[doozergreengrass]

I'm about to attempt the brake caliper check as you suggested Fenixus, i'm using the diy's for changing the pads as a reference and can see where you mean. I've never done any brake work before on any car, never needed to (apart from a brake flush). But this seems like an easy check. Gonna have a look at ef es em too to see exactly what is the 2 caliper slide pins.

 

[fenixus]

once you unbolt the caliper (2 bolts, 14mm on its top and bottom part, 25ft-lbs IIRC) there will be almost nothing holding caliper in place except for brake pads and gravity.

slide the caliper off and rest it on dust shield or hang on strut tower.

where the bolts came off will be rear ends of slide pins. they sit in rubber boots and deep in the caliper bracket. just pull them out. they should come out fairly easy.

 

[doozergreengrass]

inspect the caliper slide pins if they can slide in/out almost freely (2 fingers should be enough to move them easily), if one of them sticks then you know where the problem is.If the sticky pin is the one with bushing on it, just remove the bushing from that pin and clean it with brake cleaner and re-grease. They are very easy to remove after unbolting caliper from bracket and resting it on dust shield and strut tower right above rotor.

I checked if I could move the pins while I had all four wheels off. I'm not sure if I understood correctly. Without removing the pins, they should slide in/out easily with the press of 2 fingers? On all four hubs I could move the pins, but only a few mm's. And it took considerable force to push/pull them. Do I have a problem with all bushings/pins or should I have just removed all 8 pins (2 per hub) and greased them with mp grease? Or just do that procedure to the hub in question (rhf).

I'm thinking of just making a vid of the noise but am wondering if my camera will pick up the low frequency of the vibration/sound. Guess its worth a try. Anyways thinking bout removing valve cover, and checking all the torque on caps. And maybe removing cam shaft seal cap completely and checking it over. Is there any visual inspection on the gears of the exhaust cam that'd give me an idea if the spring loading is accurate or not? Does this seem like a necessary inspection to carry out?

 

[JohnGD]

Do NOT use MP grease or any petroleum based grease not designed for high temperature brake systems. Use only approved brake lube.

Yes. If the anchor pins do not move easily, then the caliper will bind. You should be able to compress the dust boot or stretch it like an accordion bellow while you push/pull on the pin with two fingers.

If not, then you need to remove them, clean them off and lube them. I'd remove the rubber bushings on ends of one pin on each caliper. I usually don't like to change engineers' designs like that, but I think Toyota's calipers are poorly designed. Make sure there is no solvent before you grease the pins and push them back.

Fenixus recently said that the Permatex Ultra disc brake lube may not work that well in cold weather like New Jersey. (No problems here in Calif). So you may want to try a non-petro based Permatex Ceramic Extreme disc brake lube.

http://www.permatex.com/products/au...tex_Ceramic_Extreme_Brake_Parts_Lubricant.htm

I checked if I could move the pins while I had all four wheels off. I'm not sure if I understood correctly. Without removing the pins, they should slide in/out easily with the press of 2 fingers? On all four hubs I could move the pins, but only a few mm's. And it took considerable force to push/pull them. Do I have a problem with all bushings/pins or should I have just removed all 8 pins (2 per hub) and greased them with mp grease? Or just do that procedure to the hub in question (rhf).

I'm thinking of just making a vid of the noise but am wondering if my camera will pick up the low frequency of the vibration/sound. Guess its worth a try. Anyways thinking bout removing valve cover, and checking all the torque on caps. And maybe removing cam shaft seal cap completely and checking it over. Is there any visual inspection on the gears of the exhaust cam that'd give me an idea if the spring loading is accurate or not? Does this seem like a necessary inspection to carry out?

 

[fenixus]

you did it right. if there is strong resistance in push/pull on slide pins then you have a problem. those ridicoulous bushings (rubber o-rings on one of slide pin on each side) can be the cause.

I have both top slide pins binding in front. right after car purchase I couldn't even pull out the slide pin in FD caliper (top one)... it took hell of effort to remove, but I only re-greased it and it started doing it again after temps dropped.

now I have no bushings in front and can still feel/hear the humming sometimes (brake calipers binding still sometimes) ... might be the unfortunate relation of cold weather and Permatex Ultra grease which I believe is not that superb in below freezing temps :facepalm:

next I want to completely replace the slide pins (old ones are all scratched) in front, put new OEM bushings and grease all up well with Permatex Ceramic Extreme and see what happens then.

those Toyota calipers suck big times ... can't wait for warmer weather to do that finally.

good luck with yours!

 

[JohnGD]

Another place that can cause problems is the dust boot. The inside flange area has contact with the anchor pins. If the rubber swells up the dust boot will seize the anchor pin as well. On the initial pull it may be hard but will loosen up right away, and make you think it's moving freely. The dust boots are poorly designed as well. Do keep petro-based cleaners away from rubber.

I don't like to change engineers design like that, but I'd even leave those bushings out.

now I have no bushings in front and can still feel/hear the humming sometimes (brake calipers binding still sometimes) ... might be the unfortunate relation of cold weather and Permatex Ultra grease which I believe is not that superb in below freezing temps :facepalm:

next I want to completely replace the slide pins (old ones are all scratched) in front, put new OEM bushings and grease all up well with Permatex Ceramic Extreme and see what happens then.

 

[JohnGD]

Back to the loose timing belt noise, check this video in the thread:
http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/showthread.php?t=370346

Thats interesting. Would brake drag sound like a flat tyre? I know there is a noise coming from the rhf wheel/hub/brakes.

 

[fenixus]

Another place that can cause problems is the dust boot. The inside flange area has contact with the anchor pins. If the rubber swells up the dust boot will seize the anchor pin as well. On the initial pull it may be hard but will loosen up right away, and make you think it's moving freely. The dust boots are poorly designed as well. Do keep petro-based cleaners away from rubber.

I don't like to change engineers design like that, but I'd even leave those bushings out.

yup thanks, you mentioned it once in my thread. I will take a closer look at dust boots next time I see them. In case I need new ones, I have them handy already (got them in kit with bushings and never replaced on 5s-fe) ...

I think I will also take a closer look at caliper pistons and pads wear (if any yet) ... would hate to have the calipers rebuilt/replaced, I hope it's not it.

 

[doozergreengrass]

^ Interesting vid.

I don't think its a loose timing belt, but I cannot be sure. Should I have had the crank set to 5o BTDC? I never did that, I just put the belt on making sure it was tighter between the cam and w/p pulleys, and then undone the tensioner bolt to take off the bottom slack before retightening. When the noise first occured, I removed timing covers and there was a little extra slack between cam and wp pulleys (but nowhere near enough slack for the belt to touch itself). I manually put extra tension on the belt by pushing the tensioner up as far as I could then retightening it. After doing that I rotated crank 720o and the slack had gone. I'm thinking of going back in there to retighten at 5o BTDC.

Another thing i'm curious to know. Can a blown h/g give the impression of a slipping clutch? The reason I ask is this: my car used to slip the clutch in 3rd or 5th when accelerating heavily. Now it doesn't do it since i've changed the h/g. So, was what I thought was a slipping clutch really just compression escaping from the engine causing a momentary jump in rpm? After I replaced the h/g, I drove for a while before my clutch fluid changed color. Is this because the head was off for a while? The clutch fluid is fine now after being flushed and refilled. But is the clutch itself ok? Is it vibrating? If it was, why'd it only do it around 1900-2200 rpm and while accel/decel. I also have some rattle from the clutch when engine is cold, but even when cold the noise almost disappears when pushing clutch in.

As far as this vibration noise goes, it could also compare to the noise of a small hole in the exhaust. But it can't be heard from outside the vehicle so far as I can tell. Why was an exhaust flange gasket included in my VRS kit, does one of these flanges typically fail during removal of exhaust manifold? If so, which one? Also, remember this is a right-hand-drive, and I feel the vibration coming through the steering wheel. It does seem compression related. But to be honest it could be a lot of things.

If I remove the valve cover for inspection of cams, will it be ok to reuse gasket seeing as its only been in there about 7 weeks?

Any ideas? Thanks muchly!

 

[JohnGD]

I don't think its a loose timing belt, but I cannot be sure. Should I have had the crank set to 5o BTDC? I never did that, I just put the belt on making sure it was tighter between the cam and w/p pulleys, and then undone the tensioner bolt to take off the bottom slack before retightening. When the noise first occured, I removed timing covers and there was a little extra slack between cam and wp pulleys (but nowhere near enough slack for the belt to touch itself). I manually put extra tension on the belt by pushing the tensioner up as far as I could then retightening it. After doing that I rotated crank 720o and the slack had gone. I'm thinking of going back in there to retighten at 5o BTDC.

If the noise doesn't sound like that, then it may be something else. Maybe a recording of the noise will help?

Gen 3 5SFE is tightened at TDC; Gen 4 5SFE is at 45 deg BTDC. Not sure if getting a new spring for Gen 3 makes it 45 deg BTDC.

I'd also make sure the pulley is properly tightened even using home-made tools like:
http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/showthread.php?t=357040&page=1

Another thing i'm curious to know. Can a blown h/g give the impression of a slipping clutch? The reason I ask is this: my car used to slip the clutch in 3rd or 5th when accelerating heavily. Now it doesn't do it since i've changed the h/g. So, was what I thought was a slipping clutch really just compression escaping from the engine causing a momentary jump in rpm? After I replaced the h/g, I drove for a while before my clutch fluid changed color. Is this because the head was off for a while? The clutch fluid is fine now after being flushed and refilled. But is the clutch itself ok? Is it vibrating? If it was, why'd it only do it around 1900-2200 rpm and while accel/decel. I also have some rattle from the clutch when engine is cold, but even when cold the noise almost disappears when pushing clutch in.

I really don't know how HG can cause symptoms at the clutch.

The clutch hydraulics is separate from other components. A possible cause of dark fluid may be moisture? Was the hood removed during engine repair? I also wonder if the release bearing is coming into contact with the pressure plate springs.

Does the clutch pedal have enough free play?
Is the clutch pedal engagement height within spec?
Is the dog bone mount installed right side up?
How's the rubber layer on the crank pulley? In good shape?
How are the engine mounts?

As far as this vibration noise goes, it could also compare to the noise of a small hole in the exhaust. But it can't be heard from outside the vehicle so far as I can tell. Why was an exhaust flange gasket included in my VRS kit, does one of these flanges typically fail during removal of exhaust manifold? If so, which one? Also, remember this is a right-hand-drive, and I feel the vibration coming through the steering wheel. It does seem compression related. But to be honest it could be a lot of things.

The exhaust flange gasket should be replaced each time. Is this the one with a spiral flat metal coil with the green stuff in between? You should be able to tell exhaust leaks very easily. So unless you isolate the leak, I wouldn't go back and replace all flange gaskets at this time. Not until the problem is identified.

If I remove the valve cover for inspection of cams, will it be ok to reuse gasket seeing as its only been in there about 7 weeks?

Clean the sealing surfaces with alcohol and let dry. Same with the gasket. Remove and re-apply RTV at the semi-circular plugs.

 

[doozergreengrass]

So I have the same problem and it happens after a timing belt change. The noise from inside my car sounds as if there was a pen or nail clipper bouncing in the door pockets; just random. The noise (when siting in the car) is coming from the timing belt area/corner and is more noticeable at higher RPM. The problem is that the noise only happens if the engine is in gear and under a heavy load.
In park and revving = fine.
Rolling at 40mph in neutral and revving = fine.
Driving around at any vehicle speed with light load = fine.
I basically have to open up the throttle to get the noise; mostly above 3500 RPM.

Sounds like my symptoms yeah?!

 

[doozergreengrass]

Thanks heaps for your info JohnGD....just to follow up on what you've said/asked:

A possible cause of dark fluid may be moisture? Was the hood removed during engine repair?

Hood was never removed, but the head was off the block a few weeks, according to my mate I should've wrapped top of block with cling-wrap to stop any moisture getting in. I was careful not to let any rain in there though.

Maybe a recording of the noise will help?

Probably try making one this arvo...

Not sure if getting a new spring for Gen 3 makes it 45 deg BTDC.

As soon as I have the $ i'll probably do complete t/b job, i've re-used t/b, w/p, idler bearing, tensioner bearing n spring, oil pump (new shaft n seal), oil pump housing. And I still haven't been able to rule out any of these so maybe the best way is full replacement?

Does the clutch pedal have enough free play?
Is the clutch pedal engagement height within spec?

Not sure. I think I can perform the checks according to ef es em/owners manual, if its outta spec. i'll investigate further how to adjust myself.

Is the dog bone mount installed right side up?
How are the engine mounts?

Pretty sure dog bone is right way up. But the rubber at engine attachment is very worn (see pics).From what i've read here on TN if the dog bone's worn, so are the others. Notice the red paint in 2nd pic? Apparently due to some recall over here and thats the paint mark to indicate recall work performed at stealership.

How's the rubber layer on the crank pulley? In good shape?

Wasn't really aware of that rubber layer to be honest, so didn't take much notice. This is between the belt guide and t/b pulley,or between t/b pulley and alternator pulley?

The exhaust flange gasket should be replaced each time. Is this the one with a spiral flat metal coil with the green stuff in between? You should be able to tell exhaust leaks very easily. So unless you isolate the leak, I wouldn't go back and replace all flange gaskets at this time. Not until the problem is identified.

Yeah the green one you describe, there is a pic of it with the crank and cam seals a few pages back.

I'd also make sure the pulley is properly tightened.

I know its up to at least 70ftLb but not 80. If I retighten it i'll just remove the starter and jam flywheel as its the easiest method available to me (and relatively simple). Btw, are there any dangers to flywheel teeth in this method?

Well, I might go make the video now and see if I can capture the said symptoms on camera!!!

Cheers

 

[JohnGD]

Hood was never removed, but the head was off the block a few weeks, according to my mate I should've wrapped top of block with cling-wrap to stop any moisture getting in. I was careful not to let any rain in there though.

Then I'm not sure why it changed color all of a sudden. But at least you got new fluid in there now.

As soon as I have the $ i'll probably do complete t/b job, i've re-used t/b, w/p, idler bearing, tensioner bearing n spring, oil pump (new shaft n seal), oil pump housing. And I still haven't been able to rule out any of these so maybe the best way is full replacement?

My *guess* is still the belt tension. It's easy to be off on this engine. Toyota should have put an automatic tensioner on this. The other parts shouldn't cause flapping noise.

Not sure. I think I can perform the checks according to ef es em/owners manual, if its outta spec. i'll investigate further how to adjust myself.

Pedal height is usually about 165mm. Free play is about 5-15mm. (Do check spec for your specific model/year). According to Autozone's free repair guide. Release point should be about 1/3-1/4 from the bottom.

Pretty sure dog bone is right way up. But the rubber at engine attachment is very worn (see pics).From what i've read here on TN if the dog bone's worn, so are the others. Notice the red paint in 2nd pic? Apparently due to some recall over here and thats the paint mark to indicate recall work performed at stealership.

Is that a big crack near the center mounting hole on the dog mount? At least get that changed out. It's fast and easy DIY. In the US the mount is about $30 USD.

Wasn't really aware of that rubber layer to be honest, so didn't take much notice. This is between the belt guide and t/b pulley,or between t/b pulley and alternator pulley?

If you look at the picture (from JerryGiese's DIY), at about the same radius as the letters "OEM" is the rubber layer. As the engine cylinders fire the crankshaft actually twists. And this rubber layer helps absorb the shock.
http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af329/jerrygi/hbp.jpg

However, do the dog bone first before anything else.

I know its up to at least 70ftLb but not 80. If I retighten it i'll just remove the starter and jam flywheel as its the easiest method available to me (and relatively simple). Btw, are there any dangers to flywheel teeth in this method?

In the US it's 80. I've never jammed the flywheel. But here is an example:
http://www.hondatuningmagazine.com/..._civic_dx_hatchback_timing_belt/photo_10.html

 

[doozergreengrass]

So i've made a video, but I really doubt it'd be possible to hear any noise that i've described unless you have a good set of headphones or some reasonable audio gear attached to yr computer!

 

[doozergreengrass]

Yesterday removed the valve cover to inspect everything and check tension on bearing caps. Tension was good. Inspected exhaust cam gear and it 'appears' to be ok. Decided to check tightness of bolts that were easier to access while v/c was off, including intake manifold and fuel rail. Snapped off one of the fuel rail bolts while tightening down, dammit! I can still drive around but i'll have to get to it one of these days. Anyways after tightening things still no difference. Noise remains. Gonna change out dogbone with a 2nd hand gen 4 dogbone if I can find one in decent condition. If this doesn't help will take car to a brake specialist round the corner. Hopefully if I take the mechanic for a test drive he can ascertain if it is in fact a dragging brake calliper. So the search continues....

 

[Perkins]

Where is this video you are speaking of in your previous post??

 

[doozergreengrass]

^ Didn't bother to upload it, I don't think you'd be able to hear anything because of the low frequency. Maybe i'll just upload it for shits n giggles. But I suspect you'd need it turned up pretty loud on speakers that can go pretty low bass-wise...

 

[Perkins]

** Turns Amplifier / subwoofer on **

lol. I was just curious... I saw that post and was like ???? huh , no vid

 

[doozergreengrass]

lol. yeah I guess I better create a you-tube a/c and upload it. my pc has crap speakers, so I might try burning the vid to a dvd and see if I can hear it through the stereo. I'm not even sure if the mic on the camera would've picked up the sound to begin with but only one way to find out!

 

[doozergreengrass]

Changed out dogbone, albeit with a second hand one. However, it was in much better condition than my old one! :

Can anyone identify this bolt? After everything thats been done to the vehicle, this is the only bolt I had left over. I've looked everywhere (so I thought). Twice! Its a 14mm head, and the headbolt is for reference.The 2 washers would be positioned where they would normally go as thats how I usally pull stuff apart. Its about 65mm length - 2.5".

The size of this bolt indicates something crucial to me, maybe the source of my noise/vibration.

So far to diagnose this issue: rotated tyres, removed t/b cover and retensioned belt. rechecked timing - good, unless i'm doing something wrong I don't know about. Changed out dogbone. No result. Removed valve cover and 'inspected' cam gear. looks ok but how would I know? Retightened exhaust in/out manifolds, and any other bolts/nuts that were nearby. Checked lhf brake calliper - i'm still not convinced i've eliminated this yet, i'm gonna get a shop to 'eliminate' it as a cause. I'm still looking into that issue.

Projects on hold: remove and replace broken 10mm bolt on oil pump. remove and replace broken 12mm bolt on injector rail. replace coolant overflow bottle (this is now what appears to be the source of my coolant leak). Diagnose said noise/vibration. Upgrade to gen 4 dogbone - maybe all mounts if needed. install new clutch (if required - if the noise is eliminated and it wasn't the clutch should be ok for now).test injectors, diagnose source of running rich. replace current coolant with TLLC red.bleed/flush brakes, and reflush clutch fluid. (i'm sure theres more i've missed - but as you can see its a very long list already not even taking into account exterior paint/scrach issues!!!!)

Anyway, as far as the ticking coming from the v/c or injectors, here's a rundown of the work done on the head:

Operating/enviro costs $7
Pressure test cylinder head (no leaks detected) $45.45

This note was inserted here on invoice (If you have submitted a cyl head with cam/rockers etc, and have not been charged for assembly, please check tensions and tappets etc)

Vacuum testing valves $18.19
(r/r???) stem seals $36.36
set valve clearances $54.55
head bolts #1.81
Gasket set $77.28
GST (tax) $27.06

TOTAL $297.70

I received the head back with the cams installed, but on re-reading that above note i'm wondering if the tensions (what tensions?) and tappets etc (what etc) were checked? In order to install the head I had to remove the cams to install it. But I reinstalled the cams myself. I'm positive the marks lined up, and the bearing caps were tensionsed/installed in the correct order/manner. But I have no idea about the sprocket loading on the exhaust cam gear. I just installed the exhaust cam and removed service bolt. Was some servicing missing? ie the bits in bold? I assumed because the cams were installed everything was completed but on second look maybe not THE REASON I SAY THIS IS THERE IS NO CHARGE ON MY BILL FOR ASSEMBLY. Should I have assumed assembly was carried out by the fact the cams were installed when i received it?

*sigh*

Btw, must take the opportunity to thank those of you still following this tiresome thread! I just hope somewhere along the line someone else apart from me has benefitted from it. And I am most grateful for the advice and info I have learned. Btw, if any of you TN'ers ever need advice/info on anything home-theatre related (or even computers to an extent) feel free to hit me up with a query! I'd be most happy to help. I'll help here with things newbies (like myself) ask if I can, but i'm still learning too lol. Anyway thanks TN!!!!