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post #31 of 73 Old 11-18-2009, 06:46 PM
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Awesome. Looking forward to seeing what else you have to say about the setup.



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post #32 of 73 Old 11-18-2009, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Tony the Tiger View Post
Anyway, here's a short video clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPOCo8Uba0E


And here's a boost graph comparison... About 1000RPM earlier spool, and an instant 5-6 PSI from 1500-2500, and 7.5+ PSI above 3000RPM



I will start another thread soon after I get the car back together by the end of the month.
but it also looks like you've gained after 4k rpms. the boost kept going up to almost 20psi!!

what was the hp and tq numbers?

Tony sir you are amazing and i was woundering when you would do this


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post #33 of 73 Old 11-18-2009, 09:48 PM Thread Starter
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Damn, that sounds/looks awesome

And I guess that answers the question

oh, how I would love to do a setup like that
you guys think a roots Eaton-m90 might be workable on a 3vz? because I might be able to get one, but I don't want to do anything until I have some idea as to the chances of it working (properly )

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post #34 of 73 Old 11-18-2009, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Gothmog3VZ View Post
Damn, that sounds/looks awesome

And I guess that answers the question

oh, how I would love to do a setup like that
you guys think a roots Eaton-m90 might be workable on a 3vz? because I might be able to get one, but I don't want to do anything until I have some idea as to the chances of it working (properly )
get it. make it work!

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post #35 of 73 Old 11-18-2009, 09:57 PM Thread Starter
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get it. make it work!
at the moment, it'd probably blow my downpipe off (which is HOPEFULLY being replaced by winter break)
I'm thinking to get it, and either work on it during winter break, or work on it during spring break (w00t party )
but I don't want to wind up with 500 bucks down the drain if it doesn't work lol

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post #36 of 73 Old 11-18-2009, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by 2wickedtoyz View Post
but it also looks like you've gained after 4k rpms. the boost kept going up to almost 20psi!!

what was the hp and tq numbers?

Tony sir you are amazing and i was woundering when you would do this

Due to the TRD SC, it is driven off the crank so the amount of airflow provided by the SC is determined by engine RPM. Combined with the turbo, since the 1MZ engine naturally loses its efficiency after 5000RPM or so, this in turn also puts out more exhaust energy per given amount of HP that is created by the engine (BSFC goes up, VE goes down). When exhaust energy is increased, then exhaust pressure against the exhaust valves increases as well, thus, reducing VE and the amount of air that the engine can ingest.

What happens is that boost pressure will automatically creep and keep rising because the TRD SC is trying to maintain a linear airflow curve. The 1MZ engine cannot ingest the air since it loses effiency up top naturally. If you check out the TurboMagazine twincharged MR6 (summary section), this defines their findings describing that the supercharger behaved like a "big cam" at upper RPM's. They didn't really know why it increased power up at high RPM at the time, but this was the reason. Boost kept rising because the TRD SC is trying to maintain a flat torque curve for an engine that has a falling torque curve. Imagine the TRD SC is going to ram in an extra 350 CFM of air into the engine at 6000RPM @ 6 PSI on top of what the turbo is pushing through (ie: 20PSI + 6 PSI); if the engine can't take in all that air, then the residual CFM becomes additional boost. Boost pressure automatically increases as RPM increases and as torque drops.

The goal for this twincharged setup is to prove a few things, mainly myths and misconceptions. The other goal is to achieve excellent throttle response and totally useable power (flat torque curve). I am sure you've heard about people saying that you must bypass the supercharger when twincharging. Or when folks say that the supercharger is restrictive at big power levels and so forth.

First of all, the supercharger cannot be physically restrictive.. It can create boost out of atmospheric air, so it is an air pump. If you feed say 10 PSI and 1000 CFM of air through the supercharger, it just adds another 350 CFM through it. But whenever we think about air pumps running in series, we think about restriction because you can only flow as much as the largest pump in the system. In my case, the largest "pump" in the system is my T51R turbo. So if the turbo can only allow 1000 CFM of total flow, and you are feeding this amount into the SC, it will not produce more than 1000 CFM -- not more that what the turbo can flow for.

The idea is to size a turbo big enough for the power goals, and then have the supercharger "clean up" the rest of the power curve. When I approached this twincharged setup, all the places I have been reading from (Mustang Cobra forums, etc...) and all my local buddies blatantly said that the supercharger hurts and kills top-end power. That's totally wrong... Even before I physically ran the setup, it sounded wrong in theory.

I managed to run my Camry up to 26 PSI with the supercharger and it actually made slightly more power than without it. As a result, I have gained tons of midrange and achieved a much flatter torque curve (flat torque curve = good) and a torque band that goes higher RPM (I will be posting better graphs once I get more data). My old record was 567 WHP @ 26 PSI, but I've easily matched that power at 24 PSI being twincharged. It eventually made 580 @ 26 PSI with one weak piston, showing a definite power gain despite feeding boost through the SC. The T51R turbo I have on my Camry can flow up to 800 HP with a turbine sized nicely even for a bigger motor, so there was no restriction in my setup at all.

The supercharger's job was to do these few things:

- improve low-end power right off idle --> success

- improve full boost spool time for my big turbo --> success (reduced spool time by 1000RPM)

- maintain the same level as single turbo, showing that feeding boost through the TRD SC is not a restriction at all --> success (SC gave more power instead, probably due to a shift in compressor efficiency from the turbo)

- improve boost response within spool range (reduce "boost lag" between shifts or during a roll-on racing situation --> success (the motor literally behaved like a 4.0L motor instead and spooled the turbo like its not even there at higher RPM's)

- improve horsepower curve and extend powerband --> success (my torque now wants to stay much flatter, therefore, maintaining a linear HP curve with the SC)


So really, the twincharged setup is to allow quick useable power right from the get-go, but without tire shredding torque. Totally mimicking what a true useable powerband should be, along with much better throttle response everywhere. My old twin turbo setup was considered a failure because all it did was make shit loads of torque, and it was totally unuseable (unless it was a truck and I want to tow stuff with it). The old TT setup looked great on paper because I managed to get full spool at 3200RPM and over 500+ lbft of torque, yet, the boost took a while to fully come in (lacks throttle response), and there was no resolution in the powerband (either on/off, not manageable and falls off up top).


............... The Camry gets groceries FAST ...............

Last edited by Tony the Tiger; 11-18-2009 at 11:00 PM.
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post #37 of 73 Old 11-18-2009, 10:08 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Tony the Tiger View Post
Due to the TRD SC, it is driven off the crank so the amount of airflow provided by the SC is determined by engine RPM. Combined with the turbo, since the 1MZ engine naturally loses its efficiency after 5000RPM or so, this in turn also puts out more exhaust energy per given amount of HP that is created by the engine (BSFC goes up, VE goes down). When exhaust energy is increased, then exhaust pressure against the exhaust valves increases as well, thus, reducing VE and the amount of air that the engine can ingest.

What happens is that boost pressure will automatically "creep" and keep rising because the TRD SC is trying to "maintain" a linear airflow curve, yet the engine cannot ingest the air since it loses effiency up top naturally. If you check out the TurboMagazine twincharged MR6 (summary section), this defines their findings describing that the supercharger behaved like a "big cam" at upper RPM's. They didn't really know why it increased power up at high RPM at the time, but this was the reason. Boost kept rising because the TRD SC is trying to maintain a flat torque curve for an engine that has a falling torque curve. Imagine the TRD SC is going to ram in 350 CFM of air into the engine at 6000RPM @ 6 PSI, if the engine can't take that in, then the residual "CFM" becomes additional boost.

The goal for this twincharged setup is to prove a few things, mainly myths and misconceptions. The other goal is to achieve excellent throttle response and totally useable power (flat torque curve). I am sure you've heard about people saying that you must "bypass" the supercharger when twincharging. Or when folks say that the supercharger is restrictive at big power levels and so forth.

First of all, the supercharger cannot be "restrictive".. It can create boost out of atmospheric air, so it is an air pump. But whenever we think about air pumps running in series, we think about restriction because you can only flow as much as the largest pump in the system. In my case, the largest "pump" in the system is my T51R turbo.

The idea is to size a turbo big enough for the power goals, and then have the supercharger "clean up" the rest of the power curve. When I approached this twincharged setup, all the places I have been reading from (Mustang Cobra forums, etc...) and all my local buddies blatantly said that the supercharger will kill top-end power. That's totally wrong... Even before I physically ran the setup, it sounded wrong in theory.

I managed to run my Camry up to 26 PSI with the supercharger and it actually made slightly more power than without it. YET I have gained tons of midrange and achieved a much flatter torque curve (flat torque curve = good). I used to make 567 WHP @ 26 PSI, but I've easily matched that power at 24 PSI. It eventually made 580 @ 26 PSI with one weak piston, showing a definite power gain. The T51R turbo I have on my Camry can flow up to 800 HP, and a turbine sized perfectly even for a bigger motor, there was no restriction in my setup at all.

The supercharger's job was to do these few things:

- improve low-end power right off idle --> success

- improve full boost spool time for my big turbo --> success (reduced spool time by 1000RPM)

- maintain the same type of power I had without the SC, showing that feeding boost through the TRD SC is not a restriction at all --> success (SC gave more power instead)

- improve boost response within spool range (reduce "boost lag" between shifts or during a roll-on racing situation --> success (the motor literally behaved like a 4.0L motor instead and spooled the turbo like its not even there at higher RPM's)

- improve horsepower curve and extend powerband --> success (my torque now wants to stay much flatter, therefore, maintaining a linear HP curve with the SC)


So really, the twincharged setup is to allow quick useable power right from the get-go, but without tire shredding torque. Totally mimicking what a true useable powerband should be. My old twin turbo setup was considered a failure because all it did was make shit loads of torque, and it was totally unseable unless it was a truck and I want to tow stuff with it.
yeh, that physics part of that works out perfectly; I figure that the blower will help out with my top-end power, and if I need more power (which is likely ), I could get a turbo mounted as well

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post #38 of 73 Old 11-18-2009, 11:04 PM
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yeh, that physics part of that works out perfectly; I figure that the blower will help out with my top-end power, and if I need more power (which is likely ), I could get a turbo mounted as well
Anyway, I editted my post (fixed some typos, and gave more detail).. If you can re-quote my message again, that would be great on the post above

The supercharger will be compounded, and that is by far the best setup to go with. Not sequentially, and no need to bypass it by any means. I think recently, Bee-R in Japan, already built a twincharged Silvia with the same concept.

A lot of the twincharged setups out there are done wrong, always thinking that you use the supercharger to spool the turbo, and bypasses it with tons of useless valves and butterflies.


............... The Camry gets groceries FAST ...............
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post #39 of 73 Old 11-18-2009, 11:27 PM
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and we learn even more yet from Tony


can't wait to take a ride in the 3.3L version

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post #40 of 73 Old 11-19-2009, 06:10 AM
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one day..one day i'll go for that build lol

what are the chances that the supercharger will deteriorate faster due to the massive pressure from the turbo instead of feeding from atmospheric pressure? are there specifications what the supercharger can handle?

also, I assume the air into engine/block will run hotter with twincharge setup compared to just turbo...in case I'm right, is the FMIC able to do all the cooling or is meth/water injection part of the future plan.


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post #41 of 73 Old 11-19-2009, 07:54 AM
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one day..one day i'll go for that build lol

what are the chances that the supercharger will deteriorate faster due to the massive pressure from the turbo instead of feeding from atmospheric pressure? are there specifications what the supercharger can handle?

also, I assume the air into engine/block will run hotter with twincharge setup compared to just turbo...in case I'm right, is the FMIC able to do all the cooling or is meth/water injection part of the future plan.

I've ran my Acura 1.6EL in twincharged state (Jackson Racing SC with a Toyota CT12 turbo) for about 2.5 years now and so far, the supercharger is still perfect. Mind you I've done this setup with a very high mileage motor and a high mileage supercharger (I had the Jackson Racing SC back in '99), so I twincharged it when the blower had over 200000kms on it and a motor with 220000km. Boost wasn't as high as the Camry because the 1.6EL was only running 14-16 PSI. So far so good though. My mom drives the car 99% of the time, so maybe the testing wasn't as thorough as I originally planned, but it is better than nothing...LOL

It may shorten the life of the SC, but as long as it isn't excessive pressure like 50+ PSI, I am sure the design of the SC can cope with 20-30 PSI of medium pressure. The supercharger works in the same manner with or without the turbo, so what I look at is the actual supercharger casing, gasket and mating joints to see if it can deal with the pressure. The bearings shouldn't go through more stress because the input/output pressures are identical with or without a turbo feeding it. The only thing I worry is the casing actually blowing apart, or enough expansion from the pressure that the rotor clearances may be affected and the supercharger casing ballooning or something.

For a twincharged setup like mine, the key is to run it low boost for the pulley. I am effectively getting 6-7 PSI of unintercooled air into the engine, so air temps are slightly hotter. Yet the gain in spool and turbo efficiency can offset the difference because the turbocharger is also producing lesser boost pressure at the compressor outlet (ie: to run 26 PSI at the engine, the turbo only needs to push 20 PSI and the SC pushes 6 PSI). So you can subtract the heat difference with a turbo pushing at 20 PSI minus the heat increase due to the 6 PSI of boost from the supercharger. It was very minimal as I only saw a maximum of 5-7 degC increase of IAT.

By the way, my 3MZ motor came in but there were quite a few differences between the 3MZ and our 1MZ.. It may be too much work, so I may have to hold up the 3MZ project and use it as parts (swap block/head, etc..).


............... The Camry gets groceries FAST ...............
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post #42 of 73 Old 11-19-2009, 10:28 AM
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^ Send a message to Gabe.....He's done several 3MZ/1MZ head setup's and knows the differences and what needs to be done.

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post #43 of 73 Old 11-19-2009, 01:38 PM
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post #44 of 73 Old 11-19-2009, 03:04 PM
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lol he owns a tuning/performance shop maybe? just guessing

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post #45 of 73 Old 11-19-2009, 03:12 PM
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lol he owns a tuning/performance shop maybe? just guessing
I thought that whore house we went to he owned?

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