New 6 Speed Manuals in the Fall?

http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/news/08/0611.html

"Transmissions
While advancing multi-stage automatic transmissions and continuously variable transmissions, TMC will introduce a highly efficient compact six-speed manual transmission in the fall of 2008."

This link has all kinds of information, but this one about the transmissions caught my eye. Can anyone confirm that the US models will get the new 6 speed manual?

Seems interesting, though I'm curious what line is this new 6 spd for? Just because there is one doesn't mean it'll fit a car you want.

There are a few current possible uses for that 6 spd.

GR series V6, longitudinally mounted (RWD, ie Lexus IS)
GR series V6, transversely mounted (FWD, ie Camry V6)
AR series I4, transverse (Venza, maybe Matrix/Corolla XRS)
ZR series I4, transvere (Corolla, Matrix, possible valvematic engine for new XRS)
BOXER engines, new Subaru collab coupe
Tundra V8 engines.

I highly doubt it would be for a SUV though. And I would doubt its for one of the V8 sedans.

Related to that link regarding Toyota's action plan for the future, Toyota slipped in confirmation that a "Dual VVT-iE" system is coming in the future.

Could this be the rumoured fully-electric VVT system? Sure sounds like it.

Elsewhere, I have heard that it is for the smaller cars. In Australia, they already have the 6 speed on their Corolla.

http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/news/08/0611.html

"Transmissions
While advancing multi-stage automatic transmissions and continuously variable transmissions, TMC will introduce a highly efficient compact six-speed manual transmission in the fall of 2008."

This link has all kinds of information, but this one about the transmissions caught my eye. Can anyone confirm that the US models will get the new 6 speed manual?

Seems interesting, though I'm curious what line is this new 6 spd for? Just because there is one doesn't mean it'll fit a car you want.

There are a few current possible uses for that 6 spd.

GR series V6, longitudinally mounted (RWD, ie Lexus IS)
GR series V6, transversely mounted (FWD, ie Camry V6)
AR series I4, transverse (Venza, maybe Matrix/Corolla XRS)
ZR series I4, transvere (Corolla, Matrix, possible valvematic engine for new XRS)
BOXER engines, new Subaru collab coupe
Tundra V8 engines.

I highly doubt it would be for a SUV though. And I would doubt its for one of the V8 sedans.

Elsewhere, I have heard that it is for the smaller cars. In Australia, they already have the 6 speed on their Corolla.

According to other news that I have read, I am led to believe that the new, compact 6-speed transmission is for use in small, FWD cars.

Related to that link regarding Toyota's action plan for the future, Toyota slipped in confirmation that a "Dual VVT-iE" system is coming in the future.

Could this be the rumoured fully-electric VVT system? Sure sounds like it.

Where did you see that? Would the Dual VVT-iE system be Valvematic without variable valve lift and duration? Do you know if Valvematic is hydraulically or electrically controlled?

My apologies for all the questions. I am curious and interested in this new technology, but have not been able to find much information about it.

According to other news that I have read, I am led to believe that the new, compact 6-speed transmission is for use in small, FWD cars.

For years now some Toyota owners have complained about the lack of manual transmission offerings. I think that this 6 speed will go into a variety of cars in order to satisfy the demands of some Toyota owners wanting a manual option.

Where did you see that? Would the Dual VVT-iE system be Valvematic without variable valve lift and duration? Do you know if Valvematic is hydraulically or electrically controlled?

My apologies for all the questions. I am curious and interested in this new technology, but have not been able to find much information about it.

If you go on the www.toyota.co.jp/en (http://www.toyota.co.jp/en) website, and click on the environmental forum button, there is a PDF presentation from Masatami Takimoto, Executive Vice President of TMC:

http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/vision/message/conference/080611_vice_president01.pdf

On page 6 of this presentation, you can see that Toyota has slipped in confirmation of a "Dual VVT-iE" system, as part of Toyota's evolution of their gasoline engine. You can also see the newly-announced stop-start system, along with Valvematic on that page as well. Also notice that Dual VVT-iE is mentioned right after Dual VVT-i, hinting that it's an evolution and replacement of Dual VVT-i.

Valvematic is electronically controlled by an electric motor which is tied to the car's ECU. Valvematic works in addition to, and together with Dual VVT-i. Dual VVT-i controls the valve timing on the intake and exhaust valves, as well controlling cam phasing. Valvematic pretty much allows for infinitely variable valve lift and duration and also removes the need for a throttle valve.

Dual VVT-iE has been rumoured amongst Toyota insiders for a while now. The origin of this rumour goes back to Toyota's ambition of raising the quality/reliability bar. Many Toyota insiders have long said that Toyota for years now has been working on ways to raise the bar in terms of quality/reliability compared to the competition. One of the ways Toyota has been doing that is replacing many mechanical parts in an automobile with dramatically more reliable (and efficient) electric parts. For example, hydraulic power steering being replaced by electric power steering. Another example is the increased use of electric A/C units. The newly announced stop-start system is an electronic system that will shut off the engine when its not needed, reducing wear and tear.

It's also been long said by insiders that Toyota has been frustrated by the reliability of hydraulic valve timing systems. Toyota is said to have increased quality and reliability standards in many areas of a vehicle, and the rumour is that Dual VVT-i does not meet Toyota's new standards. To achieve the reliability and quality standards Toyota is aiming for, they've been experimenting with electric VVT systems.

We now have VVT-iE in production on the GS460, LS460, LS600h, and IS-F. So far VVT-iE is only on the intake side, but even so it provides an increase in reliability as well as efficiency, as intake valve timing on those vehicles is electronically controlled, rather than hydraulically controlled.

Dual VVT-iE would mean both intake and exhaust valve timing are electronically controlled and electronically driven. Combined with Valvematic, this would mean a fully electric valve timing and lift system with nothing being hydraulically controlled. This would provide tremendous reliability gains as well as huge efficiency/performance increases. Toyota would be the first to market with such a system.

Nissan's recently developed VVEL system is an electronically controlled valve lift and duration system like Valvematic. Honda's upcoming A-VTEC system will also be an electronically controlled valve lift and duration system. The difference is that Honda and Nissan still rely on hydraulic control (oil pressure) for operating intake/exhaust valve timing.

With Dual VVT-iE and Valvematic, Toyota will now have the most advanced and efficient valve timing and lift system on the market.

could you imagine a Camry SE V6 with a 6spd manual? thing would be a beast. The tC could use a 6spd too IMO.

For years now some Toyota owners have complained about the lack of manual transmission offerings. I think that this 6 speed will go into a variety of cars in order to satisfy the demands of some Toyota owners wanting a manual option.



If you go on the www.toyota.co.jp/en (http://www.toyota.co.jp/en) website, and click on the environmental forum button, there is a PDF presentation from Masatami Takimoto, Executive Vice President of TMC:

http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/vision/message/conference/080611_vice_president01.pdf

On page 6 of this presentation, you can see that Toyota has slipped in confirmation of a "Dual VVT-iE" system, as part of Toyota's evolution of their gasoline engine. You can also see the newly-announced stop-start system, along with Valvematic on that page as well. Also notice that Dual VVT-iE is mentioned right after Dual VVT-i, hinting that it's an evolution and replacement of Dual VVT-i.

Valvematic is electronically controlled by an electric motor which is tied to the car's ECU. Valvematic works in addition to, and together with Dual VVT-i. Dual VVT-i controls the valve timing on the intake and exhaust valves, as well controlling cam phasing. Valvematic pretty much allows for infinitely variable valve lift and duration and also removes the need for a throttle valve.

Dual VVT-iE has been rumoured amongst Toyota insiders for a while now. The origin of this rumour goes back to Toyota's ambition of raising the quality/reliability bar. Many Toyota insiders have long said that Toyota for years now has been working on ways to raise the bar in terms of quality/reliability compared to the competition. One of the ways Toyota has been doing that is replacing many mechanical parts in an automobile with dramatically more reliable (and efficient) electric parts. For example, hydraulic power steering being replaced by electric power steering. Another example is the increased use of electric A/C units. The newly announced stop-start system is an electronic system that will shut off the engine when its not needed, reducing wear and tear.

It's also been long said by insiders that Toyota has been frustrated by the reliability of hydraulic valve timing systems. Toyota is said to have increased quality and reliability standards in many areas of a vehicle, and the rumour is that Dual VVT-i does not meet Toyota's new standards. To achieve the reliability and quality standards Toyota is aiming for, they've been experimenting with electric VVT systems.

We now have VVT-iE in production on the GS460, LS460, LS600h, and IS-F. So far VVT-iE is only on the intake side, but even so it provides an increase in reliability as well as efficiency, as intake valve timing on those vehicles is electronically controlled, rather than hydraulically controlled.

Dual VVT-iE would mean both intake and exhaust valve timing are electronically controlled and electronically driven. Combined with Valvematic, this would mean a fully electric valve timing and lift system with nothing being hydraulically controlled. This would provide tremendous reliability gains as well as huge efficiency/performance increases. Toyota would be the first to market with such a system.

Nissan's recently developed VVEL system is an electronically controlled valve lift and duration system like Valvematic. Honda's upcoming A-VTEC system will also be an electronically controlled valve lift and duration system. The difference is that Honda and Nissan still rely on hydraulic control (oil pressure) for operating intake/exhaust valve timing.

With Dual VVT-iE and Valvematic, Toyota will now have the most advanced and efficient valve timing and lift system on the market.

Thanks! You have told me a lot of information that I was not fully aware of.

If anything desperately needs a 6 speed manual, it is either the IS350 or IS-F since they both are the only "performance cars" in Toyota lineup today and both only work with automatics and could use a more steep final drive and overall shorter gearing a manual can only offer.

It could be possible Toyota will introduce the IS350 and IS-F coupes with a 6 speed manual and develop an optional dual-clutch 7 speed electronic manual to replace the automatics.

If the "production" version pictures are to be believed, the new 6 speed should go into the iQ later this year.

Toyota already has a 6 speed manual in Auris, Avensis and so on, but not in the Yaris, and if it fits into the iQ, I'm sure Aygo and Yaris should follow.

something even better than dual vvt-i omg
=D
im so giddy
and vasia thanks for the Essay it was a good read.

VVT-iE for economodels
and Valvematic for sports models maybe?

is that what i am infering
if it is
that would be something
no longer will a sports version of a car be just body trim lol

If anything desperately needs a 6 speed manual, it is either the IS350 or IS-F since they both are the only "performance cars" in Toyota lineup today and both only work with automatics and could use a more steep final drive and overall shorter gearing a manual can only offer.

It could be possible Toyota will introduce the IS350 and IS-F coupes with a 6 speed manual and develop an optional dual-clutch 7 speed electronic manual to replace the automatics.

Is it not possible to offer a steep final drive ratio and shorter gearing with an automatic transmission? And isn't the final drive ratio a function of the final drive differential and not the transmission? And why would it not be possible to offer shorter gearing in an automatic transmission?

If anything desperately needs a 6 speed manual, it is either the IS350 or IS-F since they both are the only "performance cars" in Toyota lineup today and both only work with automatics and could use a more steep final drive and overall shorter gearing a manual can only offer.

It could be possible Toyota will introduce the IS350 and IS-F coupes with a 6 speed manual and develop an optional dual-clutch 7 speed electronic manual to replace the automatics.

A manual would make sense for the IS350, but what you've said makes no sense for the IS-F.

Shorter gearing for the IS-F? The 8 speed in the F already provides very short gearing, not to mention blazing fast shift speeds in manual mode. The 8 speed in manual mode shifts faster than one could ever possibly shift using a conventional manual transmission.

The LF-A is rumoured to be using a 7 speed sequential manual, which would be similar to what F1 cars currently use. The LF-A's transmission is also rear-mounted, with some of the suspension points connecting directly to the tranny, so don't expect to see it in widespread use in other Lexus models. It may possibly be adaptable for front mounting, but there is no indication of that at this point.

Is it not possible to offer a steep final drive ratio and shorter gearing with an automatic transmission? And isn't the final drive ratio a function of the final drive differential and not the transmission? And why would it not be possible to offer shorter gearing in an automatic transmission?

It is because having a steep final drive will make the car rev faster and stay in high revs more and generally to be safe, automatics do not handle high revs for extended period of time very well due to the heat and stress generated operating at higher revs. That is why you will not see automatics having a steep final drive combined with short gearing. It will generally be one or the other.

Lexus needs to get rid of that 8 speed automatic on the IS-F and atleast create a 7 speed dual-clutch electronic manual instead that they have been using in the LF-A as the auto may be decent in a straight line, but it is horrendous around a race track where rapid upshifts and downshifts are constantly required approaching and exiting corners. Constant banging into the rev limiter while taking to redline in every gear, refusing to downshift on command (a rude beeping sound instead) and confused gear hunting all the time for the right gear as there are way too many gears covering very small speed ranges with rev limit set at 6800 rpm (8 gears for only 6800 rpm rev range) is what the common complaint were of Tiff from Fifth gear to Best Motoring etc.

Let me put it this way, there is absolutely no advantage aside from the saving cost of having an 8 speed automatic over a Getrag 7 speed dual-clutch with the Getrag dual-clutch manuals found in the M3s, Skyline GT-R etc. are becoming smoother and faster than ever before (unlike the old single-clutch crude SMG system), but there are substantial advantages of having dual-clutch electronic manual over automatics.

Having a 6 speed manual standard and an optional 7 speed dual-clutch electronic manual will go a long way to make these cars more competitive with the rivals while keeping people in both camps happy. It is a win-win situation for everyone (except cost of R & D for Lexus/Toyota).

vasia, thanks for the explanation! Easy to read and understand!

I have a question. Can valvematic and Dual VVT-iE be combined or are they mutally exclusive? Can there be stepless electronically controlled variable valve timing?

vasia, thanks for the explanation! Easy to read and understand!

I have a question. Can valvematic and Dual VVT-iE be combined or are they mutally exclusive? Can there be stepless electronically controlled variable valve timing?

As I mentioned earlier, Valvematic is supposed to work together with, and in addition to Dual VVT-iE. The rumour from Japanese insiders has been that Toyota's ultimate goal is to have a stepless, infinitely variable and completely electronic variable valve timing and lift system. Just a few years ago this was thought to be nothing more than a dream, or something that would only be possible in the far-off future.

vasia, thanks for the explanation! Easy to read and understand!

I have a question. Can valvematic and Dual VVT-iE be combined or are they mutally exclusive? Can there be stepless electronically controlled variable valve timing?

Correct me if I am wrong, but I understand that VVT-iE is electrically-driven, continuous and stepless variable valve timing. My understanding is that VVT-i is continuous and stepless variable valve timing on the intake valves, driven hydraulically, and the difference with VVT-iE is that it replaces the hydraulic drive with an electric drive motor.

From what I have read about Valvematic, I gather that it is Dual VVT-i (so hydraulically-driven?) combined with electrically-driven variable valve lift on the intake valves. That does not seem logical to me. Why combine hydraulic and electric drive of the intake valves? Again, correct me if I am wrong. Perhaps my interpretation is incorrect, as vasia does mention that Valvematic is electronically (computer) controlled and electrically-driven, making it the first of its kind and very reliable.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I understand that VVT-iE is electrically-driven, continuous and stepless variable valve timing. My understanding is that VVT-i is continuous and stepless variable valve timing on the intake valves, driven hydraulically, and the difference with VVT-iE is that it replaces the hydraulic drive with an electric drive motor.

From what I have read about Valvematic, I gather that it is Dual VVT-i (so hydraulically-driven?) combined with electrically-driven variable valve lift on the intake valves. That does not seem logical to me. Why combine hydraulic and electric drive of the intake valves? Again, correct me if I am wrong. Perhaps my interpretation is incorrect, as vasia does mention that Valvematic is electronically (computer) controlled and electrically-driven, making it the first of its kind and very reliable.

Let me clarify:

Valvematic ONLY controls valve lift and duration. It is fully electronic.

Dual VVT-i is hydraulically driven and electronically (ECU) controlled. All valve timing is ultimately electronically controlled by the ECU, but most valve timing systems remain hydraulically driven. Dual VVT-iE will be fully electronically driven.

Valvematic is currently in production, but only on one engine so far (in combination with Dual VVT-i).

Dual VVT-iE is NOT yet in production. VVT-iE on the intake side only is in production on several Lexus models.

Dual VVT-iE, as hinted by Toyota, is going to be the evolution of Dual VVT-i.

The only reason Valvematic is being paired with Dual VVT-i at the moment is because Dual VVT-iE is not yet on the market and is not in production.

It remains to be seen what models will get which combinations of pairings, and whether both Lexus and Toyota brand vehicles will see both Valvematic and Dual VVT-iE paired together in the future.

ahh gotcha... sweeet. And let's put that into the next gen HSD =Þ

I understand.

Guys remember VVTL-i in the 2ZZ-GE engines? The system where its similar to Honda's Vtec and it steps to a second cam profile? That was basically VVT-i + Lift.

Valvematic, from my understanding, should be a evolution of the "Lift" part in the 2ZZ's VVTL-i, where its electronically controlled with infinite lift profiles, optimizing the right amount of lift for each RPM range.
Dual VVT-i, and subsequently Dual VVT-iE is the timing part.
Combine Valvematic and VVT-iE, and we have the next generation of VVTL-i.

I think, to put it simply in my understanding and in my words, Toyota is further developing what was thought to be a performance engine system and putting it into your everyday drivers. With the penetration of D4 direct injection system throughout the engine ranges, I think we are in for either some pretty insane HP figures or some really good mileage in our everyday drivers in the next few years.

The only other company that I think has this capability right now is BMW with their Valvetronic, and I believe they have direct injection too.
Honda only has the A-Vtec, which is Valvematic + Dual VVT, I believe they don't have DI yet
Nissan has VTEL? and direct injection, not sure if they have the variable lift though.

Just an example, I think a 300hp 25mpg or a 250hp 35mpg 3.0V6 engine shouldn't be too far off if this all falls into place considering just Dual VVTi and D4 in a 3.5 V6 right now gives us 300hp and 20mpg. Lift, if they do it the same way as the 2ZZ, gives a LOT of high end hp....

Thanks for reminding me, as I forgot to mention D4-S.

Combining D4-S with Dual VVT-iE and Valvematic will result in some truly spectacular fuel economy as well as performance figures.

I guess Valvematic + Dual VVT-iE can be seen as an evolution of VVTL-i. Valvematic is an evolution of that lift system, and Dual VVT-iE will be a major evolution of the VVT-i valve timing system.

You are correct, the only company that may possibly match Toyota here is BMW. Honda has very limited experience with DI, same with Nissan. While Nissan has VVEL and Honda has the upcoming A-VTEC, valve timing and cam phasing will still be hydraulically driven.

I have not heard any rumours regarding a fully electronically driven valve timing and lift system coming from Nissan or Honda.

Let me clarify:

Valvematic ONLY controls valve lift and duration. It is fully electronic.

Dual VVT-i is hydraulically driven and electronically (ECU) controlled. All valve timing is ultimately electronically controlled by the ECU, but most valve timing systems remain hydraulically driven. Dual VVT-iE will be fully electronically driven.

Valvematic is currently in production, but only on one engine so far (in combination with Dual VVT-i).

Dual VVT-iE is NOT yet in production. VVT-iE on the intake side only is in production on several Lexus models.

Dual VVT-iE, as hinted by Toyota, is going to be the evolution of Dual VVT-i.

The only reason Valvematic is being paired with Dual VVT-i at the moment is because Dual VVT-iE is not yet on the market and is not in production.

It remains to be seen what models will get which combinations of pairings, and whether both Lexus and Toyota brand vehicles will see both Valvematic and Dual VVT-iE paired together in the future.

Thanks for the clarification. I guess I got confused from the Toyota press release from last year that first introduced Valvematic.
TOYOTA MOTOR CORPORATION (TMC) announced today that it has developed Valvematic*, a variable valve lift mechanism created through combining VVT-i (Variable Valve Timing-intelligent), which continuously controls intake valve opening/closing timing, with a new mechanism that continuously controls the intake valve lift volume...The accompanying diagram shows Dual VVT-i and the valve lift mechanism.
http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/news/07/image/0612.gif
Source: http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/news/07/0612.html

EA series 6 speed transmissions at MR2 Board (http://www.mr2.com/forums/mk-2-mr2-sw20/Toyota-MR2-20347-some-info-toyota-s-new-6-speed-ea-series-transmissions.html)

I've discussed the EA series 6 speed manuals on the MR2 Board. These are transverse, highly compact 3 shaft transmissions and are made to hold very high amounts of torque from diesel engines.

The EA transmissions have been in use overseas on Corolla diesel models for a little over a year now.

These transmissions are the successor to the highly stout E series transmission that was used in the Celica All-Trac, MR2 Turbo, and Camry V6s (both 3VZ and 1MZ).

I would tend to agree (absolutely no bias here) that the "E" series is one of Toyotas best offerings in a transmission.

So when Toyota said the new 2.7ltr Venza 4-banger will get great mileage the might be hinting at Valvematic or VVT-iE???

Can't wait to see the results. I guess with emissions and higher CAFE standards its a given in such technology must be implemented at least for conventional gas engines until we find an alternative fuel source(s).;):thumbup:

Thanks for the clarification. I guess I got confused from the Toyota press release from last year that first introduced Valvematic.
The accompanying diagram shows Dual VVT-i and the valve lift mechanism.

Source: http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/news/07/0612.html

Initially it can seem confusing, but the Toyota press release is common sense really. Although *in theory* Valvematic exists separately from Dual VVT-i, the two systems are intrinsically linked and it is common sense that both must be paired together. Valvematic would never be implemented without Dual VVT-i, or even the older VVT-i.

Just an example, I think a 300hp 25mpg or a 250hp 35mpg 3.0V6 engine shouldn't be too far off if this all falls into place considering just Dual VVTi and D4 in a 3.5 V6 right now gives us 300hp and 20mpg. Lift, if they do it the same way as the 2ZZ, gives a LOT of high end hp....

Not to mention a lighter engine = less weight over the front = better balance and even better fuel economy.

so we will soon have VVTiL-iE heh heh

here is a video showing the current dual vvt-i
http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=zpERYiHR0NU&NR=1

no videos or 3d demonstrations of valvematic yet
but ill hunt some down

so we will soon have VVTiL-iE heh heh

here is a video showing the current dual vvt-i
http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=zpERYiHR0NU&NR=1

no videos or 3d demonstrations of valvematic yet
but ill hunt some down

I think that "VVTL-iE" would be Valvematic coupled with Dual VVT-iE (instead of Valvematic coupled with Dual VVT-i, as it is now). Valvematic is the electrically-driven, continuous and stepless variable valve lift mechanism. VVTL-i only offered hydraulically-driven, non-continuous valve lift, changing valve lift only at a certain engine rpm; Valvematic will change valve lift continuously, at any and all engine rpms. VVTL-i still required a throttle valve; Valvematic, because of the continuously-changing valve lift, will NOT require a throttle valve.

EA series 6 speed transmissions at MR2 Board (http://www.mr2.com/forums/mk-2-mr2-sw20/Toyota-MR2-20347-some-info-toyota-s-new-6-speed-ea-series-transmissions.html)

I've discussed the EA series 6 speed manuals on the MR2 Board. These are transverse, highly compact 3 shaft transmissions and are made to hold very high amounts of torque from diesel engines.

The EA transmissions have been in use overseas on Corolla diesel models for a little over a year now.

These transmissions are the successor to the highly stout E series transmission that was used in the Celica All-Trac, MR2 Turbo, and Camry V6s (both 3VZ and 1MZ).
I was wondering if it could be possible to create an automated sequential- manual transmission from the EA series 6-speed manual transmission? Just as the current crop of sequential manual transmissions are 2-shaft/2-clutch designs, would it be possible to make a 3-shaft/3-clutch transmission?

Wait, hold on, how does 3 shafts work? Do you even need 3 shafts? I think odd gears on one, and even gears on one was already the best you can do, why would you need to further duplicate that when they don't even overlap anymore?

Wait, hold on, how does 3 shafts work? Do you even need 3 shafts? I think odd gears on one, and even gears on one was already the best you can do, why would you need to further duplicate that when they don't even overlap anymore?
Let's take the 7-speed transmission (6 forward gears + reverse gear) as an example:
With the 2-shaft transmission, one shaft would have 4 gears (3 forward gears + reverse) and the other would have 3 gears (the other 3 forward gears).
With the 3-shaft transmission, one shaft would have 3 gears (2 forward gears + reverse), and the other 2 shafts would have 2 gears each.With fewer gears on each shaft, the 3-shaft transmission would be shorter, and therefore more compact. That is very important with transverse- (sideways-) mounted drivetrains, which is the case with most front-wheel drive cars. More compact transmissions would allow transmissions with more forward gears to be used in smaller, narrower cars (Yaris and iQ, for example).

More compact transmissions on larger cars (Corolla and Camry, for example), would allow the front wheels to turn further, thus making for smaller turning circles, making them easier to maneuver in city traffic.

It would be nice if this transmission would replace the 6-speed manual that the Tacoma and Tundra currently get.
There have been quite a few people in the Tacoma section of this site and on other Toyota forums who have had issues with that transmission. It has developed a reputation for grenading with less than 100,000 miles on it. Thats unacceptable for anything bearing the Toyota name...
In any event, more gears is a good thing. The more gears you have the less gap there is between each gear, which allows the engine to not work quite so hard, which improves performance and fuel economy and reduce stress and wear on the entire drivetrain.
I personally dont see where there is such a big demand for manual transmissions (considering that the vast majority of cars are optioned out with automatics nowdays), but aparently Toyota's market research shows otherwise...

It would be nice if this transmission would replace the 6-speed manual that the Tacoma and Tundra currently get.
There have been quite a few people in the Tacoma section of this site and on other Toyota forums who have had issues with that transmission. It has developed a reputation for grenading with less than 100,000 miles on it. Thats unacceptable for anything bearing the Toyota name...
In any event, more gears is a good thing. The more gears you have the less gap there is between each gear, which allows the engine to not work quite so hard, which improves performance and fuel economy and reduce stress and wear on the entire drivetrain.
I personally dont see where there is such a big demand for manual transmissions (considering that the vast majority of cars are optioned out with automatics nowdays), but aparently Toyota's market research shows otherwise...

I believe that automatic transmissions are only really popular with lazy North Americans. Elsewhere, manual transmissions are still more popular, especially in smaller vehicles.

I think that "VVTL-iE" would be Valvematic coupled with Dual VVT-iE (instead of Valvematic coupled with Dual VVT-i, as it is now). Valvematic is the electrically-driven, continuous and stepless variable valve lift mechanism. VVTL-i only offered hydraulically-driven, non-continuous valve lift, changing valve lift only at a certain engine rpm; Valvematic will change valve lift continuously, at any and all engine rpms. VVTL-i still required a throttle valve; Valvematic, because of the continuously-changing valve lift, will NOT require a throttle valve.


correct you are
a mechanic over at newcelica.org recently got to work on or examin the new valvematic engine
there is no throtle valvematic esentially controls it all
the whole technology as a whole is shaping up to be sweet

It would be nice if this transmission would replace the 6-speed manual that the Tacoma and Tundra currently get.
There have been quite a few people in the Tacoma section of this site and on other Toyota forums who have had issues with that transmission. It has developed a reputation for grenading with less than 100,000 miles on it. Thats unacceptable for anything bearing the Toyota name...
In any event, more gears is a good thing. The more gears you have the less gap there is between each gear, which allows the engine to not work quite so hard, which improves performance and fuel economy and reduce stress and wear on the entire drivetrain.
I personally dont see where there is such a big demand for manual transmissions (considering that the vast majority of cars are optioned out with automatics nowdays), but aparently Toyota's market research shows otherwise...

I refuse to buy toyota because they don't build cars to suit my interests. Compact, great handling, RWD/AWD, decent power and a manual transmission. Even in limited numbers, offering a manual to those who want it would be a good thing. While you don't want to go overboard, building too many cars with niche interest levels, it is always good to provide consumers with some choices.

^^Also if Toyota wants to lower its median age it wouldn't hurt either. Yes I know Scion is for that but Toyota should have some stuff in the mix. Also its an image thing. Sure Toyota is selling great but don't rest on your laurels.

^^Also if Toyota wants to lower its median age it wouldn't hurt either. Yes I know Scion is for that but Toyota should have some stuff in the mix. Also its an image thing. Sure Toyota is selling great but don't rest on your laurels.

Yes, Toyota needs something to attract younger buyers, but Scion is necessary, I think, at least for another few years. Too many people think of Toyota as "that old people's brand", without even thinking about it, and without even looking at what Toyota has to offer. (My father says that exact same thing, and he is a senior citizen... and yet, he went out and traded in his Camry for another Camry.)

Even if Toyota had a whole fleet of models targeted at younger buyers right now, I don't think that many people would realize it, because they are just so accustomed to thinking "old people's brand". With Scion around, people will slowly start to think "Oh yeah, Toyota can make young-people's cars, after all". Over time, as more and more people realize that Toyota can make cars attractive to younger buyers, then Toyota can start to move more of their Scion-badged cars over to the Toyota brand, until one day when Scion will no longer be necessary.

It would be nice if this transmission would replace the 6-speed manual that the Tacoma and Tundra currently get.


:confused: You can't get a manual with a Tundra. The 4.0 V6 and the 4.7 V8 come with a 5 speed automatic while the 5.7 V8 comes with a 6 speed automatic.

You could get a manual with the previous generation Tundra. Only with the V6 in Regular Cab and Extended Cab models, and I believe those both had to be 2WD.

I believe that automatic transmissions are only really popular with lazy North Americans. Elsewhere, manual transmissions are still more popular, especially in smaller vehicles.

:lol: and manuals are for simple minded canadians..... :lol:

^ You realize Canada is part of North America right?

^ You realize Canada is part of North America right?

Uhhhh, yes......but you're not yet thinking at my level of complexity. (are you canadian?) :) I was just taking a stab at Sulu personally/jokingly because he was being rude with his statement towards "north americans" and their being lazy, which happened to include me..... I thought I'd poke fun directly at "him" being that he is canadian.

Uhhhh, yes......but you're not yet thinking at my level of complexity. (are you canadian?) :) I was just taking a stab at Sulu personally/jokingly because he was being rude with his statement towards "north americans" and their being lazy, which happened to include me..... I thought I'd poke fun directly at "him" being that he is canadian.

Hey, I said "lazy North Americans" purposely to include Canadians. If I wanted to aim only at Americans, I would have said "lazy fat-ass Americans". :lol::lol:

Uhhhh, yes......but you're not yet thinking at my level of complexity. (are you canadian?) :) I was just taking a stab at Sulu personally/jokingly because he was being rude with his statement towards "north americans" and their being lazy, which happened to include me..... I thought I'd poke fun directly at "him" being that he is canadian.

Or maybe you're "complex thinking" is showing all the activity of a flat lined EKG :D.

Or maybe you're "complex thinking" is showing all the activity of a flat lined EKG :D.

or maybe you need a grammar lesson? :D:lol:

Hey, I said "lazy North Americans" purposely to include Canadians. If I wanted to aim only at Americans, I would have said "lazy fat-ass Americans". :lol::lol:

now that's more like it....... :lol:

now that's more like it....... :lol:

Glad to be of assistance!! ;)

Yes, Toyota needs something to attract younger buyers, but Scion is necessary, I think, at least for another few years. Too many people think of Toyota as "that old people's brand", without even thinking about it, and without even looking at what Toyota has to offer. (My father says that exact same thing, and he is a senior citizen... and yet, he went out and traded in his Camry for another Camry.)

Even if Toyota had a whole fleet of models targeted at younger buyers right now, I don't think that many people would realize it, because they are just so accustomed to thinking "old people's brand". With Scion around, people will slowly start to think "Oh yeah, Toyota can make young-people's cars, after all". Over time, as more and more people realize that Toyota can make cars attractive to younger buyers, then Toyota can start to move more of their Scion-badged cars over to the Toyota brand, until one day when Scion will no longer be necessary.


Yep I totally agree. Scion is crucial. Is it fool proof, of course not but what brand is (Toyota-Just kid). Anyway its an introductory brand. It brings people into the brand that wouldn't have thought of Toyota. Like you said. The Matrix at least in the U.S. is the bridge product from Scion. Enhance why in the U.S. its more "radical"of its Corolla mate. That's why Scion is playing a thin line. With any niche brand, especially if it has products that were very popular and then they change it up. Also Toyota has to be careful that it doesn't turn Scion into Toyota as far as marketing and corporate mission. Yes they are the same company but obviously different demographics.
You're right on the money. That's why Toyota created Scion. Its to attract those buyers and when they get older they moved to Toyota and then possibly to Lexus. Obviously you don't get entry level buyers, you get people from Lexus or Toyota or whatever buying them too. I just wish them their success and that Toyota doesn't screw it up.

or maybe you need a grammar lesson? :D:lol:

Every bit as much as you need one in capitalization. Remember kids, capitalization is the difference between helping your uncle Jack off a horse and helping your uncle jack off a horse.

^ haha

For years now some Toyota owners have complained about the lack of manual transmission offerings.

With Dual VVT-iE and Valvematic, Toyota will now have the most advanced and efficient valve timing and lift system on the market.

Cut the post, but that was one of the most informative I´ve seen! :thumbup:

I believe that automatic transmissions are only really popular with lazy North Americans. Elsewhere, manual transmissions are still more popular, especially in smaller vehicles.

Yep, tiidas, corollas, mazda 3, yaris, most of those vehicles have manual trans over here.

Every bit as much as you need one in capitalization. Remember kids, capitalization is the difference between helping your uncle Jack off a horse and helping your uncle jack off a horse.

:lol::lol:

Hey guys I just picked up an article and it reminded me of the Lotus Eagle using the 2GR-FE out of the Camry. In many ways a MR setup is quite similar to a FF setup as things are mounted transversely. Now I doubt Lotus would go with a auto only, so any bets that this new 6spd manual tranny will have something to do with Lotus borrowing the 2GR? And we may possibly get a FWD version of it?

One thing I wish was different about my 5spd-M '09 Corolla XRS is I wish it had a 6spd, like my best friends RSX-S. In fact I have often thought of replacing it with a close ratio 6. Now it seems I should have just waited a year or two for the stock 6spd to come out.:eek: Will the new Corolla XRS utilize the 6spd-M???

One thing I wish was different about my 5spd-M '09 Corolla XRS is I wish it had a 6spd, like my best friends RSX-S. In fact I have often thought of replacing it with a close ratio 6. Now it seems I should have just waited a year or two for the stock 6spd to come out.:eek: Will the new Corolla XRS utilize the 6spd-M???

Frankly, we don't know yet. We have no clue what engine family this transmission is made for. Plus, the 2.4 2AZ engine in the XRS is going to get retired, I doubt there would be a tranny made for it by Toyota, its being replaced by the new AR series 4 cyl engines that's going in the Rav4 Camry and Venza.

Yes, Toyota needs something to attract younger buyers, but Scion is necessary, I think, at least for another few years. Too many people think of Toyota as "that old people's brand", without even thinking about it, and without even looking at what Toyota has to offer. (My father says that exact same thing, and he is a senior citizen... and yet, he went out and traded in his Camry for another Camry.)

Even if Toyota had a whole fleet of models targeted at younger buyers right now, I don't think that many people would realize it, because they are just so accustomed to thinking "old people's brand". With Scion around, people will slowly start to think "Oh yeah, Toyota can make young-people's cars, after all". Over time, as more and more people realize that Toyota can make cars attractive to younger buyers, then Toyota can start to move more of their Scion-badged cars over to the Toyota brand, until one day when Scion will no longer be necessary.

I'd have to agree with everything you just said there but the funny thing is. There are many old people who are also trading in and buying Scions. You have to take a second look everytime you drive by an xB and find an old couple driving around in it.

I'd have to agree with everything you just said there but the funny thing is. There are many old people who are also trading in and buying Scions. You have to take a second look everytime you drive by an xB and find an old couple driving around in it.

Same thing happened with the Honda Element, I understand. Although originally targeted toward the young, seniors like it also. I understand that seniors like the Element because it is easier to get in and out due to its higher seats.

For Scions, it is perhaps they are small, fuel efficient, cheap-to-own and cheap-to-operate cars.

Same thing happened with the Honda Element, I understand. Although originally targeted toward the young, seniors like it also. I understand that seniors like the Element because it is easier to get in and out due to its higher seats.

For Scions, it is perhaps they are small, fuel efficient, cheap-to-own and cheap-to-operate cars.


Scions offer great value, regardless if you think they are ugly or not. So that's one big reason the older folk are getting them. Its a generation thing. Like the Element, the ECHO sedan in the U.S. had the same fate. Toyota was caught off guard that 40 plus people bought the car, or majority of people. Of course its looks didn't win over many Americans but now its changing their minds.

Regardless of how many old people you see driving Scion's they still have a substantial younger buyers.

Frankly, we don't know yet. We have no clue what engine family this transmission is made for. Plus, the 2.4 2AZ engine in the XRS is going to get retired, I doubt there would be a tranny made for it by Toyota, its being replaced by the new AR series 4 cyl engines that's going in the Rav4 Camry and Venza.

Is that speculation or do you know for sure that the new XRS will get this engine? I assume you are talking about the 2.5 liter 180hp engine?

Is that speculation or do you know for sure that the new XRS will get this engine? I assume you are talking about the 2.5 liter 180hp engine?

Right now, I think that it is all speculation (I do not have access to the news of upcoming product like some members do) based upon educated guesses. This much we know:
The Toyota 2AZ engine design is getting old and no longer competitive with the new engines from Nissan and Honda
The Toyota 2AZ was rough running under load (I know in my Camry that the 2AZ was very smooth at idle, but stomp on the gas to really accelerate, and it was not the smoothest sounding or feeling engine. It is by no means terrible, but bad compared to what Toyota's engines are usually like)
Toyota is in the process of replacing (and not leaving around examples of the older, replaced engines, with certain exceptions) its current range of engine designs, starting with the GR replacing the MZ (V6), UR replacing the UZ (V8) and ZR replacing the ZZ (medium Straight-4); the AZ is due for replacement (large Straight-4), as is, it seems, the NZ (small Straight-4)
There seems to be the thought that the 2.5-litre Straight-4 engine destined for the RAV4 (replacing the 2AZ 2.4-litre engine) and the 2.7-litre Straight-4 engine announced for the Venza belong to the same engine family (likely the AR engine family replacing the AZ)Putting all this information together, I would make an educated guess that the 2AZ engine in the XRS trim levels of the new Corolla and Matrix is destined for replacement.

Some more information about this engine (the 2AZ):
It is NOT used in the Corolla anywhere else in the world, as far as I know
This engine is produced here in North America, and it is by far the better-selling of the two engines in the Camry
The 2AZ is used in the RAV4, and since the RAV4 is based on the Corolla platform, if it fit in the RAV4, it would likely fit in the Corolla/Matrix (and, obviously, it does)
These two tidbits lead me to believe that Toyota uses it in the Corolla and Matrix because they need a bigger engine to be competitive with the Honda Civic and Mazda3, and because the 2AZ is available in North America, it is the one engine that has been chosen
Toyota may not want to keep the engine around in North America just so it can be used in low volumes in the Corolla/MatrixWould Toyota put another engine (like the sister engine, the 3ZR-FAE, with the Valvematic valve-timing and lift system) in the Corolla/Matrix? That is possible, but I doubt that Toyota would import -- in small volumes -- an engine just for the Corolla/Matrix. The Corolla and Matrix are very price sensitive, and using a low-volume engine would not be price-wise, but using a high-volume engine would be very price-wise.

All of these bits of information and educated guesses leads us to believe that Toyota will replace the 2AZ in the Corolla/Matrix with another engine, likely the new (AR?) engine destined for the RAV4 and Camry.

So, speculation, yes, but an educated guess, not a pie-in-the-sky theory.

Remember kids, capitalization is the difference between helping your uncle Jack off a horse and helping your uncle jack off a horse.


FYI. That doesn't make any sense. They both are saying the same thing. maybe you need a lesson in comma placement. Also, Uncle should have been capitalized (in both sentences) as should Jack in the first sentence, being that it is a proper name. Jack the verb should not be capitalized in the second sentence. :D


now, get out of the computer lab and go back to class.... :lol:

The corolla needs that update
the 2ZR-FE while a ok replacement to the 1ZZ-FE is still lacking.
Riding in a new corolla doesnt impress me much.
Also dont even get me started on the 2AZ-FE engine.
Corolla used to have alot of trim selections before. why only 5 now Standard, S, LE, XLE, and XRS

If they gonna have such a small selection might as well make them worth it

Standard, LE, XLE - Econo Engine 1.8l 4
S - Slightly tuned engine - 2.0l at least your paying more might as well get more power than standard version
XRS- XRS is supose to be the Extreme Race Sport model it should have a super engine not no 2.4 158hp crapper >.> might as well make it come stock with supercharger or turbo paying so much for it, its not even worth it. Other cars in its price range and competition totally kill it.

IMO the S should have had the 2.4l engine at 158 hp and the XRS a supercharged or turbocharged variant of the same engine. At least them it would be competitive with its rivals.

totally agree about the S model....what a waste of a trim level...just slapping on a spoiler and underbody kit does not make a car "sportier" when it has the same craptacular suspension as the CE that costs like 3 grand less

totally agree about the S model....what a waste of a trim level...just slapping on a spoiler and underbody kit does not make a car "sportier" when it has the same craptacular suspension as the CE that costs like 3 grand less

Marketing my friends!

I believe the "S" is the second biggest seller after the LE. Those two I see the most on the road. Probably more "S". Of course joe shmo is going to think that its faster. Its flashier but if that's good or not is subjective. :thumbup:

The thing is, I don't understand why Toyota didn't go all out with the XRS. I mean they already have the "S" which is their conservative model. The somewhat sporty model. The "I want a sporty looking car without the go" but yet the XRS isn't that much up and above the S. It's an S with bigger wheels and a bigger engine. How much sportier is the suspension and the dynamics of the XRS?

The thing is, I don't understand why Toyota didn't go all out with the XRS. I mean they already have the "S" which is their conservative model. The somewhat sporty model. The "I want a sporty looking car without the go" but yet the XRS isn't that much up and above the S. It's an S with bigger wheels and a bigger engine. How much sportier is the suspension and the dynamics of the XRS?

I don't know how the XRS drives, or any of the other models, since I have yet to drive the new Corolla. The XRS does have the strut tower brace, though, which the S does not have. Isn't the XRS the Corolla's equivalent to the Mazda3 GT, the compact car with the optional larger engine, but unfortunately, the XRS does not have the tight steering feel of the Mazda3. The Corolla does not have an equivalent to the Mazdaspeed3, but I cannot see it selling, since the Corolla's image is a nice, refined commuter car, not a zoom-zoom car (my apologies if I am infringing on Mazda's copyright).

I don't know how the XRS drives, or any of the other models, since I have yet to drive the new Corolla. The XRS does have the strut tower brace, though, which the S does not have. Isn't the XRS the Corolla's equivalent to the Mazda3 GT, the compact car with the optional larger engine, but unfortunately, the XRS does not have the tight steering feel of the Mazda3. The Corolla does not have an equivalent to the Mazdaspeed3, but I cannot see it selling, since the Corolla's image is a nice, refined commuter car, not a zoom-zoom car (my apologies if I am infringing on Mazda's copyright).

true the corolla is a sophisticated econobox
but when you are paying Thousands more for a S and XRS
You want some bang for your buck. Just because its a larger engine doesnt mean it wont get good gas millage.

We are just saying , paying that extra few grand better get you more than some groundkit clip ons and a S badge

(my apologies if I am infringing on Mazda's copyright).

I'll let it go this time but don't let it happen again:lol::lol::lol::thumbup:

The XRS would compete ideally with the Mazda GT. As well as the new Lancer which base gets 152hp engine and GTS is now (for 09) 168hp I believe. So in that range. The XRS is a more kick in the pants more serious suspension set up. Is it blistering quick? No but it does the job especially at speed I'm guessing. As well as other goodies. It might not have the an Si or Mazdaspeed but its going for the meat of the market. Toyota only expect 5% or so sales that will go to the XRS. Regardless I'm guessing Toyota will update the engine cause the price does seem pricey compared to the competition and what you get or don't get.

the XRS was never gonna be the big seller in the Corolla lineup, and i personally think it makes more sense to go all out or just kill the trim, they might actually get more sales if they went all out with performance and tag TRD all over it

the XRS out right now is too pricey + gas guzzling for those of us who are in it for the ride comfort and gas mileage and just want a commuter, so we won't think about it. On the other end of the spectrum this car is too weak for any car enthusiasts out there who expect a lot out of their car, on par with the STI, Evo and Speed3, or at least up to the level of the SI, the XRS falls short of every one of them, so it's like the middle child, too old to be cute but too young to be taken seriously