Ethanol and its affect on MPG

My wife drives an '06 Avalon XL. About 70K on the odometer.

Until recently I had used lesser expensive brands of fuel that satisified the octane requirement. The vehicle always ran well.

I also monitor mpg.

Recently I noticed a drop in mpg; then also noticed a sticker on the pumps indicating fuel may contain as much as 10% ethanol.

MPG using this fuel was on avg about 26 to 27 mpg.

I then switched to name brand fuels like Shell and Chevron.

MPG went up to 29.5 on avg.

I see the same effect on my Avalon and Highlander. Whenever I'm in Nevada and fill up there with non-ethanol gasoline my mileage improves by about 10%. Ethanol all around is a loser in my book.

:thumbsdow

My wife drives an '06 Avalon XL. About 70K on the odometer.

Until recently I had used lesser expensive brands of fuel that satisified the octane requirement. The vehicle always ran well.

I also monitor mpg.

Recently I noticed a drop in mpg; then also noticed a sticker on the pumps indicating fuel may contain as much as 10% ethanol.

MPG using this fuel was on avg about 26 to 27 mpg.

I then switched to name brand fuels like Shell and Chevron.

MPG went up to 29.5 on avg.

Every gas station has have the 10% ethanol for decades. Now if it was E85, that will decrease your gas mileage so watch out for the E85 gas.

I've noticed the same thing on my car too.

Ethanol in gasoline is to thank as well for the soaring price of corn oil.

We should compile a list of the gas stations in North America and types and grades that do not use ethanol.

My wife drives an '06 Avalon XL. About 70K on the odometer.

Until recently I had used lesser expensive brands of fuel that satisified the octane requirement. The vehicle always ran well.

I also monitor mpg.

Recently I noticed a drop in mpg; then also noticed a sticker on the pumps indicating fuel may contain as much as 10% ethanol.

MPG using this fuel was on avg about 26 to 27 mpg.

I then switched to name brand fuels like Shell and Chevron.

MPG went up to 29.5 on avg.

You'll need to do more testing, just to be sure. I'd give at least a month or two if you haven't yet done so.

In my own experience fuels with ethanol made the car run with a bit less mpg, about one or two mpg. Also made it smell foul, like booze.

Gene

With my Highlander the difference close to 10%. When loaded up and hitting the freeways in California I average about 26.5 MPG at 65 MPH, but in Nevada using non-ethanol I average 28.5. I'm dubious about the ecological benefits of ethanol to being with because of its production methods (no benefit at all, and with some production methods even worse), and due to its lower energy you end up consuming more gas to drive the same number of miles. IMO, ethanol only serves to grease the political machine. :thumbsdow

up here in the N.E. we get hammered with the E10 winter blend plus the affects cold temps have on fuel economy. My 06 Avalon could lose up to 20% mpg's...... waiting to see how the new venza I4 reacts this winter to the formulation. On a trip fom NH to FL last summer, I got 31 mpg's @ 75 mph ave (which translated to getting there in 2.5 tanks of fuel - a substntial difeence from winter mpgs.

Beyond lost mpg's, E10 has major affects on carbureted engines.... especially motorcycles when they're put into stasis over the winter months or as little as 2-3 weeks during a vacation period.... had to have my carbs rebuilt because of the E10 depisits to the tue of $600. A lot of people are going to the dealerships expecting warranty coverage and are told - "sorry nota warranty problem...it's a fuel problem..." Injection systems ar not immune.....it's expected to show up with long use of E10! And the Fed wants to go to E20????

Acetone has been bantied about as an additive to improve the mpg's with E10 formulation with mixed results reported..... the bigger question is the unknown affect on fuel system components.

Has anyone tried acetone? Results?

[QUOTE=aznstylez;2884212]Every gas station has have the 10% ethanol for decades. /QUOTE]


If so, Shell must be using better Ethanol. I continue to see at least 2 mpg better with Shell and Chevron vs. mom-n-pop.

Get Iridium Spark Plugs. Problem solved. It lasts longer and burns more of the fuel per a spark regardless of the mixture. E10 is in 99 / 100 stations are you going to avoid all these stations and risk running on empty in the middle of nowhere? Get Iridium Spark Plugs and I guarantee you that it will pay for itself in less than half a year due to gas savings period depending on how much you drive.

Iridium spark plugs will last far longer. They'll have no effect on the combustion of the fuel, compared with any other appropriate plugs that aren't misfiring. A spark is a spark.

[QUOTE=aznstylez;2884212]Every gas station has have the 10% ethanol for decades. /QUOTE]


If so, Shell must be using better Ethanol. I continue to see at least 2 mpg better with Shell and Chevron vs. mom-n-pop.

I dunno where you got your info on using 10% ethanol in all gas stations for decades.....:confused: it's only been madadated as a substitute for mbte for the past three years..... and when ya go outside of N.E. as in last summer - mpg's went back to normal...... Since ethanol has been nmore costly to produce and only in greater supply for the sevderal year, why would a gas company add more cost into their product?

[quote=Mike Murrell;2892193]

I dunno where you got your info on using 10% ethanol in all gas stations for decades.....:confused: it's only been madadated as a substitute for mbte for the past three years..... and when ya go outside of N.E. as in last summer - mpg's went back to normal...... Since ethanol has been nmore costly to produce and only in greater supply for the sevderal year, why would a gas company add more cost into their product?

+1

I think it was in 2006 that all the pumps around my area started sporting ethanol stickers. A friend says he shops around and only uses gas without ethanol, but darned if I know where he finds it. Probably just a station that didn't put up the required stickers.

now the real trick is to find premuim fuel w/o ethanol

Every gas station has have the 10% ethanol for decades. Now if it was E85, that will decrease your gas mileage so watch out for the E85 gas.

+3.

Our governor here in FL only recently decreed that all gasoline sold in FL would be E10. The transition seems to be pretty much complete now. All my favorite former pure gas refuges are now sporting the E10 stickers -- and my mileage has dropped accordingly. :headbang:

i never know that.

I live in Minnesota and E20 is mandated to be sold in minnesota by middle of 2013. It has been on our news for days now. Get ready for it to come your way soon.

I have a 1987, 1992, and 1996 vehicles and stopped using the ethanol a few years ago. I store the vehicles in the winter and find there are no separation problems when using non-ethanol gas. Performance is slightly better when pulling a load as well as idle is not as rough when using non-ethanol gas. You can still buy unleaded non-ethanol gas here but it cost about 25 cents more a gallon, which is a wash and my gas consumption is minimal anyway. I use the ethanol crap in my 2006 and don't notice the difference but then again it is my wifes car...ha ha.

I had to replace two carbs in my toro lawnmowers ($150 each) because the seals were damaged from the #%%@##$ alcohol. I also have a new 2008 60 hp 4 stroke Mercury outboard and wrote Mercury a letter (via mercury's forum) and was informed that water separation filters must be installed with 10 % alcohol blend and my tank (27 gallons) should be drained during the winter, if possible. Stabilizer supposedly does not completely solve the separation issues according to mercury - so I have always used non-ethanol gas in my new 4 stroke too. They told me the warranty would be void with running E20. No exceptions.

Look at the modifications at the following site which are required to run various levels of alcohol for cars older the 15 years. The E20 level requires lots of modifications.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_ethanol_fuel_mixtures

I also read that cars designed to be run E10 had 40 percent catalytic failures when run with E20.

I am all for helping the farmers, environment, and reducing oil dependence but voiding my warranty is another matter. Toro sure did not cover the cost of my carbs.

Using 1.3 gallons of gas to produce 1 gallon of ethanol is crazy and the business has to be subsidized by this nutty state.

Anyone else dealing with these issues in your state? It is time to rebel with a Tea party or should it be a "Gas" party?

Regards.

yep....had to rebuild my carbs on my motorcycle and last year soem proble - carb overflow and an ignition rom a old battery charger caused a spark - lost the motorcycle.

FYI.... BlueTron is the ethanol treatment they are promoting - it has enzymes that addresses the sugars in the ethanol...


Typical government = shoo, aim ready...... no forethought :thumbsdow

Stations around my area (Shell, Cheron and Petrol Canada) have such 10% E in Regular grade. There is no way out unless you use the Premium.
We do find the fuel consumption is worsen by 5-10%.
Then why put such E in ?

Stations around my area (Shell, Cheron and Petrol Canada) have such 10% E in Regular grade. There is no way out unless you use the Premium.
We do find the fuel consumption is worsen by 5-10%.
Then why put such E in ?

Originally it was the government's substitution for mbte but mr. obama initiated legislation to "reduce the dependency on foreign oil..."(qouted: from mr.Obama - using ethanol as in So. America.... )....if 10% was good....why not 20%..... another FUBAR by the government

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_..._fuel_mixtures (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_ethanol_fuel_mixtures)

it says:
"all test vehicles exhibited a loss in fuel economy proportional with the lower energy density of ethanol, for example, with E20, the average reduction in fuel economy was 7.7% when compared to the miles per gallon achieved by the gasoline only (E0) test vehicles."

So our finding of 5-10% reduction with E10 is justified.

IMO the folks we ought to be enraged at are the makers of equipment that can't run safely on ethanol blended gasoline. The writing's been on the wall for a long time that it's all that's going to be available.

Catalyst failures with higher ethanol blends are a problem of old carbureted engines that don't adjust the mixture. Won't happen with an O2 sensor feedback system. Those cars had a ton of catalyst failures, anyway, mostly due to not having a system for detecting and warning of misfires.

For most cars built since ~1990, it's going to be a nonissue. But we should raise hell with builders of lawnmowers, boat engines, motorcycles or whatever that are still turning a blind eye to problems being caused by THEIR continued use of materials that can't handle the fuel that we all know we're going to have to use.

Iridium spark plugs will last far longer. They'll have no effect on the combustion of the fuel, compared with any other appropriate plugs that aren't misfiring. A spark is a spark.


I disagree, i replaced double platinums with Iridiums in my prizm and noticed a performance and MPG increase, so you can't say that spark is spark

IMO the folks we ought to be enraged at are the makers of equipment that can't run safely on ethanol blended gasoline. The writing's been on the wall for a long time that it's all that's going to be available.

I have to argue against this point whereas there is no good reason to use ethanol.... becuse is NOT a green product since is over-uses warer resources to make it and is causes engines to run less efficience - using more fuel...... i.e., less mpg's.... and runs dirtier. another ass-backwards government plan gone amuck.

Catalyst failures with higher ethanol blends are a problem of old carbureted engines that don't adjust the mixture. Won't happen with an O2 sensor feedback system. Those cars had a ton of catalyst failures, anyway, mostly due to not having a system for detecting and warning of misfires.

The issue goes far beyond the fuel mixture and sensors..... the E10 leaves deposits on the needle valves and other carburetor components to make them inoperable.

For most cars built since ~1990, it's going to be a nonissue. But we should raise hell with builders of lawnmowers, boat engines, motorcycles or whatever that are still turning a blind eye to problems being caused by THEIR continued use of materials that can't handle the fuel that we all know we're going to have to use.

FYI most if not all motorcycle manufacturers now use injection systems - HOWEVER, it is expected that injection rails will fail within a 5-year duty cycle using E10 which is a very expensive proposition. Discussions with motorcycle services experts indicate - nobody knows what is going to happen if/when they go to E20


Bottom line - no real benefit for blending ethanol in the fuel supply..... as it does not reduce emssions, reduces mpg's and causes shor-term/long-term damage to fuels systems. If y remember the switch to ethanol was as a substitute for mbte....

And before ya want to argue imported oil supply dependency, we have plenty of resources within our sovereign territory to off-load much of tha depenency..... Not to mention we as a culture need to embrace the concept of energy efficiency - inlcuding getting th esoccer mom off the over-powered full-sized 4WD SUV to shutle the kids around.....

I disagree, i replaced double platinums with Iridiums in my prizm and noticed a performance and MPG increase, so you can't say that spark is spark
But it is.

Self-monitored changes in performance are rarely well controlled and reliable. That's why so many gadgets are sold, we expect to see an improvement, so we do. Aside from that, there can be some real slight changes from changes in the reach of a plug, as if the spark gap is nearer the center of the combustion chamber it amounts to a slight increase in the spark advance. That's the basis of the old "miracle" plugs sold by J.C. Whitney and others that told you to check the idling RPM before and after changing the plugs and look for a small increase. And a larger gap can start combustion a little faster. But the material the electrodes are made of can have no effect on combustion.

NHcycle, you're wasting your breath trying to argue the benefits or lack thereof of ethanol. The point is, it's a done deal politically that we've got ethanol blended gasoline. We all have to adapt or break down. The manufacturers should have recognized that long ago. Ranting against ethanol or wishing it weren't there won't make it go away. This is a small special interest group of people that don't like it, and will never have the clout of the ethanol lobby.

Ahem..... wasn't intending to come off as ranting..... it's just the facts.... the manufactures don't care as they push back on theconsumers as "it's not a warrantty problem" and as such have no skin in the game.....

Politicall motivated - absolutely. No argument there whatsoever! As a matter of little known fact - mr obama was the dope that pushed the E10 and proudly toook credit for it.

Three years ago I participated in a focus group that was asked about impressions and views on the then known presidential candidates.... each candidate gave a vidoe bio on what they were all bout, accoplishments and the such...... mr. obama proudly declared E10 was his acomplishment becasue ethanol worked in Brazil....and since it worked there we need to do it here. So in his reality we should 100% ethanol....

FWIW.... the over-arching concern about mr. obama was his lack of national experience and no known accomplishments...... hmmmm

As for political base against E10 or E20..... let them force E20 on us and watch the push back...... millions of vehicle owners won't be to happy...... nothing is ever a "done deal" otherewise we woulda had health care a "done deal" a last summer.

If Mr. Obama took credit for giving us E10, he was stretching the truth. It goes back way before him. It's certainly politically expedient to support it. I remember George W. Bush's speeches touting his unswerving support for "alternative fuels," mainly corn ethanol. Gets lots of votes in the Midwest. Manufacturers are where we should be applying the pushback. If we buy stuff that won't run on E10, E20 or whatever's likely to be in the pumps in the near future, we mainly have ourselves to blame for the results. I don't expect you'll see a massive pushback from car owners, because I expect they'll have few problems.

no hard argument either way on your points..... the issue isn't what we buy tomorrow..... it's what's out there today.... those people who can afford stupid gov't decisions the least are gonna be hurt the most......

The real core of the U.S. oil-dependency issue is consuption and lack or more efficient matrix of energy alternatives like electric, CNG, Hydrogen, wind, solar, geo-thermal under a comprehensive national energy plan/policy. The answer is never going to be a single solution for political expediency.

I don't disagree with any of that.

mea culpa..... must need my glasses updated????

Ethanol is another example of government failure due to unintended consequences.

Ethanol sucks, period.

My once amazing fuel economy has now gone down the drain after they introduced blended gas. :facepalm:

Ethanol sucks, period.

My once amazing fuel economy has now gone down the drain after they introduced blended gas. :facepalm:

That's why I love filling up in Nevada....bam!...instant 10% improvement in mileage.

Ethanol and compact fluorescent bulbs, two products foisted on the American consumer by government with many unintended consequences as a result. Rant over....:D

That's why I love filling up in Nevada....bam!...instant 10% improvement in mileage.

Ethanol and compact fluorescent bulbs, two products foisted on the American consumer by government with many unintended consequences as a result. Rant over....:D

You might be interested in this news story:

http://kstp.com/news/stories/s1442850.shtml?cat=1

It is an inconvenience to fill up on non-ethanol gas in this god forsaken state of Minnesota. I have to drive about 30 miles round trip to buy gas for my older small engines. I have two snow blowers, two tractors, pressure washer, jet ski and two mowers - none of which will run E10 gas. I already had to change two carbs because they started to leak from the damage.

I have two trucks and 2 cars, weedwackers, generator, etc. none of which will run anything higher than E10 - which I refuse to use anyway. Screw it, I pay for the non-ethanol premium at 25 cents more a gallon and don't have storage problems or corrosion issues - or ANY fuel issues.

The state is pushing E15 then E20 by 2012 if approved by EPA.

Many states are following suite with Minnesota.

The big problem is availability of non-ethanol gas now. Will E10 be the new gas in shortage as E15 or E20 is mandated. There are only a hand full of stations that sell non-ethanol here now. Only three where I live within 15 miles of a population of 2+ million people!

I am all for change but every thing "NEW" I own won't run anything over e10. My 2006 Saturn will not run it.

I looked at a new Toyota truck last week and the dealer could not answer if the warranty would be voided if E15 or E20 as run in a 2010 model. He implied I should not worry about it - the EPA won't approve it. Yah right - just like E10 was not to be approved. Gee, what the heck am I suppose to do to find E10 three years from from now when it is the new gotta have gas for "older vehicles" and 90 percent of the people in the state are lined up to get it at the station! Don't these legislators think about the laws they pass!

For you that don't know about non-ethanol gas - it is sold at a select number of stations and a sign on the pump states by law for use "only" in antique vehicles, boats, snow mobiles, motorcycles, etc.

Sorry for my rant and raving but this *NO(No##%^%^ state just moves forward with out thoughly studying the long term effects and impact on the economy. For me, I decided not to BUY that new truck since it is NOT E15 or E20 compatible.

You members that live in states that are not exposed to this issue better get ready because it will come your way sooner or later.

Got to go have a beer, 7 percent alcohol - no gas!

Regards.

Noooo Shit......

I have generator I have to rebuild yearly because o this bullshit - even while using BlueTron E10 treatment with enzymes....... :poop:

I lost a terrific motorcycle last summer....the carbs got totally screwed up and major cause carb overflow and a spark from a battery charger cable lit the entire thing up...... The motorcycle manufacturers WILL NOT cover screwed up carb or fuel injectors when they go to E15 and E20...... a LOT of new motorcycles were brought in for carb tear-down and rebuild over the past few years - not covered under warranty..... after sitting for only a couple of weeks...... it's become a major source of service revenue..... been fighting this for the past 3-years.

And the really frustrating thing is - Ethanol blend provides no net benefit.....:headbang::headbang::headbang::headban g:

The head bang animation is great! Just how I feel at the moment. What state do you live in? My wife's sister who lives in California said the state tried to implement E10 but it was not successful. Maybe it was too expensive to transport alcohol from the midwest to Ca?

Sorry to here about your motorcycle and all of the warranty issues..

Regards.

I live in NH as in NHcycle.... in the land of no sales or income taxes:thumbsup: ...... actually about 40 miles north of Boston......

It is an inconvenience to fill up on non-ethanol gas in this god forsaken state of Minnesota. I have to drive about 30 miles round trip to buy gas for my older small engines.

Many states are following suite with Minnesota.

You members that live in states that are not exposed to this issue better get ready because it will come your way sooner or later.


True, how true! Government always knows what's best for us, even if it drives us to the poor house or kills us. Sounds like it's time for you to move to a freer, non-ethanol state. :thumbsup:

To government legislators I say....:fuckyou:

-

I live in NH as in NHcycle.... in the land of no sales or income taxes:thumbsup: ...... actually about 40 miles north of Boston......

Where is "new heaven" located? Sounds like a great place to live! No personal or income taxes! Unbelievable. Minnesota has very high personal and business taxes, the later being the highest in the world I am told. Sales tax is 7 and 1/4 percent.

I am driving to town (30 miles rt) now to buy non--ethanol gas since my pressure washer won't use E10, which is sitting in my garage. Have a nice day.

NH = State of New Hampshire.....

Where is "new heaven" located? Sounds like a great place to live! No personal or income taxes! Unbelievable. Minnesota has very high personal and business taxes, the later being the highest in the world I am told. Sales tax is 7 and 1/4 percent.

I am driving to town (30 miles rt) now to buy non--ethanol gas since my pressure washer won't use E10, which is sitting in my garage. Have a nice day.

And Nevada ain't bad either. No state income taxes, very little regulation of businesses or personal life (licenses, fees, etc., when adding on to to a home, for example), and no ethanol.