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post #76 of 272 Old 09-15-2013, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazmondo View Post
wow some wonderful input.
well tell me if im doing something wrong here first off im gonna revert fuel from 95 to 90 and change oil to 5-20 or should it be higher and lastly im gonna hav my combustion chamber cleaned professionally and take out that nasty carbon deposit out of the engine.
any other suggestions.
On the gas use the octane recommended in your owners manual. No need for any higher octane. There is nothing wrong with 0w20 oil. 5w20 should be a little cheaper, but isn't going to change anything. 0w20 is better if you can get it at a reasonable cost.

I think it would be very expensive and likely a total waste of money to pay someone to disassemble the engine and clean the combustion chambers. I've seen nothing in the symptoms you describe that would suggest you have a carbon problem. If you are concerned then use an additive in your gas that contains polyether amine (PEA). Gumout Regane Complete Fuel System Cleaner is a good example that contains about 35% PEA. It will clean your engine over time, but carbon in your engine is not causing the noise.

2012 Camry XLE Hybrid
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post #77 of 272 Old 09-15-2013, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Jazmondo View Post
timing gear assembly thats sounds pretty expensive fix could it really be he reason and how can i make sure.
I would take a copy of the technical service bulletin to your Toyota dealership and ask to discuss it with the serviced manager (not the service representative who typically is not a mechanic). It would be helpful if you watched the following video first, so you will understand what is being discussed.


This video is rather crude, but it does show you what the parts inside look like.


About the only thing I can see is that somehow the VVTi vanes are "hunting" and possibly banging back and forth in their allowed travel during start up. That is what you should discuss with the service manager, and how it could be fixed. Perhaps all it needs is a cleaning. But most garages are now parts replacers and not actual fixers. However it is worth discussing. They should know why they fail. The problem is that at the rates they charge per hour, they cannot economically do much fixing.

The other possibility is just to ignore the "problem". It sounds very temporary, and is likely not doing damage. Again something to discuss with the service manager.

If the service manager thinks the issue could be just that it needs a cleaning, you could try and find a high detergent diesel engine oil and use it for a couple of oil changes to see if it helps. That is probably a real long shot, but at least gives you some hope if you decide to just "live with it".

Chevron Delo 400 Synthetic 0w30 would be a possible example.

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Last edited by Ron AKA; 09-15-2013 at 11:45 AM.
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post #78 of 272 Old 09-15-2013, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
How fat is the guy who shot that video, to lose breath from getting out of the seat and taking 4 steps?

Anyhow. Buddy, it's exactly what I said. Sticky lifters. Makes terrible noise.
I start not liking engine oil you used in Jordan.
Also, keep in mind. You MUST gun that car ever so often. If you barely move around, chasing good mpg, you WILL have carbon build up all over engine and exhaust. Carbon must be BURNT OUT RUTHLESSLY. your cat will be next.

2 cans of seafoam, 1 in, drive for 200 miles, drain, replace oil(just use any cheap oil in your weight, and do not use 0W20), 2nd can in, drive for about 500 miles, replace oil with decent 5W20.
Btw, Jordan is a hot country. If you want to build up good pressure, go for heavier weight oil. Go for 10W30 synthetic.
Also, you can go for broke, remove camshaft and "squeeze" lifters. After you soaked them overnight in good deposit cleaner, like kerosine.
FWIW, the 2.4l 2AZ-FXE engine does NOT have hydraulic lifters, but a 'shim-bucket' valvetrain design - the valve lash is set by using different thickness 'shims' to obtain the specified tappet-to-cam clearance. While this design can get noisy, the noise level will not be notably reduced after build-up of engine oil pressure - and the only 'cure' is to replace the valve shims to get the clearance to spec.

To the original poster's problem - one item to determine is how quickly you're building oil pressure, possibly using a direct-reading gauge spliced in via a 'T'. The car is old enough to have issues with the oil pump - these can come from high loads of grit that is likely present in your environment. If you're slow in building up pressure, address the root cause (could be oil pump, could be pickup, could be pressure relief valve - or excessive bearing clearances somewhere. Problem could also be something as simple/stupid as an oil filter with bad/missing drainback valve.

Last edited by Frodo65; 09-15-2013 at 12:46 PM.
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post #79 of 272 Old 09-15-2013, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protech View Post
For the record, the 2009 Camry has a 2AZ based engine, which does NOT have hydraulic lifters. Starting in 2012, the TCH is equipped with a 2AR based engine, which does. That may be the reason behind a different oil pump, but I am not sure until I check further.
Your are correct, I forgot the '12, 2AR-FXE engine has the new hydraulic lifters with the roller rockers.
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post #80 of 272 Old 09-15-2013, 05:01 PM
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OK, my last post on this issue...

Again, the TSB in question has a noise that only lasts about 1/2 second and does not effect in the least the way the car runs. The VVT gear is supposed to rotate to max retard on shut down, and there is a hardened steel pin that engages to lock the gear in that position until the engine starts and the oil pressure unseats the pin and unlocks the gear. If the pin sticks or breaks, the gear then rattles extremely briefly until the system starts to operate. The gears have a special type fastener on them to hold them together and cannot be disassembled. I have done it with a chisel and hammer on one that was no good, but then they are REALLY no good! If the gear is affected by that problem, there is no recourse but to replace it.

Ron AKA is correct, when the OP stated it was misfiring, I read into it that the CEL was on, which is not mentioned. But that got me started thinking some more along the lines I stated. On and ICE, if the fuel has drained down as I suggested, the car just spins and doesn't start. After a few seconds of cranking, the operator generally quits. But on the TCH, the ECU is in control. It will spin the engine for something 20 seconds before it quits and sets a code. In the fuel deprivation I mentioned, the ecu is causing the engine to be spun over, but it is only partially running until the fuel pressure comes up, and then it smooths out.

I would want to hook a laptop to one while it was doing it, or a pressure gauge or both, but IMO that is the only thing that fits the symptom.

'Nuff said.
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post #81 of 272 Old 09-15-2013, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazmondo View Post
wow some wonderful input.
well tell me if im doing something wrong here first off im gonna revert fuel from 95 to 90 and change oil to 5-20 or should it be higher and lastly im gonna hav my combustion chamber cleaned professionally and take out that nasty carbon deposit out of the engine.
any other suggestions.
It's not your vehicle combustion chambers. It is lifters. Has none to do with combustion chambers. You do not have piston slap, it's no GM truck.
OP, don't waste time and money. Not a single professional will clean lifters by pouring half a can of solvent down the fuel line. Cleaner must be IN OIL, or lifters must be removed.
We already told you before - why do you keep running car that is made for 87 grade gas on 95? But see, high octane knock would have been there all the time, not just at cold start.



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post #82 of 272 Old 09-15-2013, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protech View Post
OK, my last post on this issue...

Again, the TSB in question has a noise that only lasts about 1/2 second and does not effect in the least the way the car runs. The VVT gear is supposed to rotate to max retard on shut down, and there is a hardened steel pin that engages to lock the gear in that position until the engine starts and the oil pressure unseats the pin and unlocks the gear. If the pin sticks or breaks, the gear then rattles extremely briefly until the system starts to operate. The gears have a special type fastener on them to hold them together and cannot be disassembled. I have done it with a chisel and hammer on one that was no good, but then they are REALLY no good! If the gear is affected by that problem, there is no recourse but to replace it.

Ron AKA is correct, when the OP stated it was misfiring, I read into it that the CEL was on, which is not mentioned. But that got me started thinking some more along the lines I stated. On and ICE, if the fuel has drained down as I suggested, the car just spins and doesn't start. After a few seconds of cranking, the operator generally quits. But on the TCH, the ECU is in control. It will spin the engine for something 20 seconds before it quits and sets a code. In the fuel deprivation I mentioned, the ecu is causing the engine to be spun over, but it is only partially running until the fuel pressure comes up, and then it smooths out.

I would want to hook a laptop to one while it was doing it, or a pressure gauge or both, but IMO that is the only thing that fits the symptom.

'Nuff said.
Good to know. I thought, only Mazda had badly designed VVT actuators. Hey, you the man.



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post #83 of 272 Old 09-15-2013, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
...why do you keep running car that is made for 87 grade gas on 95?
FYI, fuel octane ratings are different between North America and Europe:

87 in the US is about the same as 91 in Europe
95 in Europe is about the same as 91 in the US

So it might not be as "bad" as it first appears.

I'm no expert here but my understanding of octane is that it's a knock retardant so if you put too high octane gas in your car, it will limit the explosiveness of the gasoline and cost more so it's mostly a waste of money in that case.
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post #84 of 272 Old 09-15-2013, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Frodo65 View Post
FWIW, the 2.4l 2AZ-FXE engine does NOT have hydraulic lifters, but a 'shim-bucket' valvetrain design - the valve lash is set by using different thickness 'shims' to obtain the specified tappet-to-cam clearance. While this design can get noisy, the noise level will not be notably reduced after build-up of engine oil pressure - and the only 'cure' is to replace the valve shims to get the clearance to spec.

To the original poster's problem - one item to determine is how quickly you're building oil pressure, possibly using a direct-reading gauge spliced in via a 'T'. The car is old enough to have issues with the oil pump - these can come from high loads of grit that is likely present in your environment. If you're slow in building up pressure, address the root cause (could be oil pump, could be pickup, could be pressure relief valve - or excessive bearing clearances somewhere. Problem could also be something as simple/stupid as an oil filter with bad/missing drainback valve.
To my knowledge, I had clear pictures of lifters in repair manual. Have my word, I had shimmed engine before, with what is called tappets, or shimmable buckets, and made sure it's not the case before posting. Says loud and clear "lifter" and has 2 holes at the camshaft mating lobe. Says nothing about shims. Unless it is a shim hidden inside the tappet bucket, and they simply call it lifter because they do not know what they talk about?




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post #85 of 272 Old 09-15-2013, 10:52 PM
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Can anyone also explain, what FWIW means?



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post #86 of 272 Old 09-15-2013, 10:59 PM
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ukrkoz, yeah, some people do refer to them as lifters for the sake of simpllicity. The holes you see in the side of the bucket are to make removal of the shim easier...after depressing the valve, you can hit that hole with a blast of air pressure, and ZING! out it comes! Having seen many, in the photo on the left you posted you can just see where the shim stops...there is a line at the bottom of the shiny edge of the shim.

FWIW = For what it's worth.
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post #87 of 272 Old 09-15-2013, 11:04 PM
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Ok, they are tappets. Not sure why they call them lifters. No, it does not have hydraulic pressure in it. Clearance is adjusted by replacing tappet. AKA lifter in Toyota terminology.

VALVE MECHANISM 1. General
The 2AZ-FXE engine is a high-expansion ratio Atkinson cycle engine of which the intake valve close timing has been significantly retarded by setting the VVT-i controller and intake camshaft to the retard side.
Each cylinder is equipped with 2 intake valves and 2 exhaust valves. Intake and exhaust efficiency has been increased due to the larger total port areas.
The valves are directly opened and closed by 2 camshafts. The intake and exhaust camshafts are driven by a chain. The VVT-i system used for the intake camshaft
is used to increase fuel economy, engine performance and reduce exhaust emissions. A shimless type valve lifter is used.

Along with the increased amount of valve lift, shimless valve lifters that provide a large cam contact surface are used. The adjustment of the valve clearance is accomplished by selecting and replacing the appropriate valve lifters.
Service Tip The valve lifters are available in 35 size in increment of 0.020 mm (0.008 in.), from 5.060 mm (0.199
in.) to 5.740 mm (0.226 in.). For details, refer to the 2007 Camry Hybrid Vehicle Repair Manual (Pub. No. RM02H0U).


Guess, nothing changed since 94 Corolla times. And it's costly PITA to adjust, as you have to buy entire set of tappets. And tech to do it for you.

So I rest ashamed here.




Last edited by ukrkoz; 09-15-2013 at 11:07 PM.
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post #88 of 272 Old 09-15-2013, 11:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protech View Post
ukrkoz, yeah, some people do refer to them as lifters for the sake of simpllicity. The holes you see in the side of the bucket are to make removal of the shim easier...after depressing the valve, you can hit that hole with a blast of air pressure, and ZING! out it comes! Having seen many, in the photo on the left you posted you can just see where the shim stops...there is a line at the bottom of the shiny edge of the shim.

FWIW = For what it's worth.
No, no shims. I miss good old lifters. Easy to maintain.



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post #89 of 272 Old 09-16-2013, 04:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
No, no shims. I miss good old lifters. Easy to maintain.
My '94 Corolla had various size shims similar to the '81 VW Rabbit diesel I had. Flip em over at 150K miles and you would be good to go for another 150K.
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post #90 of 272 Old 09-16-2013, 03:02 PM
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Ahhhh, screw shims and tappets. Nothing beats Honda's "by hand" adjustments. 30 minute job, for the cost of valve cover gasket. With Toyota, you either have to buy entire set of shims, and have camshaft removed to access tappet one at a time, or entire set of tappets for this engine. Either way, it's a pain as you have to get all the way down to tappets. Much more work to do. And something to go wrong along. Not friendly.



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