[Matrix Mr Smith]

Greetings from NC. I am posting for my friend (we'll call him Mr. Anderson), but might as well be me because I do all the hard work, same as in the movie (ha)

2007 Matrix, base 4 door. 260K+ miles.

Situation: soon as the weather got cold this past weekend, the starting got slower and slower. We took the battery in for a check (4-5 year old Interstate) and it tested bad (I already knew v-drop was down to 8 when starting). So got a new 5 year Duralast using last money, not a bad deal they matched the Wow-mart price, so got 5 year for $1 above their 1 year price.

Started like a champ. Big time. Like new. 3rd day, same day after car made 100 mile trip with multiple starts and stops just fine, we fire up as usual (same fine start), go down 2 exits, park at a fast food place and come back out 30 minutes later, no starting. Nothing. Not a solenoid click, nothing. Lights bright, jump did nothing. Changed battery terminal. no change.

"E.T., Tow'n home" (AAA)

So far have done the following:

Battery checked still fine, 12.6, but no V drop really when ignition is engaged…indicating nothing's firing towards the starter.

When running, was 14v at terminals.

V-checked for energizing voltage at solenoid. There's a brief flicker of 12.3 that can be read upon ignition engage, then it goes away just as fast.

So pulled the starter, bench tested direct battery connections and energize of solenoid. All worked fine. Big click, big spin.

Pulled starter relay before that, checked that with 12v inside, worked fine. Checked terminals for connect/disconnect relay clicked and closed circuit. Fine clicking. 70 ohm coil.

Pulled the neutral switch off…ugh, it's rivets so no easy open and clean. I checked a common (I could find no diagram) and got a continuity on each position somewhere. Rear backups work, no change in starting in neutral either before or after. Even better, backups still work after a re-install. Probably that is back on the mark.

Ignition…haven't pulled that yet?

When key is turned, dash lights go off, you can hear fuel pump run, just nothing happens really…release key, dash lights come back on shortly after.

Not sure what to diagnose next. Have checked all the hood fuses, they continuity check fine, but still have 8 of the agonizing under-dash ones left to check.

Would a suddenly bad key transponder cause this, or does the other evidence indicate that's probably not the problem?

Just wondering why would start fine, drive a bit, then upon shutting car off, no joy.

Only other wonder at this point was a goober in a truck parked on the road beside the parking lot, who seemed to be punching in numbers, looking over, punching in some more, looking over. The arduino and wireless hackers can't hack away a Matrix's function that way now can they? Only unlock and lock codes? Paranoid, I hope.

Anyway, common debug-sites say if starter tests fine on bench, but no v's at solenoid energizer, check neutral safety and ignition switch so I guess tomorrow is ignition switch check…though it's given no notice.

Maybe a factor:

Engine light been on long time ever since got miss and changed out #3 coil-pack. Has been back on since.

Bad ECU/ECM potentially could cause this? No symptoms prior for that other than check engine light and #3 miss code (at last check, even after change of coil pack). Runs fine in general.

Thanks for any debugging/troubleshooting suggestions, and many apologies if I am busting a protocol, or usual intro. I've been on this for 2 days already, and no real money to fix at a shop. I crazy! :grin:

r

 

[smancer]

Try cleaning grounding point from the battery to chassis, make sure there's good metal to metal contact to the chassis. I just read someone who was having electrical issues and in the end that's all it was. Worth a shot.

 

[Matrix Mr Smith]

Thanks for your reply.

I forgot to mention we cleaned the chassis ground beneath the battery, but still no change, though we did not undo the second one to the engine yet. I did do a voltmeter voltage check from battery to the starter locations, there is only a slight V drop from the battery to the test point.

I will try to again jump the solenoid energizer connection, and see if I can get it clicking/starting direct, in situ. If that does not work, that would suggest maybe the positive cable to the starter has an issue, but so far, all seems well as to that in general. Everything works, radio, light, interior.

I don't understand the sudden onset of this.

 

[Matrix Mr Smith]

OK, update

Shorted across from battery to solenoid energizer on starter, car "cranks" fine, so probably not starter?

Not neutral position switch I wouldn't think for the following reason: via 12v LED lamp test at the energizer connect to solenoid, I get a clear current for 1 second per ignition attempt when using Key, checking at starter solenoid energizer position. But clearly there is not enough current there to engage the solenoid?

That indicate a bad battery cable to the main electrical works inside the car, and back out perhaps? Can a starter relay be bad even if testing good outside the car?

We're going to work on the positive battery cable, it is corroded a lot. But everything is bright inside, so I am wondering if it's the relay despite it testing OK?

Starter relay clicks inside car, also tested OK outside of car, but fact is, for some reason there is not enough current going to energizer wire to solenoid for some reason… Not enough to pull the solenoid. Direct connecting from positive battery to solenoid works nicely.

?

Stumped still. Got to be a simple explanation for not enough current to solenoid switch (or solenoid works direct to battery, but not from start circuit), but all lights and everything seem strong as can be inside and out.

Solenoid starting connect gets v's.

r

 

[cj1]

Is there another relay like the starter relay that can be swapped? Relay contacts could have high resistance.

 

[Matrix Mr Smith]

Thanks, I was about ready to try that. But I read on corrosion of the cables, and there is the white salt problem there on the positive in particular.

So, after all this overworking the problem…a simple 2 minute dip in hot water and baking soda, then some direct application. Or spilling that all down the area there… cranked right up.

So, probably going to need a new positive cable side wiring harness as the original is all salted up and bad.

Sorry to waste anyone's energy. Mr. Anderson suspected it was that all along but placing a new terminal solved nothing…it's the white salt…limiting current to the works into the car I'd bet. Fine for lights and such, but not for the starting current through the relay!

Changed title to indicate solved.

Plus side, I know how to fix everything else that is not broken now. Score one for Mr. Anderson, another loss for Mr. Smith, except I read and enacted the fix at least.

Thanks for your time and suggestions cj1 and smancer.

 

[Matrix Mr Smith]

Except now, thanks to Murphy's Law?

There's a metal clip that catches the top of the little cove drawer there above the fuse block area…and it sprung away back in there, so have to find needle in haystack lest it short out something eventually back there.

So, the current (ha) fix is just baking soda/water cleaning on the positive cable… I suspect the smaller of the two which goes to the starting process inside was overly current limited. If it works once it's dry, that's remains to be seen.

Will order new cable, the old terminal rotted off ages ago has had one of those bolt ons, but that doesn't cure the white salt of doom, or whatever that is.

We noticed that the new battery developed that stuff in only 3 days on the terminal…which was just cleaned, far faster than the old. Must be it had the kick to make the stuff faster?

Anyhow, there we are.

 

[Matrix Mr Smith]

DIY voltage probe/test lamp

Case it helps anyone…

Using a single LED and some resistors (I lacked a single 470ohm), I made a test probe with a small screwdriver and a clip wire. Saved a run to Home Depot/Autozone and $6-$8.

Since I didn't have a 470 ohm proper for my LED, I used a 330 in series with 2 other 330's parallel to the positive (longer) LED lead ( 165 or so that way, plus the series 330 = close enough ), the end of the resistor I wrapped around the screwdriver tight enough to make contact. It glowed nice and bright but not over current. Clip goes to any ground.

Confirmed a good voltage at the energize wire. As to the one second pulse, I guess the system only tries a bit and if not seeing motion on the crank sensor indicating a turning, does not continue.

Theory is the new battery's bigger oomph accelerated the formation of white stuff and overwhelmed any contact inside…or there's a breakage inside that moving the cable to soak repaired. Anyway, new cable on the menu.

r

 

[Matrix Mr Smith]

OK, that wasn't it. It worked a day. Then the non-starting began again.

We let it sit 2 days. It started fine, 3 times out and about. Got home. Tried it again. No start.

The starter would not remote-trigger (jump trigger), the solenoid jumper wires just sparks.

Pulled the starter, pulled the solenoid. The piston was gunked up with some dried lube or something else. Cleaned, sliding smooth as silk. Took out to car, tested. Pulled in fine.

Put together, tried at battery…BIG click, pulled in fine, gear out, all the jazz.

Put starter back in, tried a test there to make sure it worked still…(jumped)…yep.

Put new terminal on battery, after cleaning the lugs big time. All together, car cranked but didn't start. Then cranked and started. I let run 2 minutes, then we turned it off.

No longer cranking.

[email protected]%#%$

I'd guess a solenoid trigger jump would yield same spark, but no action. Solenoid coil ohm checks at 1.3 (warmed up inside the house). This a bad battery situation, or something else? After all, before the battery change just had a slow starter situation. Battery tested bad. New battery is 12.7v's currently. After starting it's 12. 6 something typically.

I am stumped!

 

[cj1]

After all thats been done, assume that battery and possible voltage drop across the starter circuit isn't the problem.
That pretty much leaves the starter as the intermittent problem.

 

[hardtopte72]

I'm going with starter. It's cold, it's clicking, and it's common.

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/1...-pontiac-vibe-starter-replacement-w-pics.html

 

[Matrix Mr Smith]

Yep, was the starter…which is what I thunk originally at the restaurant it stopped working at, due to the lack of even a solenoid click.

But when it checked out on the bench, then back in the car and it seemed to work and did for a whole day one time, that sure confused me. Only had a solenoid issue long ago with a VW I think, usually the starter just gets slow, or doesn't crank, but the solenoid still works.

Anyhow, trip to NAPA to get a lesser quality one solved it. (Cold cast, not polished machined precision front is the main notable difference) It works a charm now, starting every time, fast turn. New one is noticeably lighter also. $94 with core exchange.

Thanks for your time and suggestions, All.

On the plus side, I now know how to debug and diagnose 5 other things that weren't the problem, and can take out and install a starter in 10 minutes, though I bet I could get that down to three were it not for the fan housing removal to get at it easier. Next chore: Cat O2 sensor frozen in, but apparently the source of the the Check Engine code seen since forever.