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5spd swap. To do or not to do?

18K views 68 replies 11 participants last post by  White95Cam 
#1 · (Edited)
UPDATE: If you're new to this thread, welcome. You'll find lots of good info here. I did post an update and conclusion with the list of parts needed in this post on p 5.

Hello,

Lately I've been debating: should I swap my auto trans for manual, or not?
Car is 99 Camry LE, 2.2L (4cyl.), auto A140E trans. 106k miles. The car is mechanically great, but paint has seen better days. Also, it's been in a few accidents, so there are some minor bodywork issues.

The big question: is it worth it to undertake the project, or should I give up the idea and purchase a different car in a few months?

Here's my situation:
- I want a stick shift.
- It's a lot of work to convert. I don't have a garage, just a small driveway.
- Paying a mechanic is not worth it for me, and I don't trust mechanics anyway. Besides, doing the work is half the fun.
- I already have parts: stick shift with cables, pedals, master cylinder, speedo. I can pull a manual tranny w/ clutch & flyweel off a car in junkyard not too far away for $80 + $60 to drive there and back. ("donor" transmission has 190k mi).
- I commute to work, and can live without the car for a week or two if I had to.
- I have a full-time job. Evenings and weekends are free.
- Lastly, I like the car. I've put in a lot of work into it already.

Ideas and suggestions welcome. :dunno:
 
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#33 ·
If it won't even crank, then it's an electrical issue. Somewhere along the lines, you haven't properly fooled the ECU.

You should be able to roll-start it however.
 
#34 · (Edited)
so you just jumped your 12v to "P" wire?

it MAY have to run through the actual NSS to give correct signal...


check all connectors and grounds.... i had forgotten a ground while doing my swap. it's a rather substantial ground cable that comes from around/under the battery and attaches to the top of the trans behind/below the starter but it's like a 12-10 gauge wire so its easy to spot. but just a that rush rush of putting it back together

and yes. if the IGN is working and fuel and spark are primed. you should be able to in theory clutch start it
 
#35 · (Edited)
Yes, that's exactly what I did, though according to wiring FSM, that connection only goes to the dash PRNL indicator.

So, pardon my stupid question, but where the heck is that "actual NSS"?

I'll swap in the M/T ECU today and connect the switch from the clutch pedal to it - that should completely bypass all the auto tranny stuff and do that trick.

And no, I'm not that excited about push starting it...
 
#36 · (Edited)
this is what the NSS looks like. it should have been on the front side of your auto trans where the gear selector cable went.


you need this plugged in and "registering park" not just jumping the "P" wire with 12v.


also you check that ground on the trans to your frame? had my swap do the same thing as described from missing that ground wire.... quickly found but apparently enough to cause issues
 
#37 ·
I just realized I left the NSS on the trans when I sold it. Fuck. Now I've got to figure out a way to complete my swap. Oh well, a broken shoulder is giving me plenty of thinking time....
 
#39 ·
I kinda figured that'd be my option.

I was hoping there was some way I could actually wire it instead of having to have the NSS involved.

Hell I might do the same thing I did the first swap I did to be able to bypass the Clutch start switch, and just snag a relay wire it to the ignition from the starter and boom.
 
#40 ·
you can wire the NSS harness without actually having the NSS connected. You just have to connect the starter wiring to bypass the NSS involvement. I believe you have to connect the black/white and black wire together. The black/white wire comes from the ignition switch, and the black wire runs to the starter. This is on the 92-96 camry. May be different depending on your vehicle year

heres a diagram of what you need to do.


or you could take the black/white wire , run it to a relay, run a wire from the relay to the Clutch switch, and have the all black wire run to the other wire on the clutch switch.


But, if you have your neutral safety switch Plugged into your harness. you NEED TO ground the entire NSS to the body of the car with a bolt for it to work, and it also has to be in either park or neutral.

The reason why I think its better to have the NSS connected is because down the road, I am going to try to get the cruise control to work and I believe the NSS may be a critical part of the project. But it might not be. I dont really know
 
#41 ·
That's almost exactly what I did last time. Awesome, glad it should work again. Thanks for the diagram.

About the cruise control. What's critical will be the brake switch, and the ECU. So if you had cruise before the swap, and didnt swap ECU's, you should still be able to use it. However, if the ECU thinks the car is in park...cruise might not work so well.
 
#43 · (Edited)
She's alive!
The reason it didn't start before was because I had connected the wrong pins on the NSS connector. There are two separate 12v loops in the NSS:
1st one powers the PRND2L indicator in the dash, cruise control, and ECU
2nd one is purely for the starter, and is only connected in P and N - these are pins 5 and 5, which are the two big wide pins in the middle of the connector.
(if you look at Perkins' NSS cleaning thread, you can actually see the two sets of connectors inside)

Previously, I closed the first loop, which gave me the speedo cluster indicator but no starter action.

That is a temporary solution anyway. The way it is supposed to work is that starter relay cable is supposed to go through the clutch release switch, like in the wiring diagram below:


So, I will connect a cable the way it is supposed to be, and you will only be able to start the car with clutch released - good safety feature anyway.

As for cruise control, here is what the FSM has to say about it:
Placing the shift lever except D position (Park/Neutral position SW except D position). ”Signal is not input to TERMINAL 3
of the cruise control ECU” (A/T)
Depressing the clutch pedal (Cruise control clutch SW off). ”Signal input to TERMINAL 3 of the cruise control ECU” (M/T)
In other words, the other connector on the clutch pedal, the one that is activated when the clutch is engaged, goes directly to the cruise control ECU. Connect it, and Cruise Control should definitely work. This is again confirmed by another wiring diagram (see how pin 3 is fed by either the said switch of the "D" auto tranny connector):


As for my swap, all is good. The only problem I had is that I get a bit of crunch when engaging 3rd gear with engine revs above 2k or so even with clutch fully released - I think I need to adjust my clutch pedal to solve that problem.

Hope this helps anybody doing this worthy swap in the future. I will update the thread once I'm done enjoying my finished swap and complete all the wiring. :)
 

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#44 ·
Lots of tech in this thread. I like it.

Someday, I want to do this. Were is the best place to find a 5spd for the 4th gen? Obviously IN a 4th gen, but what else has a compatible trans... that is maybe easier to find? Celica? Lexus? I'd ask if the 5spd in my MR2 would work, but those are prolly rarer than 5spd Camrys...
 
#45 · (Edited)
Ok, so another update: Cruise Control works!

Here's how. Because starter mechanism is independent of the PRND2L mechanism, I connected the NSS to set the car to "D" all the time, and my cruise control works just fine. The car also starts just fine, and I can take out the key (key lock mechanism is linked to auto gear shifter lock mechanism, not NSS switch on the tranny).
In short, to make starter work, connect pins 5 and 6 of NSS; to set it in "D" to make Cruise Control work, connect pins 2 and 10.

Again, this is a temporary solution for me as I'm planning to convert it properly, but it might work for you if you choose so.

On a side note: I adjusted my clutch, and I still get some crunching into 3rd gear. Any info on 3rd gear syncro replacement? Thanks in advance.
 
#48 ·
Which way/how far did you adjust the clutch? Did you put a new clutch and machined flywheel in during your swap? Did you install the clutch correctly?

If yes to those questions, 3rd gear syncro is pretty deep in there. You might as well have a full rebuild done. I dont remember, but either 2nd or 3rd had a crazy syncro on it and was a pain to replace when I did a rebuild on my S51 years ago.
 
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#49 · (Edited)
I do not think there are any problems with clutch - the gear grinds when selected with clutch fully disengaged, and only when the vehicle speed is above 20mph or so. Under 20, it goes into 3rd nice and easy.

I adjusted the clutch pedal, the rod that goes from the pedal to the master cylinder. It was loose when the pedal was released, so I tightened it so that there is no slack - as soon as you start pressing the pedal it starts acting on the master cylinder.

I put in used clutch and flywheel. The clutch I pulled from the donor car was a TYC/Valeo one, but it looked nearly new - the factory print on the clutch material was still visible, and it had at least 1.1mm of depth to the rivets (FSM says minimum is 0.3mm). I did not resurface the flywheel, but I don't see any problems with it.
 
#50 ·
Sounds like you may not be getting full engagement. But you would think that would be across all gears, especially first.
I would first try adjusting the push rod out a little farther by extending it. If that works, awesome.
If that doesn't work, I'd look into a rebuild.
 
#52 ·
I simply meant that when you have the clutch pedal on the floor, the clutch may not be fully disengaged, meaning it's still slipping a little bit which can cause grinding.

But since it's only in one gear, it's probably the syncro rings on gear 3.
 
#53 ·
I see. Well, I do get a bit of a grind into 4th sometimes, but rarely enough that I'm willing to attribute it to my lack of stick shift driving experience. With 3rd, however, it is quite apparent, and grinding gets worse and worse the higher the speed above 20mph.

1st, 2nd, 5th, and reverse all work just fine. So yea, looks like I've got my next big project handed to me. Might as well put in that LSD while I'm at it. :)

I'll start another thread on M/T rebuild another day - it's out of scope for this one - and would appreciate your opinions on the topic there. Thanks!
 
#54 ·
I helped my old shop teacher rebuild my trans a few years ago.

I would NOT suggest attempting this alone if you've never done it before. This is one of those things that it's worth paying someone else to take care of. As I said earlier, I think 3rd gear has a crazy syncro, it's three pieces and it's hard to get apart.
 
#55 ·
Drain the fluid and take a magnet to it to see if you find any metal particles. I'm not sure the metals used in the syncro's so they might not be magnetic actually...
 
#56 ·
Alright, so I went to install my M/T ECU today, only to get P1130 code within minutes... Turns out my M/T ECU is Cali emissions. My car is Fed. Fail on my part.

The question is, will the vehicle pass NY State Vehicle Inspection with error codes for shift solenoids? I read over the rules, and it is not a "safety" or "emissions" feature, so it should not matter. I will purchase a proper M/T ECU shortly, but it won't get here in time for me to pass inspection by the end of this month.

Anybody knows what kind of resistor I need to wire to the shift solenoids for the darn CEL to go off?
 
#57 ·
UPDATE: as I was poaching around the integration relay looking for some wires to cut into for clutch safety switch and cruise control switch, I noticed that my car is already pre-wired for those two - had connectors hanging out there unplugged.

So, if you have a 4th Gen 4Cyl LE Camry, you are likely to already have those two connectors there, making your switch much easier. All you have to do is wire reverse switch and that's all.

As for inspection, No, you cannot pass NY State inspection with any check engine light, no matter what it's for. You need either M/T ECU, or some beefy resistors.
 
#58 ·
im not sure if its the same on the 4th gen, but on the 3rd gen the automatic and manual transmission ECU's are different... You have to swap the under-dash harness because one of the plugs is different. the engine harness side plugs right in, but the underdash plug is different size

Also, you can get past the check engine light with resistors. Other people on this forum have made resistor blocks and they have worked.
 
#59 ·
Ahh, I didn't know that. I can confirm that for Gen4, the pinout is the same between A/T and M/T cars without immobilizer. Even Cali M/T ECU fit my Fed A/T car and it started and drove fine, aside from P1130 code for emissions and my lt fuel trims automatically being set to 25.

Like I said, it seems that the dash wire harness is the same for M/T and A/T 4cyl Gen4 Camry's, at least for CE and LE trims. I just plugged in the spare connectors into clutch pedal switches, and my car functions exactly like an M/T car should.

I even get "D" light on the dash when clutch pedal is up, and "R" when I go into reverse. Cruise Control works with clutch pedal up, and stops as soon as clutch is pressed.

Overall, driving a stick is turning out to be quite a lot of fun and a great learning experience. I kinda want to go for a drive every evening now...

As for inspection, all the shops are telling me that I cannot pass with CEL on, so I've ordered myself an M/T ECU for $49 shipped from eBay to remedy the problem.

Hope this info helps anyone undertaking this adventure in the future.
 
#60 ·
A couple questions slavie. 1 does the brake pedal just take pulling the pivot pin to swap in manual brake pedal? 2. Does the manual trans take a different mount than the auto trans?

Besides swapping the brake pedal, clutch pedal, master and slave cylinder, hard line and flex line for them, shifter, shifter cables, trans, flywheel and clutch oh and Mt ecu. Is there anything I'm missing?

Also more details about the double switch on the clutch- you mention some wires were already in the car? I want my cruise to work. Does the clutch just switch to ground? I looked at a gen 3 switch and there were 2 wire and one switch. Is this the same setup as the gen 4s?
 
#61 · (Edited)
Brake pedal mount is same - all you need is the pedal itself. It's connected via the bolt and a spring.

If you want everything to be per spec, you're missing the U-shaped support bracket for the center console armrest (it mounts behind the shifter), and make sure to get the mounting plates for the shifter cable to firewall. Also, don't forget that you need reverse switch connector to splice into your wiring. For Gen3, make sure the axles are same - I think they should be for 4cyl, but different for V6.

On the clutch pedal: lower switch is for the starter (has to be closed or no power to starter), and the upper one is purely for cruise control and to act as a pedal adjuster.

Hope this answers your question.

EDIT: Don't forget, you need the M/T tranny to engine bolts - the 4 main ones are longer than the A/T ones. Obviously the tranny mount is different, too, although the engine mounts are same (A/T ones are beefier, but same dimensions).
 
#64 ·
thanks again slavie! this is on my next to do list. the difficult part is finding a gen 4 stick car in the yard!

everytime i drive my car i think about how much better the car would drive if i could pick my own gear. :rockon:
 
#65 ·
A member PM'ed me with some questions regarding NSS, starting, and Cruise Control. I provided some worthwhile answers via PM so just copying things here for general public:

There are two independent sets of wires running through the NSS: one set connects the +12v to the starter, and the other set is responsible for the dash gear indicators, computer, and the cruise control.

To have your car start, you need the first set closed - these are the two noticeably bigger slots on the NSS connector. Splice these two, and your car will start no problem. Ideally, this needs to be wired to the clutch pedal lower switch so that it is closed when the clutch is pressed and the car is in "neutral".

The second set is responsible for the gears, and reverse lights in the case of reverse. You need to wire this one into permanent "D", and your cruise control should work just fine. (remember, cruise control only works at speeds above 25mph on these cars)

So, your car will be in neutral where you need it for starter, and drive where you want it for CC. Simultaneously. :) I hope this makes a bit more sense, but let me know otherwise.

There are 9 wires going to the NSS connector:

5 and 6 are the two bit fat connectors in the middle. These are for the starter and starter only. These do not connect to anything else. To have the car start, these two must be closed.

Of the remaining:
1: not used
2:red/blue stripe: +12v
3:blue: 2
4:yellow: L
7:green: P
8:red/black stripe: R
9:red: N
10:black/red-stripe: D

Connect 2 and 8, you got reverse; 2 and 10, and you have "D" on the dash and your cruise control work. Connect 2, 8, 10, you have "R" and "D" light up simultaneously on your car. :D

They're numbered sorta like this when looking at the connector plug:
1 2 3 4
5 6
7 8 9 10
Note: my car is 99 4cyl with Manual ECU. His/hers is 94 ES300 with the O/D lights flashing b/c he did not address the solenoid issue just yet. I suspect that CC doesn't work on his vehicle because those error codes.
 
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