TIRES thread - Page 4 - Toyota Nation Forum : Toyota Car and Truck Forums
Camry Hybrid Discussion area for the Toyota Camry Hybrid. Topics of discussion range from fuel economy, safety, modifications, performance all involving Americas favorite family car, the Toyota Camry.

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post #46 of 147 Old 06-08-2013, 01:55 PM
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I don't think it would be safe to swap 17" tires for the XLE to 16" wheels and tires. Cars today near all include overdrive where the engine spins slower reducing friction and helping the miles per gallon. If you installed the shorter 16" wheels and tires on a car that's designed for 17" ones, the mpg would drop significantly.

A exaggeration of that would be a car driving along in 3rd gear, then for some reason it had to drive in 2nd gear all the time. The engine spins much faster increasing the engine friction and using more gas.
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post #47 of 147 Old 06-08-2013, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron AKA View Post
3. The LE uses steel wheels while the XLE uses larger cast aluminum. Could the cast aluminum be heavier? That would be my guess. However you would have to weigh them to know. Significant?
Personally, I would be quite surprised to learn that the aluminum wheels are heavier than their steel counterparts. "Alloy wheels" came into being because they are lighter, and therefore have less unsprung weight, which leads to better handling and a better ride. Their popularity for aesthetic reasons (now probably the main reason for their being offered) came later.
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post #48 of 147 Old 06-08-2013, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by restamp View Post
Personally, I would be quite surprised to learn that the aluminum wheels are heavier than their steel counterparts. "Alloy wheels" came into being because they are lighter, and therefore have less unsprung weight, which leads to better handling and a better ride. Their popularity for aesthetic reasons (now probably the main reason for their being offered) came later.
Like I say you would have to weigh them to see. I don't find them particularly light when I rotate them. My guess is that the complete wheel tire assembly on the LE weighs less than the one the XLR. More wheel, wider wheel, and I would guess more weight.

To Whitesands, Wheel size is misleading. In almost every case as the wheel size gets bigger a lower profile tire is put on them keeping them exactly the same in outside diameter of the mounted tire. That is the case with the Camry. That lets Toyota use them interchangeably on the LE and XLE without any change to the overall drive ratio or speedometer accuracy etc.

Larger wheels is just a cosmetic issue. Generally they make the complete wheel heavier as you are substituting aluminum for rubber. Since they have less rubber they tend to be rougher. All things considered the 16" wheels and tires on the LE likely provide a better ride, and could give better mileage. Another case of functionality being sacrificed for cosmetics.

2012 Camry XLE Hybrid
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post #49 of 147 Old 06-08-2013, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron AKA View Post
Some things to consider:

1. The EPA rates the LE at 41 mpg combined, and the XLE at 40 mpg combined. The EPA do not report down to the .1 of a mpg, and round off. The actual test results could have been 40.5 for the LE and 40.4 for the XLE. In other words the difference could be simple round off and is insignificant compared to the measurement error.

2. The only obvious difference in the models is the wheel and tire size. There is a small weight difference but that is probably insignificant. .
EPA city is 43 LE, 40 XLE

The XLE weighs 90 lbs more than LE, per Toyota brocure

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post #50 of 147 Old 06-08-2013, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron AKA View Post
Like I say you would have to weigh them to see. I don't find them particularly light when I rotate them. My guess is that the complete wheel tire assembly on the LE weighs less than the one the XLR. More wheel, wider wheel, and I would guess more weight.

To Whitesands, Wheel size is misleading. In almost every case as the wheel size gets bigger a lower profile tire is put on them keeping them exactly the same in outside diameter of the mounted tire. That is the case with the Camry. That lets Toyota use them interchangeably on the LE and XLE without any change to the overall drive ratio or speedometer accuracy etc.

Larger wheels is just a cosmetic issue. Generally they make the complete wheel heavier as you are substituting aluminum for rubber. Since they have less rubber they tend to be rougher. All things considered the 16" wheels and tires on the LE likely provide a better ride, and could give better mileage. Another case of functionality being sacrificed for cosmetics.
The XLE wheels is 17" vs 16" for the LE. I think the 17" wheels is also wider than the 16". Thus the 17" wheels have larger volume than the 16". So the lighter aluminum might not be enough to compensate the increased volume weight. The 17" wheels are probably heavier because of this.

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post #51 of 147 Old 06-08-2013, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron AKA View Post
Some things to consider:

1. The EPA rates the LE at 41 mpg combined, and the XLE at 40 mpg combined. The EPA do not report down to the .1 of a mpg, and round off. The actual test results could have been 40.5 for the LE and 40.4 for the XLE. In other words the difference could be simple round off and is insignificant compared to the measurement error.

4. The EPA tracks self reported mpg. Currently the average for the 2012 models is 40.2 for the LE, and 38.5 for the XLE. If you rounded them off like EPA does for the test data, that would be 40 for the LE and 39 for the XLE. It would seem that the very slight advantage of the LE is validated. Could it also be the those who buy the LE are more cost conscious and drive differently than those who buy the XLE? Or, is it the smaller wheels and higher profile tires on the LE?

The bottom line is that I think you would be chasing shadows trying to replicate the EPA test results, especially if you use cast aluminum tires instead of steel, and if you don't use exactly the same tires as they used for the EPA test. It is also very costly to change wheels and tires. You are unlikely to ever make your money back on improved fuel economy if you even get any. Best bet would be to keep the wheels and when the tires wear out do some research and buy the most fuel efficient version currently available. Tires are improving all the time.
There are many forum Camry Hybrid owners reporting their MPG here. I got the impression the LE is consistently beating the XLE in MPG. And the difference seems is not just 1 MPG.

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post #52 of 147 Old 06-08-2013, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by tzeshan View Post
There are many forum Camry Hybrid owners reporting their MPG here. I got the impression the LE is consistently beating the XLE in MPG. And the difference seems is not just 1 MPG.
I have not noticed this difference in reports. I think Whitesands is the current mileage champ here and I recall he has an XLE... However, mileage reports are very highly dependent on the type of use the driver puts the vehicle to. My mileage is below EPA. however I drive in a cold climate for 6 months of the year, and our typical drive in winter is very short in distance. The vehicle barely gets a chance to warm up. In summer it does much better. You have to consider whether results are just cherry picked or are for a full year, and was that year a typical year?

To make any conclusion you would have to compare a number of drivers with the LE to another number of drivers with the XLE. The EPA site lets you do that. See link below. Currently there are 16 reporting for the LE compared to 27 for the XLE. Those were the numbers I used above in my post.

EPA LE to XLE Comparison 2012

Even with that number reporting I would be hesitant to form a conclusion. Notice the individual results and how widely they vary, and how much they overlap. Also notice that there is one report of 29 mpg for the XLE. That one seems a little off base. If you took that out they would likely move much closer together. Personally I would not invest a nickel trying to chase such a small difference.

2012 Camry XLE Hybrid

Last edited by Ron AKA; 06-08-2013 at 07:22 PM.
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post #53 of 147 Old 06-08-2013, 07:35 PM
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Guess I was wrong. I had no idea the aspect ratio made so much difference in height. I see the oem Energy Saver tires that come with the LE are 3 pounds lighter each than a XLE with the MXV4 Primacy tires.

It amazed me how close the sizes of the mxv4 on the XLE are compared the LE with the Energy Saver a/s tires.

check this out

XLE tires

215/55/17 mxv4 primacy

23 pounds, 7.2" wide, 26.3 high, 791 revs per mile

LE tires

215/60/16 mxv4 primacy

24 pounds, width 7.1, 26.1 high, 797 revs

215/60/16 energy saver a/s - OEM tires on the LE

21 lbs. width n/a, 26.1 high, 796 revs

Last edited by WhiteSands; 06-09-2013 at 05:07 AM.
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post #54 of 147 Old 06-08-2013, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Ron AKA View Post
Like I say you would have to weigh them to see. I don't find them particularly light when I rotate them. My guess is that the complete wheel tire assembly on the LE weighs less than the one the XLR. More wheel, wider wheel, and I would guess more weight.
I see your point, Ron. Now you've got me curious. It would be interesting if someone with an XLE and an LE would weigh their wheels and post the results so we'd have a definitive answer.
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post #55 of 147 Old 06-08-2013, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Ron AKA View Post
I have not noticed this difference in reports. I think Whitesands is the current mileage champ here and I recall he has an XLE... However, mileage reports are very highly dependent on the type of use the driver puts the vehicle to. My mileage is below EPA. however I drive in a cold climate for 6 months of the year, and our typical drive in winter is very short in distance. The vehicle barely gets a chance to warm up. In summer it does much better. You have to consider whether results are just cherry picked or are for a full year, and was that year a typical year?

To make any conclusion you would have to compare a number of drivers with the LE to another number of drivers with the XLE. The EPA site lets you do that. See link below. Currently there are 16 reporting for the LE compared to 27 for the XLE. Those were the numbers I used above in my post.

EPA LE to XLE Comparison 2012

Even with that number reporting I would be hesitant to form a conclusion. Notice the individual results and how widely they vary, and how much they overlap. Also notice that there is one report of 29 mpg for the XLE. That one seems a little off base. If you took that out they would likely move much closer together. Personally I would not invest a nickel trying to chase such a small difference.
I reviewed the EPA numbers. Now I think the MPG difference between XLE and LE is not that big as given by the EPA. The difference is mainly due to the rolling resistance because the 17" tire is wider. It make larger contact area with the road surface. At low speed the rolling friction/resistance is higher than high speed.

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Last edited by tzeshan; 06-08-2013 at 10:19 PM.
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post #56 of 147 Old 06-09-2013, 12:42 AM
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I agree. Mostly an issue of rolling resistance due to the wider tire tread and softer compound on the 17". Also some extra rotational inertia and vehicle weight, both of which affect city mpg the most.

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post #57 of 147 Old 06-09-2013, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tzeshan View Post
The XLE wheels is 17" vs 16" for the LE. I think the 17" wheels is also wider than the 16". Thus the 17" wheels have larger volume than the 16". So the lighter aluminum might not be enough to compensate the increased volume weight. The 17" wheels are probably heavier because of this.
The XLEs are wider. So they have a larger contact patch meaning more friction if the two types of rubber are comparable. I think Ron is right though, use the ones you have now and buy energy efficient ones in 3/4 years and they will probably be even more efficient.

I've got the LE. And FE was one of the reasons I chose the LE.





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post #58 of 147 Old 06-09-2013, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteSands View Post
LE tires

215/60/16 mxv4 primacy

24 pounds, width 7.1, 26.1 high, 797 revs

215/60/16 energy saver a/s - OEM tires on the LE

21 lbs. width n/a, 26.1 high, 796 revs
Makes you wonder what they leave out of the Energy Saver tire to save 3 lbs. 3 lbs of tread rubber that you do not get to wear out on the Energy Saver?

2012 Camry XLE Hybrid
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post #59 of 147 Old 06-09-2013, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Ron AKA View Post
Makes you wonder what they leave out of the Energy Saver tire to save 3 lbs. 3 lbs of tread rubber that you do not get to wear out on the Energy Saver?
When I look here...


http://www.michelinman.com/tire-sele...ails#techspecs


It says the Energy Saver is 22.8 lbs.
My tire is a 94S, and they do make it in this size with other numbers

Also, my tire is a 205X65R16, not a 215/60

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post #60 of 147 Old 06-09-2013, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteSands View Post
Guess I was wrong. I had no idea the aspect ratio made so much difference in height. I see the oem Energy Saver tires that come with the LE are 3 pounds lighter each than a XLE with the MXV4 Primacy tires.

It amazed me how close the sizes of the mxv4 on the XLE are compared the LE with the Energy Saver a/s tires.

check this out

XLE tires

215/55/17 mxv4 primacy

23 pounds, 7.2" wide, 26.3 high, 791 revs per mile

LE tires

215/60/16 mxv4 primacy

24 pounds, width 7.1, 26.1 high, 797 revs

215/60/16 energy saver a/s - OEM tires on the LE

21 lbs. width n/a, 26.1 high, 796 revs
My tire size is P205/65R16 94S, not as shown above.
Per

http://www.michelinman.com/tire-sele...ails#techspecs

It is 22.8 lbs. 26.5 high and 786 revs per mile

Perhaps the lower revs per mile is contributing to the higher mileage of the LE, along with lighter car?

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