Toyota Prius taxi tops 340,000mi, dispels battery myth

Worries over the serviceable lifespan of battery packs have been at the forefront of many critics dislike of hybrid cars. With doom-and-gloom scenarios of pricey replacements and short service life, the pundits have posited the Prius’ long-term impracticality. But an Australian taxi outfit has compiled enough real-world data to put that idea to sleep.

With 32 Prius taxis operating in his Cairns, Queensland fleet of Black and White Taxis, owner Graham Boundy knows the truth about high-mileage hybrids -- and it’s surprisingly good. Each car racks up about 200,000km (125,000mi) each year. Two of the older examples have managed a lifespan of 350,000km (218,000mi) and 550,000km (341,000mi) before needing replacement of their nickel-metal hydride (NiMH) batteries. The only problem even at the end of their battery pack service life was a low voltage reading.The cars have been in service since September, 2005, and Bounds has ordered another 8 to bring his fleet total to 40.

According to Toyota Australia’s manager of hybrid sales and fleet strategy Vic Johnston, the use seen in the highest-mileage car during those three years equates to roughly 36 years of normal road use. The math works out a bit differently across the pond in the U.S., with a 15,000mi per year average equating to roughly 16 years of use. Still, that’s impressive for a hybrid, and in fact equal to or better than a person might expect of trouble-free service from a similarly priced standard combustion-powered car’s engine.Source: http://www.motorauthority.com/cars/toyota/toyota-prius-taxi-tops-340000mi-dispels-battery-myth/

So one battery pack made it to 218K and the other to 341K... quite the difference there...

The article fails to mention how well the battery packs still functioned up to the 218 and 341K marks, It'd be interesting to know if there was a 2, 3, 5? mpg drop in fuel mileage the last 10, 20, 50K miles etc...

heh heh
woot
run them toyotas ragged XD

either way if I have to pay out $5000-9000 every 250k on average (you have to take into consideration manufacturing defects. I think thats a decent investment considering the cost savings on fuel. In 2006 I paid $2700 in gas, if I can pay $900 with a prius and recoup that $1800*3 years, it works out to $5400, which isn't close to a new battery, but its probably less gas than $900/yr for a prius

either way if I have to pay out $5000-9000 every 250k on average (
yeah for a 2005 taxi, but what the article doesn't mention is the batterys decline over time for regular drivers! i thought the life span on the batteries was eight years no matter what mileage! so is it possible some body with a ten year old prius could be paying for new batteries at 36 thousand miles? mike

except that a prius costs how much?

Prius = much more than 10,000 and gets 40-45mpg

Old Corolla = around 1000-1500 and gets 35+ mpg (thats what im averaging)

hell... maybe I should start a corolla taxi service and make a bunch of money

either way if I have to pay out $5000-9000 every 250k on average (you have to take into consideration manufacturing defects. I think thats a decent investment considering the cost savings on fuel. In 2006 I paid $2700 in gas, if I can pay $900 with a prius and recoup that $1800*3 years, it works out to $5400, which isn't close to a new battery, but its probably less gas than $900/yr for a prius

don't forget the $13,000 premium you're paying to get the Prius over a 36+mpg Yaris. It'l take many more than 3 years to recoup..... just sayin'

So one battery pack made it to 218K and the other to 341K... quite the difference there...

The article fails to mention how well the battery packs still functioned up to the 218 and 341K marks, It'd be interesting to know if there was a 2, 3, 5? mpg drop in fuel mileage the last 10, 20, 50K miles etc...

Yeah, not complete info.

don't forget the $13,000 premium you're paying to get the Prius over a 36+mpg Yaris. It'l take many more than 3 years to recoup..... just sayin'

Are you suggesting that people use a Yaris as a Taxi? Why don't you just suggest a moped? or maybe a bicycle? A camry is right around $20000 right? a Prius is like $21500? That's your comparison.

So one battery pack made it to 218K and the other to 341K... quite the difference there...

The article fails to mention how well the battery packs still functioned up to the 218 and 341K marks, It'd be interesting to know if there was a 2, 3, 5? mpg drop in fuel mileage the last 10, 20, 50K miles etc...


Published failure rates by Toyota is 0.003% to date or 1 in 40,000 cars... By comparison, many cars exhibit a 1% failure rate of their automatic transmissions

With more than 100,000 Honda hybrids on the road, the automaker told Newsweek that fewer than 200 had a battery fail after the warranty expired. That’s a 0.002 likelihood. Toyota says its out-of-warranty battery replacement rate is 0.003 percent—or one out of 40,000 Priuses—for the second generation Prius.....

Far more Prius have been crashed and totalled than battery failures. Since Toyota has a bounty on the batteries, they have far more returned batteries than needed for failures.. They have had for decades remanufacturing programs with certified and warranty quality for expensive parts available through the dealer network e.g. engines, transmissions, starters, alternators, air conditioning compressors, etc. Those parts are available at far less cost than new from factory parts.. I've bought a few over the years for my long out of warranty Toyotas e.g. 220-270K mile vehicles... They have a similar program for traction batteries...

yeah for a 2005 taxi, but what the article doesn't mention is the batterys decline over time for regular drivers!
This article was about the use of the Prius as a taxi, NOT the use by regular daily drivers. So, why would you expect it would mention battery decline over time for regular drivers?

i thought the life span on the batteries was eight years no matter what mileage! so is it possible some body with a ten year old prius could be paying for new batteries at 36 thousand miles? mike

Where did you hear that? That does not make sense. Rechargeable battery life is affected by the number of charge/discharge cycles it goes through.

One of my salespeople is on the second battery pack in his Prius at 122K. Age is as big of an issue as miles with these batteries. Same goes for most any open rechargeable battery pack... shaver, cordless drill or Prius. Intensive use is actually good for this kind of pack.

Are you suggesting that people use a Yaris as a Taxi? Why don't you just suggest a moped? or maybe a bicycle? A camry is right around $20000 right? a Prius is like $21500? That's your comparison.


you took the words out of my mouth

In Toronto one company is now using TCH for their taxis and have noticed customers are willing to pay a premium for it over the cheaper crown vics / impalas

This article was about the use of the Prius as a taxi, NOT the use by regular daily drivers. So, why would you expect it would mention battery decline over time for regular drivers?
No the article is about "Worries over the serviceable lifespan of battery packs have been at the forefront of many critics dislike of hybrid cars." (and that was right from the article) they are using taxi's as an example.

Where did you hear that? That does not make sense. Rechargeable battery life is affected by the number of charge/discharge cycles it goes through.
it is common battery knowledge! age is just as much of a factor as use. if age was not a factor then you could have one charge discharge cycle (and under your theory) the battery would be good 50 years later even 100 years later!

Published failure rates by Toyota is 0.003% to date or 1 in 40,000 cars... By comparison, many cars exhibit a 1% failure rate of their automatic transmissions


Where was I questioning the failure rate? :dunno:

I was pointing out the vast mileage difference @ failure and my question was how well these batteries were still functioning after that many miles before failure.

No the article is about "Worries over the serviceable lifespan of battery packs have been at the forefront of many critics dislike of hybrid cars." (and that was right from the article) they are using taxi's as an example.


it is common battery knowledge! age is just as much of a factor as use. if age was not a factor then you could have one charge discharge cycle (and under your theory) the battery would be good 50 years later even 100 years later!

I'll offer just a little of info on my background and experience with hi-rel systems.

We do commercial design, installation and maintenance of DC power plants and battery systems supporting critical operations. These systems are there to keep server farms, telephone systems in large business, hospitals, universities, public safety running 24/7. We have had a couple of nuclear power plants as customers. We know of some of our systems have not been shut down, nor have gone down, in over 16 years of 24/7 operation. We have around 60 of these sites on maintenance contracts that we visit twice (some most critical sites 4 times) a year. We maintain long term trending data from our measurements to access battery condition.

With that little background intro, our chosen run of the mill (smaller) batteries (equivalent in size to automobile batteries) have a 10 year design life. The more robust batteries have a 20 year design life.. These systems are (by hydrid battery standards) old technology lead acid AGM gell cell systems. We essentially bet money on the life of these batteries in the pricing of our maintenance contracts. If they fail within the period we warrant, we pay to replace them.

With that little personal parallel, I can imagine that Toyota in making their 4 billion dollar R&D investment on the development of the Prius and god knows what investment in production facilities similarly did the engineering life cycle testing to know with high statistical confidence the life of their battery systems. Otherwise they would be at risk of early life battery failures and resulting adverse publicity, crashing the market for their product. No high tech company puts product into the market place without doing the reliability, life cycle qualification of the components that go into the product.

One thing I've learned about technology as a practicing, degree'd, electrical engineer for over 30 years, is never carry your assumptions about past technology as the performance expectation for new technology. With regard to new emerging battery technologies, I'm probably as well read as anybody..

OK to ask lot of questions on the hows, and whys but assuming things won't change is a recipe for failure. Those who do, get their lunch eaten by others who were not as short sighted..

And it looks like Toyota is eating the lunch of those who said or believed it couldn't be done..

I'll offer just a little of info on my background and experience with hi-rel systems.

We do commercial design, installation and maintenance of DC power plants and battery systems supporting critical operations. These systems are there to keep server farms, telephone systems in large business, hospitals, universities, public safety running 24/7. We have had a couple of nuclear power plants as customers. We know of some of our systems have not been shut down, nor have gone down, in over 16 years of 24/7 operation. We have around 60 of these sites on maintenance contracts that we visit twice (some most critical sites 4 times) a year. We maintain long term trending data from our measurements to access battery condition.

With that little background intro, our chosen run of the mill (smaller) batteries (equivalent in size to automobile batteries) have a 10 year design life. The more robust batteries have a 20 year design life.. These systems are (by hydrid battery standards) old technology lead acid AGM gell cell systems. We essentially bet money on the life of these batteries in the pricing of our maintenance contracts. If they fail within the period we warrant, we pay to replace them.

With that little personal parallel, I can imagine that Toyota in making their 4 billion dollar R&D investment on the development of the Prius and god knows what investment in production facilities similarly did the engineering life cycle testing to know with high statistical confidence the life of their battery systems. Otherwise they would be at risk of early life battery failures and resulting adverse publicity, crashing the market for their product. No high tech company puts product into the market place without doing the reliability, life cycle qualification of the components that go into the product.

One thing I've learned about technology as a practicing, degree'd, electrical engineer for over 30 years, is never carry your assumptions about past technology as the performance expectation for new technology. With regard to new emerging battery technologies, I'm probably as well read as anybody..

OK to ask lot of questions on the hows, and whys but assuming things won't change is a recipe for failure. Those who do, get their lunch eaten by others who were not as short sighted..

And it looks like Toyota is eating the lunch of those who said or believed it couldn't be done..

so if age is not a factor in the "new technology batteries" will they last 50-100 years under low usage? even toyota knows age is a factor. toyota puts the top age as 15years (post 2004 batteries) this is why their warranty is up way before 15years!

also which batteries are you talking about? the new technology after 2004 or the batteries before 2004? both technologies are different!
Here is a cut and paste from the link below! this is on the batteries after 2004! the pre 2004 batteries have a lower age factor!
Cut andPaste from link:
"In the U.S., the battery pack of the 2004 Prius is warranted for 100,000 miles (160,000 km) or 8 years, although Toyota has stated that they expect it to last 15 years. The warranty is instead 150,000 miles (240,000 km) or 10 years[8 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius#cite_note-7)"

Link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius

No one said age is not a factor.. but it should be viewed in context to the life of the overall vehicle. e.g. life of an engine, automatic transmission, body rust to the point of failure, all comparatively expensive and ending the economic life of most vehicles..

On the subject of design life versus warranty period, it generally works out that you want the design life of a component to be roughly twice the warrant period.. It's in the numbers, both reliability and financial.

The simple answer is the statistics of the bell shaped curve of where and when the failures will cluster. You want the left tail and certainly major portion of the bell curve outside of the warranty period. Additional contingency, or lack of, is determined by a particular companys allegiance to quality and degree that they want to protect their reputation. Major technological change also means the entire future of the company may ride on early life cycle performance of the new technology and, smart companies will over engineer design reliability given the price of failure .

Specificly to Toytoa NIMH batteries the 218,000 mile and 341,000 mile failures are just two points on the bell shaped curve. We and I'm sure Toyota's competitors would love to have first hand details of Toyotas life cycle testing data, but on the same note I think we have seen far more data released by Toyota than any other auto manufacturer has ever released on their emerging technology.

Life cycle methodology is a big and complex topic. Google "reliability engineering", "component qualification" or the term "fmea" to get a taste. :<)

don't forget the $13,000 premium you're paying to get the Prius over a 36+mpg Yaris. It'l take many more than 3 years to recoup..... just sayin'Depending on the driving, that difference will be recouped pretty quick, at least for taxis that do a lot of stop/go. For someone who does nothing but highway it'll take a ton longer, but for a taxi in stop/go it's only ~130k miles payback time w/ gas at $4/gallon and everything after is less money, not including less work on the brakes of course. And the Prius is a bigger/more noticeable car too.

so if age is not a factor in the "new technology batteries" will they last 50-100 years under low usage? even toyota knows age is a factor. toyota puts the top age as 15years (post 2004 batteries) this is why their warranty is up way before 15years!I'm guessing they'll last ~20-30 years if they're the chemistry (Lead Iron Phosphate) I'm thinking of, maybe longer. I got some data sheets from someone who was selling ~7kWh packs and if they're correct, they'll do at least 3,000 cycles to 70% depth of discharge w/ ~10% capacity degradation/1,000 cycles and last ~50 years in backup applications if kept at the proper temperature/charged up. Maybe longer if discharged to the ideal level for storage.

I'm guessing they'll last ~20-30 years if they're the chemistry (Lead Iron Phosphate) I'm thinking of, maybe longer. I got some data sheets from someone who was selling ~7kWh packs and if they're correct, they'll do at least 3,000 cycles to 70% depth of discharge w/ ~10% capacity degradation/1,000 cycles and last ~50 years in backup applications if kept at the proper temperature/charged up. Maybe longer if discharged to the ideal level for storage.

Lead Iron Phosphate batteries? That is new to me. I have read about Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries -- an option for Lithium Ion batteries -- but not lead iron phosphate.

We don't yet know what type of Lithium Ion batteries Toyota will use in their plug-in hybrid Prius, but they will continue to use Nickel-Metal Hydride batteries in the Prius, as they have all along, since the Prius was introduced.

Doh, I meant lithium. Supposedly they're going to offer an A/B/C model at different times w/ different options for different prices, one of which is rumored to be plug-in, and given cost constraints as well as their relatively firm position on the matter, I don't think they'll use NiMH for a plug-in vehicle, it just doesn't make sense in terms of cost or energy.

Edit- Didn't even fix the typo the first time around.

Scratch the the NiMH batteries for 2010 (http://blogs.thecarconnection.com/blogs/marty_blog/2010/2010-toyota-prius-spied/).

don't forget the $13,000 premium you're paying to get the Prius over a 36+mpg Yaris. It'l take many more than 3 years to recoup..... just sayin'
base Yaris (sedan AT) vs Prius:
Cost: $13,150 / $21,500.......price difference: $8,350
Fuel economy: 29 city mpg / 48 city mpg........city rating is more "real world" to what a taxi driver would get.
Miles driven: 125,000 miles driven annually for these taxis
Fuel cost in 1 year's time (based on $3.50/gallon): $15,068.21 / $9.114.58.........price difference: $5,953.62

It'll take LESS than 2 years to recoup the cost of a Prius over a Yaris in that taxi duty cycle. Prius offers more rear hip, shoulder and leg room also...good things in a "taxi".