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post #1 of 19 Old 05-11-2014, 06:11 PM Thread Starter
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UPDATE: Michelin Pilot Sport tires

After dreadful uneven wear of my Continental ExtremeContact DW (Max Performance Summer tires), there was no option left, but to dispose of the tires. The disappointing part is, these expensive tires did not even last me 20,000 KM.

So I have ordered these new Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3 tires. Although, they are all-season ultra high-performance tires, they have beaten my Continental ExtremContact DW tires in every comparison (despite the latter being Max summer tires).

After great experience with the OEM XRS Michelin Pilot Primacy tires (grand touring summer tires) and the winter Michelin Alpin PA3 tires (winter tires), I am looking forward to going back to Michelin as I always had great experience with Michelin.

I will write a review of these tires as soon as I put them on next week.

My ratings:

OEM XRS Michelin Pilot Primacy (Grand touring summer tires): 3.5/5 stars
Kumho ECTSA ASX (Ultra high-performance all season tires): 1/5 stars (dreadful, avoid at all costs)
Continental ExtremContact DW (Max performance summer tires): 2.5/5
Michelin Alpin PA3 (Performance winter tires): 4/5 stars



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post #2 of 19 Old 05-11-2014, 06:54 PM
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Look forward to this! Out of curiosity, did you consider the Bridgestone RE970AS? Or were you just content with going back to Michelin tires as I see you've preferred them over the other 2.

I've been looking around at some tires as I'm probably going to replace my garbage Nokians' in a year or less, and those two I'm highly considering.

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post #3 of 19 Old 05-11-2014, 07:01 PM
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I have never had a "bad set" of michelins on any car ever.
Read the Tire Rack customer reviews to see what other peoples experiences have been, not completely reliable but you can read reviews of similar cars (similar to your car) and see how they work on that vehicle,

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post #4 of 19 Old 05-11-2014, 07:38 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Exage View Post
Look forward to this! Out of curiosity, did you consider the Bridgestone RE970AS? Or were you just content with going back to Michelin tires as I see you've preferred them over the other 2.

I've been looking around at some tires as I'm probably going to replace my garbage Nokians' in a year or less, and those two I'm highly considering.
Yes, Michelin seemed to have the best rating. Right now, they seem to be rated the best ultra high performance all-season tires. It even outperforms most of the summer tires on track tests. Although, I don't plan on using these tires in snow as my Michelin Alpin PA3 do a reasonable job there.

Second reason was, the size I am using (205/50/16) is not offered in Potenza tires other than the 760. However, looking at the tread pattern, the 970 don't seem to be as aggressive as the Michelin Pilot tires. You can see that by the size of the shoulder block difference.

Having also bad experiences with experimental approach (ExtremeContacts and the Kumhos), I am going with the safe approach this time.

My other considerations were:

Nitto NeoGen
Yokohama S. Drive

However, the Michelin Pilot tires seem to have the most consistently good reviews.

Quote:

I have never had a "bad set" of michelins on any car ever.
Read the Tire Rack customer reviews to see what other peoples experiences have been, not completely reliable but you can read reviews of similar cars (similar to your car) and see how they work on that vehicle,
Agreed. Michelin R&D seems to be somewhat magical. Having a high performance tire that does not roar, howl or even feel overly uncomfortable while outhandling the other tires, is quite amazing. I am looking forward to experiencing these brand new model Pilot tires and seeing how they do on all these metrics such as, handling, steering response, tirewall rigidity, daily driving comfort, braking etc,. The weight of these tires is pretty reasonable as well at 21 lbs. Not as light as my Continental DW (19 lbs), but certainly a lot lighter than the OEM Michelin Pilot Primacy tires (25 lbs).

I will write detailed review on all these.
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post #5 of 19 Old 05-11-2014, 11:57 PM Thread Starter
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Look forward to this! Out of curiosity, did you consider the Bridgestone RE970AS? Or were you just content with going back to Michelin tires as I see you've preferred them over the other 2.

I've been looking around at some tires as I'm probably going to replace my garbage Nokians' in a year or less, and those two I'm highly considering.
I think this should answer all your questions. Tire rack did a comparison test of 4 ultra high performance tires and both Potenza 970 and Michelin Pilot Sport 3 tires are in the comparison.

The Michelin Pilot Sport 3 was the winner in the comparison:

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/...y.jsp?ttid=177

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Tires tested:
Bridgestone Potenza RE970AS Pole Position (Ultra High Performance All-Season 245/40R18 97W)
What We Liked: Real world driving feel and handling balance at the limit
What We'd Improve: A modest increase in ultimate traction
Conclusion: A great driving tire on dry or wet roads
Continental ExtremeContact DWS (Ultra High Performance All-Season 245/40R18 97Y)

What We Liked: Comfort out on the road
What We'd Improve: Handling precision and steering response
Conclusion: Delivering a good blend of road manners and handling, with a reputation for very good winter traction
Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric All-Season (Ultra High Performance All-Season 245/40R18 93Y)

What We Liked: Good overall traction and quick steering response
What We'd Improve: Ride comfort and handling balance when driving at the limit
Conclusion: Perfect for the driver who prefers quick steering response
Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3 (W- or Y-Speed Rated) (Ultra High Performance All-Season 245/40R18 97Y)

What We Liked: Impressive traction, especially in the wet
What We'd Improve: Soften the ride slightly
Conclusion: An athletic tire that resets the performance standard for Ultra High Performance All-Season tires

Vehicles used:
2012 BMW F30 328i Sedan

Many drivers of performance coupes and sedans want the handling of an Ultra High Performance tire to help them enjoy the sporty nature of their car during the warm summer months, but also need the same tire to deliver mobility in cold winter weather, too. Tires from the Ultra High Performance All-Season category meet those needs, delivering a blend of dry, wet and winter traction along with reasonable road manners. Sometimes described as a jack-of-all-trades, but master of none, Ultra High Performance All-Season tire designs traditionally give up some dry and wet capability to gain traction in winter's slush and light snow. The tread design and compound characteristics that work best in summer's dry or wet weather typically aren't suited to wintertime traction and vice versa.

Michelin wants to change the game and minimize the seasonal performance trade-offs with their newest Ultra High Performance All-Season tire, the Pilot Sport A/S 3. Packed with new technology and lessons learned from other successful performance tire designs, the Pilot Sport A/S 3 is tuned to provide traction and handling in the dry and wet at levels approaching dedicated summer performance tires while also remaining competent in winter's slush and light snow.

To see if Michelin can raise the bar, we compared the Pilot Sport A/S 3 to the top three tires in the category: the Bridgestone Potenza RE970AS Pole Position which is top-rated in our consumer survey for dry traction, the Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric All-Season which has the highest survey rating for wet traction, and the Continental ExtremeContact DWS which leads the survey for winter weather capability. Our evaluation used 2012 BMW F30 328i sedans fitted with new, full tread depth 245/40R18 tires mounted on 18x8.0 wheels.


What We Learned on the Road

Our 4.1-mile loop of expressway, state highway and county roads provides a great variety of road conditions that include city and highway speeds, and smooth and coarse concrete, as well as new and patched asphalt. This route allows our team to experience noise comfort, ride quality and everyday handling, just as you would during your drive to school or work.

As a group these tires are perfect for the driver who enjoys driving and wants a tire that provides responsive handling and a true connection with the vehicle and the road. From behind the wheel the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3 delivered the best overall handling of the group, feeling very responsive and stable. It's hard to quantify, but the tactile feel through the steering wheel has much of the characteristic directness of a performance summer tire rather than the subtle imprecision of the typical Ultra High Performance All-Season tire. Our team also liked the handling of the Bridgestone Potenza RE970AS Pole Position, which had a great balance between steering effort and responsiveness. The Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric All-Season had very quick initial steering response, which made this tire feel almost too eager to change directions with small corrections. In comparison to the other three test tires, the Continental ExtremeContact DWS displayed noticeably slower steering response and subtle non-linearity in how it responded to larger inputs.

The payback for the ExtremeContact DWS' handling was better ride quality than the other tires as it rolled over the variety of road surfaces and bumps along our test route. The other three tires were closely grouped, with a small advantage going to the Potenza RE970AS Pole Position. This tire did a good job coping with the small- to medium-sized impacts, but larger hits were sometimes a little harsher than several others. In contrast, the Eagle F1 Asymmetric All-Season was a little firmer than the Bridgestone tire on smaller impacts, but felt a little more refined when it encountered bigger bumps. The Pilot Sport A/S 3 rode reasonably well, but let a little of the road's imperfections find their way to the driver through the seat and steering wheel.

Overall noise levels were moderate with all four tires. The ExtremeContact DWS was the best of the group, producing minimal impact boom and just a small amount of drone at low speeds, particularly on smooth asphalt. The Potenza RE970AS Pole Position and Pilot Sport A/S 3 were similar and close behind the ExtremeContact DWS, while the Eagle F1 Asymmetric All-Season produced a bit more tread and impact noise than the others.


What We Learned on the Test Track

Our 1/3-mile per lap test track course includes 90-degree street corners, a five-cone slalom and simulated expressway ramps. Run in both dry and wet conditions, the test track allows our team to experience the traction, responsiveness, handling and drivability normally only encountered during abrupt emergency avoidance maneuvers or competition events.

Out on the track, the Pilot Sport A/S 3's handling prowess stood out from the others, with excellent ultimate traction, precision and very good composure when driving at the limit. This tire is so good it tempts you to carry a little too much speed through the corners. It continues to hang on well even with a little too much slip angle, but begins to show some rapid treadwear when pushed too hard. The Eagle F1 Asymmetric All-Season and Potenza RE970AS Pole Position tied for overall lap time, but took slightly different paths to get there. The overall balance and composure of the Potenza RE970AS Pole Position yielded slightly higher subjective ratings from our team. The objective skidpad test showed the RE970AS had slightly higher overall cornering grip, but from the driver's seat the Eagle F1 Asymmetric felt as though it could hang on a little better. It was harder to balance at the peak though. The ExtremeContact DWS displayed good overall traction and predictability, but thanks in part to its more aggressive tread pattern (known to help winter traction) the handling just wasn't as crisp or precise as the other tires.

In the wet, the Pilot Sport A/S 3 again led the way with a clear advantage in overall wet traction, stability and predictability during abrupt maneuvers. The Eagle F1 Asymmetric All-Season posted the next fastest lap time, but was a little harder to control at the limit. The Potenza RE970AS Pole Position was just a little slower for overall lap time, but was easier to manage due to better communication of the tire's limits and capabilities. The ExtremeContact DWS rounded out the group with reasonable overall traction, but just didn't have the handling precision and ultimate cornering power to match the other three.


Driving In Winter Conditions

We will conduct subjective and objective tests in the snow and on the ice in the coming winter season.

In the meantime, you can review our past winter comparison test of the Bridgestone, Continental and Goodyear tires here.

Winter's arrival in South Bend during December '13 provided our first opportunity to experience the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3 in the snow on our test track. On well-packed snow the Pilot Sport A/S 3 could not quite match the traction of its predecessor (Pilot Sport A/S Plus), and when driving through several inches of loose snow its acceleration, braking and cornering traction was noticeably challenged. This appears to be the trade-off for the Pilot Sport A/S 3's exceptional dry and wet performance.

Stay tuned for our complete snow and ice test results coming later this winter.


Fuel Consumption Results

Our Real World Road Ride features a relatively flat 4.1-mile loop of 65 mph expressway, 55 mph state highway and 40 mph county roads along with two stop signs and one traffic light every lap. Our team drove each tire approximately 400 miles over the course of several days. Since we wanted to compare fuel consumption results that typical drivers would experience, our drivers were instructed to maintain the flow of traffic by running at the posted speed limits and sustain the vehicle's speed using cruise control whenever possible. They did not use hypermiling techniques to influence vehicle fuel economy.

Tire Line Test
MPG* Gallons/Year
@ 15,000 Miles % vs. Most Efficient
Bridgestone Potenza RE970AS Pole Position 27.9 537.6 -4.7%
Continental ExtremeContact DWS 29.0 517.2 -0.7%
Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric All-Season 29.2 513.7 --
Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3 28.4 528.2 -2.8%
*Our evaluation used Linear Logic ScanGauge II automotive computers to record fuel consumption, and Race Technology DL1 data loggers to record true distance travelled.


While none of the tires in this test were designed with low rolling resistance as a high priority, we did find a difference in observed vehicle fuel economy across the group. Based on our results the 1.3 mile per gallon difference between our lowest and highest observed fuel economy would result in an annual difference of almost 24 gallons of premium gasoline. At the current cost of $4.00/gallon, it would amount to an annual difference of nearly $96 for drivers driving 15,000 miles per year.

It's important to note our test's fuel consumption measurements follow consistent procedures designed to minimize variables that could influence the results, however they do not represent an exhaustive long-range fuel consumption study. While our procedures require the test vehicles in each convoy to run under the same prevailing conditions, the week-to-week differences in ambient temperatures, barometric pressures and wind speeds that we experience over a season of testing can influence vehicle fuel consumption and prevent the absolute mpg values of this test from being compared directly against those of others.

Larger differences in consumption between tires may indicate a difference that might be experienced on the road, while smaller differences should be considered equivalent. As they say, your mileage may vary.


Summary

Looking back over our test history reveals how far the ultimate handling capability of today's best Ultra High Performance All-Season tires has come. The level of refinement out on the road combined with impressive dry and wet traction across this group helps you make the most of your performance car.

Michelin has reset the performance standard for an all-season tire with their Pilot Sport A/S 3, which delivers impressive handling in both dry and wet conditions. And while not apparent during our short road evaluation, when running laps on our test track at the limit this tire showed a little more tread wear than the others tires. The Bridgestone Potenza RE970AS Pole Position is a pleasure to drive, with a satisfying feel in the steering wheel and good handling in dry and wet conditions. The Continental ExtremeContact DWS doesn't quite have the nimble feel of the others, but offers good ride quality and reasonable handling along with good overall traction. The Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric All-Season has a very distinct personality, and is well suited to the driver wanting crisp steering response and very good dry and wet traction.


Product Details

Bridgestone Potenza RE970AS Pole Position (Ultra High Performance All-Season): The Potenza RE970AS Pole Position is Bridgestone's flagship Ultra High Performance All-Season tire developed for drivers looking to combine high speed capability with all-season traction for sophisticated sports cars, sporty coupes and high performance sedans. The Potenza RE970AS Pole Position is designed to provide predictable handling, traction and control on dry and wet roads, as well as in light snow. Read more.

Continental ExtremeContact DWS (Ultra High Performance All-Season): The ExtremeContact DWS (DWS for Dry, Wet & Snow) is Continental's Ultra High Performance All-Season radial developed for drivers of sports cars, sports coupes, performance sedans and sport trucks. The ExtremeContact DWS is designed to satisfy their year-round driving needs by blending dry and wet road performance with light snow and slush traction. Read more.

Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric All-Season (Ultra High Performance All-Season): The Eagle F1 Asymmetric All-Season is Goodyear's Ultra High Performance All-Season tire developed for the drivers of sports cars, sporty coupes and powerful performance sedans who want to enjoy driving their cars any time of the year. It is designed to meet challenging road conditions with confidence-inspiring all-season traction, even in light snow. Read more.

Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3 (W- or Y-Speed Rated) (Ultra High Performance All-Season): The Pilot Sport A/S 3 includes a W- and Y-speed rated Ultra High Performance All-Season option that's part of Michelin's Pilot family of low profile, high-speed tires developed for the drivers of high-end sports cars, sporty coupes and sedans looking for total performance regardless of the season. The Pilot Sport A/S 3 tire is designed to provide Michelin's highest level of all-season performance by combining dry road handling, wet road grip and year-round traction, even in light snow. Read more.









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post #6 of 19 Old 05-12-2014, 06:05 AM
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My neighbor recently had a blow out on one of his Michelins. Michelin is even picking up the tab on the damage it did to the fender. Not sure if any other tire companies would step to the plate like Michelin did for him? My next set of tires will definitely be Michelins
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My neighbor recently had a blow out on one of his Michelins. Michelin is even picking up the tab on the damage it did to the fender. Not sure if any other tire companies would step to the plate like Michelin did for him? My next set of tires will definitely be Michelins
Yeah, I am not surprised. Michelin is known to have very good customer services. Above everything, their tires do everything very well, which is probably the best selling point. :cheers:
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post #8 of 19 Old 05-17-2014, 08:53 AM
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I tried a set of wrg3 nokians on mr 2012 camry. I didn't know about the EL "extra load" designation on these tires. They rode like a rock. Kal tire was extremely helpful, and recommended a set of Michelin premier v94 tires. I love the new ride and the wet/dry traction is superb.



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post #9 of 19 Old 05-17-2014, 10:36 AM
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Hankook RS3's... track ready.



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Super Sports are the best summer tire you can buy, most people look for a cheaper alternative.

The A/S3's are popular too. I see you're in Canada, and you may want a tire you can leave on a little longer until the weather starts getting closer to 5-3 degrees. (Celsius of course )

That being said I just ordered a set of 16X6.5 Borbet wheels with 205 Conti DW's. I'm not expecting long life out of them, let's be honest, but they're only $400 a set, so replacing them is cheap. I'm just worried about uneven tire wear as well.

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Last edited by Merkle; 05-18-2014 at 08:09 AM.
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Originally Posted by Merkle View Post
Super Sports are the best summer tire you can buy, most people look for a cheaper alternative.

The A/S3's are popular too. I see you're in Canada, and you may want a tire you can leave on a little longer until the weather starts getting closer to 5-3 degrees. (Celsius of course )

That being said I just ordered a set of 16X6.5 Borbet wheels with 205 Conti DW's. I'm not expecting long life out of them, let's be honest, but they're only $400 a set, so replacing them is cheap. I'm just worried about uneven tire wear as well.
I could not get Michelin Pilot Super Sport since they are not offered in 16 inch wheel size. The only Michelin high performance tire being offered in 16 inch size is the Michelin Pilot Sport 3 A/S.

I have put the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3 tires on and have been breaking-in these tires. I will write a very detailed review once I have racked up enough miles and the oil compound has worn off.

It particularly does not have anything to do with snow since I have dedicated Michelin Alpin PA3 snow tires for the winters. I was going to go with another set of summer high performance tires, but since these Pilot Sport tires were ranked so high and were beating summer performance tires on the track, it was a no brainer.

Good luck with the continental extreme contact DW. I was not a huge fan of these tires. For tires that road so hard, they had a lot of problems that did not make them worth it in my opinion. The uneven tread wear is also very suspicious. Maybe, you might have different experiences with them.
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Ah, I didn't know you couldn't get the PSS in a 16" size. Bummer.

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Hankook RS3's... track ready.
I have the EVO K110 , had Dunlop DZ101's before the Hankook.
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Miles used: 1000 KM (621 miles)

Pros:

- Insane amount of grip. These tires simply don't let go. You could stomp the throttle mid-corner 100% and these tires would never transition into understeer. Simply insane.

- Super quiet tires until you hit about 110 - 120 km/h cruising speeds (68 - 75 mph) when these tires tend to get a bit noisy. At low speeds, no impact boom, no big thuds and no big slamming noises when you go over rough patches or potholes etc. Simply beautifully these tires roll over them quietly.

- Comfortable ride. No tram lining over bumps, no big kick backs in the steering when you go over a pothole or a manole etc. My Continental ExtremeContact DW had this issue where they used to tram line over grooved roads like crazy.

- Braking is super amazing. These tires make the car stop on a dime. Even with my slotted and cross drilled disks with carbon ceramic pads, I never felt braking so strong. The moment you touch the pedal, these tire immediately transition to braking. My better braking than those of the Continental ExtremeContact DWs.


Cons:

- Because of the soft compound meant for traction, these tire shoulder blocks are not rigid. Therefore, these tires compared to my previous Continental ExtremeContact DW summer tires, tend to roll more. Even upon hard acceleration, despite my Koni Yellow shocks set to 90% stiffness in the rear, these tires tend to squish a bit. That is in contrast to my previous ExtremeContact, which were very rigid so there was literally almost ZERO weight transfer under hard acceleration. I used to love that push from the back feel the Continental ExtremeContact DW used to give as if the rear is pushing the car forward, but it is no longer there with these tires.

- Steering response again due to the softer compound is a bit vague. The tires don't telegraph information regarding what is happening on the asphalt as well as how my Continental ExtremeContact DW did. That is again coming from my Continentatl ExtremeContacts DW that had a laser sharp steering response with almost like "you think and you are there" type feel. These tires tend to squish under sudden transitions during change of direction.

Although, again keep in mind these tires are brand new while my Continental ExtremeContact DW had over 30,000 KM on them (over 25,000 miles) so as the tread wears out, the tires tend to get stiffer as the shoulder blocks wear out. So my view of the squishiness might be skewed by the fact that I had a lot of miles on my previous Continental ExtremeContact DW.

- Punching the throttle from a stop while the steering wheel turned results in the rear outer tire flexing, which against in contrast to my Continental ExtremeContact DW that remained stiff even while accelerating with the wheels turned, is a big learning curve. Again, this could be because these tires are brand new so they might stiffen up as they reach another 5000 miles or so.


Conclusion:

- Honestly, I gave the most objective review possible. Although, I am very impressed with these tires, but despite the super stiff chassis and suspension, the fact that these tires give somewhat of a floaty feel, is a huge shock to me. I don't care as much about straight line traction as I do about the "go-kart" feel so firewall rigidity is a big factor for me.

I am torn right now as I have 2 more weeks to decide what to do with these tires. I can exchange these tires at Kaltire with something else, but my options are limited in 205/50/16.

Options:


These are the three options I am contemplating right now.

- Stick with these tires and give these tires a chance. They might stiffen up as the tread shaves off with miles.

- Spend $1200 a upgrade wheels to 17 x 7.5 Enkei PF01 lightweight wheels (only 16 lbs each) and trade these tires in for Michelin Pilot Super Sport tires. That will take care of the firewall rigidity issue while retaining all of the quality of Michelin tires. These 16 inch Motegis will then become my winter wheels so I don't have to swap tires on wheels. That would also allow me to lose some more rotational mass on the wheels. The downside is, I have to dish out another $1200 for the wheels and another $200 for the Michelin Pilot Super Sport in the larger size.

- Buy the Continental ExtremeContact DW off the internet from 1010 tires or from Tirerack and sell these Pilot A/S 3 tires for a good price on the internet myself.

Anyway, these are my thoughts so far. If you have any suggestions or comments, please share. Thanks.

MP Lexus RCF Carbon Performance Pkg w/ TVD 15,000 KM - Stock

SSM 05 Corolla XRS 6 Spd VVTL-i 2ZZ-GE (225,000 KM)

BT: [email protected](I/E)/Injen/Greddy SP2/MPSS 205-45-17/Megan/Koni/Slotted rotors/Ceramic pads/Enkei 17 x 7.5/MWR 8 lbs flywheel/ACT Stage 1 HD/ES MM

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UPDATE: So after driving the tires for two weeks, I have decided to bite the bullet and return these tires in order to step up the game.

- I have ordered Enkei PF01 17 x 7.5 +38 offset wheels (only 16 lbs each, which are 1 lbs lighter than my 16 x 7 Motegi and about 5 lbs per wheel lighter than stock). This gives me the opportunity to lose more unsprung rotational mass while increasing the wheel size by 1 inch and width by 0.5 inches.

- Kaltire will be putting 205/45/17 Michelin Pilot Super Sport tires on once I receive the wheels.




MP Lexus RCF Carbon Performance Pkg w/ TVD 15,000 KM - Stock

SSM 05 Corolla XRS 6 Spd VVTL-i 2ZZ-GE (225,000 KM)

BT: [email protected](I/E)/Injen/Greddy SP2/MPSS 205-45-17/Megan/Koni/Slotted rotors/Ceramic pads/Enkei 17 x 7.5/MWR 8 lbs flywheel/ACT Stage 1 HD/ES MM

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