P0171 on 2002 Echo - Page 3 - Toyota Nation Forum : Toyota Car and Truck Forums
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post #31 of 43 Old 03-17-2018, 06:44 AM
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Oh okay--Yes, if smoke was coming out from near that area, something isn't sealed: filler neck ,canister itself, or where lines connect to the canister. The canister unit itself should be a sealed unit. While there doesn't seem to be a a check engine code pointing to the evap system directly, it's possible, that the canister area that is leaking, would cause the fuel/air system/ecu to try to accommodate to the extreme of what would be consider "normal" (i.e. fuel trim, etc), but still not what it should be, so triggers a CEL under that system (o2, MAF, etc) even though those components might be fine.

Last edited by HATEnFATE; 09-13-2018 at 01:04 PM.
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post #32 of 43 Old 03-19-2018, 05:05 AM
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I think that it is your problem.
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post #33 of 43 Old 03-19-2018, 05:26 AM
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I realize it from Russia
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post #34 of 43 Old 04-01-2018, 07:11 PM Thread Starter
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evegen1969 - We had a concentrated fuel system flush done in mid-February which hopefully should have cleared out any blockage in the fuel injectors.

So here are the latest updates:

A couple of weeks back, we replaced the PCV valve and gas cap. Checked the PCV hose to make sure it wasn't cracked. Took the car out for a spin. Within 5 minutes, the P0171 pending code was triggered. Kept clearing and rerunning scans while my son drove. Every 5 or so minutes, the pending code appeared. Today we replaced the downstream O2 sensor. This time, the PO171 code triggered within about 3 minutes and it took shorter periods of time for the pending code to appear. So it looks like the old sensor may not have been reading as well as it should have but it wasn't the source of the problem.

As a recap, to date we have replaced the MAF sensor, the up- and down-stream O2 sensors, the PCV valve, and the fuel cap. We had the system smoke tested, which showed no leaks in the manifold area, and the fuel system was flushed with a concentrated cleaning solution by the shop. The only potential sign is the smoke that slowly leaked from near the fuel filler neck (viewed from the underside of the car) during the smoke test.

My choices for the next step are either to follow-up on the evap system to see if it needs sealing, in case the P0171 is being triggered down the line as suggested by l33ch; to replace the fuel pump and filter; or to have the injectors checked to make sure they are functioning correctly. In the next day or so my son will request yet another one-month extension on the emissions test, so that gives me about 30 or so days for this next step. Thoughts?

FWIW, I have attached the latest log I collected through Torque today after the downstream O2 sensor replacement in case it might help. This is from some major road driving (about 40 mph) with stops/slowdowns for lights.

As always, any suggestions/help are appreciated.
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post #35 of 43 Old 04-02-2018, 08:05 PM
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It's too late now, but I was thinking it would have been nice if the mechanic did the smoke test with the rear seat removed and the "sticky-tacked" cover plate removed to show the topside of the fuel pump. Just to see if any smoke came out there too (tank seal, or one of the evap lines that connects to the fuel pump, etc). or if it was just around the filler tube area. I don't like the fact any smoke is visible, so I would follow the smoke.

Hopefully others will chime in here. Your fuel trim is off the scale, and it still runs too lean--it's getting that air from somewhere. I don't think, contrary to what I said earlier, it's a fuel delivery issue as the car is trying to give it more fuel but still not enough to maintain ideal 14 to 1 fuel/air ratio (or whatever it is). Anyone else? Let's help get this guy's car fixed!
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post #36 of 43 Old 04-05-2018, 08:13 PM Thread Starter
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So I called the shop where I took it in previously and gave him the update. Instead of asking me to bring it back in, he just suggested I take it to a Toyota dealership to see if it might be something related to an update of the computer. In his opinion, nothing he saw, including the smoke by the filler tube, signifies the amount of oxygen that would have to be registered by the MAF to cause those kind of high LTFT numbers.

Before I do that, I think I'm going to go ahead and recheck all of the hoses between the airbox and intake, as well as the vacuum hoses. Will also recheck the MAF to make sure it is properly seated and change out the air filter. While I don't expect it'll fix the issue, I just wanted to cover these bases before dealing with a dealer's shop.
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post #37 of 43 Old 04-12-2018, 09:21 PM Thread Starter
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Hmmm...a potentially interesting development

So my son called me in a panic last night as his car was making weird noises and his overheat light was on. Headed out to see him, and besides a nearly empty radiator, he was also very low on oil (probably burned up from the overheating from little fluid). Added both, and noticed that the fluid was slowly but steadily dripping from the area near the manifold. Apparently the overheat light had been coming on for days and he had been adding coolant to turn it off, not considering something major was wrong by the fact that he was continually adding coolant (ugh!). I managed to get him running well enough to get the vehicle into another shop I use on a regular basis. My guess was a shot water pump. This was confirmed this morning by the mechanic.

While at it, I also asked them to give a stab at determining the cause of the persistent P0171 code. When running diagnostics, they found a coolant temp sensor fault code as well. Their deduction, if I understood it correctly, was that the CTS had been progressively getting worse over time, and while it hadn't triggered a fault code until now, it might have been sending incorrect temp info to the computer nonetheless, causing the computer to think the car was running warmer than it actually was. In reaction, the computer fed less less fuel than was needed, which in turn was triggering the lean code. So they replaced the CTS while replacing the water pump.

My son is up and running again and is keeping an eye on the dash. Keeping fingers crossed, even if I'm still hesitant to believe that this will be the solution. If the CEL doesn't reappear within the next 24 hours, however, I'm going to assume the mechanic was right since the P0171 code was usually triggered rather quickly (within about 5-10 minutes of driving).

Will keep everyone updated.

UPDATE: Never mind. The CEL came back. Will check this weekend to make sure it is still the P0171 code, though I suspect it is. Oh, well, back to the old drawing board.

Last edited by Mumford67; 04-12-2018 at 09:34 PM. Reason: Update
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post #38 of 43 Old 04-13-2018, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumford67 View Post
So my son called me in a panic last night as his car was making weird noises and his overheat light was on. Headed out to see him, and besides a nearly empty radiator, he was also very low on oil (probably burned up from the overheating from little fluid). Added both, and noticed that the fluid was slowly but steadily dripping from the area near the manifold. Apparently the overheat light had been coming on for days and he had been adding coolant to turn it off, not considering something major was wrong by the fact that he was continually adding coolant (ugh!). I managed to get him running well enough to get the vehicle into another shop I use on a regular basis. My guess was a shot water pump. This was confirmed this morning by the mechanic.

While at it, I also asked them to give a stab at determining the cause of the persistent P0171 code. When running diagnostics, they found a coolant temp sensor fault code as well. Their deduction, if I understood it correctly, was that the CTS had been progressively getting worse over time, and while it hadn't triggered a fault code until now, it might have been sending incorrect temp info to the computer nonetheless, causing the computer to think the car was running warmer than it actually was. In reaction, the computer fed less less fuel than was needed, which in turn was triggering the lean code. So they replaced the CTS while replacing the water pump.

My son is up and running again and is keeping an eye on the dash. Keeping fingers crossed, even if I'm still hesitant to believe that this will be the solution. If the CEL doesn't reappear within the next 24 hours, however, I'm going to assume the mechanic was right since the P0171 code was usually triggered rather quickly (within about 5-10 minutes of driving).

Will keep everyone updated.


Time for a new ride?

UPDATE: Never mind. The CEL came back. Will check this weekend to make sure it is still the P0171 code, though I suspect it is. Oh, well, back to the old drawing board.
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post #39 of 43 Old 04-14-2018, 10:54 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by zythr View Post
Time for a new ride?
Unfortunately not really an option. He had sunk most of his savings into buying the car and has had it for less than 18 months. And besides this one pain of a problem, the car has been running fine.

As for me....I just want a solution to this puzzle already.
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post #40 of 43 Old 04-15-2018, 03:32 PM Thread Starter
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Next Steps

After doing some more research, I've decided that my next step will be to follow evgen1969's suggestion and replace the fuel injectors. Especially after reading this thread from another subboard here regarding a 2003 Corolla with a number of similar issues:

https://www.toyotanation.com/forum/13...0171-code.html

What struck me most specifically was this quote:

Quote:
1- In the past, when I wanted to reset the ECM, I disconnected the battery for several hours (usually overnight), allowing the engine to become cold. However, the most recent time I did a reset, I disconnected the battery for only 30 minutes after having driven the car, so that when I reconnected the battery with a reset ECM, the car was still warm. At that point, the car idled very roughly and almost stalled when I first started it with a hot engine but with reset fuel trims. In fact, it even threw a couple of codes (2 fuel injector misfires) and idled poorly until the long term fuel trim went back up to its abnormally high level. However, I have gotten the same codes before when I purposely stall the engine by artificially introducing a vacuum (such as disconnecting a hose). So while interesting, I don't know how helpful this information is diagnostically.
Going back to my earlier posts on this thread, that is the same thing I ran into each time I had disconnected the battery while cleaning that old MAF sensor. As per some people in the other thread, that seems to imply injector issues and one or more bad injectors could definitely introduce the lean code.

So I'm planning to buy this set of 4 remanufactured DENSO fuel injectors off of eBay and will install them. Seller ratings are decent and its cheaper than having just one of the current injectors inspected/cleaned. Looks like a simple enough job and I can always put the old injectors back in if these have any issues.

Will keep everyone updated.
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post #41 of 43 Old 04-29-2018, 10:04 PM Thread Starter
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Making progress

Okay....

So today we replaced the Echo's fuel injectors with the eBay refurbs and things are definitely looking better if not perfect. At first, we didn't seat the injectors properly and had a bunch of fuel leaking around the fuel rail. Disassembled everything again and reset everything and everything looked good. Ran the engine till warm and then took it for a 20 minute spin. On the positive side of thing, LTFTs are down and the P0171 pending code did not yet return. On the not so positive side of things, LTFTs are not just down but they are way down (down to -32.0 in idle and only peaking over 0 a few times, even when the car was up to speeds of 60 mph). See the attached log of our trip.

My guess is that one or more of the refurbished injectors is leaking though not fast enough to be easily noticeable. Maybe a bad o-ring or just a bad injector.

For now, I've asked my son to drive the car 100 miles and if no CEL returns, he is to have it emissions tested so that we can get that out of the way. Even if he passes, I'm thinking we will still need to address the low LTFTs sometime in the near future. May just have a couple of the old injectors ultrasonically cleaned and fitted with new filter baskets and o-rings and then some time over the summer, revisit this project.

But I think that, at least for now, we have made a step definitely in the right direction.
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post #42 of 43 Old 04-30-2018, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Mumford67 View Post
Unfortunately not really an option. He had sunk most of his savings into buying the car and has had it for less than 18 months. And besides this one pain of a problem, the car has been running fine.

As for me....I just want a solution to this puzzle already.

That's understandable.
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post #43 of 43 Old 05-29-2019, 07:25 PM
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Did you ever figure this out?
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