Hybrid 12v battery jumping - Page 10 - Toyota Nation Forum : Toyota Car and Truck Forums
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post #136 of 240 Old 09-12-2013, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by lincolnshibuya View Post
Autozone sells AGM for $169 for my LS.

I'd check out BMW batteries too, they're also in the trunk with vent hose.
Can you please mention the make and model of the AutoZone battery? Thanks.
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post #137 of 240 Old 09-12-2013, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by srivenkat View Post
Can you please mention the make and model of the AutoZone battery? Thanks.
http://www.autozone.com/autozone/par...9465_728971_0_
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post #138 of 240 Old 09-12-2013, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Ron AKA View Post
However, these batteries in the trunk of our hybrid are not conventional flooded lead acid batteries. That is why Toyota charges $400 for them. They are either Gel type or AGM. The gel type as the name suggests are filled with a gel instead of a liquid. When they are recharged slowly the gas produced is absorbed by the gel and all is good. However when you charge them too fast (greater than 5 amps), they produce more gas than can be absorbed by the gel, and bubbles form in the gel. This deprives the grid of electrolyte and effectively reduces the capacity of the battery permanently.
No issues with that, but we aren't talking about prolonged high current charging. We are talking about 5 minutes to simply get the car computer running. A lot of motorbikes have AGM batteries and people jump start them without issue.
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post #139 of 240 Old 09-12-2013, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by srivenkat View Post
As a lay person, the understanding I got from the priuschat post was that there's more and more expensive stuff to be fried by a wrong connection in the Prius/TCH than in conventional vehicles...
No more different than any other hybrid car. It's the electronics that will get fried, there's a lot more on a hybrid than a conventional car.
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post #140 of 240 Old 09-12-2013, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by adprom View Post
No issues with that, but we aren't talking about prolonged high current charging.
Which it appears the vehicle charging system likely does to a discharged battery. If I have to jumpstart, I would jump with the negative cable disconnected and left disconnected until the car is home and I am able to put the battery on a charger. I would first charge the battery and then connect the negative terminal back. This all theory though...
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post #141 of 240 Old 09-12-2013, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by adprom View Post
No issues with that, but we aren't talking about prolonged high current charging. We are talking about 5 minutes to simply get the car computer running. A lot of motorbikes have AGM batteries and people jump start them without issue.
However when you jump a dead battery, it is taking maximum possible charge during that time, especially if you leave the engine of the boosting vehicle running. There is no back voltage from the battery, so current is maximized. The problem as I understand it is the charging rate, not the duration. You have a chemical absorption reaction that has to take place to avoid bubbles in the gel, or venting of the AGM.

Yes, people do lots of things with their vehicles, but that does not make it good for the vehicles, nor do the die (right away).

I replaced my motorcycle battery this year and had a choice of a conventional vented battery or an AGM at about $15 more. When I asked to see the specs the AGM had lower capacity. I passed on the AGM, and promised myself I would take better care of the standard battery, and in the mean time enjoy more battery capacity. I see the rants about how great the AGM motorcycle batteries are, but I'm failing to see those benefits. I would suggest more of a fad and heavy sales promotion than anything else. In industry VRLA batteries have a rated life of 10 years. However actual experience shows they only last 3-5 years. So not only is Toyota selling us a very expensive battery, they probably will not last as long as a standard lead acid!

Google VRLA battery life cycle or failure mode and you will see what the issue is - venting, drying out, and no way to replenish the electrolyte.

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post #142 of 240 Old 09-12-2013, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by srivenkat View Post
Which it appears the vehicle charging system likely does to a discharged battery. If I have to jumpstart, I would jump with the negative cable disconnected and left disconnected until the car is home and I am able to put the battery on a charger. I would first charge the battery and then connect the negative terminal back. This all theory though...
Interesting thought. Not sure the car will run with the negative disconnected. If it did, I would worry about how well the voltage would be regulated. The battery operates as a buffer on the 12 volt system.

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post #143 of 240 Old 09-12-2013, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Ron AKA View Post
The problem as I understand it is the charging rate, not the duration. You have a chemical absorption reaction that has to take place to avoid bubbles in the gel, or venting of the AGM.

Yes, people do lots of things with their vehicles, but that does not make it good for the vehicles, nor do the die (right away).
That's the point right, it is the charging rate but it does need to be for at least a half decent period. With a jump start, the current will be the voltage difference divided by the internal resistance of the batteries. So time is still a factor before any significant damage is incurred. Of course, wouldn't leave it on a high current battery charger for hours (I have an 8 stage battery charger, configurable with MC/Car modes just for this purpose - MC mode is probably appropriate on any AGM battery).

Given toyota themselves say jump starting is fine, I can't help but think that the risk is being overstated.

I'm not sure that the hybrid system will charge the battery to charge too quickly killing it - that would be a design flaw.
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post #144 of 240 Old 09-13-2013, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by adprom View Post
That's the point right, it is the charging rate but it does need to be for at least a half decent period. With a jump start, the current will be the voltage difference divided by the internal resistance of the batteries. So time is still a factor before any significant damage is incurred. Of course, wouldn't leave it on a high current battery charger for hours (I have an 8 stage battery charger, configurable with MC/Car modes just for this purpose - MC mode is probably appropriate on any AGM battery).
I have been using the car mode on the CTEK MUS 4.3 I have, will use the MC mode next time.

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Given toyota themselves say jump starting is fine, I can't help but think that the risk is being overstated.
If what you mentioned above makes scientific sense, then perhaps you could be right with the jumpstart.

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I'm not sure that the hybrid system will charge the battery to charge too quickly killing it - that would be a design flaw.
How else would you explain the ruining of the supposedly deep-cyclable AGM batteries with just one or two deep cycles (it has been seen that the Prius charging system puts out current as high as 50/60 Amps).

Either it's the jumpstart or the subsequent charging by the hybrid system or both.
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post #145 of 240 Old 09-13-2013, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Ron AKA View Post
Interesting thought. Not sure the car will run with the negative disconnected. If it did, I would worry about how well the voltage would be regulated. The battery operates as a buffer on the 12 volt system.
Does it then mean a "dead" battery does still have a buffer role to play once the car is jump-started. I will ask on Priuschat to see if anyone had started and run the vehicle with the battery disconnected.
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post #146 of 240 Old 09-13-2013, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by srivenkat View Post
Does it then mean a "dead" battery does still have a buffer role to play once the car is jump-started[?]
Possibly. I wouldn't assume that it would regulate voltage without having a battery attached. I would be afraid of frying the entire 12V system.
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post #147 of 240 Old 09-13-2013, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by srivenkat View Post
How else would you explain the ruining of the supposedly deep-cyclable AGM batteries with just one or two deep cycles (it has been seen that the Prius charging system puts out current as high as 50/60 Amps).

Either it's the jumpstart or the subsequent charging by the hybrid system or both.
3-5% of all car batteries fail in the first week or so. I had 2 new batteries in a row on a previous vehicle replaced on warranty because they dropped a cell in the first couple of days. It happens.
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post #148 of 240 Old 09-13-2013, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by adprom View Post
I'm not sure that the hybrid system will charge the battery to charge too quickly killing it - that would be a design flaw.
I agree. However, when you jump start you bypass the built in charging control. Purely anecdotal, but I've followed a few of these, "my battery is dead" issues on line. They boost, and charge, and almost always end up replacing the battery. The issues are not unrelated of course because why was the battery dead in the first place. Bad battery already? Possible. However in this case the OP left it for a month. I think a good battery would last that long. However it did not, so yes the battery is already a little suspect. My guess is that with a careful recharge and then disconnecting the negative terminal the next time it is being left, would squeeze a few more years of life out of the battery. On the other hand giving it a rapid boost or charge may put it over the edge. I can see if you are stuck out on the road you are kind of between a rock and a hard place. I think I would borrow a conventional battery to get home and then charge the battery slowly. But, I can see someone being stuck and taking a chance on boosting it.

In this case I presume the vehicle was stored somewhere there is power and it would be easy to charge it properly. Perhaps the OP will post what the outcome was.

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post #149 of 240 Old 09-13-2013, 10:32 AM
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I thought that disconnecting the battery causes a lot of computer problems.

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post #150 of 240 Old 09-13-2013, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Curtis_TX View Post
I thought that disconnecting the battery causes a lot of computer problems.
I suspect largely internet myth.

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