NASCAR levies severe penalties against Gibbs

http://www.nascar.com/2008/news/headlines/bg/08/20/jlogano.tstewart.jgr.penalties/index.html

DAYTONA BEACH, Fla. -- Joe Gibbs Racing has suspended two Nationwide Series crew chiefs for the remainder of the season in the wake of penalties handed down by NASCAR after rule violations were discovered by inspectors prior to post-race testing on the chassis dynamometer Aug. 16 at Michigan.
NASCAR announced that seven crew members -- including No. 18 crew chief Jason Ratcliff and No. 20 crew chief Dave Rogers -- have been placed on indefinite suspension.
“
Although in no way was anything done that might have altered the race outcome, these JGR employees attempted to circumvent the NASCAR rule book and that is unacceptable.

”
-- JOE GIBBS




In response, team owner Joe Gibbs said in a statement: "A poor decision was made by some key members of our organization, and 100 percent of the blame rests with us."
Gibbs also noted that JGR would adding its own penalties to the team members on top of NASCAR's sanctions.
"We had come to the conclusion that we would add to any NASCAR imposed penalties with the minimum being suspension for the remainder of the season for those involved, including our two Nationwide Series crew chiefs. There will also be an additional monetary fine beyond the amount announced by NASCAR earlier today, which will be the responsibility of those involved."
A JGR spokesman confirmed to NASCAR.COM that team has suspended the seven crew members for the remainder of the season.
Both the Nos. 18 and 20 cars were found to be in violation of:
• Section 12-4-A (actions detrimental to stock car racing); 8-9 (competitive analysis -- from time to time, NASCAR may determine, in the interest of competition, that it is necessary or appropriate to undertake an analysis of the performance capabilities of a car, car part, component or equipment. The Competitor shall take whatever steps are requested by NASCAR Officials for this purpose. NASCAR also has the right to seal or impound cars, car parts, components and/or equipment for this purpose);
• Section 12-4-Q (1): (car, car parts, components and/or equipment used that do not conform to NASCAR rules, detailed in Section 20A of the 2008 NASCAR Rule Book, or has not been approved by NASCAR prior to the event, or is not required for the normal functional operation of the race car, or has been altered to detract from or compromise its integrity or effectiveness, whether operational or not);
• Section 12-4-K: (when NASCAR Officials mandate inspection during the Event, if any car, car parts, components, and/or equipment which have been used in the Event are taken from the racing premises without permission of a NASCAR Official, or are tampered with by any member of the team or anyone associated with the team: Magnetic spacer attached under the gas pedal with the intent of compromising the chassis dynamometer test).
As a result, NASCAR issued the following penalties:
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• Both of the drivers -- Joey Logano (http://www.nascar.com/drivers/dps/jlogano00/bg/index.html) of the No. 18 and Tony Stewart (http://www.nascar.com/drivers/dps/tstewart00/cup/index.html) of the No. 20 -- have been penalized with the loss of 150 championship driver points and placed on probation until Dec. 31. Joe Gibbs, owner of both of the cars, has likewise been penalized 150 championship owner points for each of those entries.
• Both crew chiefs -- Ratcliff and Rogers -- have been fined $50,000 and indefinitely suspended.
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/nascar/2008/news/headlines/bg/08/20/jlogano.tstewart.jgr.penalties/Joe.Gibbs.193.jpg


• From the No. 18 team, car chief Dorian Thorsen, engine tuner Michael Johnson, and crew member Toby Bigelow have been placed on indefinite suspension.
• From the No. 20 team, car chief Richard Bray and engine tuner Dan Bajek have been indefinitely suspended.
• In addition, the entire Nos. 18 and 20 Nationwide Series teams have been placed on NASCAR probation until Dec. 31.
"In our post-race inspection, our inspectors discovered some shims that were placed on the gas-pedal stop. They were magnets that were about a quarter-inch thick that prevented the accelerator from going 100 percent wide open," said Robin Pemberton, vice president of competition for NASCAR.
It is not unusual for NASCAR to test cars on the chassis dynamometer, which measures rear-wheel horsepower. Officials have administered this test several times during the season, and the Nos. 18 and 20 cars were only two of several that were tested following the race.
"In 17 years we have never had any representative of Joe Gibbs Racing knowingly act outside of NASCAR's rules, and that is something we consider essential to how we operate on a daily basis," Gibbs said. "What we have determined is that these individuals involved used extremely poor judgment in attempting to alter the results of NASCAR's dyno test following Saturday's Nationwide Series race in Michigan.
"Although in no way was anything done that might have altered the race outcome, these JGR employees attempted to circumvent the NASCAR rule book and that is unacceptable."
The JGR teams in question have dominated the series for much of the season, combining to win 14 of 25 races. The infractions come shortly after NASCAR announced rule changes for the Toyota engines used in the Nationwide Series last month. The guidelines were intended to cut 15 horsepower and level a playing field that fellow competitors had insisted was lopsided for much of the season because they believed the Toyota engines were producing more horsepower than other manufacturers.
"We take full responsibility and accept the penalties NASCAR has levied against us today," Gibbs said. "We are, however, disappointed that NASCAR chose to place our drivers on probation, as they had no knowledge or involvement of this incident."

sumary?

They got hammered big time. I assume they wanted to hide a hp advantage they found because of the new spacer design?

This latest action by NASCAR really makes the point of how much of a joke the car "brands" in NASCAR have become.

Since the demise of just about all rear wheel drive production vehicles in the US in the late '70s and early '80s, and subsequent "NASCAR" designed & spec'd rear wheel drive race cars (and parts), the raw block casting and cylinder heads are the only substantive part on the vehicle that has actually been sourced from vehicle manufacturer of the "brand" represented.

These parts are then CNC machined to specifications issued by NASCAR, fitted with dry sump oiling systems, reverse (water) flow cooling with additional water outlets machined low on each side of block water jacket for head first, then block cooling flow versus block first then head in the production versions they kind of represent, titanium rods, and of course good old carburetors that no vehicle manufacturer uses today. Just a few of the more obvious changes.

Now with NASCAR tweaking a particular vehicle "brand" 15 horsepower here and there, it really makes it a joke.. NASCAR has previously dictated changes to the Toyota engine, even after it was originally designed to NASCAR specifications. So whose engine is it? Toyota or NASCAR?

I think they should remove brand identities from all cars and call them "Frigidaires".

It would be more representative of the generic NASCAR appliances (serving as rolling advertising space) that they have become. :D:D:D

sumary?
NASCAR recently inplemented a new carb spacer for the Toyotas because they found that they had a 15-hp advantage.
Apparently, someone at Gibbs didnt like this, so when the cars were submitted for a chassis dyno test, they put a magnet on the back side of the gas pedal, so that the throttle couldnt be pushed all the way to 100%, which would obviously skew the dyno numbers.
All season long, in the Nationwide Series, a lot of other teams (mostly the Chevy teams) were whining that they couldnt compete with the Toyotas because of a horsepower difference. Gibbs has won 3/4 of the races in the Nationwide Series this year, many of them won with the #20 car (although with several different drivers).
Toyota uses the newest spec engine that NASCAR allows (allows a bigger bore), the other manufacturers do not. They all will have to use that carb space when they go to the new spec engine.
Now, the Chevy teams are saying that NASCAR didnt take enough away from the Toyotas.
Im not really sure what to think of all this. All of the teams push the rules to the limit all the time, but IMO putting a magnet on the back of the gas pedal to skew the dyno numbers goes far beyond that. Thats blatant cheating, IMO.
Hopefully it was just 1 or 2 technicians who did this on their own and it wasnt something Gibbs told them to do.

This latest action by NASCAR really makes the point of how much of a joke the car "brands" in NASCAR have become.

Since the demise of just about all rear wheel drive production vehicles in the US in the late '70s and early '80s, and subsequent "NASCAR" designed & spec'd rear wheel drive race cars (and parts), the raw block casting and cylinder heads are the only substantive part on the vehicle that has actually been sourced from vehicle manufacturer of the "brand" represented.

These parts are then CNC machined to specifications issued by NASCAR, fitted with dry sump oiling systems, reverse (water) flow cooling with additional water outlets machined low on each side of block water jacket for head first, then block cooling flow versus block first then head in the production versions they kind of represent, titanium rods, and of course good old carburetors that no vehicle manufacturer uses today. Just a few of the more obvious changes.

Now with NASCAR tweaking a particular vehicle "brand" 15 horsepower here and there, it really makes it a joke.. NASCAR has previously dictated changes to the Toyota engine, even after it was originally designed to NASCAR specifications. So whose engine is it? Toyota or NASCAR?


The short answer is that NASCAR favors Chevrolet. They always have. You can bet that if it had been the Chevys that had the 15-hp advantage, nothing would have been done to level the playing field.
I think that a lot of it is politicts too. NASCAR wanted Toyota to be competitive, but they dont want them to win too much. Lets face it, Toyota has DOMINATED the Nationwide Series this year and a lot of people who follow NASCAR dont like to see that.

^^Yes, dodge has the hp advantage now in the Nationwide series, but they still cant win.

Kyle is untouched so far
so lets keep it like that
this is bullshit if you ask me

If you expand the guidelines to allow a new engine spec
and you use the new engine spec
you are within guidelines
if however you dont upgrade to the new specs then well
tough luck
come back next year with a new engine

A lot of NASCAR is politicts. Oftentimes you will see a certain manufacturer who has a slight disadvantage sandbag and then whine to NASCAR that they need help and then when they get that help, boom they go nuts and win a bunch of races.
Like I said, the Chevy teams have been whining all season that the Toyotas have a 20-hp advantage. I swear, in every interview of a Chevy-driving Nationwide Series driver, they always said, "I sure wish we had the 20 extra horsepower those Toyotas have."
I too think its BS to take away from the Toyotas. NASCAR should have instead held a meeting with all of the Chevy, Ford and Dodge teams and told them to stop whining and instead tell their engine builders to work harder and come up with better engines.
Toyota designed that engine well within the rules and all they are guilty of is making their engine too good.
NASCAR loves to preach about having a, "level playing field" but what usually ends up happening is they give the Chevys a slight advantage.
Ive been watching NASCAR most of my life (28 years) and they have ALWAYS favored Chevrolet.
Gibbs will be fine though. They will punish whoever is responsble and they will move on. Gibbs isnt known for being a cheater, so I honestly dont think that they did this on purpose. Id say its more like some engineer was upset about the rules change and make a stupid decision.
Its funny, on another forum that I go on, there was a thread about this and one poster said they should take away all of Kyle Busch's wins and points from this season (obviously this person is a Toyota hater), because this person claims they KNOW that they were cheating in the Cup Series too.
Obviously, this person is conviently forgetting the fact that Kyle is one heck of a driver and plain and simple has outdriven everyone else this year.
If Gibbs were cheating in Cup, Hamlin and Stewart would have done much better. Take away Kyle Busch and Gibbs hasnt been all that impressive this year.
Like I said, a lot of NASCAR fans deeply resent the success that Toyota is having. They think that NASCAR should be for, "American" brands only.

• Section 12-4-K: (when NASCAR Officials mandate inspection during the Event, if any car, car parts, components, and/or equipment which have been used in the Event are taken from the racing premises without permission of a NASCAR Official, or are tampered with by any member of the team or anyone associated with the team: Magnetic spacer attached under the gas pedal with the intent of compromising the chassis dynamometer test).
^is this a common cheat? that's pretty low of those team members.

that's the same reason to why my camry's so underpowered at the dyno- the pedal is hindered by my floormats. LMAO

It is common to alter parts to gain an advantage.
One example of this that comes to mind that that they used to be able to alter the fenders of the cars a little bit in order to gain more downforce. It wasnt exactly legal, but it was a grey area that NASCAR really didnt enforce.
It was common during a pit stop to see the crew members remove the tire and then pull on the upper part of the fender to flare it out a bit and gain downforce.
However, on the car they currently use, when they inspect them they have a template that fits the dimensions that NASCAR specifies and if that template doesnt fit exactly perfect, its a rule infraction. Therefore, the teams no longer have a grey area to work with and gain an advantage.
I can recall another instance that happened last year where the team of Martin Truex was caught with a rear wing that didnt exactly fit the specs. It was close, but I think they trimmer some off of it in order to reduce drag. They ended up getting a penalty for that.
It does happen, but as the teams are finding out that NASCAR has gotten very strict and is handing out more and more extreme punishments, they arent trying to cheat as much.
Lets face it, they all cheat. If you aint cheatin', you aint winnin'. The smart ones just dont get caught.

btw, this reminds me of why toyota was banned from the WRC a few years back... haha.

I'll be the first to agree that the whole thing stinks but the fact that the teams got caught trying to dodge the rules is the real issue here. It was stupid to pull the stunt they pulled.

NASCAR is a business like any other... it sure as hell isn't a sport. They don't want ANY brand dominating every race because it muddies the sponsorship dollar amounts... pure and simple.

Perhaps this is why their market share is down in every event they run... and has been for the last 3 - 4 years. They need to come up with something more interesting than NASCAR Spec racing series to keep my interest. The CHASE was supposed to be something to add interest... "yawn"

NASCAR's TV ratings have been up this year though. Id say its a sign of the times. Toyota is winning and their ratings are up.
Im not a fan of the chase either. It was always set up so that the driver who was the most consistent over a wide range of tracks all year long won the championship.
Now they have this whole playoff system, where they reset the points for the last 10 races and IMO it diminishes the original spirit of the points system.
They did modify it by giving you a certain number of bonus points for number of wins (because a couple seasons back all the drivers in the top 10 just cruised around and raced for points instead of going for wins in the last few races), but IMO they need to go back to like it was and get rid of the chase.
Id also like to see it go back to being real stock car racing. Take the car off the showroom floor, put in whatever safety equipment they need and tell the teams to modify the car as much as possible while sticking with the stock design. IMO, that would much better reflect what the best car is and at least then they could test technology that might someday end up on production cars. Id like to see them do something like what you see in SCCA or European Touring Car racing.
I still like NASCAR though. I grew up watching it and I will likely always watch it.

You are correct in saying some of their races are experiencing a rating boost this year. It is small but it is there. I think Toyota coming in and Junior launching his new deal had a positive impact on the series - spectator wise. Overall ratings are still lower than 12 and 24 month prior periods.

I'm not trashing them at all, just making observations. I don't dislike NASCAR as a whole. I still find some of it entertaining. I just believe it could be a lot better... The CHASE is a joke. The COT is a joke. I hope they find their way back on track soon.

and HOLY COW, those Euro Touring Cars are a blast. We need that stuff here.

btw, this reminds me of why toyota was banned from the WRC a few years back... haha.

It was 13 years ago, and they were only suspended for a season due to a rigged turbo.

and HOLY COW, those Euro Touring Cars are a blast. We need that stuff here.

That's one of the smartest comments I've read on this forum in a while. German DTM and BTCC rock.

It was 13 years ago, and they were only suspended for a season due to a rigged turbo.

ah. misuse of word then. "suspended" indeed. they did come back with the corollas for a while...

ah. misuse of word then. "suspended" indeed. they did come back with the corollas for a while...

For a bit, yeah. I'd like to see them get back into it, WRC could use a big name manufacturer. Best racing series on earth, in my opinion.

For a bit, yeah. I'd like to see them get back into it, WRC could use a big name manufacturer. Best racing series on earth, in my opinion.
i agree. i miss the coverage on the speed channel. since then, i haven't kept up.

ok. now i'm off topic. :lol:

The COT is a joke.
The COT was a needed change. Its a much safer car than the old one was. They made a lot of little changes, such as moving the driver more towards the middle, adding foam to the sides to protect the driver from impact and making the roof taller, so that it was easier for taller drivers to get out of the car quickly (such as if there is a fire).
If you watched the Darlington race that Kyle Busch won, you saw him bounce that car off the was at least 10 times during that race. The car just kept chugging along. Had that been the old car, no way would it have been able to withstand that kind of abuse.
The COT also addressed the aero complaints the drivers had. They wanted a car that could pass better in the draft and the COT addresses those concerns. Daytona and Talladega used to be a, "follow the leader" kind of race, now you actually have racing and many lead changes over the course of the race.
Also, the bodies are now the same from one manufacturer to another, so it eliminates the constant whining that one brand has an aero advantage over another.

HOLY COW, those Euro Touring Cars are a blast. We need that stuff here.
Finally something we can agree on. :thumbsup:
For a bit, yeah. I'd like to see them get back into it, WRC could use a big name manufacturer. Best racing series on earth, in my opinion.
I agree. I enjoy all form of motorsport, but IMO WRC is one of the craziest kind of racing there is. They dont race on a dedicated tracks (just on dirt/tarmac roads), they dont have walls that keep them on the race course and they dont have a safety crew that rushes to their aid if they crash. They race on tracks where if they make a mistake, they could easily plunge off of a clif.
NASCAR is cool, the NHRA is cool, the World Of Outlaws is great too; but none of that can match the insanity of WRC.
The only kind of motorsport that I would say is crazier than WRC is motocross. I say that because in MX the jumps are bigger and you dont have a rollcage to protect you, so the risk is greater if you crash.
Look at Travis Pastrana. He got sick of being hurt all the time doing MX and freestyle motocross, so he took up rally. Like he said, rally cars are just like motocross, but you are encased in a rollcage, so you dont get hurt as bad when you crash.

The only kind of motorsport that I would say is crazier than WRC is motocross. I say that because in MX the jumps are bigger and you dont have a rollcage to protect you, so the risk is greater if you crash.

but on the jumps- it's only time till we incorporate this into normal races:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDi0MZJZ-w0

and wtf @ this (around 2:40 mark):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wB4RSKvufak&feature=related

and how subie capitalized on this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTdldqUQYto

:thumbsup: /thread hijack

Dont get me wrong, rally is definetly one of the more dangerous forms of auto racing, but its still nothing like MX.
I used to race MX and several of my friends still do. Crashing, getting hurt, riding with injuries and fighting through the pain is part of the game. When you ride a dirtbike, its not a matter of if you will get hurt, its a matter of WHEN you will get hurt.
Thats really why I gave up MX. I cant afford to get hurt, miss work and lose my house, my truck and everything I own in exchange for a little fun on a dirtbike.

^^ You are right about that. MX is a sport for 16 year olds that heal quickly and still live with mom and dad.

^^ You are right about that. MX is a sport for 16 year olds that heal quickly and still live with mom and dad.
No kidding. My friends who still race MX definetly gave me a hard time about giving it up, but they are also the ones who are broke every week because of how expensive of a sport it is.
It was definetly fun, but you gotta have really deep pockets in order to race MX. When you consider that dirtbikes for for $6,000-$8,000 nowdays and you will spend at least $1,000-$2,000 in maintenance every year not to mention all that money you will spend getting to the races and then in entry fees, its gets pretty pricey.
Nowdays, I play golf. Its a bit pricey when you first get into it (Id say Ive got at least $1,000 invested in the set of clubs I have right now), but after that its actually a pretty cheap sport.
I play 9 holes once a week and it costs me $15. I know people who play golf 3-5 times a week and rent a cart and that gets pretty expensive, but IMO thats going a little overboard.
I'll stick to golf. Its fairly inexpensive and its by far the most challenging sport there is. Those pro golfers on TV make it look easy, but its not.

MX is still an awesome sport. My old bones couldn't do it anymore.

Meanwhile... back on topic: Looks like Stewart and group had a pretty good NASCAR Toyota outing this weekend. The Toyotas looked strong.

Yup, Kyle Busch had a rough weekend though. A mistake in the pits cost him the Nationwide race and he was a victim of the old Bristol, "bump 'n run" in the Cup race.

well of course MX is one of the craziest motorsports (it's one of the few sports that can top out rallying in the crazy scale), but now we're way off topic. haha.