The Plug-in Hybrid race is on!

It looks like the race is really and truly on...

Toyota confirms 2010 release date for plug-in hybrid

Toyota has confirmed it will release a plug-in hybrid vehicle powered by next-generation lithium-ion batteries in Japan, the U.S. and Europe by 2010. The batteries for the future car will be manufactured in a joint-venture with Matsushita Electric and will start initial production next year before going into full-scale production in 2010.

The first batch of plug-in hybrids will be chargeable from a regular household power outlet and will be targeted at leasing customers, Toyota execs revealed today.

Toyota will also establish a new battery research department to develop advanced power storage technology superior to even lithium-ion batteries for its future generation of hybrid and all-electric vehicles, Reuters reports. Additionally, Toyota is also developing advanced hydrogen technology and only this week revealed its fifth-generation fuel-cell vehicle.

Soon after the 2010 deadline, Toyota expects to be selling one million hybrid vehicles per year and will be offering the petrol-electric option on many more models...

Toyota’s other green initiatives include new ultra-efficient 1.3L and 2.5L petrol engines with stop-start technology, a new highly efficient compact six-speed manual transmission, and plans to reduce carbon dioxide emissions from factories to 35% of 2001 levels by 2010.Source: http://www.motorauthority.com/cars/toyota/toyota-confirms-2010-release-date-for-plug-in-hybrid


Toyota pledges plug-in hybrid with Li-ion batteries by 2010

...While the next-gen Prius is also right around corner (should debut in January at the 2009 Detroit Auto Show, but will reportedly still use NiMH batteries), Toyota recently gave its word that it would also have a plug-in hybrid vehicle using lithium-ion batteries on sale in Japan, the U.S. and Europe by 2010... Toyota has partnered with electronics giant Matsushita, however, and their joint-venture will begin producing lithium-ion batteries in 2009 and ramp up to full production in 2010. Other than that, we know very little about Toyota's 2010 plug-in hybrid, other than that it should get great gas mileage. Toyota also announced that it's setting up a battery research department to develop a new type of battery that can even outperform li-ions...Source: http://www.autoblog.com/2008/06/11/toyota-pledges-plug-in-hybrid-with-li-ion-batteries-by-2010/

that's great news... just hope that the price will be "affordable"...

by 2010, gas will probably be $10+ a gallon... :sosad:

research into an even bettr battery
soon we will see full on electrics =D

Nope, it'll never happen. It will be 2014 before it will ever deliver what was promised.

It's all lies.

Vfan

:rolleyes:

research into an even bettr battery
soon we will see full on electrics =D

It's pretty exciting times. But even Toyota is saying calm down on the lith-ion battery expectations.



Bill Reinert said that the demands of real-world driving, such as rapid acceleration on freeway entrances, could dramatically reduce the all-electric range of plug-ins, whenever they hit the market.


"When we see the (claims of) 100 mile-per-gallon stuff, not everybody's going to get 100 miles per gallon," Reinert said.
He is national manager of the advanced technology group for Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A. Inc. He was on a panel at Washington conference on plug-ins and afterward spoke to Automotive News.
A plug-in hybrid would have a more robust battery pack than a traditional gasoline-electric hybrid. In theory, with recharging from electrical outlets, it could operate much longer on electric-only power than other hybrids.
Proponents contend that an all-electric range of 40 miles would satisfy the daily needs of most drivers, giving them the equivalent of 100 mpg or more and dramatically cutting petroleum demands.
40 miles per charge is very unlikely with lith-ion.

Fan

It's pretty exciting times. But even Toyota is saying calm down on the lith-ion battery expectations.

40 miles per charge is very unlikely with lith-ion.

Fan

Care to back that up with some facts? Or is this your "expert" opinion? Or is it simply unlikely only because GM said the Volt will be capable of it?

40 miles per charge may be what people get
or like what people can expect to get

better worded as UP TO 40 miles on a charge

remember that with cars you can get UP TO so and so MPG

im sure people with heavy foot wont get 40 MPC

same as people get lower than expected MPG

but we will see
we will see

Care to back that up with some facts? Or is this your "expert" opinion? Or is it simply unlikely only because GM said the Volt will be capable of it?
He's saying it because it's common sense, and based on what we know today about lith-ion cells.

But you think everything is GM bashing. :lol:

He's saying it because it's common sense, and based on what we know today about lith-ion cells.

But you think everything is GM bashing. :lol:

:lol: :lol: :lol: Yeah, common sense alright. cuz EVERYONE knows about Li-Ion batteries and their capabilities. It's common knowledge!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

You never cease to amaze me with your comments. :clap:

Maybe someone should enlighten the Engineers with this "common sense" huh? :lol:

Actually, it is common sense. If you stop and think about it, how far you will be able to go on a charge will really depend upon your driving habits and whether the roads you drive on are hilly or not and how much stop and go driving you do.

Actually, it is common sense. If you stop and think about it, how far you will be able to go on a charge will really depend upon your driving habits and whether the roads you drive on are hilly or not and how much stop and go driving you do.

Well, no kidding!!! But how is saying "40 miles on one charge is unlikely" common sense? Nice spin!

Show me some facts, otherwise it's all speculation and opinion. If they said "40 miles per charge under optimum conditions", then yes, it would be common sense to assume less than optimum conditions would result in less than 40 miles per charge.

Show me some facts, otherwise it's all speculation and opinion.

Show us some facts. I'll wait for you to show us all how far a lithium ion equipped hybrid can travel on battery power alone. If you can't, then my speculation is just as good as yours.

And yes I was speculating, and basing my opinion on what I know of different battery technologies. Some people actually use their brain and make educated assessments instead of constantly going off on a fanboy rant. You are the most insecure poster I have seen in a long time. Everything to you is personal, every tiny point that makes GM look bad, you come unglued. It's not personal for fuck sake get over yourself already.

BTW, get educated and go read about different battery tech and the storage energy they are capable of. Then you will be able to make reasonable guesses, instead of assuming.

BTW, get educated and go read about different battery tech and the storage energy they are capable of. Then you will be able to make reasonable guesses, instead of assuming.

Why do I need to "get educated"...you can't teach "common sense".

Ok, Mr Scholar, if you are so educated, post the facts I asked for stating 40 miles per charge is unlikely. I'll wait.......

I am sure the Engineers who have been testing the Volt and have already concluded that the Volt will indeed be capable of 40 miles per charge would LOVE to hear your "reasonable guesses" :lol: :lol: :lol:

Lithium Ion batteries have a specific energy density of 200 Wh/kg. NiMH is sitting at about 70 Wh/kg. So let's say the Volt has 3 times the battery capacity of a Prius by weight, but uses lithium ion cells. The Prius can travel perhaps 5 miles on battery power alone, actually probably less but let's say 5 miles.

So using the above, which is a rough guess because we don't have access to near enough info, the Volt would be sitting at around 42 miles on a charge. And this is absolute best case scenario. Turn on the heat or AC, push the vehicle up a hill merging onto a freeway, the number will drop very quickly. Hence the reasonable statement that common sense tells us the claimed range is going to be less in real world driving.

I am speculating on quite a bit, but I am using the info available to me. Vmax you are free to counter my numbers. But the claimed range of the Volt seems like a very lofty goal. Even Toyota, which you have to admit, has by far the most hybrid experience, is saying that their plugin hybrid with a Toyota badge will have no where near the claimed range of the Volt.

So either Toyota is soon to be very behind in hybrid tech, or GM is being overly optimistic and their claim is largely marketing bluster.

Now maybe the Volt has 5 times the battery capacity by weight as Prius I don't know. But it can't be too high because it will put the cost of the car out of reach. (and increase the danger if the batteries fail)

Lithium Ion batteries have a specific energy density of 200 Wh/kg. NiMH is sitting at about 70 Wh/kg. So let's say the Volt has 3 times the battery capacity of a Prius by weight, but uses lithium ion cells. The Prius can travel perhaps 5 miles on battery power alone, actually probably less but let's say 5 miles.

So using the above, which is a rough guess because we don't have access to near enough info, the Volt would be sitting at around 42 miles on a charge. And this is absolute best case scenario (how do you know this?). Turn on the heat or AC, push the vehicle up a hill merging onto a freeway, the number will drop very quickly. Hence the reasonable statement that common sense tells us the claimed range is going to be less in real world driving.

I am speculating on quite a bit, but I am using the info available to me. Vmax you are free to counter my numbers. But the claimed range of the Volt seems like a very lofty goal. Even Toyota, which you have to admit, has by far the most hybrid experience (yes, in sales, not technology), is saying that their plugin hybrid with a Toyota badge will have no where near the claimed range of the Volt.

So either Toyota is soon to be very behind in hybrid tech, or GM is being overly optimistic and their claim is largely marketing bluster. More speculation on your part.

Now maybe the Volt has 5 times the battery capacity by weight as Prius I don't know. But it can't be too high because it will put the cost of the car out of reach. (and increase the danger if the batteries fail) Again, more speculation on your part

Countering your "common sense" statement does not require numbers. I just highlighted your post to show you did it for me. :D

Countering your "common sense" statement does not require numbers. I just highlighted your post to show you did it for me. :D

There has been some talk recently that Toyota's Hybrid Synergy Drive is not a technologically good hybrid system, and I assume that the posters are comparing it with the GM hybrid systems.

As an engineer, I am naturally curious, and would be interested in finding out more about all the different hybrid systems (Toyota's HSD, Honda's IMA, GM's systems, Volkswagen/Audi/Porsche's system, etc.), and especially how someone may consider one system to be better than another. Could you, Vmax2007, explain to me the differences between the various hybrid systems out there, and what would make one system better than another?

I seem to remember asking another member (who so happens to also be a Domestic Fan) this question before, but could not get an answer, only the run-around. I trust that you will not do the same. Opinions are fine, as long as it is backed up (in other words, I am assuming that any opinions formed are educated opinions, and not merely "mine is better than yours").

Thanks in advance.

Well, no kidding!!! But how is saying "40 miles on one charge is unlikely" common sense? Nice spin!

Show me some facts, otherwise it's all speculation and opinion. If they said "40 miles per charge under optimum conditions", then yes, it would be common sense to assume less than optimum conditions would result in less than 40 miles per charge.
Its called, "marketing". Do you honestly think that GM is going to give the lowest amount of miles that they have gotten that car to go on a charge? No. They are going to give you the longest distance it will go on a charge to make it seem like such great, new technology.
Its just like in the Prius ads when they say it gets 45 mpg. It does get 45 mpg, in city driving. For most people who do more highway driving than city driving, its a lot closer to 35 mpg, but Toyota isnt going to say that, because then people would be saying, "why pay $20,000 for a Prius when I could get a Corolla, Focus or Cobalt that gets the same milage but costs about $5,000 less?"
Its called marketing and they ALL do it. Thats right, even GM. :D
I'll admit that Im not an expert on battery technology, nor am I an automotive engineer. However, if you think that the 40 miles per charge number that GM gives is the least distance that car goes on a charge, well, I wont go there... :lol:

Sulu and Bakemono,

First of all I am NOT an expert on Hybrid systems and I am certainly not qualified to give any "expert" opinions on which system is better or whose is better than whose.

I would like to clarify that I am NOT saying GM's systems are any better or any worse than Toyota's. What I was debunking in the past several posts was the claim that is is "common sense" to assume that 40 MPC is "unlikely" when NOBODY on this forum has enough info or facts to make that statement. It is all merely opinions and pure speculation which most are biased against GM. Comparing MPG claims (which BTW are actually alot more accurate since the 2008's changed the way they report MPG estimates) and GM's claim for 40 MPC is not apples to apples.

Most people here assume I am here bashing Toyota, which is simply NOT true!!! I do defend baseless and biased statements against GM however, especially when they are completely ignorant. Why must Toyota fans (not all of you) bash GM on technology such as the Volt in order to support your favorite brand? I am sure Toyota's plug-in Hybrid will be every bit as advanced and just as good as the Volt's, maybe even better. So what's the point of bashing the Volt and assuming it will fail or not live up to it's expectations?

I have asked this question before, specifically to fanfan, and have yet to receive an answer from anyone.

Most people here assume I am here bashing Toyota, which is simply NOT true!!!
I disagree. You take every opportunity to rip on Toyota. Its OK and you certainly have the right to your opinion. At the very least its entertaining.
I do defend baseless and biased statements against GM however, especially when they are completely ignorant. Why must Toyota fans (not all of you) bash GM on technology such as the Volt in order to support your favorite brand? I am sure Toyota's plug-in Hybrid will be every bit as advanced and just as good as the Volt's, maybe even better. So what's the point of bashing the Volt and assuming it will fail or not live up to it's expectations?

I have asked this question before, specifically to fanfan, and have yet to receive an answer from anyone.
I'll give you an answer to that question. Quite simply it boils down to past performance. GM likes to talk the talk, but in a lot of cases they cant walk the walk. GM makes all these big promises and more often then not, they arent able to deliver on the promises.
I make no secret of the fact that I despise General Motors. Always have and I probably always will. Im not going to sit here and try to claim that I dont enjoy ripping on GM and laughing at their failures. I do. :D
This is a Toyota forum and most of us here are Toyota enthusiasts. Afterall, last time I checked, this site is called, "Toyota Nation", not, "General Motors Nation". You almost have to expect a fair amount of bashing other automakers.
Im sure that on GMI they constantly praise Toyota.....right? :lol:

I make no secret of the fact that I despise General Motors. Always have and I probably always will. Im not going to sit here and try to claim that I dont enjoy ripping on GM and laughing at their failures. I do. :D
This is a Toyota forum and most of us here are Toyota enthusiasts. Afterall, last time I checked, this site is called, "Toyota Nation", not, "General Motors Nation". You almost have to expect a fair amount of bashing other automakers.
Im sure that on GMI they constantly praise Toyota.....right? :lol:

Why do you despise GM? Just curious.

Yes, this is a Toyota enthusiast's site. But it's not a "let's all rip GM" site. Is it? There is far less Toyota bashing at GMI than there is GM bashing here. Also, at GM-Trucks there is very little Toyota bashing. An occasional joke or jab at Toyota maybe, but very very few and far between. GM truck enthusiasts enjoy discussing their GM trucks, both good and bad. They don't feel the need to rip Toyota to make themselves feel better about their GM trucks.

If it makes you feel better by hating GM and bashing them, then go right ahead. But be careful about throwing stones in glass houses.

Oh, and please show me where I "take every opportunity to rip Toyota" on this site?

Why do you despise GM? Just curious.
Antiquated engine technology. They are still holding onto pushrod engine technology. Its 2008, not 1978; get with the times.
GM talks big and doesnt usually deliever on it and GM constantly rips on Toyota in their ad campaigns. IMO, its not right to rip on one of your biggest partners.
I used to rip on GM a lot more, but I decided to tone it down. There are people on here who like GM and I just really dont want to deal with the constant arguements and pissing matches. I deal with that enough at work and in my personal life and Id prefer to avoid dealing with that on internet forums. I do sometimes get caught up on the moment and do rip on GM. Thats something Im trying to not do quite so often, but what can I say, Im not perfect. Never have been and I never will be.


Yes, this is a Toyota enthusiast's site. But it's not a "let's all rip GM" site. Is it? There is far less Toyota bashing at GMI than there is GM bashing here. Also, at GM-Trucks there is very little Toyota bashing. An occasional joke or jab at Toyota maybe, but very very few and far between. GM truck enthusiasts enjoy discussing their GM trucks, both good and bad. They don't feel the need to rip Toyota to make themselves feel better about their GM trucks.
Whatever. Ive seen enough posts on GMI to know otherwise.

If it makes you feel better by hating GM and bashing them, then go right ahead. But be careful about throwing stones in glass houses.
Dont worry, Im a big boy, I can handle it.

Oh, and please show me where I "take every opportunity to rip Toyota" on this site?
http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/showthread.php?t=251902
Power for the PreRunner comes from none other than GM's LS2 small-block. TForce crew member Matt Riggle told Levine that the team chose the 375-hp, 400 lb-ft powerplant because of its reliability..........

:clap:
The fact they used an LS engine is not the most amazing part, it's the REASON they chose it....RELIABILITY. Isn't that supposed to be what Toyota's are all about? It also debunks all of the Toyota Fan claims that the GM Cam-In-Block V8's are "ancient".

Hope your not too butthurt. I expected the sarcasm though, fits the typical responses to anything not Pro-Toyota. :naughty:
Like I said, you have every right to your own opinion, but dont try to pretend like you arent a Toyota hater. Like I said, its doesnt really bother me and if nothing else its entertaining. :D

Like I said, I may not agree with your views and opinions, but I do always try to be respectful of them. I hope that you will do the same.

...Even Toyota, which you have to admit, has by far the most hybrid experience (yes, in sales, not technology)...

Vmax2007: Regarding your comment above, you made a claim that Toyota does not have the most experience in hybrid technology, yet when asked to explain, you refuse to do so. If that is NOT a rip on Toyota, I don't know what is.

I do not hate GM. I am just wary of all the rhetoric that is coming out of GM recently, especially in light of their history as a company run by accountants, a company that makes a lot of promises, but frequently is not able to deliver. I am always wary of anything that smells and sounds like bullshit and hype, regardless of what the origin is, and that includes members of TN who seem to me to be bullshitting and making baseless comments.

Your comments, like a number of other members' comments, are quite entertaining -- very predictable at times, but still quite entertaining.

You may try to engage me in a discussion all you want. You may even try to attack me, or call me a coward, but I shall not respond. I refuse to be provoked into a pissing match.

Antiquated engine technology. They are still holding onto pushrod engine technology. Its 2008, not 1978; get with the times.

:lol: You do realize that OHC engines have been around for about 100 years, right? Does that make them "antiquated" too? Pushrod technology does have it's advantages, especially in V8 engines. With that said, I tend to agree that GM should offer more DOHC V8 engines, which it looks like they will be doing.

Not liking the technology a brand uses certainly justifies not wanting to buy one. But how does that justify HATING the company? IMO, the ONLY thing that justifies hating a brand is a bad personal experience with owning one or several of them. That would be like HATING Apple because you don't like the technology used in a Mac. The examples here are limitless.

So, I'll ask you again, why do "HATE" GM? Just because you prefer Toyota? Yeah, that's real mature.

Dont worry, Im a big boy, I can handle it.

I doubt that. :D


http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/showthread.php?t=251902


Like I said, you have every right to your own opinion, but dont try to pretend like you arent a Toyota hater. Like I said, its doesnt really bother me and if nothing else its entertaining. :D

So, posting something positive about GM is ripping on Toyota? I also did it to prove that GM's LS engines are 2nd to none in reliability, which is a FACT.

I have no reason to hate Toyota, but I do hate alot of the fanboys who love to bury their heads in the sand and dish out constant BS about GM. Before joining internet forums about 16 months ago I had no issues with Toyota whatsoever. But ever since, after reading all the garbage the fanboys love to post about GM and other domestics, it has given me an entirely different perspective of Toyota in general. Every brand has their fanboys, but Toyota's tend to be the most biased and hateful of them all.

I like and support GM for one reason and one reason only. Because they have served me nearly flawlessly for 26 years of owning/driving them. Maybe I am just lucky? Oh yeah, and ALL of them have had the "ancient" pushrod engines. :D

Like I said, I may not agree with your views and opinions, but I do always try to be respectful of them. I hope that you will do the same.

:bullshitz :bullshit2

would like to clarify that I am NOT saying GM's systems are any better or any worse than Toyota's. What I was debunking in the past several posts was the claim that is is "common sense" to assume that 40 MPC is "unlikely" when NOBODY on this forum has enough info or facts to make that statement.
This is why you fail and most people don't take you seriously. I gave you actual scientific data that explains to a reasonable degree why the volt would have a hard time meeting a 40 mile target. You responded with zero data of your own, nothing. Yet you want us to believe your opinion is just as valid. If my numbers are wrong, counter them. If I am making incorrect assumptions (I have to fill in the missing parts of the equation to make a decent projection) then point them out. And if you can't do that, politely keep quiet until you can.

I openly stated I don't have enough information, no one outside of the GM engineers do. If fact they may not even know exactly because the Volt is not in production yet. I could be completely wrong, and I don't mind being wrong. I am interested in the technology, and I want facts.

I also think it is wrong to assume that me and others are blatantly Toyota biased. We're not. But this IS a Toyota forum, so yes we're biased. Me personally, I'm biased towards Toyota because I have tremendous respect for their products, and through personal experience have been highly rewarded owning them.

As far as GM goes, I personally hope the Volt succeeds beyond all expectations and they sell them as fast as they can make them. We ALL need this to happen to get the industry out of the terrible rut they are in. Instead of dangling the Hydrogen carrot in front of us, or some other possible technology that might happen, the entire auto industry needs to embrace the hybrid and run with it. It's not a perfect solution by any means. But it gives us ALL the option to power our cars from more than one energy source. You can't say that about conventional auto tech. With a plugin hybrid, your charging options are quite diverse. And I hope this stimulates an entire industry of solar, wind, and other technology both in the commercial and industrial area, and also the end user.

How many people would love to be able to go home and charge up their hybrid using their own solar panel array or wind powered generator? If millions of people started doing this, the costs would invariably come down to the point where it would cost you NOT to have it. But the entire auto ecosystem has to change for that to happen. And conspiracy theories aside, do not under estimate the oil lobbies ability to put a clamp on mass adoption of such technology. For them it is the poison pill, freedom from a gas station.

If the Volt is a wild success, along with similar cars from other makers, it will completely change the cars in our driveways and we all desperately need this to happen. I also think it is important for an American manufacturer to have mass success with the hybrid. It will legitimize the technology on a total scale that just can't happen as quickly otherwise. I'm sure others would disagree with me on this point, but I honestly believe this.

edit- It is also very, very important IMO that people realize the most important aspect of a hybrid. The storage technology will continue to improve. Even you change little else on the car, put in better batteries or some other high tech storage cell, and you instantly have a better car.

This is why you fail and most people don't take you seriously. I gave you actual scientific data that explains to a reasonable degree why the volt would have a hard time meeting a 40 mile target. You responded with zero data of your own, nothing. Yet you want us to believe your opinion is just as valid. If my numbers are wrong, counter them. If I am making incorrect assumptions (I have to fill in the missing parts of the equation to make a decent projection) then point them out. And if you can't do that, politely keep quiet until you can.

I openly stated I don't have enough information, no one outside of the GM engineers do. If fact they may not even know exactly because the Volt is not in production yet. I could be completely wrong, and I don't mind being wrong. I am interested in the technology, and I want facts.


You specifically said it's "common sense" that Li-Ion batteries are not capable of going 40 miles per charge. You then admit you do not have enough data or info to back that up. So how exactly is it "common sense" if you admittedly are guessing? Think about it Einstein.

I also think it is wrong to assume that I am blatantly GM biased. I'm not. Me personally, I'm biased towards GM because I have tremendous respect for their products, and through personal experience have been highly rewarded owning them.

As far as GM goes, I personally hope the Volt succeeds beyond all expectations and they sell them as fast as they can make them. We ALL need this to happen to get the industry out of the terrible rut they are in. Instead of dangling the Hydrogen carrot in front of us, or some other possible technology that might happen, the entire auto industry needs to embrace the hybrid and run with it. It's not a perfect solution by any means. But it gives us ALL the option to power our cars from more than one energy source. You can't say that about conventional auto tech. With a plugin hybrid, your charging options are quite diverse. And I hope this stimulates an entire industry of solar, wind, and other technology both in the commercial and industrial area, and also the end user.

How many people would love to be able to go home and charge up their hybrid using their own solar panel array or wind powered generator? If millions of people started doing this, the costs would invariably come down to the point where it would cost you NOT to have it. But the entire auto ecosystem has to change for that to happen. And conspiracy theories aside, do not under estimate the oil lobbies ability to put a clamp on mass adoption of such technology. For them it is the poison pill, freedom from a gas station.

If the Volt is a wild success, along with similar cars from other makers, it will completely change the cars in our driveways and we all desperately need this to happen. I also think it is important for an American manufacturer to have mass success with the hybrid. It will legitimize the technology on a total scale that just can't happen as quickly otherwise. I'm sure others would disagree with me on this point, but I honestly believe this.

edit- It is also very, very important IMO that people realize the most important aspect of a hybrid. The storage technology will continue to improve. Even you change little else on the car, put in better batteries or some other high tech storage cell, and you instantly have a better car.

Wow!!! Well said!!! I am impressed :clap: (no sarcasm intended either).

The only thing I would have changed if I were the one posting this is highlighted in red above.

You may try to engage me in a discussion all you want. You may even try to attack me, or call me a coward, but I shall not respond. I refuse to be provoked into a pissing match.

And that is the only way to make Trolls or trollish behavior go away.

Fan

And that is the only way to make Trolls or trollish behavior go away.

Fan

Fan,

You are such a hypocrite it's not even funny. You ADMIT to bashing GM on a regular basis with the sole intent to "stir the pot" and agitate the GM fans on the board. Then you accuse them of being Trolls or "Trollish behavior". Just because someone has different opinions than yours does NOT make them a Troll, even when they aren't a Toyota fanboy on a Toyota site. Just because you are a Toyota fan and this is a Toyota forum does NOT automatically make you immune to being a Troll.

Anti-Fan