[fenixus]

sorry to say, but it looks like you found symptoms confirming the blown head gasket.
also check how the oil on dip stick looks like, if it is similar to a milky shake from McDonalds then yeah, it's got to be a blown HG, sorry pal.

to cheer you up, with proper tools (nothing crazy), parts and a garage, the 5s-fe HG can be done over the weekend and you CAN do it yourself if you are willing to get the tools
:thumbsup:

 

[fenixus]

yeah I would stick to OEM gasket even over Felpro (which is not bad IMO) ... thing is that any mechanic will charge you an arm and leg for this.

seems like all you need more is the torque wrench perhaps? you remove the head by unbolting it (get the NEW bolts from dealer!!!!!! don't repeat mistakes of others) after the valve cover removed (very easy). of course prior to that you need to drain coolant and remove the intake manifold, fuel injectors and all that crap around. it's just time consuming, but NOT hard.

YES, you can drive it like that, just don't go crazy on high RPMs or it may start burning oil .. and when it start running dry .. oh well .. you will be shopping for a new engine. also watch the coolant level and temperature while driving.

 

[fenixus]

cheers Nervous and Fenixus...can I drive it to the mechanic for compresion and cooling tests then bring home to repair myself it its only a HG? I think the car will still run/drive and its less than 5km to the mechanic i'd reach them without hitting normal operating temperature! Will it cause any engine damage to do this?

Also, if i'm going to be there changing a HG myself, is it worth to do say distributor, dist. cap, rotor and leads at the same time? This will all have to be removed right? if replacing HG?

The water pump and timing belt do not have to be touched for the HG replacement or should those be changed out at the same time rather than doing again sometime down the track?

Aplologies for what must seem like stupid questions to some!!!!

Thanks

the head includes the camshaft, so the timing belt will have to be removed either way with all things required to get to it. you might want to do the timing job at same time too as you will have everything stripped already.

one important thing - you need to know that head probably will have to be taken to a shop for mating surface polishing/machining (head is aluminum), otherwise replacing just gasket may still cause a leak.

 

[fenixus]

Good advice about the bolts - I would've used the old ones! So no specialist tools required (apart from torque wrench)? And apart from detaching all that stuff you mentioned, should oil be drained prior or after fitting new HG - theres probably another thread here specifically about changing HG anyway (i'm pretty sure there is).

We own 2 Camry's with same 5sfe so it wouldn't hurt to learn all this stuff incase I have to carry out same procedures (I hope not!). But I will get quotes from the mechanic in case it turn out too difficult for me.

i think (never done the head job yet, just reading a lot hehe) you drain both oil and coolant before you start

you would also need a pulley holder tool (and a breaker bar) probably to remove the camshaft pulley. idea is that you bring a "naked" head for the shop for machining (and cleaning maybe?) ... i'm sure some experts will chime in soon, i'm just a shade tree enthusiast, not even a mechanic

if you can borrow tools from some parts store (like autozone in USA) then you can lower the cost of tools as you bring them back after job is done.

I doubt machining the head is THAT expensive though, don't know the numbers though.
but what I can tell is that the shop will charge you for the whole HG job (from a to z) and that is even not knowing what parts they use and what quality job they do as much as you would pay for a replacement engine (or even more)...

and yeah, the head bolts are never to be re-used, that I learned from many threads I read on that.

 

[fenixus]

well ... i think the only way to prove it's been the condensation is to top off the coolant, clean the butter from oil filler cap and ... drive it ... or get a tester kit from a parts store and test the HG for leaks.
any compression tester on cylinder might help too, if HG is blown the compression will suck balls on some or all cylinders.
you can also try a coolant pressure tester (go to shop for that, those are expensive kits) to see if cooling system holds pressure (if HG is blown then it shouldn't).

any sign of missing coolant or contaminated oil and you've might have the answer.

I would change the oil before driving it though.

 

[fenixus]

Here is the following tests i'm asking for:

a) compression each cylinder plugs IN
b) compression each cylinder plugs OUT
c) cooling system plugs IN
d) cooling system plugs OUT

is this correct?

each cylinder compression test requires the plug out
i think it doesn't matter for (plugs in or out) for cooling system pressure test.

 

[fenixus]

well ... for $2k you won't get anything decent anyways, so if the car body and rest of components (think of transmission mostly) is good then I would consider swapping the head.

still, I think that you could do it yourself if you can buy a machined head with all insides, ready to bolt onto the short block.

... but the most important question is HOW EXACTLY the guy found out it's the cracked head (so head needs to be replaced) and NOT the leaking Head Gasket (head can be kept), huh?

whatever he did from your description did not really pointed out a cracked head vs leaking head gasket ... I would get a second opinion, guy seems shady to me, sorry maybe it's just my impression (I live in New Jersey LOL) ...

I think still it might be a blown head gasket simply unless you can ask the guy WHERE the head is cracked and HOW he concluded that.

 

[fenixus]

Thanks Fenixus

I also was at a loss as to how he determined that, though he's the expert not me! I would've thought a compression test was necessary to determine if the head gasket is leaking? Not just checking the cooling system?

So, if the compression was tested and all cylinders are ok (btw what would be the normal psi on these, is it round 150 psi per cylinder?) it can't be a head gasket or the head right?

Note, before he put the open-ended filler on top of the radiator, a different device was used. This device was also fitted to top of radiator before the vehicle was started (it looked to contain a clear blue fluid inside it) I don't know what the device was or what it told him!

Cheers.

compression test is not necessary to determine that, but it would have been nice if he did that to compare compression between cylinders... it takes 5 mins with all spark plugs removed.

however since there IS a constant stream of air bubbles in coolant that means the cooling system has a leak, but if that is a head gasket (or worse cracked head) ... that is really undetermined yet... possible though.

IIRC any PSI on cylinder over 142psi is drivable (lowest limit), but usually they are supposed to be over 170psi (no upper limit). the higher doesn't mean better though as when those numbers start approaching 200psi it points to carbon buildup in cylinders.

what's most important here is that all of them are supposed to be within 14psi of each other.

I have no idea what other tester he hooked up to radiator, maybe it was the head gasket tester kit Mike mentioned, but I don't know.

 

[fenixus]

i think the fan switch (coolant temperature sensor/switch) gets cheated by air in the system. steam pockets do that on sensors as they have different density and temperature from circulating fluid.

also the fact that you needed to turn the heater on to make cooling system works I think proves there was air in cooling system, so there is a leak, this air must be coming from somewhere ... but if that is from the Head gasket (you had buttery buildup again under oil cap after only 30 miles) that is a different story.

I think it's time for more tests as described above by various posters to start ruling things out seriously. do it sooner than later or you are risking the engine.

 

[fenixus]

i am uncertain IF it is a HG issue on your car, however the buttery residue under oil filler cap baffles me totally (while no sign of coolant on dipstick or oil in general)...

I would say try a new rad cap first, but I read it's fairly new already and still the cooling system has cannot hold the pressure (air bubbles).

I think you still might have a minor HG issue causing that butter under oil filler cap, but not enough to contaminate the whole oil.
the reason why you cannot find lots of coolant in engine oil could be because the cooling system is not pressurized (air/gas leak on HG) causing it to boil at athmospheric pressure just almost like water (when pressurized the boiling point is shifted to much higher temps), so probably the coolant might be simply boiling and evaporating through opening in coolant return tank, so it doesn't go in large quantities into engine.

of course that's unless you can spot a huge coolant leak under the car?

 

[fenixus]

yeah it needs more testing for sure. good luck man!

 

[fenixus]

you can get a coolant tester from auto parts store. it's a small cheap thingy like a syringe with 4 or 5 colored balls inside and with small hose attached to it. the scale refers to how many balls (they are of different density) float in your coolant mixture. this shouls give you a good idea if you have plain water mostly now of still some coolant in it. rust stain are no good, your Water pump fins might be gone by now.

you might be able to see the water pump fins after removing the thermostat and peeking into the hole with a flashlight.

TedL makes a good point. before you start replacing parts, maybe with exception to thermostat, I would do this first and use new OEM and flush out the cooling system and refill with new mixture, get that cooling system test for exhaust gases done. it would answer most of questions (HG or not).
replacing rad hoses is a good idea too while flushing the system if they look bad.

 

[fenixus]

in addition to radiator drain plug, there is also a coolant drain bolt on the rear of the engine block, below the head.
you will see a short piece of pipe sticking out of there and a bolt which when you loosen coolant starts flowing (attach a piece of rubber hose or it will flow on your face).

draining the radiator removes only about 1/2 of coolant capacity from system, the rest stays in the engine block.

 

[fenixus]

i don't think this was the right one ... have you spotted a short piece of tiny pipe sticking out of block and bolt right by it anywhere by any chance? that's how it looks like on my 2000 US market (built in Canada) 5s-fe... don't have pics though

 

[fenixus]

Are you saying the radiator should be filled to its neck? When does the coolant shift from reservoir to radiator, during operation or after engine is stopped and starts to cool?

during warmup and when reaching normal operating temperature the coolant expands thermally, so the level in overflow tank rises and stays like that whenever engine is warm/hot.
once you shut engine down and let it cool, the coolant will contract eventually and (if there is no leaks) radiator is supposed to suck it in from overflow tank, so level in tank will slightly drop (nothing crazy).

usually it moves from LOW level to FULL mark and vice versa during those phases.

radiator however should always stay filled up to its neck, no matter what phase (cold or hot) it is in. if it's not then most likely there is a leak and it cannot suck the coolant back from overflow tank (no vacuum), it rather sucks air in (creating a pocket).
this i think also makes it run unpressurized somewhat so coolant boiling point is closer to water boiling temperature than when pressurized (boiling point shifted to higher temps).

 

[fenixus]

The symptoms returned. got the tests done. Diagnosis - blown hg on number one cylinder. They pressure tested cooling system, at 15psi its pushing coolant into number 1. When cranked the coolant came out the top of that cylinder. compression good on all four about 160 psi. didn't do leak down because their was no point (according to mechanic). So, more researching into how to replace the hg cos f**k spending more than $1000 on a car worth $2000! gutted They said they couldn't tell if it was the head itself, it needs pressure tested I guess.

EDIT: They were a little surprised it was number one, and said its more common on number 4. Also they said the piston rings seem to be good as well.

So, I need a head gasket, new bolts for the head, head pressure tested/machined - is that all? I want to do this as cheaply as possible!

sorry to hear that bro. at least now you know what up with that.

I guess what you mentioned is what you need, just get the parts new OEM and get a Toyota red coolant (concentrate) while at dealer.
I think you may also need a new intake manifold gasket, new valve coverr gasket, new timing belt (it's cheap), since you will be unbolting everything from the head.

if timing job was not done recently, you might want to do it at same time, since you will have everything apart anyways.

you might also get new fuel injector o-rings and grommets, not sure if old ones are supposed to be re-used (doubt it).

160psi is not tragic, definitely drivable (all above 142psi is), but those readings should be at/above 178psi for some optimal performance I think.

 

[fenixus]

if the leak occurs mostly on cylinder 1 then it should show the least of compression while others should be higher (since the coolant wasn't shooting out of them during coolant pressure test) ... might want to get the compression tester (it's like $25) and do it yourself. if you know how to replace the spark plug then you can handle that too

http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/showthread.php?t=344452

 

[fenixus]

In other words, they probably didnt' really do a compression test they just put down something on paper to make it look like they did do it. I'm soooo over dealing with dodgy mechanics! Even on a newer vehicle I doubt all four cylinders would give the same reading huh? I'm hunting for info/tutorial in here for hg replacement on 5sfe but I don't see anything in the gen 3/4 diy section up the top. anyone got any ideas where it is if there's one on this site? Anyway google chucked up a few results so i'll see if there's a guide in there.

they almost never give same exact reading throughout all cylinders, especially on older worn out cars, it's next to impossible. maybe they checked compression of that single leaky cylinder only?

 

[fenixus]

They listed cylinders 1-4 each separately, at 160psi each. I don't believe them or even whether the compression test was even carried out.

fishy results, I would double check that myself. anyways, it doesn't change the fact the HG is blown. pain is that you won't know if the head is cracked until it gets removed and taken to a machine shop...

 

[fenixus]

I doubt if compression testing of cylinders reveals cracks in the head. it would still be hard to say if that's been caused by a blown HG or cracked head.... but yeah I agree finding a good/honest mechanic is just as problematic as finding an honest dentist

just on a side note, this is an example of checking the head for cracks (done by a hobbyist), not a professional approach, but it seems the results are good:
http://www.custompistols.com/cars/articles/crack_inspection.htm

I think you might wanna start collecting tools for removal of the head (includes intake manifold and timing belt removal) and prep for getting it off the car soon.

doesn't really matter what the repeated compression test results show now, it's 99% sure the HG is blown and even if that 1% says the head is cracked instead of blown HG, then you still have to remove it from the engine short block

I think a professional machine shop could do a compression testing of the head (or maybe I'm wrong) ?

anybody else want to drop in their 2 cents?