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Discussion Starter #1
I'm currently trying to decide what motor I want to swap into my AE92 sedan. So far 3SGE and 4AGE are the front runners. One of the things I'm looking for are smog legal motors. The 3SGE should be easy enough to find here in Cali with the required emissions I'm looking for. The 4AGE is a little more of a mystery for me. I know they came out of Celicas, Corollas and MR2's. The blacktop versions seem to be JDM only. Will a 4AGE out of a US Celica swap directly into the AE92?

I'm debating on whether I want to deal with the hassle of getting the car past smog out here......

John
 

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The only way to stay legal in Cali is to swap a motor from 1 MY newer than the chassis. The JDM swaps aren't legal due to not having all of the smog equipment. Not trying to discourage you in anyway. But California is one of the hardest states to pass smog.

A route you can explore is speaking with the BAR referee to inquire what steps can be taken to get the vehicle BAR certified. The Honda owners do this type of thing often and are able to smog their B18c swaps and their B20B swaps in some cases.

Do you live in a Basic area or enhanced area? This is going to be important for you. As I understand it, it could be favorable for the owner who lives in a basic area and doesn't drive it into an enhanced area. By doing this, you wouldn't be subjected to the full smog test for pre 96 MY smog testing.

I think the 4age will be easier since this was the engine in the GTS ae92 coupes and will be easier versus the 3sge from a JDM chassis. Unless you can obtain the equipment needed to smog.
 

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i don't think any celica came with the 4age. with the corolla sedan, i would love to throw a motor from a 2000-2001 camry in there, lots of low end torque, reliable and quite fairly cheap, or u can always get it from a junk yard for cheaper. i helped my friend buying a 2000 camry and did all maintenance such as .spark plugs, seprentine belts, valve cover gasket, timing belts,water pump . after the maintenance we did,car runs super, car has 97k miles, the outside paint is faded but no dent, no rust. and my friend just need a daily for school and work.
 

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One great thing for the op is that he can use the 4age since it was offered in the prizm gsi. Just gotta make sure the vin tag matches the donor. This will be hard to source.

Edit. Here's some info for ya.

 

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Discussion Starter #5
The only way to stay legal in Cali is to swap a motor from 1 MY newer than the chassis. The JDM swaps aren't legal due to not having all of the smog equipment. Not trying to discourage you in anyway. But California is one of the hardest states to pass smog.

A route you can explore is speaking with the BAR referee to inquire what steps can be taken to get the vehicle BAR certified. The Honda owners do this type of thing often and are able to smog their B18c swaps and their B20B swaps in some cases.

Do you live in a Basic area or enhanced area? This is going to be important for you. As I understand it, it could be favorable for the owner who lives in a basic area and doesn't drive it into an enhanced area. By doing this, you wouldn't be subjected to the full smog test for pre 96 MY smog testing.

I think the 4age will be easier since this was the engine in the GTS ae92 coupes and will be easier versus the 3sge from a JDM chassis. Unless you can obtain the equipment needed to smog.
Wikipedia shows an AT160 Celica 1985 - 1989 with a US 4AGE

"Third Generation "Red Top" (Smallport)[edit]

The third-generation appeared in 1988 and was in production until 1992. This engine has the silver cam covers with the words only written in red, hence the nickname "red top". Toyota increased the compression ratio from 9.4:1 to 10.3:1. To correct the air-speed problems of the earlier generations, the intake ports in this cylinder head were re-designed to have a smaller cross-section, and hence it has been nicknamed the "smallport" head. This change in the intake ports negated the need for the earlier twin-runner intake manifold and it was replaced with a single-runner manifold. Additional engine modifications to extend life and reliability included under-piston cooling oil squirters, thicker connecting rods and other components. Also of note, the pistons were changed to accept a 20 mm (0.79 in) fully floating gudgeon pin unlike the 18 mm (0.71 in) pressed-in pins of the earlier versions. Other internal revisions were made to the pistons. They were slightly modified to make space for the under-piston cooling oil squirters found in this engine version. In addition to this, the piston ring size were changed to 1.2 mm (0.047 in) (top ring), 1.5mm (second ring) and 2.8 mm (0.11 in) (oil ring), this change in size made it difficult to obtain as compared to the earlier 16 valves versions of the 4AGE 1.5 mm (0.059 in) (top ring), 1.5 mm (0.059 in) (second ring), 3 mm (0.12 in) (oil ring).[citation needed] All non-U.S. market 4A-GEs continued to use a MAP sensor, while all of the U.S.-market 4A-GE engines came with a MAF sensor. For US-market cars this revision increased the power to 92 kW (123 hp; 125 PS) at 7200 rpm with a torque of 15.2 kg⋅m (149 N⋅m; 110 lbf⋅ft) at 4800 rpm (95 kW (128 hp; 130 PS) and 14.5 kg⋅m (142 N⋅m; 105 lbf⋅ft) Non US-Market versions (MAP Sensored) Make 8-10hp more at the crank

The 4A-GE engine was first introduced in the 1983 Sprinter Trueno AE86 and the Corolla Levin AE86. The AE86 marked the end of the 4A-GE as a rear wheel drive (RWD or FR) mounted engine. Alongside the RWD AE86/AE85 coupes, a front wheel drive (FWD or FF) Corolla was produced and all future Corollas/Sprinters were based around the FF layout. The AW11 MR2 continued use of the engine as a rear mid-engine, rear-wheel-drive layout, transversely-mounted midship. The engine was retired from North American Corollas in 1991, although it continued to be available in the Geo Prizm GSi (sold through Chevrolet dealerships) from 1990 to 1992. All 4A-GE engines (including the 20-valve versions below) feature a forged crankshaft rather than a cheaper and more commonly used cast version.

Clarification: In the U.S. market, the 4A-GE engine was first used in the 1985 model year Corolla GT-S only, which is identified as an "AE88" in the VIN but uses the AE86 chassis code on the firewall as the AE88 is a "sub" version of the AE86. The 4A-GE engines for the 1985 model year are referred to as "blue top" as opposed to the later "red top" engines, because the paint color on the valve covers is different, to show the different engine revision, using different port sizes, different airflow metering, and other minor differences on the engine.

The American Spec AE86 (VIN AE88, or GT-S) carried the 4A-GE engine. In other markets, other designations were used. Much confusion exists, even among dealers, as to which models contained what equipment, especially since Toyota split the Corolla line into both RWD and FWD versions, and the GT-S designation was only well known as a Celica version at that time.

In South Africa in 1993 the 4A-GE engine was dropped and replaced with the 7A-FE even as other countries moved towards the 20 valve 4A-GE, as South African fuel was not suitable at the time for the 4A-GE 20valve.

Applications


Specifications:


  • Engine displacement: 1.6 L (1,587 cc)
  • Layout: DOHC Inline-4
  • Bore and Stroke: 81 mm × 77 mm (3.19 in × 3.03 in)
  • Dry Weight (with T50 gearbox): 154 kg (340 lb)
  • Valves: 16, 4 per each cylinder
  • Power: 86–95 kW (115–128 hp; 117–130 PS) at 6,600 rpm
  • Torque: 15.1 kg⋅m (148 N⋅m; 109 lbf⋅ft) at 5,800 rpm
  • Redline: 7,600 rpm
  • Fuel Delivery System: MPFI"
Maybe I'm reading it wrong but in the text it talks about only the Corolla GT-S as having the US 4AGE but in the applications list it shows an '85 - '89 Celica having it along with an '84 - '89 MR2?

I spoke to the BAR referee that passed the engine swap in my Escort wagon about doing an engine swap. What he told me was as long as the engine has emissions control equipment and it was completely stock he didn't have any issue with a motor swap. He also said the motor needed to have been offered in the US on the model it was going into hence my quest to find out if this motor had been offered for this model. Since the GT-S has the 4AGE it would be permissible by his standard so if I can find the 4AGE from another model with US emissions he'll never know it didn't come from a GT-S.


John
 

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I believe there were 2 versions of the early 4age. Someone will chime it.

Small port and large port. Don't know if the AW11 mr2 with sc was the large port or not.

Didn't know the Celica was offered with 4age.

Should be fine then with Cali.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I believe there were 2 versions of the early 4age. Someone will chime it.

Small port and large port. Don't know if the AW11 mr2 with sc was the large port or not.

Didn't know the Celica was offered with 4age.

Should be fine then with Cali.
I wonder if I found a 4AGE equipped US car if I could remove just the emissions control equipment and bolt it onto a JDM engine if the US engine is trashed? My guess is the computer would be the issue as it is programmed for JDM engines and no emissions programming. Maybe if I find a trashed 4AGE I could pull the computer and plug it into the JDM motor.

John
 

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Many JDM engines weren't required to follow the US standards. This is why they are popular. They might be the equivalent to the Federal standard. California is more strict.

If it's been tampered with, it's a fail. If HC is high, it's a fail. NOx, auto fail.

As long as it's OBD0, then you should be good. If it's obdi to obd0, that might be an issue.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Many JDM engines weren't required to follow the US standards. This is why they are popular. They might be the equivalent to the Federal standard. California is more strict.

If it's been tampered with, it's a fail. If HC is high, it's a fail. NOx, auto fail.

As long as it's OBD0, then you should be good. If it's obdi to obd0, that ght be an issue.
AFAIK, OBD1 started in 1991 so it would seem that to be able to claim an OBD0 engine it would have had to come out of a car that was earlier than mine which would be a big no no here in Cali.

Since my car is a '92 I could get away with an OBD1 engine as OBD2 didn't start until 1995 but, again, that would mean I would need to find a US version. I guess the only real way to be able to use a JDM motor legally would be if you had a car that was pre 1990 which would make it an OBD0. Time to find a Datsun 510.

John
 

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AFAIK, back in 95, friends of mine were running db integras and sourcing b16 with obd0.

Not saying that's the case, but some 4age coming in 87 mr2 aw11 had sc. So, if that's an avenue, then yeah, obd0 is a no no.

But for your case, a JDM 4age is a rare find. Not sure where you are in Cali, but look in la. They likely will have a JDM 4age from a Levin. But won't be cheap. 3k$ or more for the full setup.
 

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Wikipedia shows an AT160 Celica 1985 - 1989 with a US 4AGE

"Third Generation "Red Top" (Smallport)[edit]

The third-generation appeared in 1988 and was in production until 1992. This engine has the silver cam covers with the words only written in red, hence the nickname "red top". Toyota increased the compression ratio from 9.4:1 to 10.3:1. To correct the air-speed problems of the earlier generations, the intake ports in this cylinder head were re-designed to have a smaller cross-section, and hence it has been nicknamed the "smallport" head. This change in the intake ports negated the need for the earlier twin-runner intake manifold and it was replaced with a single-runner manifold. Additional engine modifications to extend life and reliability included under-piston cooling oil squirters, thicker connecting rods and other components. Also of note, the pistons were changed to accept a 20 mm (0.79 in) fully floating gudgeon pin unlike the 18 mm (0.71 in) pressed-in pins of the earlier versions. Other internal revisions were made to the pistons. They were slightly modified to make space for the under-piston cooling oil squirters found in this engine version. In addition to this, the piston ring size were changed to 1.2 mm (0.047 in) (top ring), 1.5mm (second ring) and 2.8 mm (0.11 in) (oil ring), this change in size made it difficult to obtain as compared to the earlier 16 valves versions of the 4AGE 1.5 mm (0.059 in) (top ring), 1.5 mm (0.059 in) (second ring), 3 mm (0.12 in) (oil ring).[citation needed] All non-U.S. market 4A-GEs continued to use a MAP sensor, while all of the U.S.-market 4A-GE engines came with a MAF sensor. For US-market cars this revision increased the power to 92 kW (123 hp; 125 PS) at 7200 rpm with a torque of 15.2 kg⋅m (149 N⋅m; 110 lbf⋅ft) at 4800 rpm (95 kW (128 hp; 130 PS) and 14.5 kg⋅m (142 N⋅m; 105 lbf⋅ft) Non US-Market versions (MAP Sensored) Make 8-10hp more at the crank

The 4A-GE engine was first introduced in the 1983 Sprinter Trueno AE86 and the Corolla Levin AE86. The AE86 marked the end of the 4A-GE as a rear wheel drive (RWD or FR) mounted engine. Alongside the RWD AE86/AE85 coupes, a front wheel drive (FWD or FF) Corolla was produced and all future Corollas/Sprinters were based around the FF layout. The AW11 MR2 continued use of the engine as a rear mid-engine, rear-wheel-drive layout, transversely-mounted midship. The engine was retired from North American Corollas in 1991, although it continued to be available in the Geo Prizm GSi (sold through Chevrolet dealerships) from 1990 to 1992. All 4A-GE engines (including the 20-valve versions below) feature a forged crankshaft rather than a cheaper and more commonly used cast version.

Clarification: In the U.S. market, the 4A-GE engine was first used in the 1985 model year Corolla GT-S only, which is identified as an "AE88" in the VIN but uses the AE86 chassis code on the firewall as the AE88 is a "sub" version of the AE86. The 4A-GE engines for the 1985 model year are referred to as "blue top" as opposed to the later "red top" engines, because the paint color on the valve covers is different, to show the different engine revision, using different port sizes, different airflow metering, and other minor differences on the engine.

The American Spec AE86 (VIN AE88, or GT-S) carried the 4A-GE engine. In other markets, other designations were used. Much confusion exists, even among dealers, as to which models contained what equipment, especially since Toyota split the Corolla line into both RWD and FWD versions, and the GT-S designation was only well known as a Celica version at that time.

In South Africa in 1993 the 4A-GE engine was dropped and replaced with the 7A-FE even as other countries moved towards the 20 valve 4A-GE, as South African fuel was not suitable at the time for the 4A-GE 20valve.

Applications

Specifications:


  • Engine displacement: 1.6 L (1,587 cc)
  • Layout: DOHC Inline-4
  • Bore and Stroke: 81 mm × 77 mm (3.19 in × 3.03 in)
  • Dry Weight (with T50 gearbox): 154 kg (340 lb)
  • Valves: 16, 4 per each cylinder
  • Power: 86–95 kW (115–128 hp; 117–130 PS) at 6,600 rpm
  • Torque: 15.1 kg⋅m (148 N⋅m; 109 lbf⋅ft) at 5,800 rpm
  • Redline: 7,600 rpm
  • Fuel Delivery System: MPFI"
Maybe I'm reading it wrong but in the text it talks about only the Corolla GT-S as having the US 4AGE but in the applications list it shows an '85 - '89 Celica having it along with an '84 - '89 MR2?

I spoke to the BAR referee that passed the engine swap in my Escort wagon about doing an engine swap. What he told me was as long as the engine has emissions control equipment and it was completely stock he didn't have any issue with a motor swap. He also said the motor needed to have been offered in the US on the model it was going into hence my quest to find out if this motor had been offered for this model. Since the GT-S has the 4AGE it would be permissible by his standard so if I can find the 4AGE from another model with US emissions he'll never know it didn't come from a GT-S.


John
the usdm celica has never came with the 4age, from 88-91, there was the 1.6 motor in the st version( not 4age), and there's a 2.2 motor.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
AFAIK, back in 95, friends of mine were running db integras and sourcing b16 with obd0.

Not saying that's the case, but some 4age coming in 87 mr2 aw11 had sc. So, if that's an avenue, then yeah, obd0 is a no no.

But for your case, a JDM 4age is a rare find. Not sure where you are in Cali, but look in la. They likely will have a JDM 4age from a Levin. But won't be cheap. 3k$ or more for the full setup.
I live in L.A. so finding JDM engines is pretty easy. There are a few 20v Blacktops with 6 speeds for sale currently. So far the cheapest I've found with that setup is $1,800 shipped to a commercial address,

the usdm celica has never came with the 4age, from 88-91, there was the 1.6 motor in the st version( not 4age), and there's a 2.2 motor.
That's what I thought but Wikileaks is posting something different. I guess whoever posted that doesn't know the engine as well as they think they do.

John
 

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Yes I saw a silver top 20v going for 1300$, but trans wasn't included. Not sure if the trans is cheaper or not, but hey, its LA. You're bound to find a great deal.

Though, I think silver and blue tops are more available than the black top.
 

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I live in L.A. so finding JDM engines is pretty easy. There are a few 20v Blacktops with 6 speeds for sale currently. So far the cheapest I've found with that setup is $1,800 shipped to a commercial address,



That's what I thought but Wikileaks is posting something different. I guess whoever posted that doesn't know the engine as well as they think they do.

John
Wiki is open source. Often, they get the info wrong. The correct engines were the 3sge I believe for the JDM st185.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Another Wiki. Curious how accurate it is. 4AGE experts?


Of most interest in the read for me was the following:

Toyota 4A engine tuning
4A-GE N/A. ITB

The 4A-GE/GZE engines are fit for performance tuning. The TRD company proves that. It created the most well-known naturally aspirated 4A-GE TRD out of the 4A-GE engine. Its capacity is 240 hp. To achieve high results you must take the 4A-GE engine as a sample. The 4A-FE differs from the other one with its cylinder head. It is not the best option for tuning. Bulding the 4A-FE engines is also a bad idea. You had better go and buy a new 4AGE one. It would be cheaper.
For doing the tuning of the 1st generation 4AGE engines, you should buy a cold air intake, performance camshafts (duration 264 deg), and header. In such a case you will be able to develop about 150 horsepower.
To achieve higher capacity, you need to remove the T-VIS intake manifold and buy performance cams (duration 280+ deg) with springs and tappets. You also need to port and polish the cylinder head. In a case of the 4A-GE Big Port, it means the port’s polishing and combustion chamber finishing. The 4A-GE Small Port types will probably need all those upgrades in complex and the enlarging of the in- and outlet ports diameter in addition to that. To set a new configuration, you will need to buy the aftermarket ECU (Mines, Greddy E-manage, etc.). As a result, you will get about 170 horsepower.
One can achieve even higher capacity, buying new forged pistons, which are fit the 11th compression ratio and light connecting rods. You will also need the performance camshafts (duration 304 deg), individual throttle bodies (ITB), and 2″ free flow exhaust system. When adjusted, the 4AGE engine power will rise to 210 hp.
You will be able to achieve a maximum capacity by mounting a dry sump, buying an oil pump of a Toyota 1G engine and camshafts (duration 320 deg), too. After adjusting, capacity will comprise about 230-240 horsepower and maximal rotations – not less than 10,000 rpm.
The 4A-GZE supercharger tuning is performed more easily. You need to buy an intercooler and performance camshafts (duration 264 deg), mount a 2” exhaust system, replace the pulley of the supercharger, and you will successfully get additional 20 HP
To develop 200 hp., you need to replace the SC12 to SC14 superchargers (or more highly efficient one), do the port and polish of the cylinder head and buy an aftermarket ECU.

4A-GE/GZE Turbo

For mounting a turbocharger, it is advisable to take the 4A-GZE. If you have the 4A-GE, you will need to buy the forged pistons or take the 4AGZE pistons. Install the performance camshafts (duration 264 deg), buy a turbokit (it’s up to you to choose, which one is the best) and you will develop about 300 horsepower at a pressure of 15 psi (1bar).
To get higher capacity, you need to improve your cylinder head, mount the forged crankshaft and pistons (compression ratio is 7.5-8). You will need a more efficient turbo-kit, which is adjusted at 20-22 psi (1.5 bar).


Curious if the HP and Torque numbers are for JDM engines only. If so my guess would be to lower the HP/Torque numbers around 30 or so as that seems to be the difference in regards to JDM vs USDM.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Found this in an '89 Corolla GT-S but it doesn't look the ones I've seen before. Is this a 4AGE? From what I can gather if it is a 4AGE then it is a Big Port 4AGE since the Big Ports were installed in '88 - '89 and the small ports were installed in the '90 -'91 GT-S's.



John
 
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