the arrogant Toyota management of late. No, they haven't started building cars like the GM X-bodies of the late 70s / early 80s, but they have also been receiving unflattering reviews from a number of magazines hinting at cost and corner-cutting. I think your statement of "light years" is highly overexaggerated with no backing. You may have been right about that comment five years ago, but not today with the new product. Most manufacturers these days are on equal footing when it comes to product quality...there are no longer large gaps like there were back in the 80s and 90s.

Consumer Reports has proven that its rating system and system of sampling opinions is flawed; these are the same people that once recommended the Toyota Matrix while not recommending the Pontiac Vibe even though they are the same vehicle. The ratings are generated from readers opinions, and most of the people that subscribe to CR are the import crowd anyway. I'm neither old nor entirely pro-domestic...I lean toward manufacturers that produce performance cars, whether that be Ford, GM, Nissan, or BMW. But to rely on one magazine's opinion for something as important as a vehicle purchase is naive...if one really likes Toyotas and has had good experience, by all means. But the sheeple out there who settle on a Toyota because CR says it's good and doing a little research is too tiring...well, they deserve it if they miss out on something that might have suited them better (be it price, options, quality, etc).

Like one magazine editor said (and I'm paraphrasing this)...buying a Toyota by default, you will get a good, reliable car. But you may not get the best car for your money.

ECHOKnight2000

04-02-2007, 08:04 PM

I just saw your post...I don't get to check TN as often anymore due to our poor internet connection here. I will never take the internet for granted back in the States again...so much more reliable!

But to answer your post, I was alluding more toward the arrogant Toyota management of late. No, they haven't started building cars like the GM X-bodies of the late 70s / early 80s, but they have also been receiving unflattering reviews from a number of magazines hinting at cost and corner-cutting. I think your statement of "light years" is highly overexaggerated with no backing. You may have been right about that comment five years ago, but not today with the new product. Most manufacturers these days are on equal footing when it comes to product quality...there are no longer large gaps like there were back in the 80s and 90s.

Consumer Reports has proven that its rating system and system of sampling opinions is flawed; these are the same people that once recommended the Toyota Matrix while not recommending the Pontiac Vibe even though they are the same vehicle. The ratings are generated from readers opinions, and most of the people that subscribe to CR are the import crowd anyway. I'm neither old nor entirely pro-domestic...I lean toward manufacturers that produce performance cars, whether that be Ford, GM, Nissan, or BMW. But to rely on one magazine's opinion for something as important as a vehicle purchase is naive...if one really likes Toyotas and has had good experience, by all means. But the sheeple out there who settle on a Toyota because CR says it's good and doing a little research is too tiring...well, they deserve it if they miss out on something that might have suited them better (be it price, options, quality, etc).

Like one magazine editor said (and I'm paraphrasing this)...buying a Toyota by default, you will get a good, reliable car. But you may not get the best car for your money.

You make some good points.:clap: :thumbup: Lately I'm worried about Toyota and its direction as far as getting too big too fast and mismangement as far as quality in some areas, although it hasn't gotten out of control yet....

Bugmenot

04-02-2007, 09:22 PM

I just saw your post...I don't get to check TN as often anymore due to our poor internet connection here. I will never take the internet for granted back in the States again...so much more reliable!

But to answer your post, I was alluding more toward the arrogant Toyota management of late. No, they haven't started building cars like the GM X-bodies of the late 70s / early 80s, but they have also been receiving unflattering reviews from a number of magazines hinting at cost and corner-cutting. I think your statement of "light years" is highly overexaggerated with no backing. You may have been right about that comment five years ago, but not today with the new product. Most manufacturers these days are on equal footing when it comes to product quality...there are no longer large gaps like there were back in the 80s and 90s.

Consumer Reports has proven that its rating system and system of sampling opinions is flawed; these are the same people that once recommended the Toyota Matrix while not recommending the Pontiac Vibe even though they are the same vehicle. The ratings are generated from readers opinions, and most of the people that subscribe to CR are the import crowd anyway. I'm neither old nor entirely pro-domestic...I lean toward manufacturers that produce performance cars, whether that be Ford, GM, Nissan, or BMW. But to rely on one magazine's opinion for something as important as a vehicle purchase is naive...if one really likes Toyotas and has had good experience, by all means. But the sheeple out there who settle on a Toyota because CR says it's good and doing a little research is too tiring...well, they deserve it if they miss out on something that might have suited them better (be it price, options, quality, etc).

Like one magazine editor said (and I'm paraphrasing this)...buying a Toyota by default, you will get a good, reliable car. But you may not get the best car for your money.

Ya, but the Matrix is built at Toyota's own plant in TMMC Cambridge and the Vibe is build at NUMMI which GM and Toyota share. Maybe that's why they saparated the Vibe and Matrix because they know there might be a quality difference.

And to ECHOKnight2000, Toyota is already making steps to improve their quality like extending the new Corolla launch by a year to fix any kinks that might occur and to retrain all the plant workers. Though, I do feel your pain of Watanable's cost cutting initiatives. Maybe when Akio Toyoda takes over, thing will change for the good.:whatwhat: