[infoprodigy]

Ok I have ready quite few post on these swaps. I'm doing a complete engine and body modification which i'm not going to get into the whole body thing. Anyhow right now i'm just buying all parts first. I have a 91 toyota camry with the 3SFE and manual tranny. I have located 3sgte engine. Wich I know the ECU unit will have to be changed. My question is will I also need to change the tranny. I have also found another engine, ecu, and tranny but I think it is for a supra its a 1JZGTE twin turbo.

 

[white90dx]

The 3s-gte motor will bolt up just fine to your 3s-fe manual tranny... The tranny would probably break if you weren't careful though.

If you are asking about a 1jz motor/tranny, you probably have a lot more research to do before you can even think about doing a motor swap... good luck!

-Charlie

 

[infoprodigy]

Does it matter if my car is awd or front onlyl.. What mods have you done to your 3sfe. Seeing you have the same car. I want to beef it up as much as possible. All suggestions wll be appreciated. As you all ready know. I'm unfamiliar with many things auto-related. But I enjoy tinkering with just about everything.

 

[88 LE]

Does it matter if my car is awd or front only..

Nope.

Both fwd and awd (all trac) gen 2 Camrys came with a 3S-FE.

A 3S-GTE will mount up to either.

If you go through with the swap, the best thing to do is buy a clip (Celica all trac or MR2 turbo).

You then have to figure out what tranny you want to use (I suggest a E153 from a V6 Camry/Solara), which axles to use, and the wiring.


Forget about the 1JZ-GTE, unless you want to frankenstein it into your Camry.

Its a good swap for a MK3 Supra or Cressida, but not a Camry.

 

[infoprodigy]

that seems like a lotta cheese. It seems more reasonable to just buy an mr2 than to upgrade everything(enginge, axles, tranny wiring, etc...) I have been thinking of getting an HP engine kit for from topline for about $840. But then again its hard to find any other upgrades for the 3sfe. I've been wondering if the 3sge motor would be possible by itself. Excluding have to change axles, tranny, etc. Furhtermore if the 3sge and 3sfe use the same block the transplant would be useless, except for the head.

"A 3SGE used in the Celica GTS (’86-’89) is the same as the 3SFE in bore and stroke, uses the same block, is also fuel injected, but the cylinder head is a true dual overhead cam with both cams being externally driven" -http://www.babcox.com/editorial/ar/ar400108.htm

I'm thinking that the head swap and a hp rebuild kit would be wiser for the money.

 

[white90dx]

Its good to you see you doing some outside research on this stuff... It sounds like you are only getting partial information though. Please don't think that just because the 3s-fe, 3s-ge and 3s-gte all use the 'same' block that you can just swap heads and not have any problems. Each of those motors uses different internals (especially pistons) that makes them not directly compatible for head swaps (sorry, these aren't Hondas). If you change the internals of the motor along with the head, it can be done in most cases - but then it would have been easier just to buy a whole motor... Other things like piston oil squirters (or lack thereof) make certain motors more desirable than others. 3s motors from the MR2 are missing the machining on the rear for the PS pump too (just a fun little tidbit). Also remember that if you swap heads, you will need to rewire the car to run whatever motor that head is from...

Across the 3s engine family, you should be able to mount up motors with no problem (with the correct clutch and flywheel combo). We are just saying that you should also factor in the extra stress on your tranny/drivetrain when you double the horsepower output of your car. Using a stronger tranny and axles will just mean that its reliable.

What is your budget and what is your hp and reliability goals? What kind of experience do you have with projects like this (or what experience do your friends have)?

We'd like to help you more here, but we need a better idea of what you want.

-Charlie

 

[infoprodigy]

ok I also sent you an email charlie. Anyhow Budget doesn't so much matter as it will be fun and a great project for the ol' camry. But it is the only thing I have to drive so I have to keep my wheels rollin. Also, it would be great to smoke the rich kids in mommy and daddy's newly bought rides. As far as my mechanical experience its very little. Changing plugs, wires, radiator fluid, adjusting clutch pedal, and extensive audio wiring pretty much wraps it up. But I have a book on everything and plenty of time to learn as I go which is also why i'm doing this to the ol' camry and not something new. Besides the fact I'd rather look like I don't have shit. It helps keep away the users(ppl who just like you cause you have money or a nice new ride). I'm basic plan is to do the less extensive universal work as i'm saving up money for the engine and anythig else to go with it. As far as universal I mean muffler and exhaust, body work, rims, suspension, interior, and things of that nature. I will probably buy the engine last so it doesn't have to sit any longer than it has already. So I can buy everything that is needed for it prior to as well. As far as the engine goes i'm thinking the best thing to do is get 3sge motor(which i know the 86-89 gen1 3sge will bolt up perfectly to my mounts and tranny but the gen 2-4's have a lot more horse power. But i don't know how well they'll fit). Then get the 3sgte manifold and turbo kit. This only the jist of my plans as I understand a street clutch and a few other things will also be pertinent in this change. But my main goal is to not have to change the axles. I see it as being to much work and more weight. But if neccessary then I would do it. If I could get the tranny and axles and junk yard that would save some money. Money not being a big issue but I want to save as much as I can by doing what work I can do by myself or with little help. It would also be good experience. I love going to the junk yard and getting parts cause if you screw something up on their car its ok and you usually have the jist of how to do it right when you get it home. Anyhow the search continues. All help is appreciated. I'd also like some info on your camry turbo charlie
-Devin

 

[infoprodigy]

Above i'm talking about the front wheel drive celica gt engines from 86-89

 

[white90dx]

If you put in a 3s-ge motor, you will need to run the ECU and wiring from the car that the motor came from - the swap would be just about as hard as a 3s-gte motor... (less piping is needed, but that's about it)

Whether you get the extra power from a 3s-ge with a turbo kit on it or you do it with a stock 3s-gte, you will still be putting the same strain on the drivetrain. There have been multiple people who have put in a 3s-gte and kept the stock 5-speed without troubles (I'm assuming they had upgraded clutches) - but you are running the risk of breaking something.

By the time you have the $2k-8k saved up (depending on your plan) you wil probably have a better idea of what is possible...

-Charlie

 

[white90dx]

Above i'm talking about the front wheel drive celica gt engines from 86-89

The Celica GT from those years had the 3s-fe in it... the Celica GTS had the 3s-ge in it. Just FYI - the tranny that came in the Celica GTS mated to the 3s-ge is stronger and has better gearing than the stock 3s-fe tranny and is yet another option for your plans. I believe you can re-use your normal Camry axles...

-Charlie

 

[infoprodigy]

i understand...oops forgot the "-s"......so the 3sgte will bolt up fine with the ecu and wiring. So then my camry not being awd makes no difference as i c you have told me once already. OK now things are coming close to full circle for me. Ok so you say my axles would be fine with the 3sgte as well or only with the 3sge. I agree a racing clutch would be pertinent either way. So this all goes back to what you said earlier. The 3sgte is possible required parts(ecu and wiring) mounting would be fine. And a racing clutch might save me from getting bigger axles and tranny. But the safest route would be better tranny, bigger axles, racing clutch, w/any large hp gains. I've also found a lot of info on the beams 3sge but seeing how it would basically be the same either way. I would get more bang for my buck with the 3sgte than beams. Also which generation 3sgte or 3sge if any is easier to hook up to the ol'camry... Also how do you have yours turbo'd. thanks again... -Devin

 

[atobe]

they'r all pretty mount up the same . beam is a good engine but it'll cost u an arm and a leg. if you plan to do the 3sgte route i suggest you get the v6 axles would give you more peace of mind. and they don't cost a whole lot either. 3sgte above 1st gen isn't in the US. you would have to get a used JDM one if you want a 2nd to 4th gen 3sgte.

 

[white90dx]

Phew... both of you two (infoprodigy and atobe) are still a little confused.

You can't use V6 axles unless you have a tranny that accepts them. The transmission will break before the axles, but if you get a stronger tranny, you have to get the appropriate axles. Be advised though... its not necessarily a plug and play thing with the axles. That's the least of your worries - the motor, and wiring are much bigger issues.

You do not want to use a true race clutch on a street car. Its way to hard to drive and unless you are pushing more than 2x the horsepower of the motor its just not worth it... just go for a slightly upgraded clutch for whatever motor you end up choosing. (I've driven multiple cars with 6-puck copper clutches and I wouldn't want to do it on a regular basis!).

The earlier 3s-ge and 3s-gte motors will be much easier to work with and wire in - but you will be missing out on some original horesepower. Nothing you can fix with a few modifications in most cases.

Just think seriously whether you are ready to spend about twice what your car is worth on just this one aspect of your project.

-Charlie

 

[88 LE]

so the 3sgte will bolt up fine with the ecu and wiring.

3S-GTE will bolt up.

You need to use the ecu and wiring harness from the 3S-GTE.

IMO the hardest part of the swap will be rewiring the harness. Hope you know how to read electronic schematics.

Ok so you say my axles would be fine with the 3sgte as well or only with the 3sge.

The axles mate up with the tranny not the engine. So the determining factor is the tranny.

Charlie was refering to a tranny from a Celica GTS (3S-GE).

The 3sgte is possible required parts(ecu and wiring) mounting would be fine.

I said this above and I'll say it again. Best thing for you to do is buy a clip (Celica All Trac/GT4 or MR2 Turbo).

You need more then just the engine, ecu, and wiring.

 

[infoprodigy]

Ok so whats about 3k get me performance wise. I don't see the 3sgte swap in 3k budget. How can I make this project worth while and learn somethings along the way. HP Rebuild kit for my 3sfe with nitrous and a few other small things. LOL.... "I've went from dumb to dumber I believe" Whats going to be worth my while.

 

[88 LE]

Ok so whats about 3k get me performance wise. I don't see the 3sgte swap in 3k budget.

3S-GTE swap is possible with 3K.

I've seen 1st and 2nd gen 3S-GTE clips (225hp) go for $1500.

If you do all the work yourself, I think its possible to do the swap with 3K.

HP Rebuild kit for my 3sfe with nitrous and a few other small things. LOL.... "I've went from dumb to dumber I believe" Whats going to be worth my while.

You gotta decide what you want to do. Build your 3S-FE, 3S-GE swap, or 3S-GTE swap.


If you want to build your 3S-FE you can use internals (rods & pistons) from a 3S-GE/GTE. They all share the same block (3S - 3rd gen S block). Or you can use aftermarket pistons & rods.

Contact Web Camshafts and see if they'll make a set of cams for you.

Have the head ported, polished, 3 angle valve grind, and gasket matched. You can also port & polish the intake manifold.

 

[infoprodigy]

So say I got a 2nd gen clip, what is best route for tranny, axles. Would I want to go with v6 tranny and axles. And how much hp is possible to pull out of 3sfe block. if i just build it my self and have some custom work done. I could get a 3sfe block for cheap. I think thats what i'm going to look more into. The swap would take too much time with me not being able to drive it. Cost wise this make's more sense and if anything engine wise happens i'd still have my original. So if I get a core 3sfe would i want the short block or long block. Would it be easier to just build up the long block and replace the whole thing instead of taking parts from one to the other, or will it not make much difference. As far as using 3sgte pistons and rods what else is needed to build it up right. I've looked through hp kits IPP http://www.importperformanceparts.net/imports/pek-toyota.html
could i just use the kit for the Toyota Celica Turbo, MR2 Turbo 88-95 3sgte. They have two different kits one for 88-89 and other for 90-95. I'm assuming that the 88-89 kit would would work for an engine like mine if the block is the same. If I'm getting this right, which i'm probably not but its sounding good. -Devin

 

[88 LE]

So say I got a 2nd gen clip, what is best route for tranny, axles. Would I want to go with v6 tranny and axles.

1. Your stock manual tranny. I don't know how long it'll hold up to the power of a 3S-GTE though.

2. Tranny from a 86 - 89 Celica GTS (3S-GE).

3. Tranny from Celica All Trac/GT4 (if you buy a Celica clip).

You need to make a block off plate for the driveshaft output. And possibly weld up the diff.

4. Tranny from MR2 Turbo (if you buy a MR2 clip).

The tranny will not work as is, it needs to be modified to work in a fwd application.

5. E153 from a V6 Camry/Solara. Same tranny as the MR2 Turbo, but no modifications are necessary.

So if I get a core 3sfe would i want the short block or long block.

Would it be easier to just build up the long block and replace the whole thing instead of taking parts from one to the other, or will it not make much difference.

I would get a long block (block + head), that way you have another almost complete motor to work with.

I say almost cos you still need to swap over your existing intake + exhaust manifold and acccesories (alternator, ps pump, etc..).

As far as using 3sgte pistons and rods what else is needed to build it up right.

Are you going all motor or turbo?

If your going all motor you don't want to use pistons from a 3S-GTE. They have a low compression ratio.

 

[infoprodigy]

checking my options. I would rather have the turbo but what are my options and what did you think of those hp kits. I know either way a good port and polishing would help tremendously. I'd like to get atleast 200hp total when finished(ofcourse more would be better). As for the swap i'm done thinking bout it. I'd rather concentrate on the rebuild.

 

[88 LE]

checking my options. I would rather have the turbo but what are my options and what did you think of those hp kits.

The kits are alright. For what it comes with $839 is a fair price. The pistons themselves are $400 - $600.

I wouldn't use the copper head gasket that comes with it though. My buddy had a set on his supercharged 351W, o-ringed the block, torqued the heads down (arp studs), and it wouldn't hold in water worth a shit.

The kit doesn't come with rods though, so factor in another $400 - $600 for aftermarket chromoly steel billet rods.